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ShotOne
11th Feb 2018, 18:04
Todays news featured politicians and journalists struggling to out-outrage each other over the reports that some Oxfam staff used prostitutes in Haiti in 2011. Apparently Oxfam have demonstrated a disgraceful lack of moral leadership. Perhaps so But I can’t help contrasting the total lack of outrage at millions starving and dying of preventable diseases with today’s puffed-up moral high-horsemanship

ExXB
11th Feb 2018, 18:09
It is the oldest profession and will be with us always. Get over it.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Feb 2018, 18:31
From elsewhere, paraphrased (because I CBA to look up the exact wording):


"I wonder why the right-wing media have suddenly dredged up and jumped on this eight year old story? What real, today's, news are they trying to distract attention from?"

Pontius Navigator
11th Feb 2018, 18:37
GTW, not even 8 years now new, I am sure I heard about this earlier, can't remember if it was days or weeks.

WingNut60
11th Feb 2018, 18:49
When your only access to food and medicine is to sell something and the only thing you have to sell is yourself then someone is going to see a bargain.

Oxfam staff (if they were indeed involved) would have been only one group of many from the multiple aid organisations which flock to every disaster and inevitably end up engaged in these activities.

Devoid of morality? Absolutely.
Rare? Absolutely not.

Haiti? I do hope that they had prophylactics in their medicine chest.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Feb 2018, 18:49
GTW, not even 8 years now new, I am sure I heard about this earlier, can't remember if it was days or weeks.
I certainly heard about it several years ago (but can't say whether it was eight or fewer).

MG23
11th Feb 2018, 19:03
I read a book a few years ago by a journalist who spent a few months travelling through Africa from north to south. He said the local prostitutes all celebrated when the 'aid agencies' turned up in town, because they knew they'd be making a ton of money in the next few weeks.

Just another reason I refuse to give money to big charities these days.

Edit: I've seen others complain that, because of all the aid workers in Africa on expense accounts, many people believe any white person they see is just as rich, and will charge them several times the local rate for whatever they're buying.

ImageGear
11th Feb 2018, 19:11
After a discussion with an ex-employee of a major charity (and my ex-boss) I vowed never to give any of them another cent, and I didn't. Trotters in the trough at the highest level.

IG

ZFT
11th Feb 2018, 19:37
After a discussion with an ex-employee of a major charity (and my ex-boss) I vowed never to give any of them another cent, and I didn't. Trotters in the trough at the highest level.

IG

Indeed and good company for the politicians and most of the journalists too.

cargosales
11th Feb 2018, 19:56
It is the oldest profession and will be with us always. Get over it.

Sorry, incorrect. It's the second.

As explained to me by a female sales trainer .. first she had to sell herself, then they could do the deed.

But I concur, provided it was legal and there was no coercion or whatever, and it wasn't billed to their expenses, then those taking the moral high ground should just get over themselves and accept that people have needs and will take steps to satisfy those. Especially when they're posted to the arse end of nowhere for years and 'confined to barracks' every night because it's not safe to go out on the town.

My 2p worth

ShotOne
11th Feb 2018, 20:08
"I vowed never to give any of them another cent". Really.? Care to expand on that; so it's ok for hundreds of thousands to starve to death just as long as no westerners have sex with them? Does the same go for every agency; do we strip the police or army of funding if it turns out any of their personnel have used prostitutes at some point?

Andy_S
11th Feb 2018, 21:41
I think the issue is bigger than some individual Oxfam employees dipping their wick in the local populace.

It's also about Oxfam's integrity. How honest and transparent they were about what was going on. And about how they allowed some of the perpetrators to resign (ad walk straight into other jobs).

So yes, accusations of a lack of moral leadership are quite valid.

racedo
11th Feb 2018, 21:42
HRC Pay to play was a requirement for aid agencies in Haiti.

krismiler
11th Feb 2018, 22:25
Similar thing with the UN a few years back as well in the Congo as well as Haiti. Man who is away from home, horny and fantastically wealthy by local standards meets girl who is very poor by his standards and who sees nothing wrong with using her body to improve her life.

As long as it is consensual and involves adults who cares ? Some of the girls end up converting the arrangement into long term or even marriage.

Where there is coercion or children are involved action needs to be taken however these agencies and government bodies make the Catholic church look like amateurs when it comes to covering up and protecting their own.

Tankertrashnav
12th Feb 2018, 00:00
The only outrage I felt was when the BBC1 news bulletin this evening had as its lead story more on this matter, most of which had already been covered in the previous 24 hours. The Moscow air crash which killed 71 people was relegated to second slot. Still, as I suppose as few of the dead spoke English that made it all right! :*

MG23
12th Feb 2018, 01:25
Care to expand on that; so it's ok for hundreds of thousands to starve to death just as long as no westerners have sex with them?

Many of these charities only seem to exist to take money from well-meaning poor people in the West to fund the middle class to have nice jollies to the Third World. The classic example is the 'well building' trip, where rich white kids go to Africa to build wells, because they apparently believe black people are unable to build wells themselves.

Just this afternoon, I was reading a bunch of posts from someone who drove across the Congo for grins. At one point, they came across a dirt road in the middle of nowhere, which their wheels turned into a rutted dirt track as soon as they drove over it. Apparently a few years earlier, a charity had gone there to build roads, but they hadn't bothered to pack the dirt down, so they were rapidly reverting to nature.

And, of course, hardly anyone had any vehicles there, anyway. Which is why they were the first people to tear it up by driving along it.

Complete and utter waste of time and money, except for the charity workers who got paid to go out there and do it, then virtue-signal to their friends when they got back. And the managers who presumably got paid a fat salary for managing it.

WingNut60
12th Feb 2018, 03:48
Many of these charities only seem to exist to take money from well-meaning poor people in the West to fund the middle class to have nice jollies to the Third World....

Poor people in rich countries giving money to rich people in poor countries.

As quoted above.

jolihokistix
12th Feb 2018, 03:56
If it's money from their own wages, then surely that is their choice to spend it how they like. Is prostitution illegal in Haiti, or is there some clause in their contract against using prostitutes? Not my cup of tea, personally, but I read the whole BBC article wondering what they had done wrong. Mystified.
Came to the conclusion there must be more behind the scenes that has not been reported.

meadowrun
12th Feb 2018, 05:21
I have become very jaded about big charity.
They get too big over a period of time and they get into "executive culture", where they forget just what their mandate should be and think they need to pay top salaries, inline with the business world, to retain mediocre talent.


I refrain from contributing to any charity with any religion in their name because as far as I am concerned much of the problem being "aided" by them is caused by them and aid to them is just another way of "spreading the word".

sitigeltfel
12th Feb 2018, 05:44
If it's money from their own wages, then surely that is their choice to spend it how they like.

Maybe the people who donate the money to pay their wages should add a caveat to their bequests.

"Not to be used to pay for sex with distressed and vulnerable underage humanitarian crisis victims".

:rolleyes:

ShotOne
12th Feb 2018, 06:02
So what if we find a soldier, police officer or bin-man has used a prostitute at some point? Can we stop paying tax?

treadigraph
12th Feb 2018, 07:46
So what if we find a soldier, police officer or bin-man has used a prostitute at some point? Can we stop paying tax?

I think you really should have included politicians in that list! ;)

Andy_S
12th Feb 2018, 08:11
Man who is away from home, horny and fantastically wealthy by local standards meets girl who is very poor by his standards and who sees nothing wrong with using her body to improve her life.

You make it sound like a lifestyle choice rather than one borne out of desperation. I simply can’t believe the number of people here who are blithely condoning the exploitation of vulnerable young women by the very people who are supposed to be helping them.

WingNut60
12th Feb 2018, 09:02
You make it sound like a lifestyle choice rather than one borne out of desperation. I simply can’t believe the number of people here who are blithely condoning the exploitation of vulnerable young women by the very people who are supposed to be helping them.

Quite correct. They should have just given whatever they paid for services to the girls with a glad heart and no services.
That's the moral high-ground.

But it ain't gonna happen.
And if, per chance, it did happen, it would not mean that the girls could then just go home to their children that night.

I am not trying to be facetious. Nor am I condoning anything. It's just how it is.

PDR1
12th Feb 2018, 09:08
You make it sound like a lifestyle choice rather than one borne out of desperation. I simply can’t believe the number of people here who are blithely condoning the exploitation of vulnerable young women by the very people who are supposed to be helping them.

Absolutely agree. I am deeply shocked by the views expressed in this thread. I always assumed Bartle Frere was a unique case, or at most one of a very small group. I'm now getting the impression that a significant proportion of the professional pilot community are cut from the same cloth.

PDR

Krystal n chips
12th Feb 2018, 09:18
From elsewhere, paraphrased (because I CBA to look up the exact wording):


"I wonder why the right-wing media have suddenly dredged up and jumped on this eight year old story? What real, today's, news are they trying to distract attention from?"

That's probably far more to the point than the allegations made concerning Oxfam.

Foreign Aid, in whatever context, has always been high on the list for the right wing media when it comes to "saving money for the UK " and £34m would be useful. Given the allegations, Oxfam makes an easy target to generate their readers outrage at this " scandalous waste of money!" c/o Mail / Excess / Torygraph headlines ad infinitum

Brexit ?...tenuous, but feasible connection given how dirty the politics have become.

Then there's the possibility of some sort of "revenge ".....after all, a certain Minister recently got booted out for doing a bit of freelancing so to speak and who knows how many vested interests felt thwarted at potential and undisclosed deals that were scuppered by her untimely departure.

Whatever the reasons, you can bet that behind the scenes, they've got very little to do with the conveniently regurgitated allegations directed at Oxfam.

Why does the UK spend so much on foreign aid? | The Week UK (http://www.theweek.co.uk/63394/why-does-the-uk-spend-so-much-on-foreign-aid)

The best bit however, is the suitably hypocritical and pious outrage from a Gov't Minister about "moral leadership" coming as does from a Gov't hardly exhibiting even a scintilla of such to the electorate.

Gertrude the Wombat
12th Feb 2018, 13:36
£34m would be useful
Gosh, 50p each. That's going to be a real distraction from the £3,000 #brexit is supposed to have cost each of us so far, not.

ShotOne
12th Feb 2018, 13:53
Full marks to Krystal for somehow working in a lefty party-political angle on this. And even more implausibly to Gertrude for linking it to Brexit. Seriously?? Not read any right-wing rags lately Krystal but it was #1 headline in Guardian. But you probably knew that. Seeing as you’re getting political it’s worth observing that being filmed with two east-European rent boys hasn’t stopped Mr Vaz drawing his salary

artschool
12th Feb 2018, 14:04
I wonder whether more money was distributed to the community via prostitution or with food stamps?

Krystal n chips
12th Feb 2018, 14:28
Full marks to Krystal for somehow working in a lefty party-political angle on this. And even more implausibly to Gertrude for linking it to Brexit. Seriously?? Not read any right-wing rags lately Krystal but it was #1 headline in Guardian. But you probably knew that. Seeing as you’re getting political it’s worth observing that being filmed with two east-European rent boys hasn’t stopped Mr Vaz drawing his salary

Thank you for the fulsome praise, alas, in this case not relevant.

And yes, I did read the headlines in the Guardian, difficult to miss really.

However, it clearly doesn't strike you as strange, that, at a time when UK politics are, to put it mildly, in a state of turmoil, that suddenly this revelation occurs, in the right wing media, when it had already been reported on some years ago.

Of course, there may well not be any form of political agenda here, the whole sorry mess could simply be dismissed as "being in the public interest " and thus newsworthy.

That said, why choose now given the current perilous state of the UK economy, the stagnation and escalating costs of Brexit, the internal struggles of the Tory party and lack of leadership from the soon to be redundant PM, to generate an outrage against a relatively soft target, Oxfam, other than as some form of diversion as has been suggested before.

Taking anything suspicious at face value is never a good idea, taking current UK politics at face value is tantamount to believing in flying pigs and other sundry fables.

You will, I'm sure, being so astute in these matters, recall the immortal words about " a good day to bury bad news " and even if you don't bury the news, anything that acts as a distraction in lieu comes in useful ( see JRM Bristol passim ) for example.

Anyway, in case you missed it although it's always nice to read comments from other Guardian readers such as yourself, here's the latest in this saga.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/haiti-demands-oxfam-identify-workers-who-used-prostitutes

The more you read, well I do, the more you begin to wonder just what (and why) has prompted this exposure......

krismiler
12th Feb 2018, 14:49
You make it sound like a lifestyle choice rather than one borne out of desperation. I simply can’t believe the number of people here who are blithely condoning the exploitation of vulnerable young women by the very people who are supposed to be helping them.

I was in Africa in the 1990s working for an aid agency so I know a bit about what goes on. The girls were quite happy to get dolled up and hang around the bars looking for men, we were were practically fending them off with sticks. A white man was a great catch and many of them would do it for free. Those that wanted payment could make more in a night than they would in a month in a normal job and had no qualms about it at all.

Some got taken on holidays abroad, I know one who had a house bought for her after being a “companion” for a couple of years.

Many men who would not normally have considered it went over the side after a couple of months in country. An exotic beauty making eyes at them in a bar was a bit too much for some of them.

annakm
12th Feb 2018, 15:04
I have become very jaded about big charity.
They get too big over a period of time and they get into "executive culture", where they forget just what their mandate should be and think they need to pay top salaries, inline with the business world, to retain mediocre talent.


I refrain from contributing to any charity with any religion in their name because as far as I am concerned much of the problem being "aided" by them is caused by them and aid to them is just another way of "spreading the word".

And have you ever noticed with any of the religious charity groups that the first thing they build in an underprivileged region is a church?! Their first priority is still religion before humanitarianism.

ShotOne
12th Feb 2018, 15:17
“Much of the problem being aided by them is caused by them..”? So Oxfam caused the Haitian earthquake?? And they haven’t built any chuches.

N707ZS
12th Feb 2018, 15:20
Must be a greater risk of catching STIs in these country's, a nice present to bring home to there wives!

ShotOne
12th Feb 2018, 15:46
To come back to Keith Vaz for a moment, surely he should have been sacked and his party leader forced to resign, as Oxfam’s just has; come to that, the party stripped of funding too...or do MPs work to a lesser moral yardstick to aid workers?

What would the poor Haitians make of all this? I can’t believe this is even on the list of anyone there’s top hundred life problems

ExXB
12th Feb 2018, 15:49
Was this Oxfam's money being spent on local goods and services? If not, then what the hell is this discussion about? The income I earned from my employer and indeed my pension is mine. It isn't the company's.

Would it be a problem if they had met a young lady in the bar, wined her and dined her, took her to the shops and bought her nice earrings and was invited back to her place?

Had they broken local law (I don't know if they did) then they should suffer the consequences of that. But to blame their employer ...

The world is mad, absolutely freaking mad.

Pontius Navigator
12th Feb 2018, 16:06
You make it sound like a lifestyle choice rather than one borne out of desperation. I simply can’t believe the number of people here who are blithely condoning the exploitation of vulnerable young women by the very people who are supposed to be helping them.

Well phrased. Quite agree. In contrast the dolly birds in F1 etc are in entirely a different sphere.

BehindBlueEyes
12th Feb 2018, 19:52
And they haven’t built any chuches.

Oxfam wouldn’t have built any churches anyway because they are, according to their website:


“...an independent development organisation and carry out our work free from party-political or religious agendas. We have no membership or affiliation to any political party or religion. Learn more about our Welfare Religious and Partisan Political Activities Policy“

I thought this was rather appropriate though:

Just £30 per month can provide an aid worker with access to clean prostitutes, claim Oxfam (http://newsthump.com/2018/02/11/just-30-per-month-can-provide-an-aid-worker-with-access-to-clean-prostitutes-claim-oxfam/)

ZeBedie
12th Feb 2018, 20:13
I think some people are missing the point here - this is not about prostitution, it's about the infiltration of overseas aid organisations by predatory peadophiles.

andytug
12th Feb 2018, 21:35
Place your bets on how long before cuts announced in the overseas aid budget.

racedo
12th Feb 2018, 22:22
I refrain from contributing to any charity with any religion in their name because as far as I am concerned much of the problem being "aided" by them is caused by them and aid to them is just another way of "spreading the word".

4-5 years ago after a bad cyclone in the phillipines we had a chance to do something. After some investigating we found out that fishing fleet which many had depended on had been wiped out. We collected enough for 2 fishing boats and ensured the money was remitted to local priest in the area who ensured they were bought and helped people get back on their feet. Along with other direct donations I believe 80% of the local fishing boats were replaced.

artschool
12th Feb 2018, 22:47
Place your bets on how long before cuts announced in the overseas aid budget.

might be correct. why else recycle an old news story :D

sitigeltfel
13th Feb 2018, 06:35
"11,000 people giving £2 a month might not save a dying little baby, but would exactly pay the £264,000 per year salary of Neil Kinnock’s daughter-in-law Helle Thorning-Schmidt, Chief Executive of Save the Children and wife of MP Stephen Kinnock. Misery for some is a goldmine for others."

http://investorplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/pigs-at-trough-ceos-630.jpg

Andy_S
13th Feb 2018, 07:07
Was this Oxfam's money being spent on local goods and services? If not, then what the hell is this discussion about? The income I earned from my employer and indeed my pension is mine. It isn't the company's.

You completely miss the point.

Young women were being exploited. And more to the point they were being exploited by the very people who were supposed to ensure that they didn’t have to resort to measures such as prostitution.

I’m gobsmacked that anyone could think that what went on in Haiti was in any way justifiable.

G-CPTN
13th Feb 2018, 09:25
Was Oxfam responsible for 'creating' the market for prostitution - or was it a pre-existing market?

Dan_Brown
13th Feb 2018, 09:25
Years ago I was employed in Africa. We had a lot of dealings with NGO,s. Early on i had proof the wrong people for wrong reasons were employed by the aid outfits. Not all of them of course. Gold, money or sexual favours were offered and accepted for a fast track for visa,s and other things.it used to make my skin cruel.

Krystal n chips
13th Feb 2018, 11:29
Anybody else watch the interviews on C4 News last night ?...

Revelatory to say the least and it would appear that Oxfam management were upholding the" finest traditions" of UK management in many respects.

This article however sheds some more light as to possibly why Oxfam have been targeted despite the now emerging reports concerning other agencies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/13/oxfam-sex-scandal-culture-war-foreign-aid-charity-priti-patel-rees-mogg

I would dispute the right wing media conspiracy, as such, so lets call it a combined effort and pooling of resources.

NutLoose
13th Feb 2018, 11:49
I do find it all rather perplexing, if these people have done wrong then by all means take action against them, but to consider cutting the aid that is donated to these charities as a threat to hang over them is not hitting those that have allegedly done wrong, but those in need and at the bottom of the foodchain. There is only one I have donated to and that is Mary's meals.


..

ATNotts
13th Feb 2018, 12:08
Been watching this story unfold over the weekend, whilst away (from a keyboard).

Like many here, I'm actually wondering what exactly these people have actually done wrong. I am assuming that they were "off duty" at the time, and spending their hard earned cash (and I'm sure it will have been hard earned) as they wished. The media has painted the women (I imagine they were women) as "victims" but my understanding of prostitution is that they offer their services, people accept that offer, and money changes hands for services rendered.

HOWEVER if prostitution was / is illegal in Haiti, then they will have committed an offence, for which they should have been prosecuted. If the women / men concerned were under age (as I believe I heard NOS news in The Netherlands say - my understanding of the Dutch language is limited) then there's much more cause for outrage, and a requirement for urgent action to be taken.

But other than that it looks to me as though the UK media's current obsession with all things relating to sexual behaviour, and a certain puritanical viewpoint which the UK media takes has turned a small story into something much bigger.

And putting this story ahead of 71 people losing their lives in Moscow, as BBC News chose to, is frankly nonsensical.

Highway1
13th Feb 2018, 13:10
Anybody else watch the interviews on C4 News last night ?...

Revelatory to say the least and it would appear that Oxfam management were upholding the" finest traditions" of UK management in many respects.

This article however sheds some more light as to possibly why Oxfam have been targeted despite the now emerging reports concerning other agencies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/13/oxfam-sex-scandal-culture-war-foreign-aid-charity-priti-patel-rees-mogg

I would dispute the right wing media conspiracy, as such, so lets call it a combined effort and pooling of resources.


You seem desperate to change the subject to Brexit and stop people discussing this - any particular reason?

Highway1
13th Feb 2018, 13:13
But other than that it looks to me as though the UK media's current obsession with all things relating to sexual behaviour, and a certain puritanical viewpoint which the UK media takes has turned a small story into something much bigger.


I agree it is all getting out of hand - I'm more offended by the revelation that Mrs Kinnock gets £260,000 a year.

Bergerie1
13th Feb 2018, 13:30
And what about this enormous salary? Too much greed around.

PFA under pressure to address CEO Gordon Taylor's 'absolutely scandalous' £2.3m salary and bonus (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/02/12/pfa-pressure-address-ceo-gordon-taylorsabsolutely-scandalous/)

Highway1
13th Feb 2018, 13:42
And what about this enormous salary? Too much greed around.

PFA under pressure to address CEO Gordon Taylor's 'absolutely scandalous' £2.3m salary and bonus (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/02/12/pfa-pressure-address-ceo-gordon-taylorsabsolutely-scandalous/)

Surely what a Union Leader is paid is up to the members of that Union?. Why should anyone else have any input?

GKOC41
13th Feb 2018, 14:41
I must be naive but I was more disappointed that the Chiefs had hold up in a villa with a pool - I sort of thought it would be a Hotel or some portacabins. Big waste of Oxfam money?

ATNotts
13th Feb 2018, 17:00
I must be naive but I was more disappointed that the Chiefs had hold up in a villa with a pool - I sort of thought it would be a Hotel or some portacabins. Big waste of Oxfam money?

Very good point.

Personally I won't give to Oxfam, Save The Children or Christian Aid - all of them have far too high overheads, and operate more like multinational businesses than charities. Nothing to do with these "scandals".

For me it's smaller charities, or ones I might need in my life - e.g. Cancer Research, RNLI, Air Ambulance etc. Selfish? Probably. Practical? Certainly.

ethicalconundrum
13th Feb 2018, 17:13
You make it sound like a lifestyle choice rather than one borne out of desperation. I simply can’t believe the number of people here who are blithely condoning the exploitation of vulnerable young women by the very people who are supposed to be helping them.

The alternative is to NOT make use of the local prostitutes and deprive them of desperately needed income. Taken to the natural economic conclusion, using moral standards to outlaw and restrict prostitution means starvation and death to some who are in the direst of circumstance.

Which thematically leads back to the west's obligation to provide aid and charity to those less fortunate. Prove to me that my aid has gotten from my hands, to those women in dire condition, and not some third-world potentate, goon, or dictator and I'll pony up again. Until that proffer, I'll decide how to spend my aid/hooker money - thank you very much.

ShotOne
13th Feb 2018, 17:53
Interesting what DIDN’T Make any headlines was what should have been the huge scandal of Uganda’s non-existent refugees. Over many years Uganda have been receiving very large sums for refugees, who’s numbers it turns out were grossly overstated. Not only that but some of the actual refugees were forced to pay for basic needs. Unfortunately for them this (non) story didn’t have the word “sex” in the headline

Tech Guy
13th Feb 2018, 19:34
For me it's smaller charities, or ones I might need in my life - e.g. Cancer Research, RNLI, Air Ambulance etc. Selfish? Probably. Practical? Certainly.

Indeed. As someone who spends time afloat and rides a motorcycle, RNLI and Air Ambulances are at the top of my list for any donations.

Curious Pax
13th Feb 2018, 20:05
Indeed. As someone who rides a motorcycle.

Thanks in advance for your donation!

tezzer
13th Feb 2018, 20:31
It's a thought..........

ORAC
13th Feb 2018, 21:02
Surely what a Union Leader is paid is up to the members of that Union?. Why should anyone else have any input? For a Union where a lot of the members earn between £100K to £300K a week paying the union president only £50K a week seems pretty cheapskate.....

krismiler
13th Feb 2018, 23:05
During WW2, thousands of American troops were stationed in the UK. They were very popular with British girls as they had more money than British men and had access to luxuries such as chocolate, cigarettes and nylon stockings.

Members of the UK forces serving abroad were concerned about rich yanks messing around with their women.

Older PPruners may remember the phrase “Over paid, over sexed and over here.”

ethicalconundrum
14th Feb 2018, 00:04
Strangely enough, my favorite hookers are the Germans. No - they aren't very cuddly, or playful, but damned if they aren't very skilled. Maybe they take trade courses? I don't know. All I know is when I left, I was one satisfied customer. Always considered I was given my money's worth.

WingNut60
14th Feb 2018, 03:38
And now, to cap it off, being reported by the Guardian :

Chair of Oxfam International arrested on corruption charges

The chairman of the board of Oxfam International, Juan Alberto Fuentes, has been arrested in Guatemala on allegations of corruption during his time as a government minister.

jolihokistix
14th Feb 2018, 03:42
As the details of what they were up to start to surface in the media, I can now begin to understand the outrage. Sex was demanded, sometimes from minors, for the promise or hint of jobs or elevation within or without the Oxfam organization. This is something else again, and not simply prostitution.


What was reported at the beginning just sounded like any army or navy around the world, contributing to the local economy.

ATNotts
14th Feb 2018, 07:39
As the details of what they were up to start to surface in the media, I can now begin to understand the outrage. Sex was demanded, sometimes from minors, for the promise or hint of jobs or elevation within or without the Oxfam organization. This is something else again, and not simply prostitution.


What was reported at the beginning just sounded like any army or navy around the world, contributing to the local economy.

If that turns out to be the case, then Oxfam (and their employees, current and former) need the book thrown at them.

Rather depends, I suppose, whether the media is doing what it is prone to, that is, over-egging the pudding and putting 2+2 together and getting a number other than 4. Or (rather less likely) reporting FACTS.

CargoMatatu
14th Feb 2018, 07:44
Like ATNotts said :ok:

Pontius Navigator
14th Feb 2018, 08:43
Remember, in post-war Germany women would offer sex for food or cigarettes, the latter probably better currency than money.

Andy_S
14th Feb 2018, 08:55
Presumably because they were desperate, rather than because they were “up for it” as many here seem to be suggesting was the case in Haiti.

sitigeltfel
14th Feb 2018, 09:33
What some seem to forget is that someone who wishes to spend their earned wages on prostitution are free to do so. No stipulation will have been placed on them how to spend it (see "truck laws").

However, those donating money to charity would rightly expect much higher standards from those receiving it and charged with distributing the goods and services being used to buy sex from the desperate victims of disasters.

Any obfuscation surrounding this shows a degree of moral confusion, or worse.

Pontius Navigator
14th Feb 2018, 09:51
because they were “up for it” as many here seem to be suggesting was the case in Haiti.

And therein lies the rub. "Up for it" out of desperation? And of course they might appear to be up for it in the same way that a shop assistant is all beaming smiles, thinking of commission, while longing for the day to finish.

The Nip
14th Feb 2018, 10:12
What some seem to forget is that someone who wishes to spend their earned wages on prostitution are free to do so. No stipulation will have been placed on them how to spend it (see "truck laws").

However, those donating money to charity would rightly expect much higher standards from those receiving it and charged with distributing the goods and services being used to buy sex from the desperate victims of disasters.

Any obfuscation surrounding this shows a degree of moral confusion, or worse.

It is also, allegedly, to have taken place in a property hired by
Oxfam(us taxpayers) for their officials.

pineridge
14th Feb 2018, 14:56
Sitigeltfel............." someone who wishes to spend their earned wages on prostitution are free to do so."

Not in Norway or Sweden they`re not.

Meldrew
14th Feb 2018, 15:12
Surely in most societies prostitution is part of the local economy. Therefore all they were doing was supporting it. Most likely, not just Oxfam employees.
Copy this to any other part of the world.

PDR1
14th Feb 2018, 15:13
Nor in Haiti, come to that.

PDR

ATNotts
14th Feb 2018, 15:17
Surely in most societies prostitution is part of the local economy. Therefore all they were doing was supporting it. Most likely, not just Oxfam employees.
Copy this to any other part of the world.

That's the way I view it; unless of course the suppliers were under age (in the country where the "business" was conducted).

The "west" should not necessarily export it's morals and sensibilities to other countries, and likewise westerners who contravene local laws should expect to pay the consequences of local justice - such is silly fillies shipping hundred of banned drugs into Egypt. By the same token Middle Eastern and Asian countries should try and export there customs and morals to countries in Europe.

ATNotts
14th Feb 2018, 15:22
Nor in Haiti, come to that.

PDR

In which case, if there are complainants and evidence, the suspects should be returned to Port Au Prince for trial. Can't see that happening though; imagine the outcry from the same papers currently condemning the behaviour of (former) Oxfam employees?

It's a funny (and ironic) world in which we live.

BehindBlueEyes
14th Feb 2018, 17:35
Presumably because they were desperate, rather than because they were “up for it” as many here seem to be suggesting was the case in Haiti.


A bit like Harvey Weinstein’s accusers?

NutLoose
14th Feb 2018, 17:51
I just checked age of consent in Haiti and it is 18, strange thing is some of the actual Oxfam staff could be under age. I checked because it's a funny old world with different laws etc, in the military we went to the USA and some of my colleagues who were the biggest drunkards you could meet couldn't drink as they were underage in the US.

Hopefully these people will be identified, prosecuted and never be put in such a position of trust again. They were there to help, not help themselves.

Pontius Navigator
14th Feb 2018, 18:12
By the same token Middle Eastern and Asian countries should try and export there customs and morals to countries in Europe.
I hope you missed the word NOT out.

ATNotts
15th Feb 2018, 09:02
I hope you missed the word NOT out.

Indeed, the little word makes all the difference. Must learn to read rather than scan when I check what I've written.

Mrs. ATN constantly tells me just that!!!

ORAC
15th Feb 2018, 09:50
By the same token Middle Eastern and Asian countries should try and export there customs and morals to countries in Europe. They have.......

ATNotts
15th Feb 2018, 10:19
They have.......

Not so much the countries, but the State religions of those countries. You could say that Christians have been doing likewise for centuries with their "missionaries" who masquerade at assisting communities, whilst at the same time exporting their beliefs and values to people who previously enjoyed their own.

It would be a shame to divert this thread towards another anti-Islam rant.

Gertrude the Wombat
15th Feb 2018, 10:24
Not so much the countries, but the State religions of those countries. You could say that Christians have been doing likewise for centuries with their "missionaries" who masquerade at assisting communities, whilst at the same time exporting their beliefs and values to people who previously enjoyed their own.
Or simply decide that as the locals aren't Christians they aren't human, and can therefore be subjected to slavery, genocide, ect ect at will (the Catholics in South America, anybody?).

ATNotts
15th Feb 2018, 10:35
Or simply decide that as the locals aren't Christians they aren't human, and can therefore be subjected to slavery, genocide, ect ect at will (the Catholics in South America, anybody?).

Religions, just about all of them, have had a deal to answer for down the centuries, what is perceived as happening in the 21st. century is little different to what happened in the past. Just different religions, with different beliefs, and different methods.

meadowrun
15th Feb 2018, 11:04
Except they don't answer for it - never have. It's a sham.
One still cannot control their multitudes of pedophile priests and clergy.

ORAC
17th Feb 2018, 06:23
Oxfam sex scandal: no more money for charity, say ministers (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-more-money-for-oxfam-say-ministers-dm2vz9n07)

Oxfam has been barred from receiving new government funding unless it reforms, the international development secretary announced last night. Penny Mordaunt said that the charity, which was given £31.7 million last year, would stop getting public money until her department was “satisfied that they can meet the high standards we expect”.

The ministry is the first large donor to withdraw funds from Oxfam since The Times revealed eight days ago that the charity had covered up the use of prostitutes by senior aid workers in Haiti.

Based on last year’s figures, the decision could cost Oxfam £87,000 a day. Ms Mordaunt said: “Clearly Oxfam have a long way to go before they can regain the trust of the British public. My priority is to deliver for the world’s poorest and most vulnerable, while keeping people safe from harm.”........

Mr Optimistic
17th Feb 2018, 14:53
Less of the preaching will you. Seem to recall the Arabs had a nice little earner in the slave trade.

Sallyann1234
17th Feb 2018, 15:14
Oxfam have put whole-page advertisements in today's broadsheets (and possibly in the other papers?) to express their apologies. That will have cost them quite a few contributions. :eek:

Gertrude the Wombat
17th Feb 2018, 16:01
Oxfam has been barred from receiving new government funding ...
... so the contracts will go to the other organisations, which haven't owned up (yet). Clearly an excellent result - what Oxfam will take away from this is to put more effort into the cover-up next time, 'cos being better at cover-ups means you win more contracts from HMG.

Mac the Knife
18th Feb 2018, 13:28
I think you'd have to be insane having sex with one of the locals in places like that unless you were wearing a full CBW suit.

Mac

cargosales
20th Feb 2018, 11:29
I think you'd have to be insane having sex with one of the locals in places like that unless you were wearing a full CBW suit.

Mac

Why not spread the love? And a million other things besides :ooh:

I stand by what I said in post #10 but things have clearly moved on and more details are now coming out. If even half of those allegations are true e.g. food for sex :yuk: (= coercion in my view) then those involved should be named, shamed, prosecuted and hung out to dry.

At the same time, if true, I rather doubt that Oxfam are the only charity whose workers were doing things like that. There must be quite a few others who are conducting 'urgent internal reviews'! Just they are not as well known as Oxfam so don't get the media attention .. :ugh:

CS

charliegolf
20th Feb 2018, 12:14
I rather doubt that Oxfam are the only charity whose workers were doing things like that.

In all the child protection and safeguarding training (minimum of annually for 20+ years) I have sat through, not once was the danger of calculating, career abusers overlooked. These people will sacrifice years of waiting, learning and training to manoeuvre themselves into positions of trust. They can get into unassailable positions of responsibility from where they abuse others. Teachers, coaches, care home workers, young offenders warders, priests, scout masters etc. Charity workers- are we surprised?

Thankfully, not everyone in those groups are abusers.

CG

BehindBlueEyes
20th Feb 2018, 18:44
Blimey! It looks like Oxfam workers AREN’T the only ones being naughty with the ladies...

Former Save the Children boss 'faced three complaints' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43134265)

Gertrude the Wombat
20th Feb 2018, 19:15
Blimey! It looks like Oxfam workers AREN’T the only ones being naughty with the ladies...
Of course not, it's just that they're the only ones who have owned up so far. Which suggests they're probably the least naughty.

krismiler
21st Feb 2018, 06:11
The solution is obvious then, only eunuchs should be employed in positions where there is the potential for abuse, or temptation might be involved. Problem solved.

eal401
21st Feb 2018, 11:58
Wow. Didn't realise prostitution (and the inherent abuse of women that goes on with it) was so acceptable to so many members of PPRuNe.

Don't think the odds would be worth betting that the same people would have a very different view if the perps were Tory MPs....

Andy_S
21st Feb 2018, 12:07
Blimey! It looks like Oxfam workers AREN’T the only ones being naughty with the ladies...

Former Save the Children boss 'faced three complaints' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43134265)

I'm not excusing the behaviour of Justin Forsyth for one moment, but I'd argue there's a difference between inappropriate texts on one hand and taking sexual advantage of desperate women who you had been employed to look after on the other.....

ZeBedie
21st Feb 2018, 18:05
This is where Gary Glitter went wrong - should have done more for charity.

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Feb 2018, 20:19
Wow. Didn't realise prostitution (and the inherent abuse of women that goes on with it) was so acceptable to so many members of PPRuNe.
I find that one a bit tricky, as there are respectable people on every conceivable side of this argument. When in company with, say, academics whose area of study this is, I tend to ask questions and listen, and I still don't know what view I should take myself.

G-CPTN
27th Feb 2018, 07:39
You scratch my back and I'll scratch your (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43206297) . . .

PDR1
27th Feb 2018, 09:02
Wow. Didn't realise prostitution (and the inherent abuse of women that goes on with it) was so acceptable to so many members of PPRuNe.


It's the tip of the iceberg. UN Peacekeeping operations in former Yugoslavia were manned mainly by former american servicemen, policemen or similar employed by a british company contracting to the UN with an "Immunity" clause in their contracts to protect them.

Within a year of the operation starting these people (the peacekeepers) were not merely permitting (with payoffs) the trafficking overseas of teenage girls into the sex trade - they actually went into the business for themselves. Kathryn Bolkovac*, a former Nebraska police officer, took the job for a change of scene after a messy divorce, and when she discovered what was going on she tried to blow the whistle. It just got her sacked, because apparently trafficking underage girls into the sex trade is a perfectly acceptable business for former american servicemen to be involved in.

So frankly the amoral responses you obsrve here may disappoint me but sadly they come as no surprise.

PDR

*Google her - it may open your eyes

jolihokistix
27th Feb 2018, 09:15
Sex for food anyone?
Syria.
Syria conflict: Women 'sexually exploited in return for aid' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43206297)

bbrio1
27th Feb 2018, 11:02
Re: Syrian problems. Who are the people distributing the food? I can't help but imagine they are locals.

Fareastdriver
27th Feb 2018, 13:57
I can't help but imagine they are locals.

They can't be Westerners; they get beheaded.

jolihokistix
27th Feb 2018, 23:01
The interface will be the problem. Middlemen, facilitators and their cut. How far do you shut your eyes to what's happening in order to make sure at least some of the aid gets through...?

RatherBeFlying
28th Feb 2018, 20:42
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/feb/28/aid-staff-sex-workers-earthquake-haiti-speak-out

Methinks the local customers were the ones disadvantaged, somewhat like British soldiers found themselves vis a vis the Yanks in WWII;)

There's one way to put a stop to this.

Don't send men abroad:}

johngreen
11th Mar 2018, 20:11
This is a very interesting commentary on the issues that have caused so much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the above posts.

The ignorance and hypocrisy behind the moral panic over Oxfam | Article Archive (http://paulvallely.com/archive/?p=8528)



As someone who has been very close to the recently reported and other similar circumstances, it was apparent from the start that there has been a huge distortion of 'facts' and that so many of the responses on this thread are based far more on (very incorrect) individual perceptions than any real knowledge of how the so called humanitarian sector functions.

Much of the commentary is perfectly comparable with so many threads that have appeared on Pprune bemoaning the ignorance of members of the general public who have demonstrated their great ignorance of just how hugely complex is the business of flying.
In a very similar way, the multitude of complexities between the point of collecting funds and getting them sensibly spent on the behalf of beneficiaries are rarely understood or considered by those who are only distant observers.

There is no doubt whatsoever that most of the agencies known as the NGOs (non-government organisations) are hugely inefficient and that in many cases, they may well do more harm than good but in such respects, there is no difference whatsoever between them and how most other human organisations function.
The recorded failings of governments, political systems, councils and social services etc are no less abysmal.

The problems can surely be reduced down to the fact that all such structures are operated by the same mixture of hugely fallible human beings whose compounded failures are also the root cause of these same structures being needed.