USA Immigration crackdown

[Lions Gate]

As mentioned in the latest AT tirade, the US Immigration authorities are investigating ALL CX employees who are based in the US. It is suspected that this action has been triggered by a concerned person who feels that certain US based jobs are being occupied by unauthorized individuals, to the detriment of US individuals trapped in HK and not able to obtain a base. CX has managed to antagonize the authorities (and citizens) in nearly every country they operate into, and now you can add the USA to that list. I guess doing things sensibly and lawfully in the first place was just too much trouble. I would also suggest that playing games with the bases will also now come back to bite. Reap/sow.

Oh, and as an aside; to anyone still delusional as to any aspect of a ‘career’ at CX improving, here is AT’s Slido response to a question about the cost of living in HK: “Other than the existing pay scale increments, which guarantee annual increases in base salary for our SOs and most crew, there are no plans to further increase the pay scale. Our remuneration is very competitive, and exceptionally so when viewed over the course of a career.”

She actually has the nerve to say your package is ‘very competitive’ and ‘exceptionally so’ ! Tell that to the wife. Don’t say you haven’t been told the truth of how little your concerns are valued, or that you will be able to be financially secure at CX. There are better employers and better careers to be had elsewhere. To stay at CX will assure misery, anger and frustration.

[Apple Tree Yard]

A little bird tells me that there is a serious ongoing investigation by the FAA regarding certain aspects of our operation. The US Feds do not take kindly to the safety of their citizens being compromised. I believe the DFO will be on the hot seat in very short order. I wouldn't be heading to the US anytime soon if I were her.

[Freehills]

Having a chairman who surrendered their US citizenship probabily doesn’t help the PR

[Vtwin]

I imagine the ICE folks who raided the SFO office might be having a hard look at I9's AND the H1B applications CX sponsored for those flight deck "Managers" in their "specialty occupations." Misrepresenting an occupation on a Visa application to gain approval really doesn't meld with ensuring full compliance of all immigration regulations regardless of country now does it? I'd say it underscores just the opposite.

[Lions Gate]

Safe to say there is a far bigger story here. Will be interesting to see it play out. I know many Americans stuck in HK while other nationalities occupy their base is a festering sore.

[cxorcist]

Plenty of room on the US base for all, Americans and Non. If pilots are stuck in HK (and they are, not just Americans but many nationalities), it is the fault of our feckless management. They have a clear win-win with ALL the bases, already set up and administered. Rather, they choose to subjugate pilots at significant (expat) expense to the bottom line.

As they say, you can’t fix stupid!

[Vtwin]

"Plenty of room on the US base for all, Americans and Non."

Sorry, but I musta missed the part about:

A Permanent Resident Card (also known as a Green Card),
An Employment Authorization Document (work permit), or
A proper employment-related visa which allows you to work for a particular employer.

I'm thinking CX mighta missed this part too.

[cxorcist]

Not the point... Mine is that it’s not Canadians or any others on the US base that are keeping others from it. The management has restricted base opportunities out of little more than animosity. There could be hundreds more pilots on the US bases. If management continues to cut off their nose to spite their face in every possible way, then they will fail and likely take the whole airline with them.

ICE and possibly the US courts will determine legality, but it is moot if our obtuse third floor bean-counters can’t do better at their jobs. They are truly awful at their functions. If we were anywhere close to as bad as pilots, there would be no passengers entrusting their safety with us.

JS, RH, AT, etc... Don’t confuse the past success of Cathay Pacific as having anything to do with you. This airline’s reputation was built by flight and cabin crew, engineers, and ground staff and support personnel, NOT you! YOU ARE, however, destroying it at a rapid rate.

[Lions Gate]

Cxorcist is correct about the 'subjugate pilot' bit however.

[Freehills]

Just curious - how does tax residency work for US domestic airlines?

I.e. if someone is on a LAX base for UA, but commutes from Nevada, do they pay California or Nevada state taxes? Or Illinois because UA is headquartered in Chicago?

[sony]

State taxes are paid/not paid based on the pilots “listed” permanent residence. Base/domicile, or company headquarters, is irrelevant.

[Lions Gate]

Cxorcist is also correct as to who is to blame for the inevitable downfall of this airline.

[Shep69]

Under tax residency law in this case, the person would pay Nevada state taxes (i.e where he is domiciled) unless 50% or greater of his flight time occurs in CA.(yes I know NV has no personal state income tax).

For employment law the rules generally follow where the person is based (i.e. CA).

[Lions Gate]

Even in spite of the weather and ocean, you would have to be bonkers to live in Mexifornia.

[ColonelAngus]

Who would be subject to criminal prosecution for making false statements during the application process, the company, the pilot, or both?

[GTC58]

Interesting to read the above. For what its worth CX never sponsored any Canadian with a H1B visa, try L1A. ICE was in SFO last week and inspected 77 companies. CX was not the only company inspected.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/ICE-workplace-sweep-hits-Northern-California-12544863.php

I find it very interesting that most posters think that anything illegal was done or false statements were given. I am sure the lawyers who were involved in the whole process would disagree.

Anyways we will know within a couple of weeks what ICE has to say.

In regards of US bases, I do not think there will be any available until the California court case has been resolved, which can take another 3-4 years if the plaintiffs and company don't settle outside court. If the court case goes class action I am afraid there might be no US Basings in the future.

[Lions Gate]

Yes, you are correct about the 77 companies. And all 77 were targeted due to 'investigative' findings that then placed CX as one of the 77. They weren't just random picks. Also, could you provide the reason for the lawsuits against the company in the US? I am not aware of these. Thanks.

[Vtwin]

GTC58

H1 or L1, pawning pilots off as managers sure seems like a very interesting manipulation. Maybe ICE won’t dig that deep and check since the CX SFO office raid was likely just a casual social call they got caught up in out of sheer happenstance with other straight up companies.

I agree it is up to ICE et al. and there may very well be nothing false or illegal surrounding any of this, serious questions aside.

[Vtwin]

ColonelAngus

Don’t know, good question. I’d imagine they might have an answer at 1-866-DHS-2-ICE

[airplaneridesrfun]

I guess the Canadians without a green card/citizenship/Work visa are going to have a tough pill to swallow when they figure out that the US and Canada are two very distinct countries. The US actually has immigration laws, and finally is now enforcing those laws to the benefit of US citizens and the treasury. The Canadians have fooled themselves and misled the ICE officers for a long time now...... you can’t enter the country to start work, when you tell them that you are entering the USA for leisure!


Employees whose documentation fails to prove they have a legal right to work must be fired, and the businesses must verify to ICE that they have discharged the workers, Paparelli said.

The investigations from this week’s ICE raids “remain ongoing,” agency spokesman Schwab said. “Any potential criminal charges or other penalties will be coordinated with the U.S. Department of Justice.”

State legislation signed by Gov. Jerry Brown this year requires that employers notify their workers of such an audit and provide them with the results.

[Flex88]

If you're a Canuk (or other) working for CX in LAX/SFO you have zero to worry about.. Simply arrive from Mexico without a visa and stay in California, the nations newest "Sanctuary State". Why bother with a work visa, millions don't?

"US actually has immigration laws" = what a joke.

[Vtwin]

Prior to the Trump administration, I'd agree 100%

[airplaneridesrfun]

I don’t think an ICE raid is a joke.

A Mexican and a Canadian worker are equal in terms of needing the right to work in the US. There are a lot of fat white chicks left, so hurry up and pick one for your green card before the Mexicans get them all.

[Flex88]

Vtwin

Location- "In a van down by the river" ? Are we talking the Rio Grande ?

[Flex88]

airplaneridesrfun

Really, maybe we should ask the approx 12 MILLION "Illegal Aliens" presently in the US how many are Canadian..

If you're a Canuk, you'll be thrown out IMMEDIATLY, no questions asked. If you're from South of the Rio Grande, welcome to California, how may we help you.

[Flex88]

There will be no more fines; our "People Dept" Leadership is on top of this issue as the Director has an extensive background in this area:rolleyes:

[Trafalgar]

Curtain, you may be correct, but the problem is that the days of 'fudging' the facts, truth, laws and the effect it has had on peoples lives (like the yanks who are stuck in HK) are effectively over. There is ample evidence that the whole NA base has been jury-rigged and is based on many cosy assumptions and falsehoods (if not outright illegality). This current enforcement action will upend many lives unfortunately, but the ultimate blame lies with a company that has for years acted as though the laws don't apply to them, whether in HK or overseas. The ones who get hurt are the employees and their families who trusted that a major employer would have a modicum of responsibility towards them and their welfare (Paris, Manchester...etc). This company is toxic, and the proof is evident every single day. Anyone who plans on risking their livelihood and their families security with this proven bunch of gangsters will rue the day...

[cxorcist]

I agree that an ICE raid is no joke. However, I believe the law may be on the side of non-Americans working in the US, specifically on “foreign registered vessels”. Vessels can be aircraft or ships, but I think this law was designed with ship crews in mind, specifically those commuting to crew ships from US ports.

One could argue that an airline job with more regular commuting is a different dynamic, especially considering reserve and other airline specifics. Do said employees retain the same employment protections as a US citizen, green card holder, or other approved visa worker? Do state specific laws apply to foreign nationals working in CA and other states?

These are questions that cut to the core of a global economy and workforce. Trump is certainly less friendly to foreign workers than was the previous administration. Yet, the issue would likely be determined in court if pursued. That said, I’m not sure CX would bother to spend money in court if the Feds pressed the issue, and that might be the beginning of the end of the US base.

[Trafalgar]

Well, it won't be you or I determining this. It will be ICE, and they apparently have been 'led' to the issue, by a person(s) who have a vested interest. The landscape has changed in the USA regarding immigration/work status. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

my 2c worth: I think it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that a permanent base of foreign workers, ostensibly taking jobs from Americans could be considered kosher. I don't know the answer, but it really doesn't pass the smell test. Imagine a bunch of Americans taking up all the OZ slots, or Frenchmen taking all the London slots (after Brexit :)).

[oriental flyer]

The hypocrisy of anyone who has drawn ICE’s attention to the US base is unbelievable .
They were very happy to take up a work permit and residence in HK as a foreigner. But as soon as a base was set up in the US and they didn’t have the seniority to hold it they went squealing to immigration about non green card holders being employed in the USA .
If they feel so strongly then they should have stayed in the USA instead of taking a job which could have gone to an Aussie , Brit , or South African .
I know this doesn’t apply to a lot of the USA pilots who are great guys but the sense of entitlement from a few is unbelievable

[Vtwin]

Nonsense oriental flyer. HKG is open to everyone, all bases are currently shut to those who don’t have the right to work, not just the US bases. You also left out the part about legality. If there is nothing wrong with the current arrangement, then no one is disadvantaged, scrutiny brought to bear or not, except maybe US pilots. It’s hypocritical for you to squeal about the legal right to work at US bases only. It is also indefensible to knock anyone who doesn’t share your same sentiments regarding the laws of maybe their own country. How do you know this raid was due to only an American(s) pushing for it? Maybe it was a jealous exchange rate driven Canadian? Maybe even yourself? This might of come about other ways too.

[GTC58]

ICE is presently targeting many businesses in California. I doubt anyone reported CX to ICE to target their pilots. Every employee in SFO, ground staff, cabin crew and pilots were audited. CX just fit a certain profile which ICE wanted to audit.

Well, in regards of some posters being hypocritical, you all are aware that there are many US citizens on a Canadian base with no visa. I remember one American who took an early freighter command in YVR who was the most vocal to get Canadians kicked of the US base.
Now thats someone I would call hypocritical.

It also seems, most of the above posters are not familiar with the law in the US. California Supreme Court ruled a couple of years ago that all California laws, specifically discrimination laws, apply to undocumented immigrants. As such, employers can not discriminate against national origin regardless of status. Considering this ruling, CX might be already in non-compliance as they restrict Canadians to stay on base and in rank on the California bases, even though they are employed under a US CBA with US labour and discrimination law protections. In addition CX insisted since 93 that it is totally legal for Canadians to fly CX jets out of California bases and lets say ICE rules that this is not the case CX could be facing significant litigation in California by those affected.

Most Canadians on the US base are classified non-resident aliens as they live and commute from Canada. The same applies to Americans on the Canada base. There are provisions for this under NAFTA and US / Canada immigration laws. When CX onshored the US bases, there was significant time and money spent for US immigration lawyers to determine if Canadians can remain on the base. IMO ICE will just confirm this and the status quo remains.

[Vtwin]

Caught in a potential tug-of-war between CA and the Feds? Good luck with that going through Customs.
Working for this place really is a true pain in the ass...
How many Americans in Canada? 25 or as “many” as 5?

[GTC58]

How many Canadians in the US? Does it matter?

[Vtwin]

Many more than 5, and if they are there legally, then none of this matters.

[Flex88]

100% right on Traf.. The background experience and education of the now Dir of Peeps proves that. Swires don't want things done "properly" they want it done their way... The new top "Leadership" just announced will be exactly the same. It's a family trait thing that's been around for about 200 years.

[plainpilot11]

It’s all a moot point arguing over the legality. Bases are done. Over. Finished. Never to be seen again. Dying on the vine. Finito! Ended. Forever a thing of the past. A pipe dream. A fool’s hope. A sucker’s belief. Completely sunk. Anyone thinking differently is completely delusional. Anyone staying for a base is delusional. Anyone hoping for a base is hoping in vain. Bases are cooked.

[Trafalgar]

Not to mention having certain based pilots happy to ignore CC in HK, and help the company out with G day flying / discretion / joining training. The ironic thing about all of that is that they are cutting their own throats and those of their colleagues. Undermine the fight in HK (thereby enabling CX towards a cheaper HK cost basis), and you eventually get forced back to HK as they no longer need bases. :D

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

I trust those joining training on a base and returning to Hong Kong will be banned from the HKAOA! Oh, of course not!

[BlunderBus]

Read the c1D visa... foreign crew 29 days EACH visit... the word base is pure BS no matter what the company says. Nothing to say you can’t own a house and spend a week or so in the USA between trips.
No need to file tax either as days in the USA as a crew member count for ZERO towards tax residency.
They cocked it all up from the get go as usual !

[DropKnee]

I have no information on US based guys joining training during the ban.
As far as engaging in CC, It’s against the law. That being said, I don’t know of anyone working G days etc.also as a percentage of the pilot group. They probably have the highest number of resignations. 2018/19 will be a banner year for hiring. I would bet everyone who wants to depart will have a few chances to do just that.

[Shep69]

BlunderBus

Ya...I might be careful with that. Developing a 'scheme' of bouncing someone on and off visas often violates OTHER laws that maybe you didn't know about when you came up with your scheme. A prudent employer doesn't ask legal counsel 'how can I get away with this' but asks 'what's the right thing to do and what are the pitfalls in what I'm considering.'

Just like when one fills out his or her taxes. You can claim a lot of stuff, but when you get audited you better have been genuine otherwise you can face significant penalty.

For a hypothetical example,

The L1A visa was designed such it would apply to department heads and relatively high up executives who operate with a great deal of autonomy. Someone coming into the US to open a factory which employs several hundred (or thousand) workers and was necessary to do so. Potentially applicable to THE department head(s) who would set up Cathay's entire operation for the US. It was NOT designed to accommodate middle managers, staff, or minions. And how it would apply to an airline pilot (or captain) who ultimately does have some decision making authority but for the most part operates bridled by regulation, SOP, and company policy during normal operations completely escapes me. Hypothetically, one could probably write the job to sound better than it actually is on the application, but to me that would be dishonest and I would hope my legal advice would tell me that it was so and potentially subject to later scrutiny.

Perhaps things are really on the up and up and I guess in the long run we will see.

[BlunderBus]

No scheme at all... it’s what every foreign crew member use to enter the USA. They can waffle on about ‘basings’ But the underlying legal fact remains everyone is employed by the parent company in hk... no other entity exists. The labor infraction(s) lawsuits aren’t brought against a non existant ‘branch’ office but the employing parent company. Just to be clear .. nobody is fudging taxes.. the law as it stands is respected.

[Shep69]

Be interesting to see what information contained in the petitions that led CIS to come to the (apparently erroneous) conclusion that they did. Hopefully everything is on the up-and-up. Guess we'll see.

Not sure that I agree at all with YOUR interpretation of how CIS issues L-1s.

[Vtwin]

This could amount to little or nothing, or it could become a RICO (extended criminal penalties) case and anything in between.

For RICO, govco must prove a defendant engaged in two or more instances of racketeering activity. Section (A) covers murder, kidnapping and all that nice stuff.

Section (B) includes any act which is indictable under any of the following provisions of title 18,....

And racketeering activity provisions as defined under Section 1546 of Section (B) is one (relating to fraud and misuse of visas, permits, and other documents).

Additionally, there is section 274 (relating to bringing in and harboring certain aliens), then there is section 277 (relating to aiding or assisting certain aliens to enter the United States).

Seems like there is plenty for the Feds to work with in those alone. There are other provisions/sections they could draw upon as well if they see fit to push this as a RICO issue provided CX is seen as the correct type of enterprise for that pursuit.

So, who rolled this dice....?

[ANTIPHOLUS]

Tony Soprano

[BlunderBus]

The company just cancelled social security and Medicare for ‘us based’ cabin crew (us citizens) on the declaration that WE (the airline) are a fully foreign registered business entity flying foreign registered aircraft. Thereby screwing the girls out of their decade of 10% contributions of which only the last 3 are recoverable. How then can they now say they are an “onshore” employer? Utter bull****. They were and remain a hk corporation and have royally cocked up ‘base’ employment in every single jurisdiction. I contest that all base crew in NAM remain employees of a hk Corp offshore.
They can’t have it both ways.

[mngmt mole]

Amongst many outrages (where does one start..?), that was particularly immoral. To have staff working for a decade with the expectations that they were accruing their rightful government benefits, then basically use an accounting trick to strip those benefits away a decade later is truly plumbing the depths of corporate malfeasance. Disgusting in every way. Most of those crew have now resigned in disgust. Says EVERYTHING about this company and it's management. How can ANYONE trust the years of their career to people such as that? :mad:

[NYVR]

Per usual a bunch of wrong, misleading and speculating information posted on PPRUNE. But then again it is a rumor network. Truth is, as per the SFO ground staff office. An ex CX ground staff who now works for SA is being investigated. The individual in question worked for CX in 2008 and never had the legal right to work in the USA and has since been illegally working for SA. Nothing to do the Canadians commuting to/from work. Which is yes. Legal.

[airplaneridesrfun]

Next time you enter the USA for work, make sure to tell the immigration officer that you are going to the USA for work. See what he says after a time or two of doing that, and then tell me it's legal (if you don't have an L1A, green card, etc...).

[Freehills]

Isn't that what the GenDec says? :)

[cxorcist]

I’m not implying that any CX pilot is working in the US illegally (because I don’t think they are), but I’m pretty sure a pilot commuting to a US base from outside the country will not be in possession of or clearing customs on a GenDec. Correct? That argument, if it is the one being made, is moot.

It’s one thing to be part of a crew on a foreign registered aircraft entering the US. It’s something entirely different to be based in the US and assuming federal and state’s rights without citizenship or some form of work visa. See the difference?

I don’t think anyone would argue that a YVR or YYZ based crewmember positioning into the US to operate a CX flight is doing so illegally. That is completely different than commuting, and where the confusion exists imo. A YVR based Captain is well within the law when positioning to LAX to operate. Nobody would dispute that. However, a US based, Canadian Captain living in YVR is different. I’m not sure US Customs is aware of the difference. Both appear the same to him at the kiosk.

Furthering the discussion, nobody would argue that the YVR based captain obtains US federal and state’s workers’ rights upon arrival to LAX. However, US based pilots (citizen, visa, and otherwise) are assumed to have those rights.

So, I think we have to account for the differences which are profound. I believe the law does not address them because this situation was never envisioned. However, the law does address members of foreign registered vessels. Google search the INA, but I don’t think it will result in any firm conclusions. It would take litigation and “intent of the law” to get any firm footing, which is why CX has, wisely imo, decided to freeze the US base to non-citizen/visa holders.

Notwithstanding California’s undocumented immigrant and worker policies, this is clearly an issue which falls under federal authority as per the Immigration and Nationality Act. Those challenging federal authority on these issues from the state and city government levels are going to be smacked down handily by the US Supreme Court once the cases filter their way through all the lower federal courts and their activist judges legislating from the bench.

[Freehills]

Yes - I was just being facetious about Airplanerdrfun's comment. Because entering the US for work, for the vast majority of CX pilots, is completely legal with no grey area.

[Landflap]

Mate of mine, UK ATPL, 3000hrs, B757 current. Told by Delta that they would take him provided, of course, he got his FAA ATP and had the right to live & work in the USA. He told Delta that it would smooth things with the Immigration bods in the UK if he could have a formal letter offering employment. Delta told him, no, first, you need your green Card. US immigration in the UK said they would give him a green card if Delta gave him a formal job offer. My mate asked if Delta and US immigration people would talk to eachother. They never did and stopped talking to my mate as well. That was in 1985.

[Airbubba]

If he subsequently didn't meet those requirements what would you expect Delta to do? Did he have his Flight Engineer Turbojet written exam completed? That was probably a requirement at Delta in 1985 as well.

Like CX, Delta always has plenty of qualified applicants.

I've sure seen that shell game with expat contract mechanics floating around Asia and going out of the country every three months to get a new visa stamp.

[Airbubba]

Has there ever been a case of a major U.S. airline sponsoring a foreign national on an employment visa? I've never heard of it.

I realize some Ozmate visas have been recently issued for regional jet carriers since the Big Three are hiring so many RJ pilots.

[cxorcist]

... but just maybe the regionals ought to simply improve their pay and conditions so that all their pilots don’t want to leave. Sound familiar?

[Air Profit]

CX being that 'regional'. Unbelievable how far this airline has fallen. Tragic and disgraceful.

[bafanguy]

Has there ever been a case of a major U.S. airline sponsoring a foreign national on an employment visa? I've never heard of it.

I realize some Ozmate visas have been recently issued for regional jet carriers since the Big Three are hiring so many RJ pilots.

Bubba,

This:

Some U.S. regional airlines are now sponsoring Canadians for the H1B Vis - AVCANADA (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=122708)

It doesn't appear to be widespread but Republic is doing at least some of it.

I guess we need to send a bigger boat to Australia ! :uhoh:

[bafanguy]

... but just maybe the regionals ought to simply improve their pay and conditions so that all their pilots don’t want to leave

cx,

You want to fly a regional jet for the rest of your career ? I'll guess not.

Then neither do most other people hence movement from regional to legacy or LCC.

The days of US regionals paying $20K/year are long over.

The real answer is to bring ALL regional flying under the mainline umbrella and mainline pilots doing that flying as one of their MANY options at the legacy level.

That won't happen...

[cxorcist]

I would GLADLY fly a regional jet for the rest of my career on the proper package commensurate with my experience and ability, which is about $250-300K per year, good benefits, and a decent rostering system from the base of my choice. Fantasy? Of course, because as you say, the legacy carriers will just bring all that flying in house, as they should have done 20+ years ago. The days of making big money off the backs of poorly paid pilots are coming to an end, at least in the US.

[Apple Tree Yard]

And CX. The market is speaking, and the resignation rate tells the only truth in this story. People want to feel their career expectations are being respected and valued by their employer. CX abrogated all such concerns years ago, and now that we are in a historic airline expansion and hiring boom, there are better choices to be had. No one wants to be the last to join a new seniority list. That is why the groundswell of movement to our competitors is just getting started. Better to be back home, in a better environment, with the ability for you and your family to have a healthy, settled and comfortable life. There is no reason to struggle with all that ails HK. There are better opportunities just about everywhere else.

[bafanguy]

...because as you say, the legacy carriers will just bring all that flying in house, as they should have done 20+ years ago. The days of making big money off the backs of poorly paid pilots are coming to an end, at least in the US.

cx,

Bringing regional flying into mainline is sure not on the horizon here from all appearances. DL's CEO, Ed Bastian, was recently asked if they'd ever fold their wholly-owned regional, Endeavor, into mainline. His answer was an unequivocal "NO". He said DL likes it the way it is.

As for the end of making money from low-paid pilots, I see no end to that. Perhaps when row upon row of serviceable airplanes are parked in the desert with tires going flat for lack of crews, something may change. But until then, seats WILL be filled here...one way or another. Same for the whole industry worldwide.

Management is keenly aware of this state of affairs. But, it sure is entertaining. :O

[iamlistening]

cxorcist:


"I would GLADLY fly a regional jet for the rest of my career on the proper package commensurate with my experience and ability, which is about $250-300K per year, good benefits, and a decent rostering system from the base of my choice. Fantasy? Of course, because as you say, the legacy carriers will just bring all that flying in house, as they should have done 20+ years ago. The days of making big money off the backs of poorly paid pilots are coming to an end, at least in the US."


Any yet you did fly for a regional at what, $15-20k a year? And you were one of the first SOs to come to CX, maybe even one of the contract ones, if I recall your bar talk correctly. And now that you have all that SJ time under your belt you look with disdain on those behind you trying to do the same. Just how have you helped the pilot cause?

[cxorcist]

You have me and my background all wrong friend. I came through military channels as a DEFO. I was well qualified when I joined. Nice try though.

As for helping the cause, literally thousands of hours volunteering to enhance the profession through our unions. And you? What have you done?

[raven11]

Well put cxorcist...

If I can add my two cents: The pilot cause can be helped by insisting on proper hiring standards. Which means that if someone is to be hired as a pilot on a commercial airliner, then that person must first have flying experience as a pilot.

As has been mandated for airlines under FAA jurisdiction.

[bm330]

Every line pilot knows the only way things will change is a disaster. Having the FAA or EASA audit after an accident will reveal just how poorly qualified CX pilots are. Most junior FOs and SOs couldn't even hold a license in the US. Aircraft insurers would also be shocked at how little experience is sitting in some cockpits at 0400 body clock at the end of 14hr flight. CX Captains are old school and have kept the operation together so far but bad management decisions always catch up (Murphy's Law).