FPV (Birdy)

[gearlever]

Trying to explain flight path vector (FPV) to a friend, one thing is puzzling me.

We all know we can use the FPV to determine AOA (pitch angle minus FP angle). But is it correct? What about the angle of incidence? Am I missing something?

[eckhard]

I think your suspicion is well-founded. The angle of attack will be found by subtracting the FPV from the aircraft pitch attitude and then adding the angle of incidence.

However, given that we don’t (normally) know what the angle of incidence is, and given that it is small and probably varies along the span, a good approximation of alpha may be assumed by ignoring incidence.

[gearlever]

eckhard.
Would be really interesting to know about angle of incidence of various airliners.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

It actually does not matter what the angle of incidence is - you can use the airplane longitudinal axis as a datum for the AoA and for all practical purposes, the difference between the pitch and FPV is your AoA.

This will be somewhat altered by headwind/tailwind - AoA is measured w.r.t to airspeed, whereas FPV uses ground speed for calculation

[eckhard]

Would be really interesting to know about angle of incidence of various airliners.

Well, given that most airliners seem to cruise with about 2 or 3 degrees nose up attitude, and given that the angle of attack for LRC is about the same, I would say that incidence is close to zero.

[IEFCL]

As I recall from an old high speed aerodynamics book written back in 80-s, the typical angle of incidence for a jet is about 3*. Can’t be zero as the supercritical swept wing needs more of the AoA to generate enough lift. It’s also being said that the optimum AoA at which you wold have your L/D max is about 6-7*.

[eckhard]

It’s also being said that the optimum AoA at which you wold have your L/D max is about 6-7*.

Well then that also would make sense of the 3* nose up attitude in the cruise.

So, 3* angle of incidence + 3* attitude = 6* AoA.

[gearlever]

Sorry to disagree " L/D max" in cruise?

[eckhard]

You’re right of course. L/D max would equate to maximum endurance, but max range (which is very close to LRC) would be faster.

Here’s a quote from NAVWEPS by HH Hurt:

“The maximum range is obtained at the aerodynamic condition which produces a maximum proportion between the square root of the lift coefficient (CL) and the drag coefficient (CD). In subsonic performance, this occurs at a particular value angle of attack and lift coefficient and is unaffected by weight or altitude (within compressibility limits).”

Unfortunately, he doesn’t mention the actual angle of attack. I could look further into that very good book but I’m a bit busy right now.....

[I-PIERLU]

From what I recall an "ECON" angle for a jet is around 4°.

[eckhard]

I’m actually ‘flying’ in a 787 FBS.
Here are some figures from the Sim Maintenance pages:

Weight 200 Tonnes (typical mid-cruise)
FL370 ISA (close to Optimum of FL366)
CG 25% MAC
LRC M0.853 / 279kts AoA 2.4 pitch att 2.4
Best Hold Speed 262kts AoA 3.2 pitch att 3.2
OEI drift-down speed 252 AoA 3.8 pitch att 3.0 (descending at 600fpm at an angle of -0.8)

So these figures would suggest that the wing incidence is zero, since for level flight the AoA and pitch attitude are the same.
Of course, this may only be a convenience adopted by the sim manufacturers and may not reflect the situation on the actual aircraft.

I-PIERLU: your 4 degrees is close to these figures.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Eckhard,

As far as I know, in 3D aerodynamics, ie. when we are discussing entire airplane , rather than an airfoil, the convention is to reference the AoA from the longitudinal axis of the plane rather than the chord of the wing.

Therefore in level flight AoA=pitch attitude.

[gearlever]

If correct AOI on B727 is 2.0 deg and on B757 3.2 deg.

The Boeing 727 & 757 (http://www.airvectors.net/avb727.html)

[eckhard]

Some more interesting figures from the 787 sim at LRC, FL370, ISA, 200T:

N1 86%
FF 2700kg/hr (x2) = 5,400kg = 11,900lbs
Weight 440,873lbs
Total Thrust 21,900lbs
Therefore L/D=20/1

Thanks Sidestick and Gearlever for your input. Very interesting.
Yes, it makes sense to reference AoA to the whole aircraft and not just the wing.

[FE Hoppy]

Are we sure that the symbol we call attitude is really attitude reference to the aircraft fuselage longitudinal datum or is it attitude reference main plane incidence, or some average of the two?

Why would you fix your wing such that in the cruise the fuselage was not level? I could save you some fuel by re-rigging your wing!

[eckhard]

A good question which I’ve often pondered myself.
There’s no doubt that the floor is inclined in the cruise. Just try pushing and pulling a heavy trolley!

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

The fuselage is not entirely symmetrical, so perhaps best L/D for fuselage is at ~2 deg?

BTW, thanks for the aerodynamic data for the 787. I would have actually expected it to operate at L/D slightly higher, than 20. Then again, it’s at high altitude and high Mach No, so the aerodynamics must be even better at low altitude. It would be great to compare it to other airplanes, eg. A330 and A359

[Intruder]

It really doesn't matter...

The incidence angle of the wing chord is not constant along the span, so there can be no single value for AoA or incidence. Further, the extension of leading- and trailing-edge slats and/or flaps change the effective AoA at any point along the span, and accentuate the washout (higher AoA inboard, lower AoA outboard).

Just use the info given (pitch and FPV), and assume the engineers picked a reasonable datum.

[gearlever]

Intruder, I fully agree.
I've stumbled over angle of incident to explain a student AOA versus flight path and didn't want to miss a point. As we all know there are many planes around where the angle of incident IS constant along the span (GA).

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

There’s a lot more factors at play here - like local upwash/downwash, aerodynamic and geometric twist, wing sweep etc.

I’d argue that even on a plain, straight wing with constant angle of incidence, each section operates at a different local AoA, because of 3D airflow. Therefore it’s sensible to pick up a different reference.

Also, in any case, the reference does not matter, as long as it’s consistent and data is appropriately adjusted for it. For example, I seem to remember from reading in one incident report (probably the Qantas A330 upset), that A330’s AoA vanes ‘zero’ reading was something like -45degrees down from the fuselage axis :8

[gearlever]

Yep, the deeper you dig....
I've also stumbled to explain the lift theory I was taught many moons ago (Bernoulli):ugh:

It seems dead wrong now. Still looking for a better easy to understand explanation....

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Try here:
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/bernnew.html

[galaxy flyer]

I think the standard is the fuselage reference line—body angle. It was for the Global HUD.

Also, remember the US and the British reverse the meaning of Angie of Attack and Angke of Incidence. Lastly, AoA gauges don’t display angle but dimensionless units between zero and stall AoA.

[gearlever]

Sidestick:ok:

[FE Hoppy]

I think the standard is the fuselage reference line—body angle. It was for the Global HUD.

Also, remember the US and the British reverse the meaning of Angie of Attack and Angke of Incidence. Lastly, AoA gauges don’t display angle but dimensionless units between zero and stall AoA.


Which is a good thing as Mach has a big effect on max AoA but you will stall* when you get to it.


*very loose term as you may well meet an intervention before stalling or AoA max.
CSeries in normal mode does a lovely job of maintaining a variable AoA limit if you just hold it at the Soft or Hard sidestick limit.
Many aircraft will push before you get too close.

[KikuAsus]

'Angle of Attack- It is the difference between where an airplane is going and where (in the up and down sense) its nose is pointing'- From Stick and Rudder

[misd-agin]

Cruise AOA's - 737-800 2.6-2.8, 777-200 2.4-2.6 empty 2.2.

[Cirrussy]

I have in the past worked out a L/D for the B757 at around 20:1, so that tallies with your figures (I am pleased to say)! Never took the time to work it out for the A321, but would imagine with some decent winglets it must be a bit higher.

Regarding deck angle, I've often wondered when pushing a trolley from back to front whether there is an incline to the wing root then it goes down hill towards the cockpit?! There has to be a bending moment in the fuselage, certainly on the longer fuselages.

[FCeng84]

In Post #20 S&R makes reference to zero vane angle being a long way from zero AOA. This is common for a couple of reasons.

1. AOA vanes measure the angle of the flow where they are located (normally on the side of the forebody). Flow anywhere near the airplane is distorted by the airplane. A change of AOA of one degree will most likely result in a change of vane angle that is significantly more than one degree.

2. The AOA range of interest most often extends on both sides of zero. Often it is found to be easier to deal with a sensor whose "position" takes on only positive values. As such, the vane instrumentation may be set up to have a zero reading correspond to an airplane AOA that is quite negative so as not to have to deal with negative values.

Most often a conversion is provide within the airplane's instrumentation to convert raw "vane angle" to "AOA" that is then used for displays and potentially as part of the control system augmentation. AOA is most typically an indication of the longitudinal angle of the free stream airflow with respect to the fuselage.

A related point of interest is the AOA at which zero lift occurs. For a high speed, clean wing configuration zero lift usually occurs at close to zero AOA. At low speed where trailing edge flaps are often deployed and trailing edge control surfaces such as ailerons may be drooped, zero lift occurs at an AOA that is considerably below zero.

I concur with the previous comments regarding complexity of wing shape and twist such that defining the true zero incidence angle for the wing itself is complex and varies with wing configuration, fuel loading, airplane weight, speed, Mach number, and load factor. It is much simpler to reference AOA to a more stable, less variable geometry reference such as fuselage angle.

[gearlever]

FCeng84, I really appreciate:ok:

[Check Airman]

FCEng just dropped the mic