Will Qantas stop 'Day of Operation' commuting to Perth for 787 ULH?

[Rated De]

British Airways has recently revised its staff travel policy.
Given the proximity to Continental Europe and (like Sydney) prohibitive housing prices, crew are commuting longer distances to operate from Heathrow.

Up until recently it was up to the individual, more recently that changed



Now BA crew have to be at base for 12 hours.



A bigger time change than two hours require that period include a local night



Whilst it appears that BA is acting in isolation one wonders whether UK CAA and even EASA will change the rules.


Given the ULR flying proudly trumpeted by Qantas can Flight Operations ignore Day of Operation commuting? British Airways are to conduct an audit of Staff Travel use.



As I have previously discussed, the onus may well be on the pilot but it is highly probable that British Airways is taking action aimed at ensuring it is seen to enforce rest periods in order to reduce or eliminate litigation were an accident to occur.

[ElZilcho]

Can't help but wonder if BA's decision was the result of a few ruining it for the many. Some Commuters really are a special breed who demand special treatment not only from the company, but also their colleagues.

[krismiler]

Perhaps a few people didn't get on and standby crew had to be called out ?

[wiggy]

Perhaps a few people didn't get on and standby crew had to be called out ?

Seeing as I'm one of those subject to this audit, if I may:.... Given the state of the road system in the south east UK there's often more than a few "road commuters" who miss report, so it wasn't that (in fact it's often easier to get into London by air than by using the M ways....).

Many effected by this audit have made the point that driving into LHR/LGW can be more tiring than sitting on your backside in M class flying in from say, Manchester, ( probably less than hour block to block flight most days) but the company aren't interested in that argument. Fly in from Manchester, you must then have have 12 hours at base prior to report....drive in....well, there are recommendations but no hard rules.........

BA can monitor staff travel usage, they now feel they have a legal duty to monitor staff travel to ensure rest prior to report. They can't monitor private cars, so the car drivers can carry on as before, the "flying commuters" are getting it in the neck..

Please don't shoot the messenger......

[krismiler]

Couldn't you park caravans in the staff car park and live in them like regional airline pilots in America do ?

[IsDon]

If QANTAS tried this nonsense I just wouldn’t use staff travel.

Simples!

[Rated De]

Of course not using staff travel is an answer for the individual, but if the regulator changes the ground rules.

As occurred in the wake of the Colgan air accident commuting was of great concern to the NTSB.

A key recommendation of CAO48.1 is that rest periods be in accommodation. The notion that a minimum rest period commenced at parking the brakes plus 15 or 30 mins was to cease. Sleep opportunity had renewed focus, not mere lip service to 'rest'. Readers may be surprised to learn that airlines opposed it on commercial grounds!


Thus it may be that British Airways are concerned that commuting is a concern, they may be responding to the UK CAA having concerns too.
Whilst focusing on commuters using staff travel may be a first step, driving commutes on minimum rest have to take into account the reality that most pilots have to live a long way away form the capital cities, be it in London or Sydney to afford suitable accommodation.

There are plenty of BA crew commuting up from Southhampton or Portsmouth. It is a big day on the M3 and M25 to get to Heathrow!

[Snakecharma]

I would think that day of ops commuting for short and medium haul ops is a much bigger concern than it would be for long and ultra long haul ops.

The ability to get decent inflight rest combined with only one take off and one (hopefully) landing, makes day of ops commuting less of a fatigue risk than multiple sector short haul days or 8-10 hr sectors with two or three crew with no proper inflight rest opportunities or facilities.

[TURIN]

Does this mean the next time I'm on a duty ticket I won't get bumped from the last available jump seat by a dead heading steward(ess) on an ID90?

[Rated De]

would think that day of ops commuting for short and medium haul ops is a much bigger concern

When an employer targets statutory limits for rest periods, providing minimum rest as the normal for pattern construction: Efficiency you know! Then decrees that rest commences after the park brake is set plus 15 minutes (all from the confines of a comfy 9-5 office), any sort of commuting makes it a really risky proposition...Fortunately the pilots carry the risk!

What is not to like, at least for the office creatures?

[krismiler]

Some crew have to wait in motorway cafes to be able to get to work within the time limit if called on standby.

[parabellum]

Does this mean the next time I'm on a duty ticket I won't get bumped from the last available jump seat by a dead heading steward(ess) on an ID90?


Hope you are joking Turin? The priority of a Duty ticket is way, way above an ID90.

[maggot]

Hope you are joking Turin? The priority of a Duty ticket is way, way above an ID90.

Not for a jump seat matey! If the company won't spring a firm seat for duty I'd take it up with them.

[parabellum]

Not for a jump seat matey! If the company won't spring a firm seat for duty I'd take it up with them.


Well 'Matey', doesn't sound as though it was a duty ticket then, duty trumps ID90 every time I can think of, stand to be corrected.

[maggot]

Well 'Matey', doesn't sound as though it was a duty ticket then, duty trumps ID90 every time I can think of, stand to be corrected.

Sorry that came off wrong I didn't mean to be condescending, my apologies.
Qf often sends office folk on duty without sufficient priority for the desired flight, maybe when changed? In anycase they have in the past used the jumpseat on request leaving the op crew surprised they were duty and a staffy (other crew perhaps) left behind

[goodonyamate]

Simples....no office staff on the jump seat, ever.

[mrdeux]

Qf often sends office folk on duty without sufficient priority for the desired flight, maybe when changed? In anycase they have in the past used the jumpseat on request leaving the op crew surprised they were duty and a staffy (other crew perhaps) left behind

And back when I flew the 767 I would never give the jump seats to anyone on a duty ticket.....

[Rated De]

Duty travel is really interesting in airlines.

'Your department' buys a Commercial ticket from Commercial. A little inter segment transaction.

If a pilot lets a duty travel on the jump seat Commercial can effectively release the seat again and grab more revenue, that may be with another duty traveler or indeed a staff travel.

Not unknown for a duty traveler and dispatcher to tell the flight crew it is staff travel to get jump seat approval!

[maggot]

And back when I flew the 767 I would never give the jump seats to anyone on a duty ticket.....

Yep that sentiment was widespread. It got to a point where clarification was always needed to ensure it was a staffy and indeed not a duty. Occasionally omitted...

[dragon man]

Yes, but only if using staff travel.

[cessnapete]

Probably a good idea. Once when operating a Tokyo service from Lhr on a B744, the handling F/O was nodding off shortly after a 1300 take off. Turned out he had arrived about 0900 on night flight from JFK. he commuted from New York.
I smartly gave the sector to the other F/O!

[Rated De]

Probably a good idea. Once when operating a Tokyo service from Lhr on a B744, the handling F/O was nodding off shortly after a 1300 take off. Turned out he had arrived about 0900 on night flight from JFK. he commuted from New York.This is an interesting insight and reveals how complex and multi-faceted the problem is:



Airline 'people management' target regulatory limits; TOD are longer and rest period short all in the guise of 'efficiency'. Sleep opportunity is disturbed.
Many rest periods are minimum permitted by statute.
Population pressure in places like Sydney and Melbourne Australia have seen each city grow with immigration at 2.5 times the OECD average. 900,000 people in each city extra, with trains and road creaking at the seams. London is remarkably similar.
Immigration and cheap debt (low interest rates at 5,000 year lows) have caused unprecedented flows into housing pushing up prices of suitable accommodation.
Downward pressure on pilot terms and conditions as supply exceeded demand.
Pilots commuting further to get to work as their home is often nowhere near the city hub of their employer.
Fatigue not regulated universally. Fatigue is bespoke and as such a very well hidden nemesis. Its attack is like carbon monoxide; odourless and often symptom less.

Naturally airline management pay lip service to it and as long as pilots refuse to complete the overly complex 'fatigue' reports they enable their employer to pretend it is not a problem.


British Airways are only going after commuters who use staff travel, but one must postulate whether there was pressure from the UK CAA. Ultimately fatigue is a dual responsibility; the employer must avoid roster practice that will generate excess fatigue. Pilots must also report and refuse to operate whilst fatigued.

[wiggy]

British Airways are only going after commuters who use staff travel, but one must postulate whether there was pressure from the UK CAA

To answer the second point first, it has become clear the regulator is in the loop...as to whether they are applying pressure on BA or have simply expressed disquiet, well I’ll take the fifth on answering that

As to them going after staff travellers, just to be clear at the moment BA are only formally auditing those travelling on staff travel, probably because they have easy access to the data. However I suspect if by some means somebody travelling into base on full commercial tickets is also found to be in breach of the new Ops Manual requirements they will also be up for a disciplinary...

[TURIN]

Hope you are joking Turin? The priority of a Duty ticket is way, way above an ID90.

Not on Big Airways.

I got bumped on three consecutive flights by dead heading crew on ID90s. 'Captain's privelige' I was told. He/she can allow who goes in the flight deck regardless of priority. I was on a company duty ticket with very high priority. I knew I was top of the onload list but watched again and again as other staff walked past the dispatcher and off home.

I am 'flightdeck qualified' by the way.

Not that i'm bitter of course.

[Berealgetreal]

Try having a non-normal with a non-pilot in the jumpseat.

Very uncomfortable. Instantly you understand why the cockpit is a place for pilots only.

Commuting staff travellers would be the target because the data is available. How do you monitor everyone else? Most guys I know will just go firm ticket with the opposition if staff travel commuting was forbidden. People aren’t going to just move to their base.

[krismiler]

I don’t commute but I often buy full fare promo tickets on the opposition when I travel. A good promo fare is often little more than a staff ticket as you’re paying all the taxes and fees either way.

If you’re definite on dates and times you can lock in better rates for hotels and car hire and you don’t spend the whole trip worrying if you going to get back in time for work.

I’ll use staff travel on routes where we have multiple daily flights, non peak times and a reasonably priced alternative available if I still don’t get on.

[mrdeux]

I am 'flightdeck qualified' by the way.

What does that mean? You're either flight crew or you aren't. In any event access to the cockpit is totally at the Captain's discretion. If you're on duty travel they can give you a cabin seat.

I recall once wandering back into the cockpit, after doing the external preflight, to find two people parked in the jump seats. I asked who they were? Manager of purple turtles or something apparently. And then, who approved them coming to the cockpit. Well, they did, as it's something managers can do. So, I showed them what Captains can do....and left with the seats empty.

[*Lancer*]

Jumpseat use is of course always the Captain’s discretion.

Denying access to duty travellers (where non-operational staff often don’t have a confirmed booking) generally just inconveniences your colleague who may just be trying to get home. The company doesn’t care if they have a forced overnight at the Parkroyal, but I’m sure their family’s do.

A pilot alt-paxing may try to hop on an earlier, full flight by asking for the jump seat.
Duty travel = deny jump seat...?

[mrdeux]

Denying access to duty travellers (where non-operational staff often don’t have a confirmed booking) generally just inconveniences your colleague who may just be trying to get home. The company doesn’t care if they have a forced overnight at the Parkroyal, but I’m sure their family’s do.

As I expect the company would have to pay for said hotel night, I’m sure they would care.

A pilot alt-paxing may try to hop on an earlier, full flight by asking for the jump seat.
Duty travel = deny jump seat...?

Alt paxing people have confirmed seats. In any event, I would not let them have the seat if it displaced someone on a staff ticket.

[C441]

Back in my 767 days I wouldn’t generally carry a duty traveller on the jumpseat, with one exception.
If that duty traveller was a colleague who was about to or had been attending to company business as a Pilot representative (ie: on my behalf! - say AIPA or WHS rep) and they’d been displaced for commercial pax, I’d happily take them on the jump - if they asked for it.

As someone who regularly travels to Sydney as a pilot rep to attend company meetings, I’m very glad many of my colleagues agree; especially when I’m trying to get home. It’s only happened once or twice in 3 or 4 years, but thanks!

[Basil]

Not on Big Airways.

I got bumped on three consecutive flights by dead heading crew on ID90s. 'Captain's privelige' I was told. He/she can allow who goes in the flight deck regardless of priority. I was on a company duty ticket with very high priority. I knew I was top of the onload list but watched again and again as other staff walked past the dispatcher and off home.

I am 'flightdeck qualified' by the way.

Not that i'm bitter of course.
Hmm, I'd like to know the whole story behind that.