New Helo Crash Video

[Nick Lappos]

Here is a video posted on rec.aviation.rotorcraft There are two sites to download it from:

My personal web site, where it is at:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/llappos/

in the file labeled cj_10966.wmv

Just right click on that file and download the video (830K), which is of a Sea King crash on a naval ship, marked as taken on 7/5/02


There is a public site some hard core ad material on that page, might upset the kiddies, and Dad, too, but it can be directly played from that site:

(offensive site removed, email me for its url)

I do not know where this took place, or what service. Anyone else know?

[Deeko01]

uh oh my friend I fear the next time I look at this thread it will say under your name "account removed"

So Long

Deeko01,

I note that Nick has placed the file at his web site, where it can be downloaded without viewing offensive material (unless you think Nick's photo is offensive, of course!)

Nick has removed the offensive site pointer, as well, thanks Nick.

The video is worth viewing IMHO


PedalStop, Rotorheads moderator

[SASless]

Nick,

I looked at all things listed there at least three times...found the other things to be informative, useful, and very well presented but the quality of the picture of the crash thing wasn't up to that of the others.....could it be the helicopter thing was done by amateurs or something. The subject matter of the other training films was definitely more stimulating and not as boring as the crash thing. Certainly more action to the others...the vertical hold mode on the SeaKing was much better than some of the other films...jerky at times on the others.

Now this does beg the question......was this a mistake ...(don't dare use the English vesion of that)...or I too will be banished to cyber purgatory by the moderator!

I don't think we want the answer to how you mangaged to find this site? I sure hope it wasn't a Sikorsky computer you were using while you surfed around looking for it....or else you too might get to discover the thrill of flogging 30,000 hour non-air conditioned 212's around very hot regions of the world in order to pay the mortgage!

But then.....you are a Cobra Pilot.....

[Lu Zuckerman]

As the helicopter turned to the right it looks as if the tail rotor was not turning at full speed. This may have been caused by the angle of the camera relative to the tail rotor or possibly strobe effect where at certain speeds an automobile wheel seems to be going backwards.

Just A guess.

:confused:

[GLSNightPilot]

I don't know how Nick found it, but a link to it was posted on rec.aviation.rotorcraft. I had trouble viewing it on my slow dialup connection, maybe I'll try Nick's & see if I can download the entire file to my HD.

[Nick Lappos]

GLSNightpilot

That link I first posted came from rec.aviation.rotorcraft but the page the link was on was full of dirty pictures, and poor Deeko01 got grossed out. That x-rated stuff stuff is on bus adverts where I grew up!;)

The film is of a Sea King in gray paint with large dark numbers 744 on the right side aft of the sliding door making a perfectly normal approach to a shipdeck in very calm seas. As he gets to the hover, a full right yaw trun develops, he loses control and the aircraft whacks the deck on its side, then tumbles off. Horrible stuff.

[Flight Safety]

Does anyone know what caused the sudden (and strong) right yaw to develop?

[SASless]

Nick,

Kinda reminds you of how quick things can happen when you least expect them. Pretty dramatic event....reminds one of the value of tandem rotor somehow. But, you want to talk about dramatic....imagine a tail rotor failure on a Chinook !!! Change the scenario to night, bad weather, cold rough seas, rain pelting down,high winds ....and the nearest SAR bird three to four hours away! Oh, why didn't I pay more attention to the guy who said go fixed wing young man?

[Flight Safety]

Later...

I looked at the video several times, and it appears that the tail rotor visibly "spun down" from time index 14:15:12 to 14:15:13 (when the tail rotor goes out of view to the right). There's only a few frames to see this, but that's how it appears to me. Perhaps a broken TR trans or TR shaft coupling maybe. Since hover has a high power requirement, the TR would also have a high torque requirement at hover, thus an understandable time for failure.

Very tragic looking stuff.

One thought (and I hope a useful question). In the video, the rotation rate of the fuselage continues to accelerate to the right, even after it has first contacted the flight deck. This suggests that power (and torque) is still being applied to the MR after the yaw to the right has started. If you were in this situation, wouldn't you want to lower the collective fully immediately, and then take your chances touching down on the flight deck with a decreasing yaw rate?

I'm not saying anything against the pilots, who were in an extremely difficult situation. But the video makes it clear that the right yaw was in a constant state of accelerating rate for about 5 seconds after the event started (from 14:15:11 until 14:15:16), until just before the second impact with the flight deck, when the yaw rate begins to slow again.

[SASless]

Flight Safety,

Being Navy Pilots, the Plane Commander probably called for the checklist and the Co was trying to dig the Natops gouge out from under the box lunches. Also....the distance from from where your hands are resting to the overhead throttles can sometimes be farther than your arms can reach!

From your analysis of the tape....how long did it take for the aircraft to yaw 90 degrees from its approach heading? It sure doesn't look very long at all....which means there wasn't time for a Chinese Parliment to decide what to do. At that point...it would be an interesting proposition to lower the collective and make contact with the deck of a moving ship....control the aircraft and remain upright onboard the vessel.

My thought, while sitting here with a Dew in my hand, would be to maintain collective....chop throttles....hope the rotation at least slowed....get the old girl clear of the ship and over the water....and hope Mr. Sikorsky remembered how to make a boat fly or in this case the opposite....make an aircraft that would float. It is one thing to hit the water then roll over...but to hit the deck, roll over ,and then crash into the water as happened is not something I ever care to see again....much less do. It would be interesting to know if anyone survived that crash. If they did.....I want them to start buying my lotto tickets for me!

[Flight Safety]

SASless,

Please understand that I'm not casting any aspersions on the pilots. The circumstances were grim, and their options were extremely limited.

I only asked the previous question to see if there was anything useful that could be learned from the accident, and to see if perhaps there was any way out for the flight crew that others could benefit from.

BTW, the helo yawed the first 90 degrees somewhere between 2 and 3 seconds after the event started. The second 90 degrees took about 2 seconds, then the next 180 degrees took another 2 seconds. It was a rapidly accelerating yaw until about the second impact when the MR also hit the flight deck.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

SASless, chopping the throttles is a good theory, but in reality when losing your TR (even more so at that very low height) you barely have time to think what the f.... and you are hitting the ground.

I hope those guys got out - a terrible thing to have to watch.

[Flight Safety]

I got this idea from a discussion on another thread...

Maybe a procedure change could help in a TR loss situation like this one. What if the pilot entered the hover a little farther behind the ship, then slowly hovered into position over the fight deck. This way, the power (and torque) spike that occurs when entering hover would happen over the water and not over the flight deck. If the TR failed during entry into the hover (during the torque spike), at least you could set it down in the water just behind the ship.

I'm not really familiar with helo operations at sea, so this procedure might run into ground effect problems with half the MR over the deck and half over the water, as the helo slowly hovered to the landing area over the flight deck. Also, does the ship captain try to steer the ship in a way that creates a low wind situation over the flight deck during helo recovery? If so, that would greatly help to make this procedure work.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Good point. In my (very) limited ship ops, it was sop to come to the hover at about the 7/8 o'clock possie (at a comfy distance), then slide in over the deck and come straight down.

Any Navy-types want to expand???

[Harpooner]

We do exactly as stated above, for various reasons all of which are summarised by the phrase 'not on my bloody boat!' What it means is have your problems at the end of the app off the back deck, if you lose a donkey or the tail rotor you have a choice of swimming or making it onto the spot if it's only an engine out, but at least you have the choice. we all know things rarely fail in the cruise, life would be too easy for a rotary pilot otherwise.

Oh, and overshoots/rejects/go-arounds etc are easier if the screen isn't full of dark gray metal in front of you!

[Barannfin]

So when doing ship ops. what kind of apprch. do you do? I imagine it is nothing dramatic because of no obstructions and such. Also how far out from the flight deck to you terminate your apprch.? Aaand one last thing, are there any sort of aids for doing low vis/night apprchs?

[John Eacott]

It's been a while, but SOP for shipboard approaches was to come to the hover adjacent to the spot on the port side, then transition across, hover over the spot, then land. Standard for both small ships and carriers, this gave a hover power check prior to moving sideways over the deck.

USN SOPS were/are quite different, with a straight in approach over the back end of the boat. They also differ in their Planeguard ops: RN would hover off the port quarter for recoveries, and alongside the cat for launches, where they would also check over the stovie prior to launch. USN put their planeguard (helo) in an orbit off the starboard quarter for launch and recoveries. Returning RN helos would also sit in the port wait outboard of the planeguard during FW ops, prior to recovery. Ark Royal became the exception to this when 6 spot was relocated to the extension aft of the island, and it became more convenient to put us in the starboard wait (still a hover, Flyco couldn't abide helicopters orbiting :rolleyes: ) sucking in stackgas for 15 - 30 minutes.

Not too sure what current policy is with TDC's now that the Shar is in the equation, although I vaguely recall seeing them follow a similar pattern to the helicopters.

[wde]

After a decade of flying BK's and now the S76, I have often wondered why it is not common practice to have the Non flying pilot put his hands at the throttle quadrant, ready to pull throttles if the need arose, during final approach. I realize this would be a defined departure from SOP's regarding helo ops, short final, with the NFP calling Q's and Temps, but in the event of a short final catastrophic failure, at least his/her hands are at the ready to chop throttles at the flying pilot's command. Of course, there are inherent "dangers" in doing this, but maybe trainig could resolve some of the concerns. Perhaps once the FP has called LDP or committed, then the hands would go to the ready position....

FW (I shudder to bring them into the equation) 'hold' hands during take-off roll until Vr...so perhaps something could be brought into the equation for RWops...just a thought, and looking for feedback.

I get shivers each time I look at this video; the rate of rotation sure seems to accelerate through 90-270 degrees....

[SASless]

The crux of the issue is not what spot to take up a hover over...or what kind of approach to make....there shall always be that "worse possible moment" Mrs. Murphey's baby boy knows so well....and that seems to be when all these kinds of things seem to happen .....and again....we begin to see several right answers to the question....be it next to the 6 spot.....aft of the dull end...starboard side....port side. Having a set of hands upon the engine levers, speed selects....whatever they are called seems a wise move....since Mr. Sikorsky likes the lever method vice motorcycle throttle method....whatever method that works to get you to the lowest, softest, dryest, cheapest thing to hit in the most controlled manner would work for me.

As I opined in my previous post....all that thinking was being done with my cold Mountain Dew in my mitt....butt safely sat before the computer....and lots of time to watch that video.....and to repeat...I am so glad it was them and not me! A very sobering video! In a situation like that.....I agree...things happen in very quick speed....hope I never experience that. But that being said, if you "What If ?" game play it....followed by the "What would I do ?" game.....in real life you might have a quicker response time than if you omit the first two steps. Every situation is different...thus every reaction will be different.

[John Eacott]

SASless said in an earlier post:

"My thought, while sitting here with a Dew in my hand, would be to maintain collective....chop throttles....hope the rotation at least slowed....get the old girl clear of the ship and over the water"

ISTM from the video that there was some sort of uncommanded yaw, as a result of a possible loss of tail rotor drive, or tail rotor authority. Chopping the throttles would have been nice, but I'd say that almost the only move available to the pilot flying in the time that he had available was to dump the collective and ride it down.

Accepting that if the pilot not flying had his hands on the speed selects and was able to chop them immediately, allowing no delay in the cockpit for making such a decision, SASless' idea could work. I suspect that it would be a long shot, however, compared to an immediate lever dump by the pilot.

The approach procedure then becomes relevant, since a hover alongside prior to a move over the deck, gives the opportunity to make a semi controlled ditching, as opposed to the crash and burn on deck shown in the video.

[Nigel Osborn]

As John said, in the S61 the non flying pilot had his hands on the throttles for take off and landing in order to maintain rotor rpm as power was applied and to slam it forward if one engine failed. In a tail rotor drive failure case, he would be in the right position to pull back the throttles as the flying pilot's voice increased by 6 octaves in pitch as hopefully he dumped the collective.

In the simulator at FSI, after a couple of goes, it was very easy to handle a TR drive failure on take off or landing if you yelled at the NFP to pull back immediately a sharp yaw occured. Obviously in the simulator you are expecting a failure of some sort every minute unlike real life.

SASless point of throttle positions is valid. A few years ago I was approaching in a Bell 206 with fixed floats to land on a trolley. As I came to the hover, I wanted to turn 90 degrees to the right, so as my foot started to press the pedal, the TR drive gave way. I slammed the throttle shut, rotated 90 degrees, lowered collective and made an impressively quick landing which would have been unlikely in a AS350.:D

[OldDuffer]

It was in fact a USN H3 (Sea King) with 7 personnel on board and they all survived with the worst injury being a broken wrist.

[What-ho Squiffy!]

That is good news Duffer. They are lucky Hombre's.

[Barannfin]

Good to hear they all made it out. lucky group of guys :eek:

[Flight Safety]

If you watch the video very closely, you can see that the flight deck is elevated from the stern deck area (watch the helo's shadow closely to see this). When the helo went over on the left of the flight deck, it fell off of the flight deck and landed on the ship below. The flames originate from below and graze the side of the flight deck.

For all to have survived with only minor injuries speaks volumes about the way Sikorsky builds their helos.

[GLSNightPilot]

I've never landed on a navy ship, but I've done it uncounted times on seismic boats & supertankers, in a variety of aircraft. I've also landed on many drilling rigs under tow. The last few years I've been doing it mostly at night, in BH412's & SK76's. My technique is to make a very slow approach, on the steep side of normal, which gives me time to look at all the junk sticking up in the way. I usually see most of it. I don't conciously come to a hover off the side, but I sometimes do while looking for obstructions. IME, the ship's captain never steers in any direction favorable to the helicopter. If he can get you to make a downwind approach, he will. I once made 2 tries, & told the captain he had to turn the ship. He said he couldn't, I said goodbye, & he said "Give me 3 minutes". I've had them turn while I was aboard, so that I had a tailwind when I picked it up. In short, landing on ships is difficult at best, but I'd think nothing about landing on something as big as a carrier steaming into the wind. Piece of cake.

[Larry]

This is only a guess on whos H-3 this is.

Im gonna say HC-2 and the crash happened in the Persion Gulf.

I think this because of the calmness of the seas and the fact that HC-2 is the only SH-3 unit operating in the Gulf. Also the number 744 on the side might be a HC-2 bird. Also ,HC-2 flies to ships all the time.

This is only a guess.

The only other unit would be HC-85 , but they are in San Diego.