Russian fighter jet 'shot down' in Syria (3rd Feb)

[Lyneham Lad]

A report on BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42932616):-

A Russian Sukhoi 25 fighter jet has been shot down in a rebel-held area near Idlib in north Syria, reports say.
The pilot was said to have ejected before the crash and been captured, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights monitoring group said.
Video posted on social media appeared to show the plane being hit, while other video showed burning wreckage on the ground, with a red star on a wing.

[Bob Viking]

Fingers crossed for a happy ending for the pilot.

BV

[A_Van]

Sooner or later it would have happened. They fly too low and too risky though know that jihaddists do have lots of MANPADS.
Here is a recent (yesterday) video how Su-25 evaded fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwG_ZgIBlCc&feature=youtu.be

Sounds like today one of the pilots was not that lucky while "gambling". Hope that he is alive and rescued, but first rumours are sadly negative...

[Airbubba]

Tyler Rogoway has this article posted about the incident:

Russian Su-25 Frogfoot Attack Jet Shot Down In Syria - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18216/russian-su-25-frogfoot-attack-jet-shot-down-in-syria)

[A_Van]

Those "rebels" are probably missing Tu-22M3 and cruise missiles to visit their "camp". Hope the waiting will not be long.

[Kulverstukas]

e_AKCDgG2hI

E_wfI_4Y-SI

v1OunYqhV0g

[Kulverstukas]

k7G92t2MXBY

Pilot is dead (probably killed). NSFW (https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/el_murid/16552936/616210/616210_original.jpg)

[Kulverstukas]

Russian Defence Ministry confirmed Su-25 shot down by MANPADS in Idlib province. Pilot was captured and killed by terrorists.

[Thaihawk]

Hopefully this lot of vile savages won't have long to wait before some sustained bombing raids send them all off to meet their 72 virgins.

[glad rag]

Too bad.

While the Russian regime stations IRBM around NATO members borders, develop Kanyon as a third strike weapon system, annex eastern Ukraine in an ongoing bloody war, I'm minded that all you see flying in those videos are ...targets.


Here ya go van, fill your boots..

https://www.nato.int/docu/review/2014/Russia-Ukraine-Nato-crisis/Nato-enlargement-Russia/EN/index.htm

[flash8]

Hopefully this lot of vile savages won't have long to wait before some sustained bombing raids send them all off to meet their 72 virgins.


Ah, is that the "rebels" we "currently" support? Hard to tell day to day.

It never ceases to amaze me why we try and topple the only secular leader in the continent so that the country descends into utter Islamic chaos with "non-believers" beheaded and tribes fighting it out for land and the rule of law disappearing for decades (and beyond).

Still, my sympathies to the Pilots family. I live in Russia and I can tell you what we think of these scum, and it isn't pretty.

[Al-bert]

What Flash said! :hmm:

[Kulverstukas]

szOH1WvDocg

[AreOut]

russian-made, probably looted from syrian army depot

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Curious that in both the Su-25 videos of the last couple of days, both fly a predictable flight path for many seconds (without pickling any weapons), and neither pump out flares at random. Complacency creeping into the Russian camp?

[Kulverstukas]

Last fight for pilot

https://t.me/directorate4/1433

[Kulverstukas]

russian-made, probably looted from syrian army depot

Or from one of Ukrainian military depot, which was "accidentally" set on fire last year. Or from some of Eastern Europe country. Money talks.

[Easy Street]

Last fight for pilot

https://t.me/directorate4/1433

Google Translate on the caption: “The last battle of the pilot Su-25SM. He blew himself up with a grenade to avoid being captured by militants.” If true, and the video clip seems consistent on first viewing, then at least he died a dignified and valiant death. Hope he took a few with him too.

As for tooling around at a few thousand feet without MAWS, manoeuvre or pre-emptive countermeasures... very, very unwise. Either they’re getting complacent, are rotating too many inexperienced pilots through with insufficient training, or there is some unexplained strategic imperative that is driving them to accept much higher risk levels than the West would...

[unmanned_droid]

Regardless of the 'side' the pilot may be on, when a grenade is your plan to preserve your dignity you must be in a pretty dark and nasty place. Not something I would ever want to contemplate let alone have to experience. I feel for the guy, having to go through that.

[Buster Hyman]

Is carrying a Grenade in the cockpit common practice???

[Basil]

Regardless of the 'side' the pilot may be on, when a grenade is your plan to preserve your dignity you must be in a pretty dark and nasty place. Not something I would ever want to contemplate let alone have to experience. I feel for the guy, having to go through that.
I think any military aircrew will have run that scene through their minds.

[Basil]

Is carrying a Grenade in the cockpit common practice???
Just don't tell the boss.

[TEEEJ]

Is carrying a Grenade in the cockpit common practice???

See following. It appears that some Russian aircrew based in Syria do carry grenades.

See from 6:47 at least two grenades carried.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnB0hZfE-Go

https://theaviationist.com/2018/02/04/everything-we-know-about-the-russian-su-25-frogfoot-jet-shot-down-in-syria/

[unmanned_droid]

I think any military aircrew will have run that scene through their minds.

I have no doubt they have, and the alternatives. And I'm sure there is training for it too. In my mind, it doesn't make it any less of a shi**y day if it happens though.

[unmanned_droid]

See following. It appears that some Russian aircrew based in Syria do carry grenades.

See from 6:47 at least two grenades carried.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnB0hZfE-Go

https://theaviationist.com/2018/02/04/everything-we-know-about-the-russian-su-25-frogfoot-jet-shot-down-in-syria/

watching - at least they are carried in their seperate components.

[jolihokistix]

So all the talk of the pilot having ejected and parachuting out was just talk?

[unmanned_droid]

err, well, the last I saw is that he blew himself up with his own grenade, so I guess he must have got out to be able to do that.

[jolihokistix]

Not very good English, but this is what Al Jazeera have to say:
Russia steps up Idlib strikes after Sukhoi jet downing | Russia News | Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/russia-retaliates-idlib-sukhoi-jet-downed-180204064444409.html)
The pilot of the Sukhoi was killed after being ejected from the aircraft by rebel fighters, including members of the Hay'et Tahrir al-Sham group, commonly known as Tahrir al-Sham. The group is spearheaded by the former al-Nusra Front (http://www.aljazeera.com/topics/people/al-nusra-front.html), which used to be al-Qaeda (http://www.aljazeera.com/topics/organisations/al-qaeda.html)'s branch in Syria.
Analyst Richard Weitz of the Hudson Institute told Al Jazeera it was too early to say how exactly the plane was brought down. "Some reports say it was brought down by machine-gun fire. There's a couple of reports out there saying it was shot down by a missile but rebels are not known to have surface-to-air missiles with this kind of range," he said.

[jolihokistix]

A related article on Al Arabiya with speculation in the last line as to what it might have been. Again we must overlook some mystifying English.


"According to Maria Dubovikova, president of the Moscow based International Middle Eastern Studies Club, the timing of the attack is quite disturbing, as the Sochi congress in Syria has just passed.
"The Su-25 was targeted during his control flight around the de-escalation zone. De-escalation zones are considered the cornerstones of the peace process in Syria. The incident may pose one Russian retreat of forces from Syria," she said.
Dubovikova said that another possible source of MANPAD system might be the Ukrainians. "It's difficult to prove, but they are always active on black market; especially after the rupture with Russia. There are some rumors here in Russia that it was an Igla MANPAD (9k38) SA18 or Chinese analogue FN-6 ".


https://english.alarabiya.net/en/features/2018/02/04/Who-pulled-trigger-on-Russian-jet-in-war-zone-bristling-with-arms-.html

[TBM-Legend]

When one sees the picture of the pilot being burnt to death in a steel cage, a hand grenade is a great device...

ISIS video shows Jordanian pilot being burned to death - CBS News

[hunterboy]

You have to hand it to the Russians....they are always committed.
Without wishing to disparage the West, we rarely believe in anything nowadays.

[pr00ne]

hunterboy,

Speak for yourself!

You do indeed disparage the West, in my opinion totally unjustifiably.

[Ormeside28]

He was a pilot, one of us ,for Heavens sake!

[George K Lee]

The Notorious JRK put it best...

Poems - The Young British Soldier (http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_youngbrit.htm)

But seriously... no DIRCM? And where was MAWS?

[ORAC]

Russian pilot shot down in Syria took own life rather than be caught (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-pilot-major-roman-filipov-shot-down-in-syria-took-own-life-rather-than-be-caught-roman-filipov-sergei-shoigu-hayat-tahrir-al-sham-wjfv5bk9z)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F5634a92a-0a8f-11e8-a5b3-3d239643ad40.jpg?crop=3000%2C1687%2C0%2C156&resize=2400

The Russian pilot shot down in Syria has been hailed a hero in Moscow after he shouted, “This is for our guys!” before detonating a grenade while surrounded by militants on the ground. In video circulated online, Major Roman Filipov, 33, is heard crying the words in Russian as about ten armed men approach his position behind a rock. There is then a bang and smoke rises as some of the attackers fall back.

The Russian defence ministry confirmed that Major Filipov had died “fighting the terrorists” after he ejected from his Su-25 fighter jet. It said Sergei Shoigu, the defence minister, had put him forward for a posthumous Hero of Russia medal, the highest state award. “Until the last minutes of his life, he kept up an unequal fight from his service weapon,” the ministry said. “After he, badly wounded, was surrounded by the terrorists and the distance closed to a few dozen metres, the Russian officer blew himself up.”

Pictures of Major Filipov’s Stechkin pistol with three magazines, one empty and one half-empty, were earlier shared on Twitter. It was not clear if any Syrian fighters were hurt in the incident in Idlib province on Saturday. Some Russian media said two were injured.....

[dead_pan]

I know it probably wouldn't have helped in this situation, but do the Russians have any meaningful CSAR assets in Syria? Given the balls-up they made of trying to rescue the crew of the Su24 downed by the Turks, one would suspect not.

Western coalition air forces would have moved heaven and earth to get to a downed pilot in that situation

[Davef68]

So these were the 'bad' rebels that he was attacking?

[dead_pan]

As someone memorably once said on these forums, it's never a great plan to bail out over an area you've just been strafing - the people on the receiving end tend to take a rather dim view of your actions

[Herod]

dead_pan. I don't think he'd planned it. It was a case of running out of options.

[Kulverstukas]

Body of the pilot and parts of downed plane arrived to Chkalovsky today. Pilot will have military funeral service in Voronezh Feb, 8th at Hero Alley of Comintern Memorial Cemetery.

[A_Van]

Regarding CSAR assets, sure there are some capabilities there, though there is no land war for Russia in Syria (but mostly air ops) and no massive land forces are present. But it's not a matter of CSAR in this particular case. The pilot just preferred not to be captured by those f-jackals, who would then film how they would humiliate, etc., bargain about the price to return him and so on. Even if special forces were just 500 m away, jihaddists would anyway take him as he landed "on their heads".Therefore he preferred to die in dignity in combat and he should be greatly respected for that.
Coming back to CSAR, his body was already transported yesterday here, to Moscow region. The body was quickly retrieved by the russian special forces with the help of turks.
Some Su-25 fragments were collected as well, perhaps to identify what exactly MANPAD was used.

[jolihokistix]

Ah, so the Turks were embarrassed by this.

[Fonsini]

While I have some sympathy for the pilot and admire his bravery, I find it hard to sympathise with Russia when they are brutalising their neighbours and actively attempting to destabilise democratic elections in other nations.

[Training Risky]

Body of the pilot and parts of downed plane arrived to Chkalovsky today. Pilot will have military funeral service in Voronezh Feb, 8th at Hero Alley of Comintern Memorial Cemetery.

As nobody has said it yet, my sincere condolences on the loss of a brave Officer and Aviator. Forget the politics for one second, Major Filipov set an example of the best Russia can offer when fighting the common enemy in Syria.

Извините, друзья.

From one ex-RAF guy (and possibly more on this forum.)

[Lonewolf_50]

Fonsini, the Russian major did what any of us was doing when we flew near to where hot lead was flying about: trying to polish the turd the politicians dumped on some place by the means he was trained in.

As to the Russians: As most who post here, I am an old Cold Warrior and grew up with the Soviets as the foe. It was nice to see the Cold War end. I am of the opinion that the Americans and Russians missed a fantastic chance to stop being nasty to each other in the early part of the War on Terror, between about 2001 and 2008, since we have/had a common goal of putting down Islamists and terrorists. When the US went for the "put the Republic of Georgia into NATO" gambit, I consider it a turning point of roughly where we lost the plot. We certainly have our geostrategic differences, but there have been chances to make better efforts at using common problems as a point of building a better relationship.


We can't seem (the both of us) to get out of our own ways.
I tried to find a link to a song I'd like to dedicate to this major, but youtube sadly does not have this one up anywhere. It's from a Deutsche grammophon record I heard years ago. I ended up taping it onto a 90 minute cassette tape in the 1970's. That tape now and again still get played. A capella songs, male chorus, in Russian as I recall.
In German, it's called Lied Vom Braven Major
In English, it is "The Song of the Brave Major"
In French it's something like "Chanson du vaillant major"


(Heh, that album cover here (https://www.discogs.com/Don-Kosaken-Chor-Serge-Jaroff-Russische-Lieder-Und-Ch%C3%B6re/master/1004209) is the one I remember.... Don Kosaken Chor Serge Jaroff (https://www.discogs.com/artist/542688-Don-Kosaken-Chor-Serge-Jaroff) ‎– Russische Lieder Und Chöre
Genre:Classical (https://www.discogs.com/genre/classical) )

[Ormeside28]

Lone wolf, how I agree with your sentiments. Maybe this tragic death and the widespread sympathy extended may be a catalyst towards better relations towards our Russian friends as we both seem to be up against the same problem. Possibly I may seem naive, but something must be done.. from another Cold War warrior!

[glad rag]

What, like bend over and take it up the harris?


Go ask the UK army, training Ukrainian recruits of two weeks to fight against those Russian holidaymakers [and worse] in Eastern Ukraine, about the dirty reality, or even, lord forbid, stop believing what the media, in general, wants you to believe!

[jolihokistix]

There is still mystery on the ground in Syria surrounding how they managed to steal his body and smuggle it out, right from under the noses of this al Qaida group backed by Turkey.

[Like This - Do That]

Few of us have access to the unvarnished truth, so I can't confirm its veracity, but here's a partial explanation jolihokistix:

Filipov’s suicide was actually in vain. He came down inside an area controlled by Jaysh An Nasr, and would therefore have been captured by JAN and not by jihadists.

The Russian pilot would almost certainly have been exchanged via Turkey. The same happened with three different Syrian pilots in 2017.

Reported via Warisboring.

[A_Van]

Lonewolf,


You are correct. And very well said.


Hope there will be times to put things back on the right track. But unfortunately not in the nearest future with the politicians in charge on both sides.


.....

As to the Russians: As most who post here, I am an old Cold Warrior and grew up with the Soviets as the foe. It was nice to see the Cold War end. I am of the opinion that the Americans and Russians missed a fantastic chance to stop being nasty to each other in the early part of the War on Terror, between about 2001 and 2008, since we have/had a common goal of putting down Islamists and terrorists. When the US went for the "put the Republic of Georgia into NATO" gambit, I consider it a turning point of roughly where we lost the plot. We certainly have our geostrategic differences, but there have been chances to make better efforts at using common problems as a point of building a better relationship.
.....

[Lonewolf_50]

What, like bend over and take it up the harris? Go ask the UK army, training Ukrainian recruits of two weeks to fight against those Russian holidaymakers [and worse] in Eastern Ukraine, about the dirty reality, or even, lord forbid, stop believing what the media, in general, wants you to believe! Glad rag, please don't try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs. A result of the relationships having gone from not great to bad to worse is what went on in Ukraine. Having seen the warm and thaw up close and in person when I was in NATO in the 90's, when the post Cold War world was finding out what it was going to look like, there were some signs that we would find a way forward after having been foes for so long. I got to meed colleagues who, a few years earlier, would have been the people trying to kill me, and people I'd have been trying to kill, had things gone bad a decade earlier. Here we were, working on a collaborative exercise and in another case operations. It's twenty years or so later, and the progress I saw hasn't borne fruit. Granted, within the past couple of years we've had some weird things happen due to the multi sided conflict going on in Syria. Because I saw what could be, it's been a disappointment to see how things have gone.

The major was doing his thing, as any of us would have been doing were we in the flight suit that day and been on task to do ... whatever it is that military pilots do. RIP, Major Filipov. There but for the grace of God go I, or one of a few dozen of my friends. At root, it's the bollocks the politicians make of things that set up the conditions that turn out this way.

[Kulverstukas]

The "An-Nusra" militants today shed light on some details of the return of the body of Major Filipov to his homeland.

1. After Russia asked Turkey to help with the return of Filipov's body to Russia, the fighters of An-Nusra began to prepare for trade, with the purpose of exchanging Filipov's body for several of his accomplices in Asad who, in the interests of Russia, can free some number of fighters for body exchange.
2. But the unforeseen happened. Another group (called "Fallah al-Sham") stole Filipov's body from An-Nusra and handed it over to the Turks, who in turn gave it to Russia. According to the statements of An-Nusra, the body was returned "free of charge" and without any benefit to the "defenders of Idlib".
3. The leadership of "An-Nusra" promises to punish all those involved in this betrayal, and first of all the agents of Turkey, who betrayed the cause of jihad, choosing the side of Turkey, and not the faithful Muslims.

[Kulverstukas]

Few of us have access to the unvarnished truth, so I can't confirm its veracity, but here's a partial explanation jolihokistix:



Reported via Warisboring.

As based on their previous articles on russian military matters, you can just as well consult with a London taxi driver or a hairdresser...

[jolihokistix]

Thank you for the updates above. Here is the article which I did not post yesterday, but it does have a couple of interesting tidbits in it.
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2018/02/07/Mystery-shrouds-return-of-pilot-s-stolen-body-to-Russia.html

[Kulverstukas]

The wingman of hero pilot Major Roman Filipov, who was shot down over Syria’s governorate of Idlib and sacrificed his life fighting terrorists on the ground, has recalled their last mission and his efforts to cover his commander.
The pair of Su-25 attack jets had been performing a routine flight over Idlib de-escalation zone on Saturday. While their primary objective was to monitor the area, each such flight is dangerous and considered a true combat sortie, Filipov’s wingman told Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper in an interview.

“That sortie was also a combat one. How else can it be in the warring country, especially in such a troubled province as Idlib?” he said.

“Yes, I see it,” Filipov said when his comrade warned him about militants launching a man-portable anti-aircraft missile at his plane.

“I’ve been hit,” he added calmly just moments later. “It’s a good hit.”

The right engine of Filipov’s Su-25 caught fire, the left one stalled and he ordered his wingman to gain altitude to hide in the clouds and call a search and rescue team.

The wingman, however, disobeyed the last order of his commander, who ejected and landed in the terrorist-controlled area.

“Obviously, I did not leave. Leaving the commander alone is the last thing I’d do,” said the pilot. As Filipov waged his last battle on the ground, his brother-in-arms supported him from the air.

“I’ve always covered my commander in the air and it had to be done on the ground, where he was already engaged in combat. I stayed in the area and made several attacks, targeted the cars which approached the olive grove where Roman was. I destroyed a couple of them,” the pilot said.

“I saw where the commander landed, but I did not see the skirmish itself – it was dusk already. I had to leave on the emergency fuel reserve, only enough to get back to the airfield.”

Footage of the dramatic shootout, which emerged online, shows that once militants surrounded the gravely wounded pilot, he set off a hand grenade, shouting: “This is for the boys!” Photos posted online indicate he emptied almost two magazines of his sidearm during the shootout.

Russia’s defense ministry has posthumously awarded Filipov with the country’s highest award – the Hero of Russia medal. Major Filipov has left behind a wife and daughter. His body was recovered and returned to Russia on Tuesday. A military funeral will take place in his hometown of Voronezh on February 8 in accordance with his relatives’ wishes.

(C) RT

[Kulverstukas]

At the moment, an examination is being carried out to establish country where the MANPADS that shot down Russian Su-25 in Syria was manufactured. This was reported at the briefing by the official representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia Maria Zakharova, RBC correspondent reports.

"An examination is being conducted to determine where the MANPADS was manufactured. Such weapons can not fall into the hands of terrorists without serious support and accompaniment from outside, "she said.

"Fragments are 100% not from ours system," a source in the Defense Ministry told RBC. "According to preliminary estimates, they belongs to the American third generation MANPADS. Range - up to 6 km, height - up to 4, plus strong protection from traps. At first we thought that it was "Osa" [SA-8 Gecko], the interlocutor added.

[TEEEJ]

At the moment, an examination is being carried out to establish country where the MANPADS that shot down Russian Su-25 in Syria was manufactured. This was reported at the briefing by the official representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia Maria Zakharova, RBC correspondent reports.

"An examination is being conducted to determine where the MANPADS was manufactured. Such weapons can not fall into the hands of terrorists without serious support and accompaniment from outside, "she said.



Of course MANPADs can fall into the hands of terrorists without such support. Various groups in Syria overrun Syrian military bases and storage facilities. There is also the bases of the Iraqi army overrun by ISIS.

During 2013 Iraq requested from the US.

681 STINGER Reprogrammable Micro-Processor (RMP) Block I 92H Missiles

http://dsca.mil/sites/default/files/mas/iraq_12-67_0.pdf

U.S. officials with access to the latest U.S. intelligence on Iraq told Fox News it "appears likely/probable" that U.S.-made Stinger missiles have fallen into the hands of Sunni insurgents.

It is possible that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) fighters acquired them from army bases they have taken over in recent days, the sources said.

The Stinger missile is a shoulder-fired surface-to-air weapon that is used against aircraft.

As ISIS forces have advanced through Iraq, concerns have increased that more U.S.-made weaponry could fall into the hands of the radical group.

Iraqi intelligence officials said ISIS fighters managed to take control of two big weapons depots late last week holding some 400,000 items, including AK-47 rifles, rockets and rocket-propelled grenades, artillery shells and mortars. A quarter of the stockpiles were quickly sent to Syria in order to help the group's comrades there, they said.

US-made Stinger missiles have likely fallen into ISIS hands, officials say | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/06/16/us-made-stinger-missiles-have-likely-fallen-into-isis-hands-officials-say.html)

[glad rag]

At the moment, an examination is being carried out to establish country where the MANPADS that shot down Russian Su-25 in Syria was manufactured. This was reported at the briefing by the official representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia Maria Zakharova, RBC correspondent reports.

"An examination is being conducted to determine where the MANPADS was manufactured. Such weapons can not fall into the hands of terrorists without serious support and accompaniment from outside, "she said.

"Fragments are 100% not from ours system," a source in the Defense Ministry told RBC. "According to preliminary estimates, they belongs to the American third generation MANPADS. Range - up to 6 km, height - up to 4, plus strong protection from traps. At first we thought that it was "Osa" [SA-8 Gecko], the interlocutor added.


Maybe they should ask the Dutch about Russian SAM warhead forensics ...

...or is that one of those inconvienent truths??

[A_Van]

Don't understand why the question about "who manufactured the MANPAD?" is so important. As correctly mentioned above, there is quite a considerable black market for such devices accesible for all "bad guys". Could be Russian "Igla" taken from or lost (or even sold) by the Assad's regime or moved from Lybia, could be US ones moved from Iraq, could be Chinese, whatever. It is also clear that any modern MANPAD can easily reach such an aircraft as Su-25 at the altitude it was flying, especially as it did not maneuver and not used flares.
Just take into account that jihaddists in Syria now do have these toys and act accordingly.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

The wingman of hero pilot Major Roman Filipov...

“Yes, I see it,” Filipov said when his comrade warned him about militants launching a man-portable anti-aircraft missile at his plane.

“I’ve been hit,” he added calmly just moments later. “It’s a good hit.”

He saw it but didn't manouver at all? He saw it but didn't release flares?

[Kulverstukas]

He saw it but didn't manouver at all? He saw it but didn't release flares?

Honestly, all this wingman's interview sound fishy.

[Lonewolf_50]

A_Van, good points on MANPAD origins; it's been some years, but I recall seeing some info on the North Koreans selling MANPADS to selected customers for a number of years. Been over a decade since I saw this, but as you say the black market is alive and well.

[Kulverstukas]

A_Van, good points on MANPAD origins;...

Lonewolf, in case it's "Igla"[SA-18 Grouse], no question, it can be any source from about 36 countries it was officially imported + black market. But IF it has US (or other NATO country) origin...

[Always a Sapper]

Sadly as far as the political big picture is concerned it probably doesn't really matter who the OEM of the MANPAD really is/was when you take into account who is carrying out the investigation.

Even if it is of Russian or Chinese origin I really wouldn't be surprised to see the investigation coming back with a US or NATO origin as that is most likely to fit the required political agenda.

Someone is probably searching the shelves for enough bits to back the story already.


I say Chinese because IMHO everything that NK does is done following a quiet nod/request from their neighbours.

[Kulverstukas]

Last two days added on Israeli F16 and one Tukish heli downed in Syria.

[NutLoose]

My condolences to the family and friends of the pilot, what a sad but brave way to go, far better than what they had no doubt planned for him, one would imagine it will make those attempting to take pilots in the future more cautious and may aid their survival chances.

[Heathrow Harry]

"I say Chinese because IMHO everything that NK does is done following a quiet nod/request from their neighbours."

Plenty of evidence that hat isn't true - NK goes it's own way - especially for $$$ sales
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/27/china-north-korea-relationship-on-the-decline.html

" The decades-long strategic relationship between Beijing and Pyongyang is looking increasingly strained.

Traditionally reluctant to coerce Pyongyang, but under heavy pressure from Washington, the world's second-largest economy has been increasingly clamping down on its historical ally. Beijing has banned domestic lenders from doing business with North Korean clients in addition to halting certain exports in compliance with international sanctions — recent figures, however, showed a 3.7 percent annual increase in bilateral trade during the first nine months of the year.

The Chinese are increasingly realizing the North's nuclear program is harming Asian security, Renmin University associate professor Cheng Xiaohe told the Carnegie-Tsinghua Center for Global Policy in a recent podcast.

But tensions between Xi and Kim aren't new. Since Kim came to power, the bilateral relationship has entered a period of abnormal relations marked by a decline in economic ties and lack of political solidarity, Cheng said.