Scared of Flying?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

I just finished reading Tony Doyle's rather excellent book about his time spent flying Meteors, Vampires, Gnats and Lightnings in the RAF. Link


He mentions somewhat casually mid-way through that was always scared of flying, and that he would be anxious from the moment he awoke on a flying day.

At the time he was display flying (Gnats and, later, Lightning solo) it almost drove him to mental breakdown. A couple of years convalescence on a ground tour saw him return to a better state of mind, but he remained very anxious with high altitude and night flight.

Doyle explains that his own ejection from a dying Lighting had made matters worse, as had seeing the two previous Lighting solo display pilots buy the farm, but it is clear that he persevered and flew many hours over 20 years despite the fact he was frightened.

How common is this among military flyers?

[camelspyyder]

I have been crewed up with several other rearcrew over 36 years who were scared of flying, and they were often even more scared when "getting back on the bike" after an emergency.

However, much more recently, I myself retired after 9 months of being scared witless on every single flying day. I could not even consider the offer of 5 years more flying service; I simply could not wait to get the last flight done and to stay on the ground for good.

[Timelord]

Well, I freely admit to being nervous before some trips but it wasn’t death I was afraid of - it was screwing up.

[ACW599]

The WSO in one of the Tornados involved in the Moray Firth collision (ZD743) was described in the SI as suffering from phobic anxiety disorder.

[4Greens]

Carrier flying was a different ball game. Someone asked me if I ever had an emergency. I replied that every trip was an emergency !

For passengers on civil aircraft, ask them what is the most dangerous part of the flight? When you have said wrong every time, you explain

that its the drive to the airport.

[Herod]

I don't know about scared of flying, but I know an awful lot of pilots who are scared of heights. I'm just about capable of getting to the bedroom windows to clean them from the outside, (about seventh rung on a ladder?) and I know some who couldn't even get that far. As long as I wasn't connected to the earth I was fine.

Having said that, in the months leading up to my breakdown I was getting more and more nervous about descending IMC. Despite two-crew, Rad Alt, EGPWS etc, I had this irrational feeling that the ground was going to come up and get me.

[ValMORNA]

The only time I was scared in an aircraft was in the early 1950's, at RAF Fayid, Suez Canal Zone. We had just got PAR and was on a practice approach when I, sitting back quite nonchalantly (while the driver and nav were doing their good deeds) from my Siggies position beneath the astrodome spotted a bleedin' great York aircraft about 100 feet at a guess right above us, also on the approach. Screamed for the pilot to take evasive action. Job done.
Not aware of any recriminations.

[NutLoose]

I'm not a great lover of heights and working up on the VC10 engines used to give me the willies even though I loved it, one of the most frightening times was letting myself slide off the side of the engines and drop onto the safety raiser next to the fire extinguisher housing... It got even more frightening when it was raining or when deiced as gloss paint, deciing fluid and water made the whole thing like an ice rink, top that off with having safety harnesses in stores but nowhere to actually to clip them.

[extpwron]

Tony Doyle was my Flight Commander at Halton when I was nearing the end of my RAF Apprenticeship. This was the late 1960’s which would co-coincide with “A couple of years convalescence on a ground tour saw him return to a better state of mind”.

I, along with half a dozen other “Brats”, had been selected for potential commissioning and Tony took us to Norway for a winter survival expedition to assess our suitability.

I will never forget the moment when we were grouped at the top of the mountain all kitted out with our “Norwegian planks” cross country skis. He pointed to me and said I should wait a couple of minutes then follow his tracks through the forest. This I managed quite easily until I came to a point when the two ski tracks split and went either side of a tree!

He always struck me as being a happy go lucky kind of person and, until I read this post, had no idea to his background. Makes sense now.

[The Old Fat One]

However, much more recently, I myself retired after 9 months of being scared witless on every single flying day. I could not even consider the offer of 5 years more flying service; I simply could not wait to get the last flight done and to stay on the ground for good.

Bravo. Simple integrity conveys moral courage in a profoundly raw manner.

I retired when my I could not stomach the daily preflight anxiety any longer. I could have stayed another 8 years in ground tours and collected my £50K pa salary and a much bigger pension, but my moral compass could not square that circle so I left at age 47.

I thought the invasion of Iraq was illegal as well, but I guess that's a different story.

[Wensleydale]

Many years ago, I used to fly with an Italian flight deck crew - and discovered why the Pope always kissed the tarmac when he left an aircraft!

[Shack37]

There are posts here, I believe, from ex Shack aircrew. As ex Shack ground crew I can only say " If any of the many Shack pilots I flew with as ground support felt like this, thank you for not showing it"
Especially on one memorable flight from Majunga to K´sar with an unscheduled stopover in Nairobi.:uhoh:

[NutLoose]

Civi wise I know a ppl who scared themselves so sh*tless they couldn't land and it took a calm instructor voice in air tragic to talk them down, I don't think they flew again.

[typerated]

I gave it away after being unable to get past the thought "is this the day it all ends" ?
Small mistakes I would beat myself up for and then fear the worst.
In hindsight it became a bit of a viscous circle that slowly got worse over time.
My flying became more and more timid and less natural. I was pleased to land and have not screwed up - or at the later stages be seen to not have screwed up!

I remember reading Jerry Pook's Harrier book and applauded his honestly.
There are a few people on this forum to who have written some brave words on the subject - one a Falklands Harrier pilot and the other is I understand an instructor at Valley - fair play to you both!

[typerated]

Slight off topic but I also think that a lot of people that fly are very 'driven' (although not so much me).
Its a character trait that is usually needed (at least to some degree) to get to do the cool jobs but also can be destructive for some people too.
Also when they retire or the job is taken away - think sports stars after they retire - I think most find it difficult to have something meaningful in their lives.
Mental health seems to be a problem for a fair chunk of pilots I think.

[mopardave]

I'm staggered at this thread! It never occurred to me that anyone would feel this way. Absolute respect though. Nutloose makes a good point.....the connection with the ground. Drifting a little here, and certainly not making a comparison.....but, as I got older, I found it more and more difficult to operate aerial platforms (up to 99 feet) in the fire service. I'll never forget the feeling when I thought I'd toppled an hydraulic platform....merely a trick of the inner ear thankfully. Anyway.....apologies for commenting here. Nothing but respect from me gents.
MD

[mopardave]

Slight off topic but I also think that a lot of people that fly are very 'driven' (although not so much me).
Its a character trait that it's usually needed (at least to some degree) to get to do the cool jobs but also can be destructive for some people too.
Also when they retire or the job is taken away - think sports stars after they retire - I think most find it difficult to have something meaningful in their lives.
Mental health seems to be a problem for a fair chunk of pilots I think.
couldn't agree more typerated!

[frodo_monkey]

This is luckily something that I don’t suffer from. But Pingu, a good mate, did and put pen to paper recently having left. An abridged version of his (excellent and courageous) blog post is here, on p30:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/A2C31B86_5056_A318_A836692DCFC98910.pdf

[Miles Magister]

Gosh, What an interesting and thought provoking thread. As mentioned above, in the RAF I also used to beat myself up over small mistakes but that is nothing to what I see in the civil world. But as they are not dropping out of the sky is it me?

MM

[ICM]

At Stradishall for the Advanced Nav training course, our Dep Course Cdr had just arrived from Canberras. After the longish overseas trip to Gib we did at the end of the Varsity phase, he mentioned quietly to me that night that he had been physically ill that morning at the prospect of some 7 hours flying without an ejector seat - something he'd never done before.

And by chance, the British Journal for Military History has just published a WW1 edition that can be downloaded free. It contains an article on early medical perspectives on the "Nervous Flyer":

The Nervous Flyer: Nerves, Flying and the First World War | Shaw Cobden | British Journal for Military History (http://www.bjmh.org.uk/index.php/bjmh/article/view/215)

[NutLoose]

I'm staggered at this thread! It never occurred to me that anyone would feel this way. Absolute respect though. Nutloose makes a good point.....the connection with the ground. Drifting a little here, and certainly not making a comparison.....but, as I got older, I found it more and more difficult to operate aerial platforms (up to 99 feet) in the fire service. I'll never forget the feeling when I thought I'd toppled an hydraulic platform....merely a trick of the inner ear thankfully. Anyway.....apologies for commenting here. Nothing but respect from me gents.
MD

We used them on the Tens for working up on the tail plane, I took someone up to full stretch and was rotating it for him to get some pictures when I heard an awful graunching noise, the guy laughed and pointed at a hose that had got caught, I went cold as it was the main hydraulic line to the jack, I rotated back, lowered it down and put the thing U/S for a stretched hose. Ignorance on his side was bliss.

But some people just had no fear, some of you who know the Ten will understand this, we had a guy that used to cling onto the drip strip above the rear galley door and then swing himself up onto the pylon... It still scares me to think of it.

[Avtur]

Interesting thread that has reminded me of a fear I encountered some 23 years into flying: After the Nimrod XV230 fire, my confidence in the airframe was seriously impaired. Every encounter with turbulence had me worrying that a structural failure would occur, and that I would find myself experiencing some free fall terror that presumably the heroes of XV230 did. I was terrified. I completely lost confidence in the aircraft and requested a ground tour (using another excuse), which I got. It’s sad to think that as a 20 year old Nimrod crew member, I relished pulling g and bouncing around at low level for hours on end; it was so exhilarating. Many of us comment how invincible we thought we were when we were younger, so perhaps it was an age and experience thing that made me realize my mortality. Either way, I am very thankful to have had the flying career that I did, but very humbled to be writing about it today.

[Hydromet]

MoparDave, my old job also required us to work at heights above flowing water, and it was never a thing that worried me. Also, I was quite happy to work high on a ladder or in a harness dangling off a bridge. However, with age, I've developed what seems to me a quite rational fear of working on high ladders. I suspect it's because I'm aware that my balance, reaction time and coordination are probably not what they were.

[PapaDolmio]

A very interesting thread which I hope continues.
I spend most of my (ground based) career on flying squadrons in the FJ,RW and AT fleets and always had the greatest respect for the crews I worked with. Would I have swapped places with them...probably not.
I always enjoyed flying and never turned down a trip but launching at night in crap weather in the middle of winter no way.
You could spot the guys who struggled but kept going. I remember one pilot (a really nice guy) who struggled through OCU and always seemed to be slighly less than comfortable- he was subsequently killed on his first tour. Also remember an experienced captain who got to the runway threshold and decided he couldn't do it anymore. Again, a smashing bloke and who I had the greatest respect for. Finally,I remember a pilot who was taken off flying because he admitted that sometimes when flying he didn't feel like he was in the aircraft- that he was sitting outside watching himself- a brave thing to admit, although someone did tell me it is not an unknown phenomenon especially in IMC?
Personally I was only really scared on a flight once (Chinook across the North sea in February in very marginal weather and rough sea), not helped by a colleague next to me throwing up the whole trip!
I also remember feeling very uncomfortable (scared) on a C130 transit back from the ME when I suddenly became aware that all there was between me and a 24000 ft drop was a couple of thin sheets of metal and what would happen if they split! Bizarrely I felt better when I put my seatbelt back on(?).

[Yamagata ken]

However, with age, I've developed what seems to me a quite rational fear of working on high ladders. I suspect it's because I'm aware that my balance, reaction time and coordination are probably not what they were.

'Scuse the interloping, but quite. Height in an aircraft doesn't bother me. Working on ladders and roofs was never comfortable, but age deterioration of my physical powers makes it seriously stressful. Unfortunately, our climate requires climbing icy ladders to get on to snow-covered roofs and I don't like that at all. I've managed to ameliorate that to some extent by installing fixed ladders to our properties, but getting up there and close to the edge to dump snow requires mind-power and will.

It's been a long winter. I'm looking forward to digging out the Suzuki and getting some motorcycle therapy.

[Pontius Navigator]

Following Nuttys mention of heights, I experienced the 'need to pee' feeling when sitting on the floor of the Varsity, feet dangling in space, looking through the bomb aimers windows at the ground 4,000 feet below.

Similar sort of view if you were waiting to parachute. OTOH getting into the belly and lying down was no problem.

On fear of flying, either ignorance or overconfidence but not fear. OTOH certainly anxiety. I still recall one anxiety nightmare. The setting was a limited procedure radar bomb run using LP3A on a southerly heading and confusing left and right.

[Pontius Navigator]

PD, on your last, was that around the time when passengers were sucked out of the 747?

[Pontius Navigator]

How about fear or anxiety as SLF? Do you sit right behind the pilot, down near the galley, or over the wing?

[PapaDolmio]

PD, on your last, was that around the time when passengers were sucked out of the 747?

Don't think so. I can't recall thinking about cabin decompression or structural failure specifically, only that it was a long way down!
Funny how the mind works.

[BEagle]

We once had a navigator known as 'Seagull' - because you had to throw things at him in order to encourage him to fly....

The only time I can recall being frightened in an aeroplane was when the QFI with whom I was flying in a JP decided without any warning to demonstrate rolling inverted and pulling over hills in the Yorkshire Dales at considerably less than 250' a.g.l. "That's what TSR-2 was designed to do!", he said afterwards - perpetuating that myth.

He later killed himself in a Jaguar, I gather....:uhoh:

[Basil]

This is luckily something that I don’t suffer from. But Pingu, a good mate, did and put pen to paper recently having left. An abridged version of his (excellent and courageous) blog post is here, on p30:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/A2C31B86_5056_A318_A836692DCFC98910.pdf
Just passed that to S1 who's a senior manager but referring to:
'I learnt about being a Flight Commander from that… '
which is a great tale of overload and stress in an unfamiliar environment.
1. Apart from getting people killed if you make an error, it's directly relevant to his sort of civil management.
2. Good for the City types to read that the mil isn't all cheap booze and mess parties. ;)

[mopardave]

Age must have a major bearing on all this. I remember being thrown around in the back of a herc over the Great Yorkshire showground in Harrogate and numerous trips in Chinooks and Puma's over the Yorkshire Dales back in the '80's.....and loving every single second! My faith in the aircrew was absolute....after all, their training would save us, right? My incident with the hydraulic platform, whilst only being at about 60 0r 70 feet at the time, changed everything for me. Added to the fact I was getting older meant my appetite for risk was diminishing rapidly. It really hit me though when I was running towards the rear of a burning plumbers van on the A1 near the Linton on Ouse exit.....and I was imagining exploding cylinders coming through the back doors! It was vivid and I'd never felt like that before. I was overdue retirement and I knew I'd had a good run. My finger was hovering over the eject button from that day on.
Apologies for making a lame comparison but I'm shocked, humbled and hugely respect the candour here.
MD

[Danny42C]

mopardave (#16),, and the many of the same opinion,

Couldn't agree more! - same with me, acrophobia, it's called. Even when in my prime (and that's going back a bit!) I had to "screw my courage to the sticking point" to get up on the house roof and fit a wire cowl to the chimney pot. ... Flying? - No trouble at all!

Read somewhere that there is a certain tribe of native americans who have absolutely no feelings of vertigo: they are the ones you see happily running around on a girder 30 storeys high, building a skyscraper. I envied them.

But how would this tie in with the dreaded "LMF" in WWII? I was never in Bomber Command during the war. But later in "Air Tragic" (nice one, Nutty!) met many who frankly admitted that they were terrified all the time on the thirty-odd trips of their tour of ops, They forced themselves to carry on because of the even greater fear of the humiliating treatment meted out to those who bravely confessed to "Lack of Moral Fibre".

I'd like some input here from any of the (few) survivors.

Danny.

[pr00ne]

Whilst flying per se never actually frightened me, though I frightend myself and the talking ballast a few times, I have to confess to a real fright, if not absolute terror, of the ejection seat.
From the first time I sat on one in a Jet Provost T3 to my last ever toom flight I was constantly afraid of the thing, nervous of it, with a strong but thankfully well suppressed urge to pull the handle. This “urge” was deep in my physicy and was at it’s very worst about an hour before I clambered onboard and an hour afterwards. Whilst bothered by the explosive violent nasty things, at least when airborne I had a lot to distract me and to relegate the terror to a nagging uncomfortableness at the back of my mind. But just before and after I hated the idea of sitting on one and fixated on pulling the handle.

Oddly, and deeply ironically, after a gap of flying post RAF I went for a flight with a friend in a Cessna 150 and can even now recall the horrible and uncomfortable realisation, as we crossed the upwind threshold, that as I had no ejection seat, if something went wrong I was riding it down with no escape.

Never felt that way in an airliner or biz jet though.

Danny42c,

A fascinating question that raises many many more, as a subject for study and debate.

[ORAC]

One of my bosses in the FC Branch was Nick B*****y, ex-Lightning pilot. Grounded himself as a Flt Lt, but rose to (at least) Gp Capt as an F.C.

His story was that he was becoming more and more nervous about his flying and the, when on QRA, found himself passing 5000ft in the climb withoutout being able to recall anything about how he got there from the shed.

Once he got back on the ground he went to see his Sqn Boss, explained he couldn’t do it any more and handed over his wings. They tried to persuade him to take some time off, see the medics etc, but he stuck to his guns and never, as he claimed, regretted his decision.

p.s. Just doing some research to see if he is still around, I see he was at the 2014 WIWOL reunion. Aged well if hair very white....

[Pontius Navigator]

Pru00ne, know what you mean about bang seats though oddly I wasn't worried by the F4 or Lightning but the Canberra in the back when I had to strap in having unstrapped.

[LOMCEVAK]

I find this an incredibly humbling thread. Over the years I have flown with crew have been nervous when flying and I have always tried to fly in such a way that I did not exacerbate their discomfort. I have known others who would often find productive work to avoid being on the flying programme and some who had a very high rate of declaring themselves unfit to fly. Hopefully I have never put any pressure on them and I praise the openness of those who have described their feelings here.

I am at the other extreme of the scale and have a deep seated fear of being unable to fly. I have watched friends be killed in air display accidents and I have had to lead a formation home after the leader crashed. I have to get back on the horse as soon as I can and get back in the air and fly as I always do as soon as I can. This is not bravado or disrespectful but I find it very stressful across my whole life if I am not able to. Most aircrew fear the power that doctors hold over our flying careers and I have had temporary medical restrictions and groundings which have been amongst the most stressful and emotional experiences of my life. There never appeared to be any real consideration of the mental health impact of such actions, no offers of counselling. I am sure that there will be some cynics who may not understand that there are two sides to this coin but please accept what I have said as being an issue that does need to be considered.

[Pontius Navigator]

Lomvak, on aircrew avoiding flying, this was quite common in the V-Force. Usually it related to guesting on a strange crew. Typically someone would go sick. Almost inevitably a second on the sqn in the same category would also go sick.

[ACW599]

Most aircrew fear the power that doctors hold over our flying careers and I have had temporary medical restrictions and groundings which have been amongst the most stressful and emotional experiences of my life. There never appeared to be any real consideration of the mental health impact of such actions, no offers of counselling. I am sure that there will be some cynics who may not understand that there are two sides to this coin but please accept what I have said as being an issue that does need to be considered.

One of the truest and most profound statements ever written on PPRuNe. I've known several colleagues to who it applies word for word, as well as myself on occasions. Aviation medics can be colossally insensitive.

[safetypee]

I wonder if this thread has misinterpreted the context of ‘scared of flying’ as fear? An alternative is ‘fearfulness’ involving awareness, projection, and preparation, both of personal capability and situation risks.
“Never forget to be afraid” James Reason.

Having known the author as ‘boss’ and friend, I hope he will forgive the following. Outward personality could be interpreted as being ‘mad’, as in mad scientist, or very intelligent and capable. I favoured the latter, suspecting that to be scared of flying was much more to do with fearfulness and being well prepared, particularly in those flying posts identified.
Whilst there was an apparent willingness to engage with risk, - a necessary requirement for learning, gaining experience, and progress, this was done with risk awareness and judgement.

When flying, risks have to be identified and understood, and judged to minimise or avoid the extremes.
This alone is a demanding task, which with continuous engagement can be stressful.
Pilots need to be ‘fearful’ in order to acquire the skill of awareness and judging risk. The process has to be balanced between being overly cautious - stressed out, and engaging in unwarranted or unnecessary risk.
High performance flying is very demanding and over time can induce ‘risk fatigue’, at such times we all need time out.

One concern in modern aviation, particularly in civil flying, is that new pilots do not have opportunity to engage with higher levels of risk, to gain experience and practice the judgement required in demanding situations. As a result of these lower levels there is opportunity for higher stress levels (fear).
Training and the level of experience has to be sufficient for the envisaged task - management’s responsibility; similarly individuals have to prepare themselves - aspects of airmanship. A critical aspect is not to be ‘overly fearful’ of the unknown, but still never forgetting to be afraid. Make the unknown known.

”Whether you succeed or not is irrelevant - there is no such thing. Making your unknown known is the important thing - and keeping the unknown always beyond you.
You and I don’t know whether our vision is clear in relation to our time or not - No matter what failure or success we may have - we will not know - But we can keep our integrity - according to our own sense of balance with the world and that creates our form”. Georgia O’Keeffe.

[LOMCEVAK]

safetypee,

This may be slight thread drift but if I may continue with your theme.

I grew up in an era when the phrase 'risk assessment' was not used. We talked about and implemented 'safety'. 'Process' was what was applied to some cheese and meat. We used judgement, common sense, experience. We had a sense of self preservation. We developed 'Airmanship'. Now, we blindly follow process and regulation. The format of a risk assessment and the process of its generation is often more important than its content, and if the overall assessment is 'low' then everyone is happy because nothing will go wrong. I cannot in my heart of hearts operate like that. I still have hairs on the back of my neck which, from time to time, stand up when I am confronted with a situation that is 'legal'; perhaps that is the fearfulness to which you refer. Without it, I may not still be here. I sometimes face difficulties when I refuse to do something that is 'within the regulations' because I consider it to be the wrong thing to do and potentially unsafe. Recently I have been asked to consider undertaking two different flying activities, both of which my judgement told me had risks that I was not prepared to take; I had a fear of those tasks but I am certainly not scared of flying. I convinced the sponsors of these tasks that they were not sensible. In a recent anonymous flight safety survey there was a question asking what I thought would be the cause of our next accident. I said not applying judgement and just blindly following regulations and process; could that be better phrased as a lack of fear? It is an interesting and valuable interpretation of this word that safetypee has given us.

[Tankertrashnav]

Sitting strapped in in the back of a Whirlwind, feet dangling out of the door as we flew back to Kai Tak over the New Territories of Hong Kong (mainly open country in those days) I was happy as a sandboy.

All of a sudden we were over the built up area of Kowloon with skyscrapers seeming to rise up to meet us. I was immediately terror struck and crawled back into the far corner of the cabin.

Totally illogical, as a 1,000 foot drop onto open country would have had the same result as dropping into a street or building, but my brain just didn't seem to see it that way

When I was flying in the back of a Victor tanker I don't ever remember feeling scared, but about once a week I had what I understand is a common "anxiety " dream - being flown at low level a few feet above the ground, going underneath power cables etc and in imminent danger of crashing. When I left the RAF this dream stopped and I have only had rare recurrences over the years

Odd dream for me, our flying was very rarely anywhere near the ground - on tankers we considered FL250 as low level!

[Roadster280]

I go through phases. Although I have only ever been SLF, I’ve done quite a lot of flying. In the mob, on MAOTs. Hell, I used to take helicopters to work! Pumas would come and pick us up at Upavon and off to wherever the ex was. Flew in many different helos, Wokkas, SKs, Wessexes, Chicken Legs, Scout, Pumas, Lynx, UH-1 (German), CH-53 (German), UH-70(US). Fixed wing, Hercs, Transall (German), Tristar and VC-10. Never a problem at all.

Then in the 90s I flew to Malta on Holiday from Köln-Bonn. On the way back over the Alps, the flight encountered terrible turbulence. It was scheduled to stop at Munich, and I said to my then wife I was getting off there, and I’ll take the train back. No way in hell I was getting back on that aircraft. As luck would have it, they binned the Munich stop and landed at Köln first. I guess the weather was just too bad to go to Munich first. I didn’t fly again for about 12 years.

I divorced and remarried, and my wife inveigled me into going to the US on holiday. 747. I sat there for 8hrs or whatever it was gripping the armrests with white knuckles. Landed and all was well. I was fine then for years. So much so that when I left the mob and got a job that involved travel, I ended up with about 550,000 flown miles on BA and 1.2M flown miles on Delta (having moved to the US). I think that works out to about 3,000 hours. I would take planes like some people take buses. I’ve crossed the Atlantic a couple hundred times now.

Then I moved to the Knoxville area, and to go anywhere, you pretty much have to take a flight to Atlanta or Detroit and onward from there. It’s only a 27 minute flight to ATL, but I did one about a year ago that scared me again. Every bit as bad as over the Alps. It was a CRJ-70, blown about like a paper aeroplane. I haven’t needed to fly as much recently, but when I do, I look for the flights operated by aircraft type, not schedule. Some ATL flights are 717s. Much larger aircraft. I just don’t do well in turbulence, and the larger aircraft seem to handle it better. Don’t know how much truth there is to that. Then again I’ve been in a 76 that was blown about like a paper aeroplane.

So, I’m a Delta Million Miler, and I hate flying :)

[Saintsman]

I only really had one worrying moment (not that I have a huge amount of flying under my belt) and that was when I was doing my PPL. After a solo flight, I veered off the runway as soon as I touched down and I didn’t know why. Quite rightly they had me straight back up with an instructor but I couldn’t do the landing and had to give back control. I didn’t like it at all. Definitely scared.
However, next day I was more than happy to fly and had no problem with the landing. I was lucky I guess as unlike some on here, I didn’t have a career to worry about, which must have compounded their problems.

[Tiger G]

Being someone who suffers from claustrophobia, I'd be interested to hear if anyone suffered from this when the canopy closes ??

[Herod]

Tiger G. I can't comment on the canopy closing, but in the airline world the locked flight-deck door after 9/11 was for me a psychological thing. I knew I could open it any time I wanted from the inside, but the fact that when the cabin crew gave the final checks before start, and then locked the door, it had a strange effect on me. A bit of claustrophobia I guess?

[mikemmb]

I am not sure about a direct link between a Fear of Flying and a Fear of Heights.
Certainly in my case I have never been afraid of actually flying itself (although I have certainly been afraid in some scary situations).
In fact I have even laid face down on a perspex window at height watching the world go by below me with nothing solid at all in my peripheral vision.

But I do have a fear of heights, to the extent that I can get queezy standing on a chair! When I was younger I tried desperately to get rid of it by going mountain climbing and abseiling etc, but to no avail. I cope with it by simply focusing on overcoming it .......until something breaks the concentration!
So as has been said, it seems to be related to being in contact with the ground.

However during my time in Cyprus I did a lot of snorkling in the crystal clear blue sea (with panoramic views of the bottom a long way down) and this often gave me vertigo, which was tricky to deal with ......nothing to hold on to!
So not sure how this fits in?

[Onceapilot]

Certainly, I would say that piloting is exciting and demanding. However, most forms of flying can be downright dangerous in certain circumstances and different people will have different perceptions and thresholds of acceptable risk, some of which will be at a subconscious level. AFAIU, the subconscious concerns can cause problems when sufficiently triggered. I experienced problems with this after years of dangerous FJ flying. Even if the individual is very keen on flying, the sudden manifestation of symptoms, that the sufferer has little control over, can be devastating. :uhoh:
Interestingly, much later in my career I found the stress of poor work/life balance and overtask/overload at work (flying, teaching, examining, paperwork, rule bending/breaking, wars etc...) difficult to manage at a conscious level. This did not precipitate unwanted behaviour but, left me feeling overstretched and overstressed. :\

OAP

[gileraguy]

A little thread drift, but I recall Andy Green stating that prior to his record setting run in the Thrust SSC, he was "violently ill" fighting nervousness... And he was A Phantom Pilot and Squadron Leader...

[Dan Winterland]

I never been nervous of flying. But soon after my second child was born, I had two very near mid air collisions in the space of 3 days which made me question what I was doing flying with a young family to support. And after a lightning strike which gave me a big electric shock, I have since always been nervous when flying near cumulo-nimbus clouds.

I once had a student, who was reluctant to handle the aircraft other than very gently. He had stated that his aim was to go onto heavies and not fast jets. But one day, I noticed his hands were shaking as we were walking for the first spinning sortie and I realised he was very nervous. And one day when I was DI, I watched one of his solos on the radar. He just flew around in gentle level circles until it was time to come back to do some circuits. One day, I mentioned to him that if he didn't think it was for him then there was no shame in withdrawing. He seemed relieved that I has realised his problem, but he said he wanted to carry on. In the end, he failed the end of course check and decided that he didn't want to do a re-take. I saw him a few years later where he was very happy as a supply officer.

One of my colleagues in my current airline had previously voluntarily withdrawn himself from TWU through nerves, leaving the RAF. He was a nervous airline pilot too. Mind you, he wasn't the luckiest guy. If anyone was going to have an engine failure at V1, it would be him. He quit flying and I last heard he was a maths teacher in a secondary school in Glasgow - which doesn't strike me as being very safe!

[ShyTorque]

A few thoughts after almost forty years of flying for a living...

I was once, in my youth, told by an AEF pilot I was a natural pilot. I flew an RAF flying scholarship at the age of 17 and found it easy. I desperately wanted to fly fast jets but to my surprise I hated RAF flying training on the JP. In fact I hated the whole BFTS jet training environment. Having worked as a builder's labourer for a couple of years before joining up and having very much learned to stand up for myself whilst doing so, I resented the bullying way it was carried out. I found myself becoming very stressed at times before flying and desperately wanted to punch the lights out of one particular QFI, who looking back, very much deserved it and probably shouldn't have been instructing. The system back then didn't really accept character clashes so I had to put up with the idiot for some time. I know Beagle found similar issues during his training, it wasn't just me. Faulty sinuses eventually resulted in me losing my medical. More stress, until I eventually found myself on RW, where the training system was run in a more adult fashion and I regained my enthusiasm for flying.

I've never been scared of flying, but I have been worried about launching at times. I've never been scared of heights either in or out of the cockpit, but I did feel a bit strange on a couple of occasions, once when orbiting power station cooling towers and looking down into the black hole of one and another time on task orbiting a very deep sinkhole where an old lead mine had just collapsed and the aircraft's night sun beam didn't seem to reach the bottom!

I too have suffered the recurring dream where I was flying down a long city street, below the rooftops and on trying to climb to safe altitude, being trapped by multiple power cables stretched above. That occurred often after an IMC event where I was flown over water avoiding one set of power lines below and suddenly realised we were under another higher set at the same time....

I also went through a period of operational flying in NI where I knew every flight might be the last. This thought occurred every wet, gloomy day at the armoury while loading the magazines of my Browning 9mm and my SA-80. We were suffering a period of very poor weather and because of it we had to fly all day in the high "PK" (probability of kill) zone for small arms fire at a time of high IRA activity. The worry of being shot down was ever present, the thought of being used as a political pawn after possible capture by the IRA was, too. The politics of the time played down the threat, we knew it was very real, aircraft were being brought down and the IRA hated helicopter crews with a vengeance. Soldiers were being murdered...in the UK. The rules of engagement were difficult, the thought of being prosecuted for firing back was also of some great concern, especially as precedents had been set.

Two of my RAF instructional tours involved teaching major emergencies on a full motion simulator. One day it suddenly occurred to me that I had become totally de-sensitised to crashing. After all, we always survived them and after resetting the sim, just carried on and had another go. I had to give myself a severe talking to about that! Possibly a unique scenario.

These days, in civvie street, the job is often demanding, especially in the winter bad weather, but the main concerns are not getting the job done, or rather, telling the aircraft owner we're not able to launch. Also not busting the ever increasing rules brought in by EASA whilst doing so....

[lsh]

Scared OF flying OR Scared WHILE flying?

Two different things, in my view.

Lots of the latter, but very few big scares; generally over in a moment.

As Shytorque says, Northern Ireland needed sustained mental effort to keep going effectively.

Courage has been talked about as "Cold" courage and "Hot" courage.
If you can accept that notion; "cold" is where the mind finds it hard.
Certainly, pre-event nerves can get a hold.
There is nothing like a course to get you going up & down in the mental stakes!

lsh
:E

[diginagain]

I'm another one who has a recurring nightmare involving urban areas and overhead wires.

While I can't admit to experiencing a fear of flying - other than during my Lynx conversion - as I got older I became more aware of my mortality, thus becoming increasingly circumspect about how far to push the limits, especially in NI.

[NutLoose]

The strange thing about height was if I was hoping around on and off a Ten pylon or up a tall ladder the thing would frighten me, however shinning up the side of a Wessex or working on the decking of the Puma and Chinook never bothered me, I suppose it was over a set height it effects me, however when the Pumas shed the doors after the Norway incident I transited down the UK in a Puma at 7000 feet sitting in the door seats facing nothing but a big hole and bar being a tad cold, the view and height didn't bother me.

Flying has never bothered me strangely enough.

[roving]

During WWII on bomber command the pejorative description of those who expressed a fear of flying was that they "lacked moral fibre".

My dad was a flt cmdr on 267 in KL in the mid to late 1950's having originally been posted there as the Sqn QFS (the squadron was quite large with 4 or 5 different types of aircraft). Two of the Sqn Ldrs on the Sqn were WWII decorated Lancaster pilots. One had flown on one of the Tirpitz raids -- the one where they flew via Russia. My dad was a WWII fighter recon spitfire pilot in Italy.

So there was no lack of moral fibre on the part of those managing the Sqn.

When a first tourist lost his nerve and refused to fly the Pioneers into jungle forts claiming the aircraft were unsafe, he was up for the high jump. My dad, whose previous posting was as a Univ Sqn iCFI, was very sympathetic and attempted to save him. The outcome: the pilot was posted home in disgrace and my dad was viewed as a Quisling.

During the 1950's the attrition rate amongst RAF pilots was so high, it is remarkable that more pilots did not lose their nerve, but I suspect that few openly discussed their fears.

[cargosales]

What a fascinating thread. It should be required reading for any and all involved in any kind of aviation, especially those with responsibility for flight safety.

Refreshingly (brutally?) honest comments from pilots, other aircrew and the all-important ground crew about their own experiences. And no recriminations or put downs, just an understanding that 'it' happens.


Scared OF flying OR Scared WHILE flying?

Two different things, in my view.

lsh


Ahh, now there's a VERY good point ...

I never did very much: PPL (Spamcan), UAS (Bulldog) then VGS (Viking) and I loved flying and never felt the slightest concern pre-flight.

Even if I was scared witless (still am) about the idea of climbing a ladder to check the guttering on my house and had serious kittens about my daughter standing on the glass floor at the top of the CN Tower in YYZ and couldn't do it myself ..

My own experience? It never happened on powered types or when flying dual but latterly, solo on Vikings and just 'bimbling around' i.e. not doing a lot, just soaring, I started to get freaked out because at times I thought I could see myself sitting on the wingtip looking in at myself flying the a/c. (Not hypoxia, this was at 2,000').

Was this because of the lower workload and that my mind wasn't fully occupied or stretched and had too much time to think about silly / irrational things? Or something else?

Wish I'd seen this thread then because I never had the confidence to discuss it with anyone and stopped soon after .. Having a stude trying his best to kill us both on landing may have had something to do with that as well!!

CS

[Danny42C]

TTN (#42),

...."Perchance to dream"...

Of the thousands of dreams I must've had after handing in my flying kit, never once have I dreamed of being in a cockpit again. ........ What can that mean ?

Is there a psychiatrist in the House ?

[beardy]

TTN (#42),

...."Perchance to dream"...

Of the thousands of dreams I must've had after handing in my flying kit, never once have I dreamed of being in a cockpit again. ........ What can that mean ?

Is there a psychiatrist in the House ?

I have, most of the time I am screwing up either in the air or in the sim and then letting myself down by failing.

[superplum]

Re the Title, being an ex-engineer, I never was. Reading this thread, I'm beginning to be!
:(

[blind pew]

Wire dream or nightmare..never read before of it nor told anyone that I have a similar one.
My fear of heights started with my mum hysterically screaming at Simon's Yat..a lovers leap over the Wye. Around the same age, 6, I slept off the roof of our prefab clasping an umbrella having seen a cartoon character do the same..did it hurt. Then a mate impaled himself on the spiked railings whilst conkering opposite Rochford Nick. My fear of heights had sown the seed.
My fear of flying was my first solo at Rochford when no one taught me what to do if I bounced and a PIO. One of the two useless instructors ended up in the CAA.
The month before I started at flying college two dead in a mid air after a controller had resigned because the procedures were dangerous. Two guys on my course had a mid air over the isle of Wight..one of the two areas the whole college fleet were sent to practice air exercises. Dopey
My aerobatic instructor was frightened of unusual attitudes and aeros so I did forced landings.
I joined BEA the month a Vanguard broke up caused by a corrosion problem that had been ignored for two years.
Then I started flying jets with guys who were frightened of the Trident and wouldn't let me try my hand shortly followed by my best mate dying in papa India. The captain had a nervous tick which got worse the closer one got to the runway..there was a joke regarding the radio altimeter.
By that time I was verging on neurotic as I didn't understand the system that put the worst pilots into management, fortunately I was helped by normal line pilots.
6 years on I put out a May Day on a VC 10..close to 40,000ft in a cloudless sky over Pakistan. Eventually I took out the autopilot as a last result as we all thought it would break up..problem solved runaway yaw damper. After that I lost a lot of my fears.
They more or less disappeared over the Pyrenees in severe cat when I was going through a divorce as I realised there was a positive side that I wouldn't have to go back to her indoors.
Later on I did NLP which allowed me to climb to the top of a mast 60ft above the ground.
In between I flew with a captain who had hid in the toilet when the destination went out in fog, various guys who were petrified, those with nervous to ticks, alcoholics and the worst was a 54 year old on a RIO with a double crew..he was so frightened he wouldn't go into the crew bunk nor fly the leg. Poor sod confided his fear but had another 6 months to get his pension. Died 3 months after retiring.
Had a mate who had a severe skin disorder and popped antidepressants..left and within a year was a fleet chief and trainer in the gulf..skin healed..would get his mates to check him out, write his own rosters to safe destinations and fly with experienced co pilots of his choice.
I lost my license and got into gliders..mountain flying, instructing and acrobatics. Wearing a parachute helped a lot but avoided close proximity to other aircraft as have had far too many lucky airmisses. Paraglide as well now..reserve is usable above 400ft whereas gliders it's above 2,000 ft realistically.
Still get frightened especially when I see better men than me crash but absolutely no pressure to fly in crap conditions.
Last flight last week was another fearful one having seen a video of an accident caused by wind shear..Kelvin - Helmholtz effect and flew into the same turbulence myself...5 minutes of trying to get down in one piece.
Of the 32 guys who graduated with me none kept flying after they retired..food for thought.

[OJ 72]

Having operated both FJ and RW as a navigator in the RAF the only recurring dream about anything bad happening whilst flying always involves being in a helicopter and attempting to climb out of a confined area that is criss-crossed with wires.

During my flying career, I never had any worries whatsoever about being strapped into an ejection seat and flying at 420+ kts at 100 feet (or thereabouts!) above the sea and, initially, whilst operating the 'mighty Wessex' in NI I was totally content and always looked forwards to being on the flying programme (although sharing a 'well-appointed' portacabin with 'Tommy' or 'The Dark Shadow/Sylvia’ - who could both snore for England - never filled me with glee!).

What changed was the result of watching a poorly Wessex being lifted out of Y453 by Chinook. It was only then, that despite my poor grasp of PoF, I suddenly realised that 'the big green arrow' went through the MGB which, in turn, was held to the fuselage by what appeared nothing more than three rather large bolts. After that I was always wary of any over-exuberant manoeuvring, constantly admonishing the less experienced members of the 'two-winged master race' for throwing 'Walter' too harshly around the blue skies of the Beloved Province.

Regarding spouse’s thoughts on the risks of flying (which I don't think has been discussed yet), it was only until I had been stuck behind a desk for a few years that my wife told me that when I was flying the Buccaneer she was convinced that every day I left the house it would be the last time she would see me alive, but that she never once had that feeling when I was on RW! Now I find that strange…perhaps she had just got used to idea of what my job entailed?

As for a being passenger in commercial airlines...I hate every moment of it!. Should it be 55 mins from London to Belfast or 8 hours across the pond, I am constantly as nervous as a kitten!! Unless of course I self-medicate with lashings and lashings of Sauvignon Blanc or Pinot Grigio. NB... other self-medications are available!

[lynas]

My father-in-Law was RAAF and flew 49 'Ops' during WWII, including Dresden. He died young in his sixties of cancer, somewhat slowly and painfully. His fear was of what his flying had done to others and what his God would say as he entered those Heavenly gates. He viewed his flying as a reason for his early death. Whatever I encountered in my time in the RAF could never match his convictions.

[Coltishall. loved it]

I'm not a great lover of heights and working up on the VC10 engines used to give me the willies even though I loved it, one of the most frightening times was letting myself slide off the side of the engines and drop onto the safety raiser next to the fire extinguisher housing... It got even more frightening when it was raining or when deiced as gloss paint, deciing fluid and water made the whole thing like an ice rink, top that off with having safety harnesses in stores but nowhere to actually to clip them.


1982 ish. Brize, base hangar. Was doing an airframe repair on stubwing, 16ft plus a/c on jacks. Fell off, landed on hangar floor and broke both wrists, elbo and cheekbone after doing a back-flip. Funny old thing, the staging was modified soon after? Bless the lads, they painted one off them dead men on the floor where I landed! (the GS I had with me was never found?)

[wub]

I flew gliders from the age of 13, soloed at sixteen and flew at many gliding clubs around UK and at Kingsfield in Cyprus with the RAFGSA. It was whilst serving in Cyprus that I did a free-fall parachute course at Kingsfield. It had been a long time ambition to parachute but I hated it. I took off in a DH Beaver ten times but never landed in one. I finished the course because I didn’t want to bottle it.

My problems started when I resumed gliding at Kingsfield after the course. Almost every time I flew, especially in the open cockpit T21, I felt I might jump over the side and had my straps done up extra tight to ‘prevent’ it. I eventually felt so uncomfortable with this feeling that I stopped gliding all together.

As an aside, my wife and I stayed in a room near the top of the tallest hotel in Singapore. It had a balcony and when we went outside we both stood with our backs pressed firmly against the wall. I asked her why she was doing it (I knew why I was doing it) and she told me she was scared that she might throw herself over the railing, which was exactly how I felt.

I have no problems with commercial flying and have flown aeros in a JP, laid flat in the nose of a Canberra, staring straight down and have sat in the open door of Whirlwinds and Wessex but recalling being in an open cockpit T21, I still get chills.

[X767]

As a student at Valley in the early 60’s I had Tony as my instructor. Maybe his nervousness may be placed at my door, but his professionalism and instructional ability did their work. His 4.5 Bentley was always a highlight of the journey to the mess after a hectic days flying.

[Pontius Navigator]

I think my fear of piloting stemmed from my one go in the primary glider at school. Being shot across the sports field trying to keep the wings level did it for me.

[Herod]

It's interesting that this thread has digressed to dreams. After my breakdown, discussed earlier, I had a series of dreams I was flying very low and slow, among buildings. Not dangerous, since it was all so slow. Over the space of a few weeks, the aircraft progressed in reverse order through my career. After one involving the JP, they stopped. Something Freudian?

[Onceapilot]

Must admit, I have the "flying under wires" type dreams. :eek: Sometimes they are high in the sky, you just can't win!
All very strange. I suspect it all just shows you how complicated the mind is! :)

OAP

[Hydromet]

Not a pilot, but on one job in PNG, we did a lot of flying in Bell 47 helicopters. The night before one flight, I dreamed that we flew over the company admin. offices and crashed. Didn't worry too much, as our planned route didn't go near them, but on the next day's flight, because of low cloud, we were forced to fly right over them. I did have a slight twinge of anxiety that my dream may have been a premonition.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Top thread with some excellent links. As an ex-squaddie, my opinion of the Basic Flying Training set-up on Jet Provosts was identical to ShyTorques; fortunately not all the QFIs were creamies or ex-V-Force though, and the good ones kindly steered me toward my first choice of Rotary. Shawbury was a different world, probably because they knew that the people they sent out to OCU and Sqn still as Plt Offs would be placed in positions of responsibility as a/c commanders much sooner than the FJ or multi folk.

Up until 3 years ago I also occasionally had the (often-vivid) dream of being in an urban or mountainous area with multiple wires and cables hemming me in overhead. However, now that I work right next to the damn things every day I find that particular dream no longer returns. Chatting to the linesmen and technicians who actually go up the poles and towers (pylons) to do the real work just reminds me how useless I am when at height without a helicopter strapped to my back.

One of my QHIs - it might've been Oldbeefer from these environs - once said that having a strong imagination is a disadvantage for helicopter pilots. A sense of realism certainly helps, but the constant projection of worst-case outcomes would be crippling. As has been shown by the admirably-brave correspondents earlier in this thread.

Oh, and wub: - I too did my parachuting at Kingsfield. Just 4 descents; the Brigadier's wife then complained about the Beaver getting airborne in fine pitch just after sunrise each day (it became too turbulent for ab-initio students after about 1000), and he had the course cancelled. A useful lesson in senior officers and their priorities :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

Thud, interesting that your opinion of RAF BFTS matches mine. You might be aware that we were at the same location, at the same time.

[NutLoose]

1982 ish. Brize, base hangar. Was doing an airframe repair on stubwing, 16ft plus a/c on jacks. Fell off, landed on hangar floor and broke both wrists, elbo and cheekbone after doing a back-flip. Funny old thing, the staging was modified soon after? Bless the lads, they painted one off them dead men on the floor where I landed! (the GS I had with me was never found?)

I was about when the guy got his head smashed by a spoiler, though never saw it.

[ImageGear]

While sitting well above the ridge at SGU Portmoak in a K13 in the late 60's, I got the "suspended in the middle of a fishbowl effect. I felt like I was hovering in nothing but a void. It was quite scary until the feeling passed in a few seconds. I never experienced the problem while in the RAF, flying on ex in everything.

Later, I had the same experience in a Piper Arrow in the cruise in perfectly still air but I found I was able to rationalise it away by concentrating on the coaming and resisting the urge to look over the side.

Not long after, I became absolutely panic stricken leaving the ground in any kind of commercial aircraft at all. Becoming violently ill and with ferocious diarrhoea, the symptoms of which started up to a week before I had to fly. In those days I could usually wangle a trip to the flight deck where the fear of the aircraft breaking up almost immediately disappeared. It took several years for the fear to subside and now it has almost gone.

Severe turbulence no longer has me gripping the seat and needing to get to the head at the risk of bouncing of the ceiling.

IG

[seven g]

Haven't read all the responses in this thread but the RAF had a 'treatment' programme for pilots with flying phobias - at least in the early 70s. My understanding was that once a pilot 'fessed up - presumably at medical time, they were assessed by a clinical psychologist. After that they would attend CFS Rissy where the Flying Doc (Gordon Smith at the time) would gradually expose them to the aspect of flight that caused the problem. This was all done at Standards Flt (not exam wing) where there was a constant through-put of refresher QFI training going on. The two JP standards QFIs flew with them also as I recall. It wasn't talked about much so I suppose most waterfront QFIs and students assumed they were there for refresher training. I spoke to a few that were from F4, Lighting & Herc I think. Problems ranged from flying over water to high altitude. Gordon died in a Meteor accident a few years later - I don't think he was replaced at Rissy so maybe the programme was canned?

[ORAC]

There was a Shak pilot in its last couple of years who grounded himself because he was afraid to fly it any more. They sen him down to see a senior psychiatrist and he took his logbook with and showed him the number of Exemgencies and Maydays’ in it during the previous 6 months. The reported psychiatric assessment was that he was totally sane - and anyone still willingly flying the Shak was mad.

IIRC he got a posting to either the VC-10 or Tristar fleet.

[treadigraph]

Also not a pilot. I am terrified of heights yet am absolutely fine in airliners and used to love flying in light aircraft; I did a bit of gliding way back and was perfectly happy doing tight turns in thermals. However in recent years I've become distinctly uncomfortable with any kind of steep turn.

I can only assume the fear is a result of not flying much recently combined with witnessing several airshow accidents that involved a stall. Also reading too many accident reports I dare say...

[unmanned_droid]

Flying has never been an issue. But then I haven't done much of anything that could be considered 'interesting'. My worst experience was trying to maintain formation on an aircraft being flown by the unit CO - it could all end if I get it wrong.

For me, if I am taking a risk and it's only exposing myself to that risk, I'm ok, but I'm totally different if I'm exposing anyone else to the same risk. Responsibility I suppose.

As I've got older I've developed some 'knowledge induced' vertigo. I also have become fearful of overbalancing and falling down escalators when I get on them.

[glad rag]

MoparDave, my old job also required us to work at heights above flowing water, and it was never a thing that worried me. Also, I was quite happy to work high on a ladder or in a harness dangling off a bridge. However, with age, I've developed what seems to me a quite rational fear of working on high ladders. I suspect it's because I'm aware that my balance, reaction time and coordination are probably not what they were.

Indeed. I developed a hatred for practicing ladder rescues (for inside wind turbines) as there were so many ways to make a simple but potentiality fatal error....I was fine and dandy up top and outside and inside for the confined spaces advanced rescue training..I too find it extremely difficult to climb a ladder above the first floor..
I think it is correct as you age you develop reason lol..

[Davita]

Many times when civilians know you were an aviator you get questions so I developed standard answers like ...
Q. What was the most exciting moment of your career?
A. Payday.
Q. What was your most dangerous moment?
A. Crossing the tarmac.
Q. Why don't you wear a wedding ring?
A. I'm scared it will rip my finger if I have to exit using the slides.
Q. During T.O. what are you thinking?
A. How's the stock market.

Of course this was all false bravado...

I also get scared looking over the balcony but never from an aircraft.
I also dream about flying between buildings and cables.

I thought I was the only one and never divulged this so it gives me great consolation I'm not alone.
Thanks to all who had the guts to respond to their fears...:ok:

[dook]

I was flying again (single seat) two days after my ejection.

Never thought twice about it.

[AR1]

Im not sure if knowing a little about flying is a curse or a blessing. I count the runway markers on takeoff, and have done enough SLF to know most of the noises, and in Civ life I travel with work. So 'odd' things make me uncomfortable. Got caught out sat next to the galley at the back of a Northwest A320 and during the climbout one of the trollys came out and hit the other side of the galley with a huge bang. - That woke me up and I was on edge for the duration.
Had a wibble when walking out to an Alitalia MD80 - Id got used to not walking to the plane, and when I got there looking at this thing, I lost my nerve, well almost. I had no choice but to come home and spent 2 hours waiting for the thing to roll onto its back and plummet earthwards.
I never had any issue with climbing into something painted matt green/grey - Misplaced confidence perhaps, but I thought if you were half as good at your job as I was at mine, we were safe :\

Apart from Helecopters, I genuinly dont like helecopters. I had a 'window full of mountain' moment in the Falklands. Not been in one since.

[Mogwi]

Yep, me too on the overhead wires! Flying between houses with wires above and/or not the performance to zoom through any holes. Not too bad in a Harrier ... but bloody difficult in a 747! Usually ended up taking the wings off against buildings but no one seemed to mind.

Used to have combat-induced nightmares as well but thankfully they passed a long time ago.

[MPN11]

I will tiptoe in with a couple of comments, as a non-pilot. The disconnect between flying and being on Earth is clearly strong with me.

Flying. Never a twitch when Air Cadets or PPL. The only bit I didn't like was spinning in the TM, in the back seat, where i had the sensation I was actually above the top wing. Passenger flying ... oh, about 500,000 miles, and these days doing about 40k-60k a year. Utterly detached, I really don't think about the wonder of flying [or perils] at all, although I'm always alert and focussed on takeoff and landing. I just read my Kindle or watch the IFE (if it's working, BA). Although the 30º AOB turns in a hold can generate an odd feeling, so I don't look out of the window!

Heights. My stomach seriously turns when I see images [still or moving] of people in high places [buildings, mountains or whatever]. Always has done. Buster Keaton hanging on that clock-face ... aargh. And you can forget the Grand Canyon! I can [could] get up a ladder to 1st floor guttering, but that was about it - and quite comfortable. I used to have to pressure-wash our roof in Surrey, due to pine needles, which fortunately had a very shallow pitch (20º?). I would happily drag the Karcher around on the single-storey bit, but the 2-storey part was challenging ... especially when I got anywhere near the edge, when it became crawling on hands and knees.

[Al-bert]

Yep, me too on the overhead wires! Flying between houses with wires above and/or not the performance to zoom through any holes. Not too bad in a Harrier ... but bloody difficult in a 747! Usually ended up taking the wings off against buildings but no one seemed to mind.


Ah, you wouldn't believe the wires they'd put over the street where I grew up.
In my dream I'd only landed (helo) to visit my mother and I'm sure the wires weren't there when I landed! Still, not nearly such fun as the JCB I was flying one night, back home here in SW Wales :ok:

[camelspyyder]

I must admit that the flying didn't scare me, even getting airborne 30 hours after the fleet's worst catastrophe; it was the consequences of making an error that I couldn't cope with in my last 9 months. I am however very scared of heights. I couldn't even sit on the edge of the Los Gigantes harbour next to the lovely SWMBO yesterday.

[MPN11]

Another Earth/Sky disconnect! Quite surprising how many are evidenced here.

[kintyred]

A little thread drift, but I recall Andy Green stating that prior to his record setting run in the Thrust SSC, he was "violently ill" fighting nervousness... And he was A Phantom Pilot and Squadron Leader...

He famously nearly wiped out at Mt Alice in an F4 when doing a slow flypast. He learnt about downdraughting air from that!

[MightyGem]

I'm another one who has a recurring nightmare involving urban areas and overhead wires.
So am I! Although mine also included finding myself under a tree canopy trying to find a way through the branches. I also used to dream about things like landing and then having the aircraft fall over on to it's side. It got to the point where, in the dream, I would tell myself that it was ok, it was only a dream. The dreams faded after I retired.

I was never scared of flying, but I did get rather uncomfortable when flying a Jet Ranger at 10,000ft with the doors off in light turbulence. Even after the incident when a Lynx shed a blade I was quite happy to fly one the following day.

The only time that I really, really didn't want to fly was after the Glasow Police Helicopter crash. I was flying the same type with NPAS(National Police Air Service),and they decided to send us and our aircraft up there more or less straight away as a temporary replacement. I was up there for a few days and was quite happy that I only flew once. That feeling took a while to go away. I think that it was the inexplicable nature of the accident that was the problem.

[cavuman1]

I was a relatively low-time PPL-SEL (maybe 200 hours) in 1979 when a friend who was flying Evergreen 206 LR's to a test oil rig off the coast of Georgia said he would teach me to fly "frantic palm trees". I had accumulated four hours and could hover clumsily but handle other flight regimes satisfactorily when he called one Sunday morning to ask if I'd like to bring my wife and 9-year-old son on a sight-seeing tour. Hell yes, I would!

We flew for an hour doing some low-level (10') high-speed passes over the marshes, rivers, and ocean, and some fairly high G aerobatic work. We were on long final, three minutes from KSSI (McKinnon St. Simons). We had received permission to land and were descending through 2,000'. My "friend", a 6,000-hour 'Nam pilot who was flying right seat, came over the intercom and said "Watch this!" He reached for and cycled the Emergency Fuel Cutoff switch. The annunciator panel went from green to orange to red! He had starved the engine of fuel and we were too low to get a restart! This was going to be a genuine autorotation. I turned to my family in the rear seat and yelled "Brace! Brace! Brace!" :eek:

We hit the beach, the skids dug in, the helicopter tipped forward, the main rotor clipped the tail boom off in a neat decapitation which spun us a full 360 degrees. My wife grabbed our son in her arms and exited to the left; the end of still-spinning main rotor puffed up her hair as it cleared her by an inch! I fumbled with my 5-point restraint for what seemed like hours, then ran like the devil. :\

The starboard fuel bladder had ruptured and was spilling jet-A near the exhaust. The T.O.T. was ~ 700 degrees, the VSI pegged at 2,500 down, and the ASI at 40 knots. We were lucky to be alive...

Some serious adult beverage consumption coupled with general prayers of thanksgiving to anyone listening followed that afternoon, but bright and early the next morning I went alone for an hour's introspective solo in my 152. Had I not, I am not certain that I would have ever flown again. :sad:

I have abseiled and was an ardent skydiver until my then-wife put her foot down and forced me to choose between her and my T-28. I have hung by one foot and one hand 50' above the stage while changing gels and bulbs in theatrical lighting. But get me on a 6' step ladder and it's time for vertigo and acrophobia! Go figure... :confused:

- Ed :)

[Pontius Navigator]

Heights. My stomach seriously turns when I see images [still or moving] of people in high places [buildings, mountains or whatever].

I recall at South Cerney we had a leadership task, get a concrete block on top of a flat roofed building. No idea what the building was but it was two story brick, flat concrete roof and open on one wall. May be it was a machine gun butt, I don't know.

I have no idea if anyone ever got the block on to the roof. The scaffold poles we had were bent and the picket block must have weighed half a ton. Anyway, no harnesses, sky hooks or railing on the roof. I don't recall actually getting on the roof myself but nothing held any fears for me in my inexperienced youth.

[Onceapilot]

[QUOTE=Mogwi;10050770]Yep, me too on the overhead wires! Flying between houses with wires above and/or not the performance to zoom through any holes. Not too bad in a Harrier ... but bloody difficult in a 747! Usually ended up taking the wings off against buildings but no one seemed to mind.
[QUOTE]

Yes, very much the same. Seems almost as if there is a common link here? Wires are well known as a hazard at low level but, so is the ground, birds, poles, AAA and missiles etc. I have hit lots of birds and been shot at but never dream about that. The wires getting in the way seems very specific. Also, the consequences of eventually brushing them or damaging the aircraft don't seem of any importance, no big crash-burn!
Thanks to all who contribute! :ok:

OAP

[622]

I can only speak from a gliding point of view...I spent many happy years...20+, straight and level (and a few turns to!) with no problems...but as soon as somebody wanted to turn things upside down...I was a bag of nerves!
My only dream I seem to have (I stopped gliding 7 years ago)...and fairly often, is that I have turned up to fly...but don't have a medical!


...probably because I feared those nearly as much as aeros! :eek:

[oxenos]

Interesting how so many of us have the same wires / urban areas dreams.
In my case ( ex maritime )the wires scenario makes no sense, as all my low flying was over the sea. Not a lot of overhead wires at 30W.
My version of the urban areas does not involve flying - I am taxying a large aircraft through a lot of narrow winding streets and worrying about the wing tips. (no, I never did have a taxying accident in real life)

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Interesting that Oxenos.. I had a recurring dream a few years ago very similar to yours.. we were flying down a street and I was amazed that we weren't knocking the wingtips off. I never have been able to recall my dreams before but - boom - when I read your post, there it was. Very odd.

[Bergerie1]

Only ever a civil pilot and fortunately never frightened of flying despite having had a very alarming incident. But I have had dreams very similar to some of those mentioned here - being required to land a very large aircraft on a road and then taxi down some streets and needing to be very careful of the wingtips.

[Davita]

I'm repeating that I also had the recurring dream of flying through buildings but always thought it was my memory of reality as many landings of my last 16 years, before retiring, was on R/W 13 at Kai Tak.
I've often witnessed people undressing while turning 40 deg. from the checkerboard approach to line-up with the R/W at below 200 feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gYENf3Zyho

[brakedwell]

I flew anything and everything I could get my hands on and enjoyed them all, but I never liked helicopters. On the few occasions I was forced to to fly in one the thought of all those nuts, bolts and rivets vibrating loose scared the pants off me. I will never forget witnessing a Belvedere explode in the night sky as I approached Khormaksar in an Argosy or sitting next to a young 2nd Lieutenant in an AAC Scout as he demonstrated his prowess with a practice engine failure and auto rotate landing in the Radfan. Looking up at an ancient yellow Sycamore rattling above me while being winched from a dinghy off Bahrain was no fun either. Even at my advanced age I would rather strap myself into and fly a Meteor or Vampire than take a ride in a chopper.

[thing]

I was a techie in the RAF so just did the usual transit flights etc. Never had any problem with those in fixed wing but I never really liked helicopters. It's down to the fact that they dont have wings sticking out to the side. Stupid I know, I'm aware they can autorotate in the event of an engine failure. It's just one of those irrational fears.

I flew gliders for years before doing a PPL and always wore a 'chute when gliding. I remember feeling distinctly unhappy during the first few flights of my PPL at the lack of one. Doesn't bother me now as the chances of getting out of your average spammy with a 'chute on are virtually non existent anyway.

I also hate being up ladders, and even get uncomfortable standing on a chair yet the heights involved in flying don't bother me at all.

The only fear I have when flying is a midair. There are lots of blind spots on light aircraft and there have been a few occasions over the years when I've only been a second or two from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I especially dislike busy circuits. The airfield I fly from has three training organisations on it and it's not unusual to have four or five fixed wing in the circuit, plus a chopper or two doing whatever it is they do, usually being flown by trainees who are maxed out flying the circuit, never mind keeping a good lookout. Needless to say my head swivels like the young lady in the exorcist film.

[lsh]

thing

I do not think your "fear" irrational - quite the opposite.

You answered it yourself, FW has wings, when the engine stops you have a very expensive glider!

I consider helicopters inherently dangerous, both by design and by task.
The manufacturers & operators minimise the risks - but if a helicopter lets-go, it really lets-go, no half measures!

lsh
:E

[roving]

Better if there is a jungle canopy to act as a safety net when the rotors lose power.

I never asked my dad if he had dreams about this accident but he was able to recall it clearly 49 years later when we discussed it.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=155480

[Tankertrashnav]

I've often witnessed people undressing while turning 40 deg. from the checkerboard approach to line-up with the R/W at below 200 feet.


Goodness, I'd have thought they'd have busy enough flying the aircraft without starting to get undressed as well!

(Don't worry, I know what you meant ;))

Many a happy hour on the terrace of the old Carlton hotel with a G & T watching the approach via the checkerboard. Convair 880s and Boeing 707s in those days

[ORAC]

Strangely I have the same dreams of being trapped under wires when flying down city streets. Starts with nothing above then the telephone wires and cross street wires start building up, then you realise the gaps aren’t there to safely climb, so you press on and the start to get thicker....

But the strange things is I have never been a pilot and, apart from one trip, have only flown in the back as a passenger, either in a hello doing winching or as SLF.

So whatever the Freudian dream significance is, it’s not pilot exclusive.

I do remember as a child having vivid dreams of running along and gradually leaping higher till I could fly and soar along. I was told the supposed meaning of those dreams - but have totally forgotten it.....

[MPN11]

Many a happy hour on the terrace of the old Carlton hotel with a G & T watching the approach via the checkerboard. Convair 880s and Boeing 707s in those daysHad the pleasure/privilege in the 'old days' of being invited the flight deck for the 13 approach in a Cathay 747. I think 'interesting' sums it up nicely! It was far more interesting than the 2-3 hours I sent up there chatting to the pilots as we droned across the GAFA ;)

A CAA/NATS business card worked wonders in 1988 :)

[Herod]

It's a shame there isn't a medic about. The prevalence of these dreams would make a wonderful case to study. I thought it was just me, but not so.

[goudie]

I spent 8 years on Canberras as a techie. I flew in them on quite a few occasions and was given the controls on a T4 to do some gentle turns and straight and level. Many years after I left the RAF I too started to have the dream of flying down a street of tall buildings, unable to gain height. Then I had a dream that I was actually a pilot, or everyone thought I was and I'm strapping in carrying out checks etc. and a bit like 'Sparky's Magic Piano', trying to convince those around me that I wasn't a pilot. Thankfully I woke up before take-off!
I currently fly with a friend in his gyrocopter and I love it. Like being on the back of a motorcycle at a 1000ft. He, by the way, is scared of heights!

[blimey]

I have a recurring dream where I'm in Hong Kong being chased under wires and between buildings by a naked blond with a very large bosom. Unfortunately, I get away every time.

[Herod]

Unfortunately, I get away every time.

That counts as a nightmare!! :ok:

[brakedwell]

That counts as a nightmare!! :ok:

As long as the blonde looks like the back end of a bus!

[Davita]

1. Goodness, I'd have thought they'd have busy enough flying the aircraft without starting to get undressed as well!

(Don't worry, I know what you meant ;))

2. Many a happy hour on the terrace of the old Carlton hotel with a G & T watching the approach via the checkerboard. Convair 880s and Boeing 707s in those days

1. I was waiting to see who would understand that quote as our pants were generally soiled (3-man crew team effort)...you are the only one :ok:
2. In those CV880/B707 days after-flight crew would often be in the aero-club garden (corner of the airport) drinking cold Sam-Migs .... and hold out numbered boards to show their appreciation of the approach/landing, especially on a x-wind day. The pilots would see them as they taxied back to the arrival gates.

I lived in a high-rise apartment that had the view directly over the KG5 sports park and also the checker-board clearly ahead.
My dad visited from cold UK and, when I was away on a trip, I'd give him paper and pencil to record all the flight arrivals/delays according to the newspaper's schedule arrival times, and take pictures of aircraft too high or too low. At age 75 he had never previously flown until this trip and never had an interest in aviation..... but was now like a kid with his new-found hobby.

[Davita]

Had the pleasure/privilege in the 'old days' of being invited the flight deck for the 13 approach in a Cathay 747. I think 'interesting' sums it up nicely! It was far more interesting than the 2-3 hours I sent up there chatting to the pilots as we droned across the GAFA ;)

A CAA/NATS business card worked wonders in 1988 :)

I know the GAFA and have flown it numerous times but I'm sure other members would like to hear where it is....and I'd love to hear your explanation of the acronym...:)

[skua]

Great Ancient Forested Area. 😉 Well it's certainly great!

[treadigraph]

GABA is more polite... well, slightly.

[Onceapilot]

It's a shame there isn't a medic about. The prevalence of these dreams would make a wonderful case to study. I thought it was just me, but not so.

Yes! Come on, you Av Med Shrinks, speak-up! :)

OAP

[Herod]

Somebody has to put the "don't know's" out of their misery. Only slightly abridged. "Great Australian **** All" Stretches from about fifty miles west of Sydney to fifty miles east of Perth. (Hides in foxhole, awaiting comments from Adelaide residents)

[ORAC]

It would seem to be common. Just do a search on “dreams flying wires”.

[Onceapilot]

It would seem to be common. Just do a search on “dreams flying wires”.

No, most of those explanations are crap. Even Freud is in there with his sexual problems! :yuk:
Personally, I would think that there is a world of difference between the average person having some of these dreams and, the highly experienced pilot / aircrew having them? OTOH, maybe there isn't?

OAP

[ORAC]

I’d suggest that the main difference, based upon their experience, would be better graphics; rather than a real fear of being trapped flying under wires.

[Davita]

Somebody has to put the "don't know's" out of their misery. Only slightly abridged. "Great Australian **** All" Stretches from about fifty miles west of Sydney to fifty miles east of Perth. (Hides in foxhole, awaiting comments from Adelaide residents)

hehehe...you could have covered yourself by adding.... fifty miles south of Darwin and fifty miles north of Adelaide....
Then you only need to hide from the 29,853 inhabitants of Alice Springs...the geographical centre of the GAFA....:}

[diginagain]

It's a shame there isn't a medic about. The prevalence of these dreams would make a wonderful case to study. I thought it was just me, but not so.I'll bring it up with the team of shrinks I'm currently herding.

[ORAC]

Surely that should be a paranoia of psychiatrists.........

[Onceapilot]

I'll bring it up with the team of shrinks I'm currently herding.

Great. Please explore why such a specific thing should seem to feature? Why, if I am worried about being held back or restricted in love would I dream about problems with wires in the way? Why wouldn't I reflect (dream) on the issue that is supposedly the "cause"? Just interested. :ok:

OAP

[brakedwell]

Dreams can only last milliseconds. I discovered this while I was a student on Piston Provosts at Ternhill in 1956. While enjoying a lie-in on a sunny Sunday morning I dreamed I was in a spin and the controls were not reacting as the Provost descended rapidly out of control. A sharp pain shot through my head when it hit the ground before I woke up to find a half squashed wasp on the pillow and a painful sting on the back of my neck. My brain must have concocted a story between being stung by the wasp and waking up.

[Molemot]

I'm another with the "trapped under wires" thing. In the Japanese animated film "Porco Rosso", there's a scene where the pig hero is taking off in a floatplane from a canal, and it has all the wires and bridges one could wish....or not(!)

[Danny42C]

As I seem to have started this "dream" hare running, should say that my own recurrent dream in my flying days was of flying up a narrow valley below cloud which was covering the ridges on both sides, no room to turn round, don't know what's ahead - and the valley's closing in ! ..... then I wake up.

Flying days ended, dream ended.

[Mikey66]

I am not a 'real' pilot (150hr PPL but a long time ago :() like some of the blokes/gals above but can relate too and enlightening reading (and admire peoples honesty, even if support within the armed forces seem hit and miss?). I thought I was the only one who had these dreams, had all of them (especially the wire one,LL,wires above me, and even when I do climb even more bloody wires!!!, or being in a light aircraft and forgetting how to fly, or in the RHS of a commercial, going through the checks etc and panicking cos i ain't a clue what I am doing but at same time blagging it (never take off though, thank good!) Oh, and flying an aircraft and the AH is all over the show and can't control the aircraft but not quite crashing....). Probably says a lot about my life!

[diginagain]

Flying days ended, dream ended.

Oddly, I don't recall having the wires dream until after I finished flying...

[Misformonkey]

Are wires the biggest threat and within this theme recurring nightmare to modern low level aviation? Genuine interest.

[Fareastdriver]

There isn't half of a flash-bang when you run into a set.

[Misformonkey]

There isn't half of a flash-bang when you run into a set.

Having not been through a set I wouldn’t know. Saw a Puma have a little near miss about 5 years ago but the weather was proper ****ters!
Beside that wires seem to be a concern and rightly so given what risk they present.

[kintyred]

Shawbury, early 90s. I'm about to embark on a low level navex with my stude, who had arranged for his parents and girlfriend to be at one of his turning points. We brief and clamber into the mighty Wessex. Bloggs is doing really well as we approach the appointed TP. Spies his nearest and dearest, briefs next leg and then gets a bit of target fixation. He fails to spot the 250' wires just beyond the TP and I let him plough on until avoiding action is required. I take control, rack on 60 deg AOB and retrace our steps. Bloggs is somewhat confused until we turn back onto track and he sees the wires. Blood drains from his face and I give him control once more. Sortie concludes, I debrief him without even mentioning the incident, give him a B for a very good navex and we part.

Fast forward 15 years and I am squadron duty auth at a secret Hampshire SH base when the phone rings. I announce myself to unknown caller. Caller is silent for a moment and then asks "Not Flt Lt Kintyred who instructed at Shawbury 15 years ago?" I confirm that I am the same and he says, "It's Flt Lt Bloggs.....and I still have nightmares about wires."

PS. A well-deserved MiD must go to my very brave crewman who, trusting that I was going to use the situation to make a point, didn't alert Bloggs to our impending demise.

[Onceapilot]

Are wires the biggest threat and within this theme recurring nightmare to modern low level aviation? Genuine interest.

Not to FW. FJ Mil fliers would probably rate the ground as a peacetime main LL risk and on Ops, probably hostile air defences. Wires might be more % risk to Rotary in peacetime.

OAP

[YOP]

30 years of flying helicopters ranging from Sea Kings, through Twin Squirrels, Jet Rangers and down to the R22 and I never did a flight where I didn't have a nervous stomach before take off requiring a prudent trip or maybe 2 to the loo!!

If I'd bought shares in Andrex 3 decades ago I could have retired from flying much earlier.

Also whilst I never dream about wires I still occasionally have one about going IMC without the relevant instruments or recent skill level to come out the right way up. Was fully instrument rated in the Sea King but the dream always involves an R22 and always features a low inertia head somewhere in it.

I've a degree in psychology but I'm :mad: if I can work it out.

Really nice to wake up though and find I wasn't airborne in the first place. :)

[CoodaShooda]

There isn't half of a flash-bang when you run into a set.

Agreed. Although I was happily on the ground watching the Thorpe T18 doing its impression of a submarine approach.

Equally impressive was the way its momentum had it careering wildly down the runway sans canopy and with the vertical stabilizer knocked back through 90 degrees. One of the wires hadn't broken, ran up the top of the cowling and hooked the canopy locking handle and then the top of the fin in quick succession.

Of course, blacking out the neighbours' power gave them just another argument for trying to close down the airstrip.

I'm just a low hour PPL with small packets of flying spread over 45 years. I've had the wires dream during my lengthy non-flying periods but they seem to go away when I can scratch the itch.

[taxydual]

The F4 'mate' who took out the only telephone wire between Fox Bay and Port Howard in the Falklands. He RTB'ed with 10' of it wrapped around the cockpit windscreen external combing.

When 'Smoky' (Chinook fame) went to investigate, he discovered the the telephone wire was held up on 15' sticks. The mathematics doesn't work out. But...............

[tartare]

That is uncanny.
Not military - but I have the same recurring dream mentioned here.
Taking off from a street, or flying down a street criss-crossed by wires.
Have to try and pick the gap to climb through, but don't have the climb performance to do it.
Wake up just as the wire strike happens...

[rolandpull]

Early 90's, I blagged a jump seat on the Sultans airline flying into HKG from a Det in Bandar, sat immediately behind (fleet) Capt. Popped out of low cloud into lots of lower cloud over the harbour. FO calls we have lost the IGS, Capt looks out to his left and says he has 'the ground'. We are now feet dry descending towards the checkerboard and that mountain beyond. Two more FO calls re the lack of IGS, Capt says the same, I stare at FO and really start shaking my head (naughty?), HKG has disappeared and we are still going downwards. FO leans toward Capt, slams his hand down above the auto-pilot and shouts (and he did shout!) 'Captain,you will go-around now!'. TOGA,and the two RB's start to whine again and up we go somewhere over Kowloon. Min chatter all the way around the block, better Wx, argument starts as soon as we are off the runway, drift past our holding point. An interesting 30 mins or so.

[Davita]

Re: post # 136 from rolandpull.
Hearing that story scares the crap outta me....and it isn't the first time such an episode happens when pilots stretch the limits.

Lion Air also went below limits 5 years ago in Bali (where I now live) on a brand new B737. They were lucky and splashed into the water short of the runway..... fortunately everyone survived.

As an often-passenger flying on budget airlines in South Asia I'm now more scared than when getting shot at in a Hastings doing supply drops to Gurkhas near Kuching... during Confrontation.

[megan]

tartare , my dream is much the same as yours, flying down a street with numerous wires overhead and looking for a gap to climb up through. Never find a gap, but never crash either before dream ends. Nice to know we're not all crazy. Seem to remember either another thread on the subject in the forum, or perhaps a paper written.

[treadigraph]

I can't recall any dreams about flying under wires - I occasionally get that dream that ends with a sudden falling through the sky feeling, as well as the one about running around in public in yer shreddies or less (and I hope it WAS a dream!) which I believe is related to a feeling of insecurity - as a soon to be ex-employee of Carillion, amazed I haven't had that one in the last three or four weeks!

[blind pew]

Had three friends and a colleague hit wires.
First was a DC9 check pilot whose militia job was a chopper instructor..he and his pupil died. The second was a partner in a competition glider who woke up in hospital with some burns after a field landing.
Third was a paraglider pilot whom I suggested to try the bigger picture whicb he excelled at until he strapped a Gopro to his motorglider wing tip and removed the elevator trying to get a better shot.RIP
Number four was a top airline base trainer who got tangled into a thick wire..paraglided slid along and then off it and continued flying.
Done rather a lot of low flying for a civi..much of it in the alps and did find myself looking up at one pylon ..just at the right moment the sun reflected off a cable and I was able to fly out from the ridge and over it. Turned up at Vinon sur Verdon the week when two pilots had died..one touched the mountain face the second an avalanche protection cable where they send the charge down the wire and remotely trigger it.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Re Taxydual's dit about the Tonka in the Falklands: we sadly lost a Puma within days of arriving in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe for the monitoring of the 'ceasefire' and 'elections' (yeah, right... sigh). Despite the arrival brief from a member of the RhAF about the primary hazard in such a wide-open country being from wirestrike (they'd lost 3 a/c in the preceding year due to this reason), the crew were brought down while flying at high speed along a road. The wires they hit were between 20-30 ft above ground at the point of contact; they hit them with their tail (ie the wires had gone over the main rotor). What a waste.

Referring back to previous posts, I used to have the ones about trees too. Just like the wire-related dreams stopping after I started my current role, the tree-related instances stopped during my 3-year stint in Borneo where we would get right down into and under the canopy. One major HLS by a research station required letting down into a gap 3-400m from the site and flying up the river under the canopy to get in.

[DODGYOLDFART]

I have no fear of flying as such but I do have a significant fear of landing. This started to afflict me around the point where I had accumulated around 2000 hours PIC on 20 or so different aircraft types. As far as I can tell it started following what had been described as an unplanned and excessively heavy off airfield landing due to mechanical failure. Fortunately although the aircraft was a write off no one was seriously hurt. The following day I had a check out on an identical aircraft flying around the circuit for about an hour with a QFI on board doing all the usual stuff like EFT, SF, etc. and had no problems.

Shortly after I had a none flying overseas posting and I did not fly PIC for just over two years. However when I came back to flying I started to have a problem on finals very much to do with judgement of height and distance (real or imagined). Something a bit like what golfers call the "yips". After a couple off serious near misses I stopped flying. Even 30 years later I still have the same problem when sitting in the right hand seat as a passenger alongside a competent PIC.

[Danny42C]

DOF (#142),

I think fear of (a bad) landing is fairly common. After all, we all know that in the air a properly trimmed aircraft flies itself. All you have to learn is one little trick (to get it into the air), and one big one (to put it down again).

In my case, landing-phobia led to crap approaches. My clever Instructor sensed what was wrong, and we did a string of low-level overshoots, going lower each time round, approaches got much better (as I was free of my phobia), till at last my Instructor said (about !00 ft), "Now land !" - it was a 'greaser'. My phobia vanished.

In my case, I found the trick was, not to fix your vision on the tarmac in front of the nose, but on the far end of the runway, that way you can feel when it is ready to "sit down". Worked (most times) for me.

[isaneng]

Not scared. Not now, anyway.
Sometimes can't shake the images of absent friends.
Survivor's guilt?
Daft really, crawled out of the burning wreckage myself, but I made it out of that one, they didn't out of theirs.
Was scared for a while afterwards. RadAlt was best friend and worst enemy at the same time.
And still feel silly for even mentioning it, when others paid such a price.