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ShotOne
2nd Feb 2018, 22:49
A UK police chief has announced that he wishes to end the 10% leeway so motorists are prosecuted even 1 mph above the speed limit. Let me say first, I don't condone speeding, particularly in residential areas. But when street crime like scooter robberies, drug dealing is rampant due to "insufficient resources" is this really the right priority?

Mostly Harmless
2nd Feb 2018, 22:59
Oh, that is easy. You are under the mistaken belief that law enforcement is there to protect you from crimes. It's actually about revenue generation for the local government... with a secondary function of protecting you from crime. :)

jolihokistix
2nd Feb 2018, 23:29
Protecting us from crime is surely a little further down the list.

llondel
3rd Feb 2018, 01:25
OK, so if he tries to do you for 1mph over the limit you ask for the specifications for the measuring equipment that prove that it is capable of achieving that accuracy. Perhaps modern stuff is, but my understanding for the old 10% leeway was because it removed all doubt as to the measurement error.

megan
3rd Feb 2018, 01:56
the old 10% leeway was because it removed all doubt as to the measurement errorWe went through this argument in Oz when they tried to implement lower exceedances. The Oz rule, same as Europe apparently, says,For a vehicle travelling at a true speed of 100km/h, the speedo must read between 100km/h and 114km/h. The effect of this is that many drivers will find that at 100km/h they are driving up to 14km/h below the speed limit if they rely on the vehicle’s speedo.

https://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-driving/safety-on-the-road/driving-safely/speedo-accuracy

jolihokistix
3rd Feb 2018, 02:57
This always reminds me of when I got a speedo reading of 200 mph on the main runway (RAF Marham) during a club trackday. The V-box on the dashboard gave me a disappointing satellite reading of only 179 mph, however.

Effluent Man
3rd Feb 2018, 04:34
A customer of mine once picked up a ticket fir 35 in a 30. With him being an old codger I was dubious. Then we had his Focus 2.0 Ghia in for a service. When I drove it we seemed to be going quite fast for the speed indicated. It turned out to have been fitted with a 1.6 speedo drive matched to the lower geared car. It was reading about 12% slow.

Wingswinger
3rd Feb 2018, 06:13
Chief Constables such as this one are getting above their station and needed to be reminded that their primary task is to prevent REAL crime and to track down criminals, not harass the law-abiding going about their daily business and pleasure.

DaveReidUK
3rd Feb 2018, 07:05
A UK police chief has announced that he wishes to end the 10% leeway so motorists are prosecuted even 1 mph above the speed limit.

No, he didn't. The "1 mph" was made up by the Daily Mail.

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 07:16
I really can't see a problem with this at all. All cars have, by law, a -0%. +10% tolerance on the speedometer and have had for decades. In other words, even with worn and under-inflated tyres the speedometer cannot possibly read low. In practice all speedometers over-read, because it suits the manufacturers to have cars that give optimistic speed displays and covers them in the event of someone running on near-bald and under-inflated tyres.

My car reads a constant +10% below 50mph and then a constant 5mph above it's true speed above 50mph. It's a very well known characteristic, every car of this model I've owned has been the same and there are lots of comments on the relevant forums discussing it. It's easy to see this as the speed on the GPS is always lower than the speedometer reading.

So, if I drive at a steady indicated 30mph, in reality the car is really going at around 27mph, well within the 30mph speed limit. Even if I were to let the speed creep up a bit, to an indicated 31 or 32 mph I'd still be inside the 30mph limit.

I can't see what's wrong with removing what is an ancient rule that dates back to a time when car speedometers were pretty inaccurate, driven by a spinning magnet and a spring loaded alloy induction cup. Just how many cars are there on the road today that still have these old and potentially inaccurate cable driven speedometers, and how many of that small number are likely to be defective so that they under-read?

We're all getting our "speeding allowance" via our car speedometers under-reading, and I see no need at all to have an additional 10% "speeding allowance" added to that. The fact remains that speed has a more effect on accident outcomes than pretty much anything else, thanks to simple physics. The accident impact energy is proportional to the square of the vehicle speed, so a few miles an hour slower can make the difference between a survivable and a non-survivable impact, especially in a 20mph or 30mph zone, where the impact may well be with a pedestrian or cyclist.

Krystal n chips
3rd Feb 2018, 07:21
Chief Constables such as this one are getting above their station and needed to be reminded that their primary task is to prevent REAL crime and to track down criminals, not harass the law-abiding going about their daily business and pleasure.

Wingers.....couldn't agree more old boy about those in authority, albeit " some time ago ".

It was a well established practice ( for some of us ) to get from West to East on the peri track at HM's Cat A Gulag ( or St.Athan if you prefer ) in the early evening and certainly on Friday when ATC had shut down by attempting to get to an indicated 100mph + ....this one did, several times, but then one summers evening, a little Mini appeared with a blue light and containing a RAF plod ( never noted for intellectual capability ) who accused one of speeding !.....however, when asked to provide the evidence to this scurrilous claim, and with one helpfully mentioning as to how he recorded my alleged speed, one was subjected to dire threats as to ones future.

Not that these had any effect...

Dan_Brown
3rd Feb 2018, 08:07
Problem is, most people will be concentrationing or dwelling on their speed, to the detriment of actually doing what they're suppossed to be doing. That is driving the effin vehicale. Bit like flying VFR and no lookout. The lot that propose this, are total imbecles.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 08:15
Oh, that is easy. You are under the mistaken belief that law enforcement is there to protect you from crimes. It's actually about revenue generation for the local government... with a secondary function of protecting you from crime. :)
Do tell how this works then - in 14 years in local government I and my colleagues never discovered how to get our hands on a single penny from any such source.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 08:17
Chief Constables such as this one are getting above their station and needed to be reminded that their primary task is to prevent REAL crime and to track down criminals, not harass the law-abiding going about their daily business and pleasure.
You can remind yours any time you like, through the usual channels - most police priorities are set locally, so if local people want speeding at the top of the list that's what they get, or if they want gun crime at the top of the list that's what they get.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 08:18
Problem is, most people will be concentrationing or dwelling on their speed
Not me, it's a fraction of a second to flick the cruise control on, job done.

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 08:55
Problem is, most people will be concentrationing or dwelling on their speed, to the detriment of actually doing what they're suppossed to be doing. That is driving the effin vehicale. Bit like flying VFR and no lookout. The lot that propose this, are total imbecles.

So basically, what you're saying is that drivers in a 30mph zone should be allowed to drive at up to an indicated 36mph (the +10% built-in to the speedometer, plus the 10% "enforcement allowance") because they are so crap at driving that they cannot maintain their speed?

Ever flown a glider? If you have you will know full well that it's second nature to hold best glide speed within about +/- 1kt without looking down at the ASI. In fact looking at the ASI is a near-certain recipe for drifting away from the desired speed very quickly.

I see no reason whatsoever why car drivers shouldn't be able to stay within the current +10% allowance on their speedometer. Any that can't frankly shouldn't be on the road, IMHO.

clareprop
3rd Feb 2018, 09:01
I recall this coming up about 15 years ago having been instigated by a particularly righteous chief constable. The result was him being trailed by the tabloids until one caught his driver (with him in the car) doing 34 in a 30 zone. It sort of faded away after that.

Sallyann1234
3rd Feb 2018, 09:02
I don't condone speeding but...

I'm not a racist but...

I don't get my opinions from the Mail but...

WingNut60
3rd Feb 2018, 09:06
Not me, it's a fraction of a second to flick the cruise control on, job done.

I use cruise a lot; much more than the average driver I suspect.

Pulling away from lights with cruise pre-set from previous sector is no problem, just flick cruise while accelerating and getting close to target speed as judged or confirmed from speedo. Let cruise capture target speed.

Similar process for new sector with different speed limit. Accelerate manually to near target speed as judged and confirmed from speedo. I can normally judge pretty close, may go over a tad on occasions but not a major hassle. Flick cruise and then adjust up, or very occasionally down, as required.

No problem; no tickets. What's the difficulty in that?

chuks
3rd Feb 2018, 09:07
We just got a letter from Zams, Tyrol, Austria yesterday. It was about a speeding offense, sent to my wife since she's the registered owner of the family car.

Her car is a BMW 330xd that's geared to do 245 kmh (152 mph) on the clock, which is of course something less on the road, and our son had borrowed that car to "go sledding in Ischgl" with some Russian bint he had met on the slopes during our family ski holiday in Galtür.

I was expecting something very special, but it seems that he was zapped doing 88 kmh in a tunnel zoned for 80, 55 mph instead of 50. What is the matter with today's youth?! You call that "speeding"? Speeding is doing 162, 100 mph on the clock! We loan him this powerful car with a twin-turbo diesel and all-wheel-drive and this is the best he can do?

On the other hand, the Austrian authorities want 30 euros for that, so that's okay; that's serious money for being just 5 mph too fast. (If being over by 10% costs 30 euros, one wonders what a righteous 100% exceedance should cost.)

The Austrians nailed a German biker for going around a curve with his wheels on the correct side of the solid white line but his head over there on the wrong side. No traffic, no particular risk, not even speeding, but, yes, the head over the white line so that if a log truck had been coming the other way and the biker had not thought to move his head out of the way then he could have been decapitated or something.

Thank Christ we have the police looking out for us.

I am sure that my son will have learned his lesson from this: If you are going to be ticketed for speeding then, FFS, put up some big numbers!

There was this unfortunate German (them again) who used a tunnel in Hamburg to go to and from work on his motorcycle. This tunnel has a Blitzgerät that uses an invisible flash so as not to blind motorists in that relatively dark tunnel. Too, this is one of the older machines that only shows the offending motorist and his number plate from the front. (In Germany they need also to see your face as evidence; merely showing your number plate is not enough.) Motorcycles usually escape detection because of the lack of a front number plate, but ....

Our happy biker ended up being blitzed about 170 times, each time unaware of that because of the invisible flash from the machine. Same bike, same biker, same time of day on each image, so that the cops finally put a cop on a bike there in the tunnel one day, when they intercepted him. The biker seems to be in a bit of trouble now.

Germans have this tic that makes them hate to see anyone get away with anything. Denunciation is ingrained in German society for this reason. Radar traps that fail to catch bikes because of that lack of a front number plate have thus been a major annoyance to your average boxhead, and for years.

Now the filth are using a more modern device that takes two pictures, one from the front and another from the back. (This thing is a grey, cylindrical column with two dark bands, about five feet high, planted by the side of the road.) Too, the Germans are now starting with the same "average speed devices" that rely on the reading of the number plate at two different locations that you have in the UK. Undetectable, unbeatable, unless your name is "Bond, James Bond," and you remember to flip to a different plate on your Aston Martin DB5.

Here in the Fatherland there shall be no more partial immunity for bikers; we shall all be in it together.

Sallyann, I do get my opinions from the Daily Mail. You have a problem with that, or what?

Dan_Brown
3rd Feb 2018, 09:17
I normally maintain betweem 25 and 30 mph in a 30 mph area.Schools 20mph regardless. However when i get anywhere near below the speed limit I am normally tailgated. By a driver, in a German manufactured car, mostly.

Vp Flying without reference to ASI? Oh I've done that before don't worry about that. In an earlier career 45 years ago, part of the training was you learnt to fly the aircraft (powered) with the ASI hidden from you, the handling pilot. Low level, VFR. So I do have some idea what im on about a far as speed by feel, maintance is concerned.

Sallyann1234
3rd Feb 2018, 09:28
Sallyann, I do get my opinions from the Daily Mail. You have a problem with that, or what?
It's not my problem.
Go for it. :ok:

skydiver69
3rd Feb 2018, 09:31
I don't know one front line PC who supports Bangham's proposal and if you look at the Police Oracle news website you'll see that his idea was slagged off by everyone who commented on the story. PO then ran a follow up story which also criticised the proposal.

Bangham's premise is that the law is the law and that it doesn't take very long to write a ticket for a speeding offence. This however ignores two truths. First police 'ignore' or use their discretion in a wide range of situations which often helps to diffuse situations and lets PCs come across as human and reasonable. Removing that discretion would therefore be counter productive and would alienate a vast swathe of people who may have made a genuine mistake with their speed. It would also be hypercritical of us if we enforced the law to the nth degree for speeding but didn't take the same approach to shop lifting for example. In addition there are so few traffic and response PCs around nowadays that they don't have the time to write tickets. In my force traffic cops stop work at 0200 with firearms taking over traffic duties on the motorway. I think that what few traffic officers which are left should concentrate of poor driving standards and not on people driving just a few MPH over the speed limit. Tailgating, drink driving, mobile phone use, jumping red lights etc is far more dangerous than 1 mph over the limit.

Krystal n chips
3rd Feb 2018, 09:51
This should go down well with those who feel the RTA doesn't apply to them......and that drivers are being "persecuted " as they are wont to say.

https://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/derbyshire-woman-fined-almost-1-000-for-driving-6mph-over-the-speed-limit-1-8998846

A suitably attention grabbing headline, but, when you read the story, she has nobody but herself to blame.

G-CPTN
3rd Feb 2018, 10:08
Many years ago, I was driving my 'souped up' saloon in my university town when I stopped at traffic lights.
A chancer stopped alongside me, so, when the lights went green I gave it as much as I could but lost out initially to my challenger, but managed to pass him as he slowed - before being waved-down by a policeman.
"And how fast do you think you were going?"
"Oh, second gear, 30 mph . . ."
"Come come, sir. The car that you overtook went through the radar beam at 40 mph. Unfortunately that doesn't prove that you were going faster than that, however, we have got our eye on you and will be looking out for you!"

Krystal n chips
3rd Feb 2018, 10:37
Ever flown a glider? If you have you will know full well that it's second nature to hold best glide speed within about +/- 1kt without looking down at the ASI. In fact looking at the ASI is a near-certain recipe for drifting away from the desired speed very quickly.



Erm yes, "once or twice " and nobody I know can claim to fly to + / - 1kt accuracy.....in still air, possibly with the trim set because I encountered this once between Eindhoven and Weert ( before landing in a field adjacent to a quaintly named establishment "Chateaux de Sade ") , but certainly not when in a lumpy thermal, in wave rotor or a near limits cross wind approach . And if you don't monitor the ASI, that's a very good recipe for suddenly finding out the hard way how spins and stalls occur.

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 10:40
Personally, I can't really see a problem with the current policy at motorway speeds, as the risks are demonstrably low (motorways and dual carriageways are pretty safe compared to other roads, IIRC).

The real issue is in urban areas, in 20mph, 30mph or perhaps even 40mph, limits, where a small increase in speed has a disproportionate effect on the outcome of an accident, particularly when it comes to accidents involving pedestrians or cyclists.

I can't really see this being a major issue for the police, as speeding offences in these areas seem to be primarily caught by cameras.

So why not have a sensible compromise. Allow the police to use judgement in the way that skydiver69 mentions above, but remove the +10% allowance from all urban speed cameras?

From most of the stuff I've read the main issue with the majority of drivers who drive too fast seems to be in urban areas, anyway. The ones that hit the headlines are the very tiny minority who drive at silly speeds on open roads, but that doesn't necessarily mean they pose the greatest risk.

Andy_S
3rd Feb 2018, 11:02
Not me, it's a fraction of a second to flick the cruise control on, job done.

It's not always practical to drive on cruise control, though. I generally have mine switched on all the time and it works well when cruising on a motorway or dual carriageway. But my cruise control disengages the moment I brake or change gear, and since this happens frequently on busy or windy single carriageway roads it's just not worthwhile re-engaging it.

While I generally agree, though, that with sat-nav and other systems built into modern cars there are less excuses to be unaware of the speed limit, sometimes even drivers with the best of intentions may drift slightly over the limit. What worries me about these proposals is that they could remove any discretion traffic police have for dealing with very minor transgressions.

Am I the only person to suspect that in recent years a new generation of senior police officers have come to prominence who seem to have a worrying appetite for criminalising as many people as possible? Not just on the roads, but generally - obviously the recent rape trials come to mind.......

Kiltrash
3rd Feb 2018, 11:13
My car has cruise and speed limiter
Cruise for dual carriageways and Motorways, Speed limiter for any area 20-30-40-50 mph etc so I cant accidentally speed

Gives the Police more time to catch real criminals

RedhillPhil
3rd Feb 2018, 11:17
"UK police chief want to prosecute drivers going 1 mph over the limit".
Non-story.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.

419
3rd Feb 2018, 11:29
https://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/derbyshire-woman-fined-almost-1-000-for-driving-6mph-over-the-speed-limit-1-8998846

A suitably attention grabbing headline, but, when you read the story, she has nobody but herself to blame.
A stupid woman who thought that the law didn't apply to her.
provided she was eligible then in all likelihood she would have been offered a speed awareness course (at a cost of about £80 to £100) or if she had taken the 3 points there would have been a fine of £100.

Instead of either of these two options, she now has 6 points and has to pay £998 and declare this to her insurers for the next 5 years.

Pali
3rd Feb 2018, 11:37
Let's forget about the accuracy of the speed measurement in the car for a moment and let's speak about the police radar. How precise can they get? I am certain that any measurement tool must have a certification on the margins of error. It has something to do with instruments itself, geometry of measurement (angles can affect readings and shouldn't exceed 11° I guess), weather etc., not to speak about measuring speed from non stationery police vehicle.

I can imagine that fining 1mph "speeding" could be challenged on the court.

But there is another important thing to consider. I've watched once a TV document about a behavioural test and they studied how draconian rules actually affect safety. And in fact it increased the risks. If drivers knew that they could be fined heavily even for small speed transgression they started to bother too much for their speed. Now guess what! Instead of looking out of the window and trying to spot any danger on the road they checked their speedometer so often that this can be deemed as heavy distraction from driving itself. The test used cameras which detected view of drivers and they calculated how often motorists ceased to watch the road and checked instruments instead. Result? This pattern of driving is actually more dangerous than having few mph too much on the speedometer.

Fareastdriver
3rd Feb 2018, 11:45
Years ago there was a holdup at Hangers Lane at the junction with the North circular. I was going into London and eventually it was my turn to be released by the traffic lights.

As I accelerated a traffic cop on a motorcycle appeared beside me and starting punching his hand down the road. This I interpreted as an instruction to speed up so I did. He stayed beside me as I went to 35, then to 40 and he dropped behind when I reached 50 to chivvy on the car behind.

Can you imagine that happening nowadays.

goudie
3rd Feb 2018, 12:38
I've been behind drivers doing 28/34 mph and as soon as they see a camera slam on the breaks, regardless of traffic behind them. Yes I know one should keep a safe distance behind but it can still be rather off-putting.

ShotOne
3rd Feb 2018, 12:42
My issue here isn't particularly about the speed (no, it wasn't made up by DM; I read about it on BBC) it's about allocation of resources. On one hand our roads are safer than they have ever been. On the other, many thefts, street crime, criminal damage and "minor" burglaries are simply not investigated at all due to "lack of resources".

Mr Optimistic
3rd Feb 2018, 12:52
Well I have never had a speeding ticket but don't claim to be a particularly good driver: being lucky is better than having skill. I have noticed that I drive at a speed I feel is right for the circumstances and was surprised on checking that this is often less than 30 in town. However where I have trouble is in roads for which the speed limit seems too low, the A6 round here being a case in point for which I think the limit should be 50 not 40, as it used to be. Oddly, that stretch was the second highest grossing speed camera revenue area when the average cameras were installed.

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 13:00
Let's forget about the accuracy of the speed measurement in the car for a moment and let's speak about the police radar. How precise can they get? I am certain that any measurement tool must have a certification on the margins of error. It has something to do with instruments itself, geometry of measurement (angles can affect readings and shouldn't exceed 11° I guess), weather etc., not to speak about measuring speed from non stationery police vehicle.

I can imagine that fining 1mph "speeding" could be challenged on the court.

But there is another important thing to consider. I've watched once a TV document about a behavioural test and they studied how draconian rules actually affect safety. And in fact it increased the risks. If drivers knew that they could be fined heavily even for small speed transgression they started to bother too much for their speed. Now guess what! Instead of looking out of the window and trying to spot any danger on the road they checked their speedometer so often that this can be deemed as heavy distraction from driving itself. The test used cameras which detected view of drivers and they calculated how often motorists ceased to watch the road and checked instruments instead. Result? This pattern of driving is actually more dangerous than having few mph too much on the speedometer.

The radar guns with laser finders are better than 1mph in terms of accuracy, apparently, at least that's what I've heard about the training given to our local community speedwatch people.

The speed cameras use a fixed doppler radar, and are probably at least as accurate, probably more accurate, than the hand held guns.

Most of the mobile radar traps I've seen in the past few years haven't been operated by the police, they've been doppler radar units either fitted to a parked van operated by a company contracted to run them, or on a few occasions I've seen them on tripod stands on bridges, I'm not sure if it's the police operating them or not.

Not sure what systems the police use in cars now, probably GPS. I believe the police used to use a specially calibrated speedometer in some cars, that had to have a rolling road check periodically, and I know they've also used the time between two known markers as a mean speed check in the past, with a bit of kit in the car that produced a hard copy print out of mean speed (I learned this from practical experience many years ago). My guess is that they now mainly use the GPS speed displayed on their on-board video as evidence now. We seem to have at least one police officer posting in this thread, so perhaps he/she may know better.

Chronus
3rd Feb 2018, 13:13
Here is a little tale about PC plod and his speed radar gun.

Two British traffic patrol horifficers from North Berwick were involved in an unusual incident while checking for speeding motorists on the A1 Great Nort h Road . One of the horifficers used a hand-held radar device to check the speed of a vehicle approaching over the crest of a hill, and was surprised when the speed was recorded at over 300 mph. Their radar suddenly stopped working and the constabules were not able to reset it.

Just then a deafening roar over the treetops revealed that the radar had in fact latched on to a RAF Tornado fighter jet which was engaged in a low-flying exercise over the Border district, approaching from the North Sea .

Back at police headquarters the chief constable fired off a stiff complaint to the RAF Liaison office.

Back came the reply in true laconic RAF style:

"Thank you for your message, which allows us to complete the file on this incident. You may be interested to know that the tactical computer in the Tornado had detected the presence of, and subsequently locked onto, your hostile radar equipment and automatically sent a jamming signal back to it. Furthermore, an air-to-ground missile aboard the fully-armed aircraft had also automatically locked onto your equipment. Fortunately the pilot flying the Tornado recognized the situation for what it was, quickly responded to the missile systems alert status, and was able to override the automated defence system before the missile was launched and your hostile radar installation was destroyed.

DaveReidUK
3rd Feb 2018, 13:19
Ah, that old chestnut again ...

Snopes: Did a hand-held police radar unit almost cause the launching of a missile? (https://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/radar.asp)

radeng
3rd Feb 2018, 13:53
An old 'rule of thumb' is that your measuring equipment should have ten times the accuracy of that which you are trying to measure. That gets you within a 95% certainty. So for 30 mph, you need a measurement accuracy of 0.3 mph for the 95% certainty. To go to smaller measurement uncertainty, you need a much better accuracy and discrimination. The difference between 30 and 31mph is 1.47 ft/sec or about 1.76 inches/sec, so you would need to discriminate to better than say 0.2 inches/sec for 95% certainty. I do wonder what the magistrates would say if a barrister started getting the prosecution to admit that they were only 95% certain that the speed was actually 31mph.

Somehow, I don't think CC Plod has ever done any study of measurement uncertainties - he's probably never even heard of them!

Art E. Fischler-Reisen
3rd Feb 2018, 13:54
Years ago I flew for a police air support unit. We were in the base crew room when the evening news showed a senior police officer being interviewed under a set of speed cameras just off a motorway. He was there to try to dispel the strong local rumour that these were only there to raise revenue and were an expensive white elephant. He emphasised that this was not the case, and that it was only for a trial six months long and that they were there as a deterrent. He also stated that the cost of the cameras would be met from fines collected. Six months later, another senior police officer from the same force stated that he found it disappointing that not as many motorists as expected had been caught speeding! His statement was met with howls of derision by the duty crew, who were ex traffic department.

As for the six month trial, some 16 years or so later, the cameras are still there.

radeng
3rd Feb 2018, 14:06
I believe it was announced that Swindon (Thamesdown Borough Council) were stopping funding speed cameras since the resulting fines went to the Treasury.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 14:10
Somehow, I don't think CC Plod has ever done any study of measurement uncertainties - he's probably never even heard of them!
I would expect that the police are aware of the calibration procedures but not aware of the technical detail. Which they don't need to be, that's what the procedures are there for.

DaveReidUK
3rd Feb 2018, 14:21
The difference between 30 and 31mph is 1.47 ft/sec or about 1.76 inches/sec

You might want to try new batteries in your calculator.

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 14:24
I've just had a look around at a reasonably wide range of commercially available radar/lidar hand-held speed measurement units and they all seem to have the same accuracy spec of +/- 1mph, or rather strangely, +/- 2kmh.

So that implies that present systems most probably aren't specified to a sufficiently high accuracy standard to allow a "1mph over the speed limit" charge to stick. At best they could argue that if you were recorded at, say, 32mph you were exceeding the 30mph limit.

That seems reasonable, but frankly I find it hard to see why the accuracy is that limited. Technically it's pretty damned easy to get a fixed doppler radar to deliver an accuracy that's better than +/- 1mph at vehicle speeds of 20mph of more. Using lidar, with it's inherently narrower beam width reduced susceptibility to interference, I would have thought that getting better than +/- 0.1mph should be pretty easy.

My home made ultrasonic doppler wind speed and direction sensor manages 0.1mph without any trouble, and the measurement challenges for that are greater than for a doppler lidar or radar.

radeng
3rd Feb 2018, 14:25
Gertrude

I would expect that the police are aware of the calibration procedures but not aware of the technical detail. Which they don't need to be, that's what the procedures are there for.

Which is why the CC should not be making proposals that are very difficult to implement and of little real usefulness.

If you ever get a chance to see a copy of 'Radio Laboratory Handbook' by M.G. Scroggie, see the start of Chapter 3 on measurements. (Doesn't matter which edition -it's the same in all of them from 2 to 8)

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 14:25
I would expect that the police are aware of the calibration procedures but not aware of the technical detail. Which they don't need to be, that's what the procedures are there for.

There is a standard field calibration technique for these things, apparently, using a tuning fork, so the police or other operators may well be familiar with checking their accuracy.

Blues&twos
3rd Feb 2018, 14:46
"Checking the accuracy" of an instrument, by the operator, is not calibration. As Sallyann has alluded to, calibration is a much more complex process covering a number points over at least the instrument's normally used range, taking into account the repeatability, measurement uncertainties and reference instrument tolerances. The reference instrument must also have a valid certified calibration of greater accuracy than that of the instrument/process being calibrated, usually to national traceable standards.
I would have thought that speed detection equipment is calibrated by a specialist contractor rather than by the police.

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 15:12
The tuning fork method looks to be pretty good, though. Tuning forks are pretty damned accurate and you only need four or five to check the accuracy of the radar gun in the field pretty easily, according to the manufacturers blurb.

It's not really calibration, as such, just a field check that the unit is still reading speeds accurately. Having tuning forks for, say 30mph, 40mph, 50mph, 60mph and 70mph would cover pretty much every condition where one of these units was to be used.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 15:14
I would have thought that speed detection equipment is calibrated by a specialist contractor rather than by the police.
I would expect so, yes. The job of the police is simply to make sure they only use a device with a valid current calibration certificate (which hasn't been abused/damaged/whatever since the last calibration), no?

funfly
3rd Feb 2018, 15:38
As a very proud member of a well known Motoring organisation, I try to maintain 30mph in a 30mph zone, however I am sure that my speed will occasionally go over the 30 at times. What bothers me is the line of cars that impatiently gang up behind me, obviously holding up their progress.
It's not the cars just over the speed limit but the ones well over the speed limit. 40mph is very common in 30 zones. Have you ever driven at 70mph on a motorway and had a clear left hand lane to yourself while the outer two lanes are chock a block with people at high speed?
Someone once commented that when you stop at a motorway service station have a look at the people around you, then realise that these are the same people behind the wheels of the cars screaming down the motorway!

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 16:02
As a very proud member of a well known Motoring organisation, I try to maintain 30mph in a 30mph zone, however I am sure that my speed will occasionally go over the 30 at times. What bothers me is the line of cars that impatiently gang up behind me, obviously holding up their progress.
It's not the cars just over the speed limit but the ones well over the speed limit. 40mph is very common in 30 zones. Have you ever driven at 70mph on a motorway and had a clear left hand lane to yourself while the outer two lanes are chock a block with people at high speed?
Someone once commented that when you stop at a motorway service station have a look at the people around you, then realise that these are the same people behind the wheels of the cars screaming down the motorway!



I'm pretty sure that most of our problems with speeding are in areas with 20/30/40mph speed limits, and my experience has been similar to yours - if you stick closely to the speed limit often cars will tailgate or try and overtake.

In most cases, those speed restrictions are there for a very good reason. The 30mph restriction that starts just before the turn, which is off a tight bend, into our village is pretty typical. It was put in place because there were a number of serious accidents there. One of the first houses off that turn has what looks like a pretty sturdy black painted fence, until you look closely, and find it's actually made from 8" wide steel I beams. Apparently they got fed up with cars taking the bend too fast, losing control and crashing into their front room.

I can't see why we can't clamp down on speeding in areas like this. So what if a few motorists believe that it's just a money-making scheme - it costs the NHS an estimated £1bn a year to treat road accident victims, so just hypothecate the revenue from speeding fines to the NHS.

You only need to be involved in one car-on-pedestrian accident to realise the consequences of driving too fast when people and cyclists are about. A car hitting a body can do a staggering amount of damage, and once you've witnessed a pedestrian propelled up and over your car, coming partially through the windscreen and bending the centre of the roof down to the top of the steering wheel it does tend to make you very aware that you're driving a potentially lethal weapon.

As for dual carriageways and motorways, then as these are far safer than other roads (you are 7 times more likely to be involved in an accident on a single carriageway road) then there is a reasonable argument to support focussing resources on preventing speeding on single carriageway and urban roads.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 16:37
Have you ever driven at 70mph on a motorway and had a clear left hand lane to yourself while the outer two lanes are chock a block with people at high speed?
I have certainly many many times driven at 70mph on a motorway and had a clear left hand lane to myself while the outer two lanes are chock a block with people doing about 60.

Sevarg
3rd Feb 2018, 16:44
I wouldn't put to much trust in cruse control, I had a hire car in Oz were the speed was +/- 10 kph!

KelvinD
3rd Feb 2018, 18:12
Aah! Good old Scroggie. Otherwise known as the bible!
Does anyone remember the early days of hand held radar guns, aka "hairdryers"? There was an incident in which a bin lorry was clocked at a phenomenal speed. It didn't take long to discover this was due to a child's plastic windmill stuck in the radiator grill. And the blades had been covered in tin foil!

pineridge
3rd Feb 2018, 19:02
Kelvin D said-----

"It didn't take long to discover this was due to a child's plastic windmill stuck in the radiator grill. "

What happened to the kid?

RAT 5
3rd Feb 2018, 19:39
"UK police chief want to prosecute drivers going 1 mph over the limit".
Non-story. Nothing to see here. Move along.

On the contrary, IF this is true. If someone of proven suitability has risen to the top of a police force, and this is what they consider a priority and lose some sleep about how to 'get it through', then they should not be there. They have proved themselves unsuitable. IMHO.
No discussion, nada, nienti, period: move along. Utter waste of resources. Talk of breaking the law: LoL. The penalty would not fit the crime, therefore the law would be an ass.

No tin hat; don't give a rat's ..........

TWT
3rd Feb 2018, 20:08
You might want to try new batteries in your calculator.

Decimal point in wrong place. 17.64 inches/sec ;)

MungoP
3rd Feb 2018, 20:42
Said it many times before.. say it again.. speed may have an impact on the result of an accident but bad driving at ANY speed is the cause.. Get rid of the incompetent drivers whatever their speed. No government has the guts to do that.

andytug
3rd Feb 2018, 21:11
Typical government attitude, soundbite politics on some easily measured but cheaply policed thing, when the main issues (which aren't so easily measured) are what really needs sorting but will never get touched because it's to expensive in these austere times to do so.
There are hundreds of occasions when to drive at on or near the speed limit would be dangerous, weather being the most obvious. There are way too many unnecessary 20mph limits, and lots of limits that are too high. Place a camera outside every school, bring it on! Putting one up where a limit changes on a dual carriageway with no houses is pure money making not safety.
We have average speed cameras now on the dual carriageway near us, limit reduced from 70mph to 50. No reduction in accidents as most are due to crossing traffic doing stupid things like not waiting. In first six weeks nearly 3000 tickets issued, top speed 101mph so clearly not a deterrent either. All that happens is all the traffic bunches up as they can no longer overtake without being ticketed. Waste of time and money, but saves on policing so someone's budget looks better, and that's all there is to it.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 21:22
speed may have an impact on the result of an accident
The reduction ad absurdum is quite straightforward:

Very few accidents happen when all participants are moving at zero speed. Excessive speed (for the conditions, which include the competence of the drivers) is, therefore, always involved in every accident.

longer ron
3rd Feb 2018, 21:24
Ah yes 'electronic calibration' - many years ago 'somewhere in surrey' I used to work in a flight test hangar with built in floor weighbridge in the correct pattern for our jet with outrigger wheels.
One day we had a mass discrepancy (weight asymmetry) between P+S wing outriggers (80kg ish I think),I got it in the neck for not defuelling the wings properly LOL.So I said to supervision that the mickey mouse electronic scales were inaccurate - they said ''can't be they have just been calibrated''.
I repeated that they are just mickey mouse electronic scales,which prompted a bit of a ding dong.
Anyway I said ok lets get 4 peeps on the stbd scale and take a reading,we then moved the same 4 lardarses onto the port scale and hey presto there was a rather large discrepancy :).

As to the speeding thing - well I subscribe to the view that there are many bad and dangerous drivers on our road and at the moment some people are trying to turn drivers into 'clockwatchers',we recently followed a large pick up along the M62 at approx 65mph - he was all over the road swerving both sides of his middle lane,when he briefly looked like he was in control we squirted quickly past and noticed that he was reading an official looking letter which he had spread over the steering wheel and was looking down at it - jeezus words failed me :eek:
We probably did briefly speed a little to get past but we preferred to be ahead of him.
When he had finished reading - he then went zooming past us in a straight line :cool:

glad rag
3rd Feb 2018, 21:27
Not me, it's a fraction of a second to flick the cruise control on, job done.

I bet you drive right down the middle too, just because you can...

funfly
3rd Feb 2018, 21:33
I would make two comments-
Its bad driving, not the speed that causes accidents.
BUT
Hitting someone at 20 mph does a lot less damage than hitting someone at 40.

If I have to be honest the reason that I drive within the speed limits has more to do with the fear of being caught by speed cameras than the fear of my faster driving.

I would totally agree that speedo watching all the time takes concentration off the road ahead. Looking outside of the cockpit if the most important safety thing.

VP959
3rd Feb 2018, 21:35
Ah yes 'electronic calibration' - many years ago 'somewhere in surrey' I used to work in a flight test hangar with built in floor weighbridge in the correct pattern for our jet with outrigger wheels.
One day we had a mass discrepancy (weight asymmetry) between P+S wing outriggers (80kg ish I think),I got it in the neck for not defuelling the wings properly LOL.So I said to supervision that the mickey mouse electronic scales were inaccurate - they said ''can't be they have just been calibrated''.
I repeated that they are just mickey mouse electronic scales,which prompted a bit of a ding dong.
Anyway I said ok lets get 4 peeps on the stbd scale and take a reading,we then moved the same 4 lardarses onto the port scale and hey presto there was a rather large discrepancy :).



I've seen the same thing, when using three linked portable weighing scale plates to do a weight and balance check. The aircraft was carefully rolled up the ramps on to the scales, with each wheel dead centre on the plate. The scales had been tared off to zero before hand, but when I'd done it I'd not actually been looking at the scale plates, I was operating the console.

We had a similar error of around 80kg, and being suspicious I just asked where the others were when I was tareing off the system to zero. It turned out that one of the young lads had been sitting on one of the scale plates at the time..............

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2018, 21:43
I bet you drive right down the middle too, just because you can...
The middle of what? - the middle of the lane in traffic in town, I do, certainly, so that cyclists have the option of passing me on either side.

longer ron
3rd Feb 2018, 22:00
I've seen the same thing,
We had a similar error of around 80kg, and being suspicious I just asked where the others were when I was tareing off the system to zero. It turned out that one of the young lads had been sitting on one of the scale plates at the time..............



Excellent :) -
Of course one can also be let down by electronic scales in more basic ways - many years ago I was a young,good looking BGA inspector and had a half share in a very heavy 2 seat metal glider.When springtime came along it was time to put the wings on the beast (ooh me achin back :)) and then weight the damn thing.
Being well organised - I put my brand new electronic scales in the car the night before,we then had a really cold night and (lo and behold) - when we got to the glider next morning,the brand new scales were absolutely blank :),the cold night had completely forked the battery LOL.
Luckily I had my old mechanical scales in the boot as it was a nice day to fly :)

All true except for the 'good looking' bit :cool:

llondel
4th Feb 2018, 01:07
Part of the reason for a wider tolerance on the accuracy comes from the environment. Your speed gun has to hold the stated accuracy over a range of temperature and humidity. You've got to account for spurious reflections which can distort the answer too, and even lasers have side lobes on the beam which could provide a return from some unwanted object. Any digital device is always going to be +/-1 in the last digit anyway, although I'd expect a modern speed gun to show to tenths of a mph to overcome this to some extent.

I would expect a modern speed gun to be pretty good, especially compared with the earlier models, bu it can still be screwed up by being operated in an improper fashion. A tale from the past is the chap who got off a speeding conviction because the radar gun's manual stated that it should not be operated with X metres of power lines, and he showed that plod had set up within such a distance. No idea if it's true though, but it is believable.

MG23
4th Feb 2018, 03:56
In most cases, those speed restrictions are there for a very good reason.

Not unless something has changed dramatically in the last ten years.

Yes, at one point in the distant past, British speed limits were set based on sensible guidelines, for cars that were incapable of driving safely at high speeds. But by the 90s, they had largely become a political ploy: as cars' handling and brakes improved, the government were cutting speed limits all over the country.

Why? Because they could. And because it brought in money from fines on drivers who were driving perfectly safely above some arbitrarily-set speed limit.

BTW, the Transport Research Lab showed years ago that increasing speed limits often resulted in traffic slowing down, because unrealistically low speed limits made drivers think 'well, I'm driving over the limit anyway, so might as well drive as fast as I want', whereas they were willing to follow a reasonable limit.

Krystal n chips
4th Feb 2018, 04:20
Said it many times before.. say it again.. speed may have an impact on the result of an accident but bad driving at ANY speed is the cause.. Get rid of the incompetent drivers whatever their speed. No government has the guts to do that.

Absolutely !......can we assume you will be setting an example therefore, as in getting rid of incompetent drivers ? ...this query based purely on your own proud record of multiple speeding fines, two accidents and, erm, a rather self incriminatory admission that you treat the RTA with disdain.

@longeron....but not as good looking, he says modestly, as this former BGA inspector...sorry to disappoint you. ;) :E

Anyway, why were you weighing a Blanik...did it put on weight over Christmas and its winter hibernation ?. :p

VP959
4th Feb 2018, 08:23
Not unless something has changed dramatically in the last ten years.

Yes, at one point in the distant past, British speed limits were set based on sensible guidelines, for cars that were incapable of driving safely at high speeds. But by the 90s, they had largely become a political ploy: as cars' handling and brakes improved, the government were cutting speed limits all over the country.

Why? Because they could. And because it brought in money from fines on drivers who were driving perfectly safely above some arbitrarily-set speed limit.

BTW, the Transport Research Lab showed years ago that increasing speed limits often resulted in traffic slowing down, because unrealistically low speed limits made drivers think 'well, I'm driving over the limit anyway, so might as well drive as fast as I want', whereas they were willing to follow a reasonable limit.

There is still a process for assessing road safety before putting a speed limit in place. The 30mph limit on the road junction that leads to our village that I mentioned is a good example. There were several accidents over a period of a few years when the road was unrestricted, and only after the highways people had conducted a series of vehicle traffic density and speed measurements, over a period of around a year, did they allow the 30mph limit to be imposed. Since then I don't think there has been a single accident.

I agree that there may well be many historic speed limits on older roads that may not be appropriate now, but having seen the resources that were committed to monitoring and checking before we got our 30mph limit, and, more recently, the three year process of monitoring and checking (after a long campaign by residents) to get the very narrow village high street declared a 20mph zone (because of the high density of pedestrian traffic to vehicles, and there being no foot ways), I can well imagine that removing a speed limit could have the same sort of resource impact, and so they may be reluctant to undertake the work needed to prove that it's safe to do so.

11277m
4th Feb 2018, 09:07
And who are the people who decide to put up "Slow" or "Reduce Speed" signs when they have no idea what speed I am going in the first place?

MungoP
4th Feb 2018, 09:45
Krystal n chips

Always fun to know you're still out there getting it all wrong.. you provide endless entertainment.
Fact: I'm now in my 54th year of driving on four continents having passed my test (1st time) in June 1964.. (My motorcycle test was passed a ear earlier).
I've NEVER been involved in a moving accident, though in Munich 1976 while stationary at a red light (for at least a full minute) a Turkish driver slammed his BMW into the rear of my car.. and was promptly fined 400 marks by the police, much more competent than our own force who don't give a monkeys when people cause accidents by driving without due care and attention as evidenced in 1998 while stopped at a pedestrian crossing in Suffolk a very stupid woman driving a 'people' mover crashed into the rear of my Audi causing seven thousand pounds worth of damage and had I not been there she quite likely would have mowed down the two ladies with a toddler in a push chair that were immediately in front of me on the pedestrian crossing. Her excuse was she was attending to her sprog in the back.. her next comment was "It's only the second accident I've had" she was 22 years old, how many was she aiming for ? She probably never exceeds the speed limit and so would consider herself a good driver. Yes I have had multiple speeding tickets over my 54 yrs of driving but not having had an accident is evidence that I'm very conscious of what's going on around me, am a pretty good judge of what speeds are safe under the prevailing conditions and have a 6th sense of which drivers to stay well clear of.

Krystal n chips
4th Feb 2018, 10:01
Always fun to know you're still out there getting it all wrong.. you provide endless entertainment.
Fact: I'm now in my 54th year of driving on four continents having passed my test (1st time) in June 1964.. (My motorcycle test was passed a ear earlier).
I've NEVER been involved in a moving accident, though in Munich 1976 while stationary at a red light (for at least a full minute) a Turkish driver slammed his BMW into the rear of my car.. and was promptly fined 400 marks by the police, much more competent than our own force who don't give a monkeys when people cause accidents by driving without due care and attention as evidenced in 1998 while stopped at a pedestrian crossing in Suffolk a very stupid woman driving a 'people' mover crashed into the rear of my Audi causing seven thousand pounds worth of damage and had I not been there she quite likely would have mowed down the two ladies with a toddler in a push chair that were immediately in front of me on the pedestrian crossing. Her excuse was she was attending to her sprog in the back.. her next comment was "It's only the second accident I've had" she was 22 years old, how many was she aiming for ? She probably never exceeds the speed limit and so would consider herself a good driver. Yes I have had multiple speeding tickets over my 54 yrs of driving but not having had an accident is evidence that I'm very conscious of what's going on around me, am a pretty good judge of what speeds are safe under the prevailing conditions and have a 6th sense of which drivers to stay well clear of.

Your modesty is always a delight to read.....although you forgot about justifying your disdain ( as you kindly stated on here ) as to the RTA.

KnC...first time pass, no points ( ever ) including commercial driving and one tiny accident one slightly less tiny, basically cosmetic damage when a lady drove into the back of me at minimal speed one day and when I was hit side on in Germany.

Edited to say we agree on one point. German Traffic Law because one day I was driving on Bruggen, I had the priority road and a Belgian A.F. person drove into the side of me. Unfortunately, for him, he had just ignored a "Stop" sign and also used a route marked "Anlieger Frei ! "...thus for those who knew Bruggen by the Airmens Mess crossroads. It got a bit farcical after that, with the arrival of a senile W.O who was adamant I would face disciplinary action, that the Belgian was blameless, until an RAF plod forcibly pointed out the law to him. For longeron, the car belonged to a Mr C.D. and my passenger was a Scottish gentleman a Mr G.F whose, ahem, diplomacy came to the fore when addressing the Belgian. I'm sure you know both of these people. Mr C.D was away having a Med.holiday at Deci so he let me use his car if I did the oil change for him.

Maybe I qualify as one of those drivers to stay well clear of....although there again, maybe my own sixth sense helps me avoid those with a cavalier attitude to speed and disregard for the law.

ShotOne
4th Feb 2018, 10:07
It’s about priorities, nothing to do with disregard for the law. Speed limits are already enforced to a degree that was utterly unthinkable at the time they were set. Roads are safer than they’ve ever been. Other forms of crime are rampant yet all we’re seeing is yet more soft-target motorist bashing.

Sallyann1234
4th Feb 2018, 10:15
Roads are safer than they’ve ever been.
Er, no. Vehicles are safer than they have ever been. The roads are busier than ever, which makes it more dangerous for the pedestrians and cyclists that share them.

I use all three modes of transport, and I know I'm safest behind the wheel.

747 jock
4th Feb 2018, 10:35
Er, no. Vehicles are safer than they have ever been. The roads are busier than ever, which makes it more dangerous for the pedestrians and cyclists that share them.

I use all three modes of transport, and I know I'm safest behind the wheel.

The official accident and fatality figures for pedestrians and cyclists would disagree with you.
Between 2000 and 2013 (the last year I could find figures for), there was pretty much a year on year drop for accidents and fatalities involving pedestrians and cyclists.
https://i.imgur.com/sn77Nyj.jpg

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359012/indicator-table.xls

Fareastdriver
4th Feb 2018, 11:25
Judging by those figures you won't catch me on a Kawasaki any more.

ShyTorque
4th Feb 2018, 12:10
Judging by those figures you won't catch me on a Kawasaki any more.

Why not...exactly how fast do you ride it? :E

MungoP
4th Feb 2018, 12:15
Krystal n chips
one tiny accident one slightly less tiny, basically cosmetic damage when a lady drove into the back of me at minimal speed one day and when I was hit side on in Germany.
sounds to me like you've had several accidents and if you'd been focused on what was approaching from that junction you might have avoided being side-swiped.. maybe you were intent on your speedometer ?
I prefer my accident free record to your lack of points.. after all, it's about safety not legalities.

Sallyann1234
4th Feb 2018, 12:46
The official accident and fatality figures for pedestrians and cyclists would disagree with you.
Between 2000 and 2013 (the last year I could find figures for), there was pretty much a year on year drop for accidents and fatalities involving pedestrians and cyclists.
https://i.imgur.com/sn77Nyj.jpg

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/359012/indicator-table.xls
Well, as they say you can prove anything with statistics.

Over that period, deaths of car occupants have reduced by 53%. Deaths of cyclists have reduced by only 14%. I think that shows the trend pretty clearly.

MungoP
4th Feb 2018, 13:03
Maybe cyclists are slow learners ? Driving along Chiswick Hight St a few weeks ago, 07:00, dirty weather, dark morning, I noticed a cyclist ahead, wearing reflective belt, good lights front and rear.. sensible chap and then as I approached to my horror I saw that there was another cyclist behind him and another in front.. Both wearing very dark clothing and no lights on their bikes. Invisible until I was just a few meters away. If these idiots consider their lives are not worth a few pounds spent on proper clothing and lights why should I care ?

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Feb 2018, 13:16
Round here we have some fast long distance shared use paths (alongside the busway). The problem on the dark stretches isn't so much unlit cyclists - there essentially aren't any - but stealth pedestrians.

As one cycles along at cruising speed (maybe 14-16mph for me, faster for some, slower for others) one is perfectly happy to avoid pedestrians as necessary, but this isn't helped when they wear non-reflective black from hoodie to shoe and don't carry any lights. Even worse when they have a similarly stealth black dog running out sideways from them at random.

OK so you can increase your chances of seeing these people by pointing your headlamp straight ahead rather than down at the road ... but of course then you get sworn at by cyclists coming the other way for blinding them.

Not all pedestrians are like this of course. Some wear non-black clothing, or have reflective patches on their backpacks, or carry lights. One of the most effective approaches to being seen was that taken by a jogger who was wearing hi-ris bicycle clips.

747 jock
4th Feb 2018, 13:28
Well, as they say you can prove anything with statistics.

Over that period, deaths of car occupants have reduced by 53%. Deaths of cyclists have reduced by only 14%. I think that shows the trend pretty clearly.
Why?
According to Britishcycling.org.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20150129-about-bc-news-100-000-increase-in-regular-cyclists-since-October-2012---cycling-participation-targets-on-track-says-British-Cycling-0
the number of cyclists using the roads has increased dramatically over the past few years (and I think that this is something that most car drivers will agree is true) so more cyclists should mean more accidents & fatalities yet the figures show a drop instead of a rise.

Sallyann1234
4th Feb 2018, 13:42
Why?
According to Britishcycling.org.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20150129-about-bc-news-100-000-increase-in-regular-cyclists-since-October-2012---cycling-participation-targets-on-track-says-British-Cycling-0
the number of cyclists using the roads has increased dramatically over the past few years (and I think that this is something that most car drivers will agree is true) so more cyclists should mean more accidents & fatalities yet the figures show a drop instead of a rise.

The numbers of vehicles have increased considerably too. Cars alone up by 600,000 in one year.

Cars on England's roads increase by almost 600,000 in a year - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35312562)

pulse1
4th Feb 2018, 13:45
Coming back to the OP, I see that the Sunday Times set up a speed trap outside the Police Headquarters where Chief Constable Bangham is based. ( what an appropriate name for a policeman).

In one hour 117 cars were docked as over 30 mph, with about 25% in the band 31 - 35 mph. 14 cars were over 40 mph with one BMW clocked at 51 mph.

The main point of the exercise seemed to be that the said Constable should concentrate on his own patch before trying to regulate the whole country.

He has subsequently played down his comments, saying that he wanted "drivers to understand that the limit is there for a reason. They should not assume that there is a free pass at any level".

ShotOne
4th Feb 2018, 13:49
However you hair-split them for individual road-user categories, those figures fully back up my point on safer roads. But still, another day, another crack-down...

VP959
4th Feb 2018, 13:54
Coming back to the OP, I see that the Sunday Times set up a speed trap outside the Police Headquarters where Chief Constable Bangham is based. ( what an appropriate name for a policeman).

In one hour 117 cars were docked as over 30 mph, with about 25% in the band 31 - 35 mph. 14 cars were over 40 mph with one BMW clocked at 51 mph.

The main point of the exercise seemed to be that the said Constable should concentrate on his own patch before trying to regulate the whole country.

He has subsequently played down his comments, saying that he wanted "drivers to understand that the limit is there for a reason. They should not assume that there is a free pass at any level".


Those speeds are not at all untypical for a 30mph limit. Our village still has concerns about people driving too fast in the areas of the village where the lanes are narrow (often single track with passing places) and the speed limit is still 30mph. As these lanes have a lot of pedestrians on as well as cars it can get seriously scary at times.

After lots of pressure being applied the Parish Council did manage to get the use of a radar gun and set up a community speed watch team. It's a bit of a palaver getting people trained and equipped, but the results so far show that cars exceeding 40mph in the 30mph zone are very common, and the highest speed recorded last time I spoke to one of the team was 62mph, which is frankly ludicrous in a narrow lane where you can't see what's around the next bend.

Krystal n chips
4th Feb 2018, 14:45
sounds to me like you've had several accidents and if you'd been focused on what was approaching from that junction you might have avoided being side-swiped.. maybe you were intent on your speedometer ?
I prefer my accident free record to your lack of points.. after all, it's about safety not legalities.

No, just those mentioned. Speed was minimal and if you are aware of the priority road system in Germany, then you would be aware people drive accordingly. Plus, this was a busy crossroad junction so speed was always less than 5mph.

So what were those two little crunches you had then, if they weren't..... accidents ?..have you got another term for them ?....and why have legalities got no relevance ?....after all, if you are speeding, you are breaking the legalities are you not as those speeds are determined as being the maximum safe speed thus exceeding them because you feel they don't apply to you renders you unsafe.

We await your equally surreal explanation as to your disdain for the RTA however.

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Feb 2018, 14:53
So what were those two little crunches you had then, if they weren't..... accidents ?
I have been a passenger in a car which was hit by another driver in an incident that was not an "accident", as the other driver drove into us deliberately.

Police eventually told us "unable to trace" - joyriders in stolen car perhaps?

MungoP
4th Feb 2018, 15:31
Krystal n chips
So what were those two little crunches you had then, if they weren't..... accidents ?.

I think that many of us on this site wonder what colour the sky is in your world K&C..

To be sitting at a red traffic light as I was in Munich for a full minute and then slammed into by some ars* not paying attention to his driving ..and then sitting at a pedestrian crossing many years later long enough for a lady and her mother both pushing a toddler in a push-chair (no doubt another full minute) before being hit from the rear by some total incompetent not paying attention to her priority.. (driving)..is hardly a condemnation on my driving.
On the other hand someone like yourself seems to be under the impression that provided you stay 'within the letter of the law' you are entirely in the right, no matter how many so called 'accidents' in which you are involved. Very few collisions are truly 'accidents' .. A deer breaking from a hedgerow 30 meters ahead of you is an accident.. passing a green light without checking what's coming from both sides is stupidity.

Krystal n chips
4th Feb 2018, 15:59
I think that many of us on this site wonder what colour the sky is in your world K&C..

To be sitting at a red traffic light as I was in Munich for a full minute and then slammed into by some ars* not paying attention to his driving ..and then sitting at a pedestrian crossing many years later long enough for a lady and her mother both pushing a toddler in a push-chair (no doubt another full minute) before being hit from the rear by some total incompetent not paying attention to her priority.. (driving)..is hardly a condemnation on my driving.
On the other hand someone like yourself seems to be under the impression that provided you stay 'within the letter of the law' you are entirely in the right, no matter how many so called 'accidents' in which you are involved. Very few collisions are truly 'accidents' .. A deer breaking from a hedgerow 30 meters ahead of you is an accident.. passing a green light without checking what's coming from both sides is stupidity.

It's generally blue, when their are no clouds around, or black at night when the sun goes down.

And, funnily enough, I do have this strange idea, that, staying within the letter of the law when driving isn't going to render me liable to prosecution.

True, I was stationary at a roundabout.....I'm one of those inconvenient drivers who gives way to traffic from the right you understand, when the lady drove into me at such a low speed the damage was cosmetic, just a crack in the rear bumper, and, as I said, when driving in Germany, I was again barely moving and driving in accordance with the German RTA....the Belgian simply ignored both a Stop sign, white lines and the little matter of driving through an Anlieger Frei ! " route.

In contrast to your boot on the throttle controlling, well far from it obviously, your speed and your disdain for mere legalities at the same time.

MungoP
4th Feb 2018, 16:35
K&C..

Fact remains.. me : Moving accidents '0'
You : " " '3'
So.. who is most legal driver ? You
" .. who is the safest driver ? Me

Blues&twos
4th Feb 2018, 17:01
"So far" springs to mind.

Krystal n chips
4th Feb 2018, 17:16
K&C..

Fact remains.. me : Moving accidents '0'
You : " " '3'
So.. who is most legal driver ? You
" .. who is the safest driver ? Me

Ah, maths aren't your strong point are they, this may explain the confusion as to speed limits of course....

Accidents ( moi ) 2

1 stationary....as in stopped, not moving or mobile at the time.

1 moving at less than 5mph as I recall....those damned pedestrians did insist on crossing the road outside the mess....jolly inconsiderate really.

simmple
4th Feb 2018, 17:59
If they want zero tolerance then I have no problem if the limits were realistic
Motorways at least 90mph. 45 mph elsewhere.
Another radical safety idea, use the roads for traffic and the pavements for pedestrians and ban cyclists.

VP959
4th Feb 2018, 18:08
If they want zero tolerance then I have no problem if the limits were realistic
Motorways at least 90mph. 45 mph elsewhere.
Another radical safety idea, use the roads for traffic and the pavements for pedestrians and ban cyclists.

What about the thousands of miles of rural lanes that have no pavements, may well be barely wide enough for a single vehicle in places, are used by cars, vans, small lorries, horses, cyclists and pedestrians?

The high street in our village is a single track with passing places lane. The lane outside our house is barely wide enough for a single car, and too narrow for lorries. Pedestrians and those riding horses outnumber cars on most days.

We're far from unique. Many of the villages in our area are like this. Some have even narrower lanes. The idea of driving at 45 mph on one of these lanes is ludicrous, and even before we had the 20mph limit most sensible drivers drove at 20mph or less, it was just a few nutters that caused mayhem by driving at 30mph or more, forcing other road users into the hedges.

Carbon Bootprint
4th Feb 2018, 18:30
It sounds like your little island needs to step up its road improvement program. Yes, it can be disruptive, but so is an ever increasing amount of traffic on a ("quaint") country roadway system.

MungoP
4th Feb 2018, 18:32
Blues&twos

"So far" springs to mind.

Absolutely ! And it's that thinking that's kept me safe on the road for 54 years and at sea and in the air for the past 50+ years. It's a state of mind... the next road trip to the shops, the next take-off or the next sailing trip.. all require total focus.

Blues&twos
4th Feb 2018, 19:33
True, Mungo, but unfortunately all the focus in the world doesn't stop someone rear-ending your car when you're stationary, or a deer leaping out of a hedge immediately in front of you (both of which have happened to me). Some of that is down to luck. Annoyingly, I was driving at 43mph in the dark on an unlit rural lane when the deer landed on my car...if I had been going more quickly - the limit was 60mph - I'd have been past him before he came into the road. Doh.

Chronus
4th Feb 2018, 19:38
With all electric and soon thereafter driverless cars, just around the corner, wont be long before we will all be reminiscing about the good old days, when there were speed limits, speeding fines, bumps on the road, round abouts, bus lanes and traffic lights. Doesn`t it make you wonder what all the traffic cops will be doing then.

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Feb 2018, 19:53
or a deer leaping out of a hedge immediately in front of you
Deer nothing. Someone turned up at a meeting at our office in a village once as white as a sheet - a horse had leapt over a hedge in front of him and kicked his windscreen in. (Or something - it was in the 1980s, I forget the details, other than it was a horse.)

hiflymk3
4th Feb 2018, 20:57
With all electric and soon thereafter driverless cars, just around the corner, wont be long before we will all be reminiscing about the good old days, when there were speed limits, speeding fines, bumps on the road, round abouts, bus lanes and traffic lights. Doesn`t it make you wonder what all the traffic cops will be doing then.

There's driverless cars even now. They're parked outside, all the way down our road. ;)

squawking 7700
4th Feb 2018, 20:58
Should I email Derbyshire's CC? - last Tuesday 30th Jan at 12:46/12:47 I observed a marked police BMW on the A52 out of Derby exceeding the temporary 40mph limit by, in my estimation 3-4mph.

Upon seeing a national speed limit sign on an adjacent slip road, the police car accelerated to, I estimate at least 60mph, at which point the driver realised his mistake and that the national speed limit signs on the slop road weren't applicable to the main carriageway.
As the national speed limit signs on the main carriageway became visible he maintained 70mph

If it had been you or I, we'd be looking at 3 points and a fine - one rule for us, another for the police, whether it's speeding for no reason, corruption, witholding evidence etc.

longer ron
4th Feb 2018, 21:08
@longeron....but not as good looking, he says modestly, as this former BGA inspector...sorry to disappoint you. ;) :E

Anyway, why were you weighing a Blanik...did it put on weight over Christmas and its winter hibernation ?. :p

Ere oi never said it was a Blanket.
An L13 Blanket weighed in at a featherlight 644 ish Lbs .

OTO - Our T53 as built by a subsidiary of John Brown shipbuilders - with a wing rib every 9 inches - she weighed in at (at least) 780Lbs.As an american friend once said ''those wings are built''.
My old syndicate partner seriously suggested removing half the wing ribs to improve the climb rate :),I agreed it was a good idea but figured that the BGA might not like the idea.
We used to leave her rigged from march to sept/oct in deference to our backs/shoulders and legs LOL.
She was actually a very nice glider to fly,with a man sized stick and huge canopy but obviously not a good 'scratcher',the airbrakes were pretty [email protected] probably because they were waaay back on the wing chord.

Sallyann1234
4th Feb 2018, 22:40
With all electric and soon thereafter driverless cars, just around the corner, wont be long before we will all be reminiscing about the good old days, when there were speed limits, speeding fines, bumps on the road, round abouts, bus lanes and traffic lights. Doesn`t it make you wonder what all the traffic cops will be doing then.
It won't be much fun for those 'expert' drivers who currently don't need to observe speed limits - they will be restricted anyway. :ugh:

MG23
5th Feb 2018, 03:26
It won't be much fun for those 'expert' drivers who currently don't need to observe speed limits

It's been proven time and again that the safest drivers are around the 85th percentile by speed. British speed limits literally criminalise the safest drivers on the roads.

But, hey, that's just science and stuff. Clearly feelz are far more important to the British government.

Krystal n chips
5th Feb 2018, 05:46
Should I email Derbyshire's CC? - last Tuesday 30th Jan at 12:46/12:47 I observed a marked police BMW on the A52 out of Derby exceeding the temporary 40mph limit by, in my estimation 3-4mph.

Upon seeing a national speed limit sign on an adjacent slip road, the police car accelerated to, I estimate at least 60mph, at which point the driver realised his mistake and that the national speed limit signs on the slop road weren't applicable to the main carriageway.
As the national speed limit signs on the main carriageway became visible he maintained 70mph

If it had been you or I, we'd be looking at 3 points and a fine - one rule for us, another for the police, whether it's speeding for no reason, corruption, witholding evidence etc.

Well an email would be worthwhile as sightings of Derbyshire's finest are comparatively rare.....as for the 3-4mph in the roadworks section, that's remarkably slow because even between joining at Pride Park and leaving at Borrowash ( same going the other way ) just about everybody is doing well over the 40 limit....probably because there are no camera's around.

However, here's one aggrieved driver for whom the concept of a Smart motorway seems a shade complex. She isn't alone it seems, but, those LARGE RED signs on the overhead gantries can be confusing and easy to miss when you are blatting along with your mind elsewhere and ignoring speed limits anyway.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/m1-traffic-smart-cameras-fines-1124613?utm_source=google_news&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=google_news&utm_content=sitemap

@longeron......one apologises for the confusion....one was unaware you are involved in the vintage world.....:D:E never seen one by the way, but it sounds like the wings were designed by a Bucc designer.

Tech Guy
5th Feb 2018, 07:20
Would it be cynical of me to suggest the Police officer in question is "financially motivated", as he appears to be the director of a company that provides speed awareness courses.

The Road Safety Trust (https://www.companysearchesmadesimple.com/company/uk/08837451/the-road-safety-trust/#people)

Pontius Navigator
5th Feb 2018, 07:41
It sounds like your little island needs to step up its road improvement program. Yes, it can be disruptive, but so is an ever increasing amount of traffic on a ("quaint") country roadway system.

In an ideal world, in Texas?, we would straighten all roads, level hills, demolish all the quaint little villages, gut town centers and create covered malls and car parks (it rains here).

To quote my solicitor, we are where we are.

Pontius Navigator
5th Feb 2018, 07:56
Where we screwed up 50 years ago was chopping all the rural and many inter-town railways. Closing them down might have made economic sense at the time, but the real madness was disposing of the track ways.

Bridges were demolished probably on maintenance cost grounds, stations sold, in town tracks converted and least damaging , rural trails created. Where track ways remained, the recent revival of tourist trains has led to sudden building on the remaining land.

For instance good progress was being made on the track from Louth to Grimsby. Grimsby sealed the end with a much needed road. Houses suddenly got built in the next best location.

We have a housing shortage so demolition is a hot potato. We also have a huge population of crested newts!

Slower speeds would help as 70 into 30, especially in the south of England means traffic jams as the cars arrive faster than they can park

simmple
5th Feb 2018, 10:26
We're far from unique. Many of the villages in our area are like this. Some have even narrower lanes. The idea of driving at 45 mph on one of these lanes is ludicrous, and even before we had the 20mph limit most sensible drivers drove at 20mph or less, it was just a few nutters that caused mayhem by driving at 30mph or more, forcing other road users into the hedges

If the limit was 45 past your house that doesn’t mean it’s a target, you could drive slower!
The speed limits should be increased for revenue collection purposes especially if they want to go zero tolerance.

Pontius Navigator
5th Feb 2018, 10:39
Many years ago my aunt was stopped by Mersey Tunnel police. At the time you were required to stay in lane, no overtaking, and maintain lane speed with the slow lane max 20 and the fast 7-30 IIRC. There were notices to that effect painted on the tunnel walls.

My aunt changed lanes and speeds as she judged.

When stopped she said "young man, I was far too busy paying attention to the road to look at the walls"

She got away with it.

RAT 5
5th Feb 2018, 15:08
When stopped she said "young man, I was far too busy paying attention to the road to look at the walls"

Which is safer; head out doing 35mph or head in checking on 30mph? Which allows more attention to be paid 100-200yds ahead, where it should be, than only the the bumper in front of you?
The problem with speed cameras and radar guns is that you could be pinged for a split second infringement while you were paying attention far ahead. It was not premeditated nor intended; it was just the weight of our foot for a split second. Does the penalty match the crime? No m'lud. For every innocent they catch infringing over a 50m stretch there will be 1000's about the land ripping it up for miles. Who said life was fair.
There are occasions where it is necessary to accelerate to create space for safety; a transient breaking of the law to avoid a worse calamity. A bit like using airmanship to deviate from SOP's for safety reasons: that's what we do quite often. It seems that drivers do not have this discretion because the camera takes a snap shot. Trajectory control removes this injustice, but that is not available nationwide. Without video photographic evidence it would be difficult to prove. That is why a zero tolerance policy will see too many innocents persecuted. That would not be allowed to happen in other legal areas. Innocence needs protecting is a philosophy.
I had a friend who was riding his motorbike of the motorway. An unmarked car kept
tail-gating him uncomfortably and in his opinion unsafely. He kept accelerating away to create a safe distance. the car closed up each time. In the end he was so irritated by it he pinged off for a longer distance. You guessed it. He was stopped by the then speeding chase car and done for speeding. His defence was rejected. How daft is that.
Being stung for +5mph by a hidden camera on an empty road and then watching muppets slaloming down 3 lanes of the motorway, with total disregard, and getting away with it, is enough to create road rage at the system. The UK penalty system, compared to the continent, is way OTT. 4 minor offences and you could be penalised out of all proportion in losing your licence and then having stacked insurance; and not caused anybody any harm. Compare that penalty to what is handed out in the courts for actual criminal offences that caused actual harm. Easy prey, we know, but where is the resistance? The penalising anti-driver culture has been allowed to creep up & up. Apathy wins.
Back on my e-bicycle now and let the rest of you sort it out.

VP959
5th Feb 2018, 15:27
A lot of cars have a HUD now, anyway, so you can be "eyes out" and still have your speed projected on to the windscreen in your field of view.

It really isn't hard to learn to drive at the speed limit without having to have your eyes glued to the speedometer, anyway, is it?

I can't help but feel that those that are looking for any excuse to get away with driving over the speed limit are clutching at straws with arguments like this.

Pontius Navigator
5th Feb 2018, 16:27
VP, define 'lot'.

My BiL changes his car every year or so, currently a Merc SUV, no HUD. His wife drives an 07, I drive an 05, no HUD.

What I do hazvey, which could be better, is a SatNav just off my direct sight line. It give a regular audible warning if I exceed the speed limit. There is a lag where changes are recent but overall it is a good attention getter. You can ignore a visual alert on a HUD but the audible one is far more effective.

Gertrude the Wombat
5th Feb 2018, 17:59
When stopped she said "young man, I was far too busy paying attention to the road to look at the walls"
I got stopped by the police once (for something I reckoned I hadn't done, but that's not the point).

"Didn't you see us?" they asked.

"No," I said, "because you weren't in a position to be a hazard, and I was looking at the road, and I'm not one of those bad drivers who feels they need to be constantly searching for police cars".

Whatever it was (I don't remember now), they gave me an extremely mild bollocking and sent me on my way.

VP959
5th Feb 2018, 18:06
VP, define 'lot'.

My BiL changes his car every year or so, currently a Merc SUV, no HUD. His wife drives an 07, I drive an 05, no HUD.

What I do hazvey, which could be better, is a SatNav just off my direct sight line. It give a regular audible warning if I exceed the speed limit. There is a lag where changes are recent but overall it is a good attention getter. You can ignore a visual alert on a HUD but the audible one is far more effective.

All the cars I've owned since 2005 have had one. The first was a bit clunky, and only displayed speed, the current one displays speed, economy driving guff plus very useful sat nav turn indications. Even my wife's little car has one, pretty much the same as mine but without the sat nav indications. I just assumed they were pretty common on cars made over the past ten years or so.

Blues&twos
5th Feb 2018, 18:31
I have never been in a car with a HUD. Maybe I'm in the wrong price bracket! 😀

Chronus
5th Feb 2018, 18:50
VP, define 'lot'.

My BiL changes his car every year or so, currently a Merc SUV, no HUD. His wife drives an 07, I drive an 05, no HUD.

What I do hazvey, which could be better, is a SatNav just off my direct sight line. It give a regular audible warning if I exceed the speed limit. There is a lag where changes are recent but overall it is a good attention getter. You can ignore a visual alert on a HUD but the audible one is far more effective.

Am with you all the way on audible warning systems. I`ve got Mrs C who can without any effort can override my selective hearing control. Cannot be better equipment for road safety than that.

G-CPTN
5th Feb 2018, 18:55
When I last changed my car I wanted 'cruise control'.
One manufacturer listed it but it was part of a package with other extras and none of the UK stock had it fitted. Ordering a car with it fitted meant a long wait - and no discounts.
My current car came with CC as standard (together with satnav - which I wasn't fussed about), however the CC isn't speed limiting (a downhill gradient will see it exceeding the set speed).
The CC controls are on the steering wheel so setting and adjusting are easy.
Using the accelerator over-rides the CC and touching the brakes cancels it.

The next-generation model includes a speed limiter (which can be over-ridden with 'kick-down').

Pontius Navigator
5th Feb 2018, 19:02
Mr C, how do we manage without a SatNag when driving solo?

Pontius Navigator
5th Feb 2018, 19:10
G-CPTN, I have had CC for 40 years ever since a chap came in to the office, said my twin works for SAAB can get you anything you want at least 60% off. Worked as you described.

ShyTorque
5th Feb 2018, 19:28
However, here's one aggrieved driver for whom the concept of a Smart motorway seems a shade complex. She isn't alone it seems, but, those LARGE RED signs on the overhead gantries can be confusing and easy to miss when you are blatting along with your mind elsewhere and ignoring speed limits anyway.

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/m1-traffic-smart-cameras-fines-1124613?utm_source=google_news&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=google_news&utm_content=sitemap


I've seen exactly what this woman saw. The same stretch, but southbound. The overhead signs ahead of me changed to 60 mph and the cameras immediately flashed, traffic had no time to slow because the drivers were almost under the gantry when the limit changed. The signs further north routinely change to 60 mph on the stroke of 0700 and go off again at 0900; presumably the cameras go appropriately live, too. I've seen this many times and can almost set my watch by them. This is irrespective of traffic conditions. I'm convinced this is to comply with EU directives on CO2 emissions, rather than road safety.

Chronus
5th Feb 2018, 19:37
Mr C, how do we manage without a SatNag when driving solo?

By abject terror of consequence we remain ever watchful.

Do you remember your first solo.

Pontius Navigator
5th Feb 2018, 20:45
Chronus, I do remember, with fear, a 6 hour round trip, average 60, in a 1300. Went through a one car width gap and avoided the other car. Overtaking a line of slow movers going up a hill I thought it prudent to park in the layby on the other side of the road.

I think calmed down in later life, like a week.

ExSp33db1rd
6th Feb 2018, 03:31
Well, as they say you can prove anything with statistics.

Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.

NZ Police are adamant that "speed kills" but on our roads, reminiscient of U.K. Devon and Cornwall "B" class roads of the 1970's ( and maybe still today?) generally rated at 100 kph ( 62.5mph so hardly excessive ) ) tho' now with increasingly experienced 80 kph (50 mph) stretches, it is slow speed that causes most of the problems, i.e. drivers piddling along at 70 kph (44 mph) with a long tail back of increasingly impatient drivers behind them.

The old adage "It's number 2 that starts the queue, Yah! Boo! to number 2" is still valid, so number 3 , or even 4 or 5 have a go at inappropriate places.

We also have a lot of visitors to whom driving on the "wrong" side of the road is a novel experience. One American wrote angrily to the local Press, suggesting that we change sides to accommodate the number of USA visitors that NZ experiences. He also suggested that we change from 240 volts to 110 volts mains supply, his wife had brought her hairdryer and was distressed that she couldn't use it ! I had my reply published, noting that 300 million Americans don't change sides when I drive in the USA, so why should we, for him ? Get used to it.

We have stretches, usually uphill, where the road widens to 3 lanes, and the uphill direction is give an "overtaking lane" for maybe a couple of Kms. This results in an automatic reaction in the slow drivers to speed up to prevent anyone passing, it's almost as if it is taught by the driving schools. I met one such driver yesterday, he continued to accelerate to match my increasing speed until we were both screaming along level pegging at around 130 kph and eventually I had to drop back as the road once more narrowed to single lane in our direction, whereupon he resumed his 70 kph saunter. It is at times like that that I yearn for a James Bond Alfa, equipped with the two forward facing machine guns.

As a 20 something student pilot, I undertook the Institute of Advanced Motorists more exhaustive driving test, and was advised that overtaking is TED time, Time Exposed to Danger, and to Get Out and Back in the shortest possible time. In NZ this involves momentarily exceeding the 100 kph limit if passing anything going only a little slower than the limit, and it is at that point that one passes the strategically parked Police Car on a revenue collecting exercise tucked around the corner after an overtaking lane, but at least I wasn't subjected to that yesterday.

Shock ! Horror ! A short stretch of one of our Motorways, I use the term loosely, they don't even begin to compare to the UK, USA or German concept of Motorway, Freeway, or Autobahn but are at least usually 3 (6 ?) lane roads with few bends or obstructions, is being trialled at 110kph (69 mph) at the moment, guess what will happen after the first fatal accident ? Speed Kills ? Yeah! Right !

Krystal n chips
6th Feb 2018, 06:16
I've seen exactly what this woman saw. The same stretch, but southbound. The overhead signs ahead of me changed to 60 mph and the cameras immediately flashed, traffic had no time to slow because the drivers were almost under the gantry when the limit changed. The signs further north routinely change to 60 mph on the stroke of 0700 and go off again at 0900; presumably the cameras go appropriately live, too. I've seen this many times and can almost set my watch by them. This is irrespective of traffic conditions. I'm convinced this is to comply with EU directives on CO2 emissions, rather than road safety.

I don't dispute for one minute your personal experience here.

I've done enough Smart motorway driving to be aware the signs do just illuminate without warning as they are controlled by technology and I've certainly seen camera flashes on the opposite carriageway ( this on the M6 ) when everybody else has been observing the limits, apart from those who clearly decided otherwise and were happily screaming along well above the limit....the clue here being why was everybody else driving at the mandated speed being ignored.

However, if, as you say and the article says, the cameras are activated simultaneously with the gantry signs change, and with no allowance being made for vehicles transiting under at unrestricted speed, then certainly this needs closer scrutiny as to why there is no, short term, delay in camera activation.

DaveReidUK
6th Feb 2018, 06:35
However, if, as you say and the article says, the cameras are activated simultaneously with the gantry signs change, and with no allowance being made for vehicles transiting under at unrestricted speed, then certainly this needs closer scrutiny as to why there is no, short term, delay in camera activation.

According to Highways England:

"I can confirm that following a change in the speed displayed by signal(s) there is a 60 second ‘grace period’ before HADECS3 cameras start enforcement, giving time for drivers to adapt to the new mandatory speed limit. This is to prevent cars from braking sharply."

I would infer from the use of the word "enforcement" that the cameras probably start working instantaneously, but that drivers aren't prosecuted until the newly reduced speed limit has been in force for 60 seconds.

Pontius Navigator
6th Feb 2018, 07:43
DR, and there will always be those that Know and try and sneak in within that minute. Always the danger that those that don't jam the brakes on.!

Pontius Navigator
6th Feb 2018, 07:48
ExSpd berg, we thought it was like the 50s when we were there in the 70s albeit with diagonal only seat belts in the MGAs. 5 and 15 amp electrics too. Has that changed?

KelvinD
6th Feb 2018, 07:49
A couple of anecdotes from my days in the Western Cape:
Capetown cops used to hide in bushes on the side of a road, armed with a stop watch. The stop watch wold be started as you passed and when you passed another hidden cop, his stop watch would now be started. A motorcycle cop would collect both stop watches in a specially made wooden box, take them to the motorist and stop both watches simultaneously in front of the motorist. Time between cops would then be derived by arithmetic and a ticket issued or not. One day, a motorist was stopped and when the motorcyclist arrived with the watches, he said "Let me see them". He was handed the box by the cop, whereupon he immediately reset both watches to zero.
So, they started rolling out the Gatsometer. This was a pair of sealed rubber tubes with a micro switch at either end and secured to the road surface 1m apart. You front wheels would start a digital clock and then stop the clock upon hitting the 2nd tube. You were then taken to the police car, shown the time in milliseconds and a large paper ready reckoner was consulted to convert the time to speed. (I know, they got me a couple of days before I was due to leave S. Africa!). One bloke I knew was caught by this device and was a bit annoyed. Having been issued with his ticket, he drove off, around the block and headed for the speed trap again. This time he slammed his brakes on and ripped the 2 tubes off the road. The cops were a bit cross but my mate said "Sorry, I saw the tubes and panicked". And got away with it.
Finally, the cops eventually got modern and equipped with radar. (I believe it was a scientist from Univ of Stellenbosch who had done some pioneering work on this). One day, as we were arriving for work at the Navy's transmitter site, there was a car parked next to the site entrance, clicking away at passing motorists. None of us going into work were caught as we were slowing down to turn in. After an hour or so, our boss (Imagegear: it was Rob Beckwith), went to the gate and asked the cop if he knew what was on the site. We had something like 17 transmitters poking out 30KW, a further 30 running 10KW plus a couple of 90KHz transmitters at 40 & 50 KW. The cop then realised where his radar readings were going wrong and cleared off. Never to be seen on that road again!

ShyTorque
6th Feb 2018, 14:00
Stopwatches were used in UK, in years long gone by. I met an old chap with a Vincent 1000cc motorbike who told me that one of his gang's favourite tricks in the local "hotspot" was to roar past the first policeman, brake hard to a halt, have a cigarette, then roar off again past the second policeman. The police knew they were breaking the speed limits by a considerable margin, but could do nothing about it.

ethicalconundrum
6th Feb 2018, 15:20
I knew it was just for revenue, but tried to fight it anyway.

Years past, I was driving on a urban road in Sydney AU. There was a school zone and it was a Monday. I saw the flash as I passed the posted sign, and wondered about that. Month later, back in the US a summons arrives, telling me to pay $190 AU, with a picture of my rental, and the speed trip reading across the bottom, with the law, code, and detail I was accused of violating. It was; "speeding in a school zone during school hours". Which in the grander scheme of things, was appropriate.

However, that Monday just happened to be a school holiday, and there were no children present, no school in class, and the speed I was going was appropriate for the traffic conditions and under the posted normal speed on the regular signage. Which I knew was a school holiday.

So, I hired a local atty for a few hundred, asked the court if I could enter a defense declaration without appearing in person. They said ok. I wrote out my defense, the atty presented it and argued my case. In summary, it devolved to: The law on reduced speed in a school zone is for the protection of children, and parents in a high pedestrian situation, which warrants closer scrutiny, and lower speeds. However, during times when there are NO children present, and there is NO school zone, and the school is NOT in session, the regular speed(45Kph?) applies. I pointed out that it was a national school holiday, and there was no reason for the lowered speed to apply.

Nope! court said; 'You broke the law as written! You saw the sign, you broke the limit, and you were caught. Pay up!' I opted to decline to pay. So, I am a scofflaw in Sydney, should I ever return, subject to arrest for going 43 in a 30Kph school zone, when the school was deserted. I'm sure some here will scream - NO EXCUSE! pfft

Fareastdriver
6th Feb 2018, 15:29
I was done for going into a bus lane on Christmas Day when there were no buses running.

It didn't matter. The sign said Buses Only Between 16.30 and 18.30 Monday to Saturday.

treadigraph
6th Feb 2018, 15:30
Ethical, we once accidentally went through a coin only toll lane on the NJ Turnpike; we had no coins at all. We asked a handy operative what we do: "just drive though" said he, so we did.

Always wondered if my mate - who had rented the car and was driving - is now a fugitive from justice for the sake of 25c!

He has been back to the US since and seems to still be at liberty - hope so, meeting him for a pint tomorrow night...

ethicalconundrum
6th Feb 2018, 16:03
We have the North Texas Toll Authority around where I live. Their methods are draconian. I buy and sell vintage cars as a hobby, so I transact a number of cars per year. I regularly get an invoice from someone who has bought one of my cars and subsequent driven in the toll without a toll transponder. I'm very careful about documenting the date and TIME of the sale of the vehicle, and putting on the bill of sale. When I send in the invoice with the BOS showing that the car was no longer mine - they still don't care. I get dunned with warnings that the registration for that plate will not be renewed! Sounds good to me, I no longer own it. nyuk,nyuk,nyuk.

RAT 5
6th Feb 2018, 16:17
I was done for going into a bus lane on Christmas Day when there were no buses running.
It didn't matter. The sign said Buses Only Between 16.30 and 18.30 Monday to Saturday.

Shame Winston is not PM. A letter to his private off would have sent short shrift to the local muppets.

Krystal n chips
6th Feb 2018, 16:35
I was done for going into a bus lane on Christmas Day when there were no buses running.

It didn't matter. The sign said Buses Only Between 16.30 and 18.30 Monday to Saturday.

Well you are not alone it seems.....although you probably wouldn't be helping a homeless person.

Man fined for helping homeless on Christmas Day - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-42961418)

goudie
6th Feb 2018, 17:48
Back in the 60's the traffic police gained some notoriety for tailgating motorists, trying to force them to speed up, then stopping and charging them. I used to take the Motor Sport magazine at the time and there were endless letters complaining about this practice.
I wonder if it's still done these days?

RAT 5
6th Feb 2018, 17:50
I wonder if it's still done these days?

See my previous post about mate on motorbike in 90's.

I had another mate who was 'tailing' a police car who, without blues or two's, would it up a little, then slowed down, then wound it up a little. My mate kept pace and was nicked. The court though it out, but what were the muppets thinking? What crime busting task did they accomplish. I would suggest their mentality be questioned. Childlike behaviour should not be on display.

Pontius Navigator
6th Feb 2018, 17:52
This Christmas the traffic warden booked the only car he could find badly parked on Christmas Day.

On school zones 24/7/365 here I challenged the Road Safety Partnership. They responded that there could be out of hours clubs, weekend activity etc. AT MIDNIGHT? And the school only displays hazard lights when it is open. Naturally the police don't police it during hours.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Feb 2018, 18:04
Nope! court said; 'You broke the law as written! You saw the sign, you broke the limit, and you were caught. Pay up!' I opted to decline to pay. So, I am a scofflaw in Sydney, should I ever return, subject to arrest for going 43 in a 30Kph school zone, when the school was deserted. I'm sure some here will scream - NO EXCUSE! pfft
I got a parking ticket in Sydney once. I tried to pay it, by writing my UK credit card number on the ticket and posting it back to Sydney from the UK after I got home, but they never charged me. I have, however, visiting Sydney more than once since then with no trouble, so you might be OK.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Feb 2018, 18:07
Back in the 60's the traffic police gained some notoriety for tailgating motorists, trying to force them to speed up
How does that work then? - if somebody tailgates me then obviously I slow down, as the reduced gap is only safe at a lower speed.

zed3
6th Feb 2018, 18:42
Gertrude... experienced that in Belgium a few years ago when living in NL. Just over the border and on 120km... the limit... when a Ford Sierra, unmarked with only one driver on board tried to push me above the limit from behind. I didn't take the hint, so he eventually overtook me but I noticed his shoulder emblems... and dirty look, as he overtook and scooted off, way over the limit.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Feb 2018, 19:01
Gertrude... experienced that in Belgium a few years ago when living in NL. Just over the border and on 120km... the limit... when a Ford Sierra, unmarked with only one driver on board tried to push me above the limit from behind. I didn't take the hint, so he eventually overtook me but I noticed his shoulder emblems... and dirty look, as he overtook and scooted off, way over the limit.
The dirty look was for sticking to the limit so he couldn't book you?

zed3
6th Feb 2018, 20:22
Yup... one of the few times I have stuck to the limit! Always use your mirror and intelligence. :O

FullOppositeRudder
6th Feb 2018, 22:48
A friend of mine - normally one to obey the speed limit fastidiously - spoke once about a very reasonable police officer who chanced to "catch him" in an off guard moment when said friend's concentration on the speedometer lapsed momentarily as he gave full attention to coming down off one of the steepest hills in the district on his significantly capable motor bike. It apparently got away from him just a little ...

The oncoming vehicle was not yet clearly visible, but way off in the haze ahead there appeared a set of very bright red and blue flashing lights. Surely it couldn't be! - on a quiet country road? A glance at the speedometer - yes it was on 125 in the country 100km limit, and yes, as the oncoming vehicle came into focus, it was a cruising police car. No-where to go, nowhere to hide; the only option to stop and face the music :{. "Schiesser!" thought he. "What would he tell the wife?" :eek:

Pull to the side of the road, helmet and gloves off, and wait .... The officer stepped out of his chariot said "G'day, If you can tell me why I've stopped you, I'll let you off!" "I must be dreaming" thought the miscreant. He sheepishly admitted the obvious, and there followed a most reasonable conversation (the officer had a couple of highly capable motor bikes himself) interspersed with previous offense history check (none), license and rego checks and a breathaliser exercise - all clean and good. They talked a while about bikes in general and "the job". My friend thanked the officer for his understanding and consideration, promised to watch it in the future, and they went on their separate ways - the motorcyclist in a considerably more circumspect manner. He knew full well that he had just avoided a fine of somewhere near $1K and the loss of considerable demerit points; not to mention the conversation which might have taken place in the kitchen when he got home.

What a nice understanding bloke to meet in this situation. And to the best of his knowledge, the wife has never found out .... :O

You can be lucky :=

FOR

ExSp33db1rd
7th Feb 2018, 07:19
5 and 15 amp electrics too. Has that changed?

Wot's an Amp ? I guess as most cars are now Jap. imports things have changed.

I recall the story of the QANTAS Captain, who, on approaching Auckland picked up the P.A. and said " Ladies and Gentlemen, we are landing in Auckland in 15 minutes, the weather is fine and you should now put your watches forward 3 hours ... and back 20 years "

spoke once about a very reasonable police officer

Missed the turn off a Singapore motorway and backed up, straight into the arms of a motor cycle cop, whom I had not previously noticed. "What you do ?" "Sorry, missed the turn, need that shop down there" " Go long next exit and come back" " Cannot, now 4.55 pm and shop closes at 5.00 pm, here's my licence, please be quick". On first getting my Singapore licence I had then no personal accommodation address, so gave the airline H.Q. address, which had been accepted. Cop looked at licence " you SIA pilot" "Yes" " You fly 747?" "Yes" "Do you fly your 747 backwards" "No" "Then don't drive your car backwards, fcuk Off".

Won one.

I got a parking ticket in Sydney once.

I got a parking ticket in Hollywood one night, when with some of my crew we had visited Sunset Strip and made a great effort to park legally, we thought, so next day I sought out an LA copshop and objected. The desk officer explained that I could challenge the ticket in Court, but it would take a few weeks to get a hearing. I explained that I lived in London and was returning that night. "Well" he replied, "We're unlikely to prosecute in London England so why don't you tear it up." I considered this, but also considered the prospect of being denied entry next time I flew in, and also the trouble for the car hire co. so paid the fine. I apportioned the cost amongst those of my crew who had supported me in my considered legal parking place, so it didn't cost us very much each, anyway. ( see how democratic I am ? )

Pontius Navigator
7th Feb 2018, 08:19
ExSpbd, 5/15 Amp? Joking surely. Round pins.

ExSp33db1rd
7th Feb 2018, 21:22
Joking surely. Round pins.

Oh, yes, now we have USA style pins, same dimensions but each bent at about 30 degrees, this ensues that we can't put them in USA sockets when travelling, and USA pins won't go into our sockets here.

It's called Progress I believe.

Pontius Navigator
8th Feb 2018, 07:35
Oh, yes, now we have USA style pins, same dimensions but each bent at about 30 degrees, this ensues that we can't put them in USA sockets when travelling, and USA pins won't go into our sockets here.

It's called Progress I believe.

Ah, you have gone Oz then. No problem, travel with a pair of pliers 😈.

eryops
8th Feb 2018, 09:39
I have always been puzzled by the focus on speed when it comes to road safety, It's the force of the impact that does the damage. Ive never been good at hard sums but even I know that force = mass x acceleration.
Being hit by a bus doing 20 mph is going to do you are lot more damage than a small car at 40mph.Don't want to be on the receiving end of either but you get my drift.
Someone clever at the Ministry Of Transport ( I know I know ) could work out a table of the impact force for each new vehicle manufactured and issue speed restrictions accordingly.
It might encourage manufacturers to produce 'low mass' cars that would be as dangerous as a balloon on a stick.

RAT 5
8th Feb 2018, 10:42
Wot's an Amp ?

No it's not. A Watt is Amps/Volts. :rolleyes: :ok:

Allan Lupton
8th Feb 2018, 11:16
Wot's an Amp ?

No it's not. A Watt is Amps/Volts. :rolleyes: :ok:
er, no, I think you'll need amps × volts to get watts

ShyTorque
8th Feb 2018, 13:26
er, no, I think you'll need amps × volts to get watts

Let's give him a bit of flex, before blowing a fuse... ;)

pax britanica
8th Feb 2018, 13:43
Speed does kill but so police and councils with their road layouts and signage.

Within 5 miles of my home is criminally dangerous pedestrian crossing at the top of a motorway slip[ road. At night it looks like a signal controlled junction but its not- so if you do not know the area then you see a green light and think youcan go but you can't because there is an worn out stop line on the road which is invisible in rain or darkness.

Same in the next door town except this also has amaze of pedestrian protection fences blocking the view of drivers at the junction.

In the other direction there is a black diagonal , national speed limit sign , its on a bend, thirty yards past the bend is a light controlled crossing onto a dual carriageway.

This lethal signage is endemic in the UK and a scandal

Thats not to say speeding is Ok it absolutely is not but who is the great danger, someone doing 90 on the M3 between J3 and J2 or 35 or even 30 in Camberley High street full of shoppers and cars parked both sides but thats too hard to deal

treadigraph
8th Feb 2018, 13:44
He's obviously not current...

Pax, know what you mean, cycling around a bit of Croydon I didn't know at all at night several years ago, I was paying more attention to the road surface (which was crap) than I should have had to and suddenly thought "hang on, who has right of way here?" The give way markings and line were almost entirely worn away and very hard to see at night - worse in the wet I imagine - and there are no give way signs - and you are giving way to traffic from your left which is a bit unusual on a one way system. Luckily I was being cautious! Looking at street view the road has been resurfaced now and the markings are in good order.

Lantern10
8th Feb 2018, 20:19
I think the poor fellow is just crying out for his 15 minuets of fame.

RAT 5
9th Feb 2018, 02:14
er, no, I think you'll need amps × volts to get watts

Indeed it is. My spell check is uneducated. Finger trouble.

ExSp33db1rd
9th Feb 2018, 06:52
Ah, you have gone Oz then. No problem, travel with a pair of pliers

Or ... 2 x 6" lengths of wire, each with one bare end and the other end attached to a small crocodile clip, and a box of matches.

Attach the croc. clips to the prongs of your device that can't use the available wall socket, then push the other, bare, ends of each length into the power socket and follow up by pushing a match ( or matches ) into the socket to hold the wire in place.

Place the assembly somewhere that allows you to use your device, i.e. electric shaver maybe, without anything moving, and DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING.

Has worked very well for me in many locations where I have found myself without the correct adaptor, in fact I still have the wires in my travel kit, but the matches are long gone - must get some more if I ever travel again ( and can't find the right adaptor for my destination.)

Blues&twos
9th Feb 2018, 10:04
https://youtu.be/8zt50lz-NVQ

Reminds me of this 1970s UK safety ad

k3k3
9th Feb 2018, 18:43
More like an instructional video for Darwin candidates.

ExSp33db1rd
10th Feb 2018, 00:07
but I said .....

.......without anything moving,

he kicked the cable.

QED

Pontius Navigator
10th Feb 2018, 07:37
Had a worker with a dicky ticker, forbidden from lone working, cutting steel bars with a cutting wheel on which he was not qualified.

No gloves, goggles and wearing moccasin shoes. The power cable ran across the workshop floor. As each piece of metal was cut gravity took over.

He was in his late 60s so must have led a remarkably lucky life.

Loose rivets
10th Feb 2018, 14:48
Many years ago in Frinton, I called the police and said the road junctions on three of the town's tree lined avenues were profoundly unsafe. People speed and cross the junctions confident it's their right of way.

Some years later I stood watching in disbelief at the scene. Gas van hits crossing traffic and lands on its roof. Speed? I can only guess. I don't even know who was in the wrong because the van ended up well away from the impact point.

A paramedic, a sensible middle-aged kind of chap met a lady in a saloon car. You will note this saloon now has no roof. The medic's car was totalled. The lady was airlifted out.

This was all totally due to the fact the crossings have been left for years without proper markings. What there are can not be seen in the rain.

Yes, all due to speed and lack of caution, but if only the police had acted on my quite formal complaint it, and a few smaller incidents, would not have happened. Probably.

Tashengurt
10th Feb 2018, 14:53
Loose rivets,

What were the Police to do? Post an officer there 24/7 to control the traffic?

If the fault was with the road layout or markings your complaint should've gone to the Highways agency or local council.

Gertrude the Wombat
10th Feb 2018, 16:05
What were the Police to do? Post an officer there 24/7 to control the traffic?

If the fault was with the road layout or markings your complaint should've gone to the Highways agency or local council.
Yes indeed. Having witnessed a couple of near misses at one junction where the priority wasn't obvious and the markings had worn away I asked council officers to get the lines repainted, which they did a couple of weeks later. No trouble since.

But really, a complaint to the police should have been passed by the police to the council, so should have been effective.

G-CPTN
10th Feb 2018, 16:22
We have a 'disputed' junction in our village, however, investigations have failed to result in agreement as to what action to take, and the authorities have decided to leave the status quo as it causes confusion rather than danger - with no major collisions recorded.

My suggestion to replace a 'Give Way' with a 'Stop' has been regularly rejected by Highways.

The result is that locals emerge without stopping into crossing traffic, sometimes having to brake hard to avoid collisions.

Gertrude the Wombat
10th Feb 2018, 16:36
The result is that locals emerge without stopping into crossing traffic, sometimes having to brake hard to avoid collisions.
They are, therefore, choosing to disobey the "give way". What makes you think they're any more likely to obey "stop"?

VP959
10th Feb 2018, 16:46
We have a similar disputed junction on the road into our village. It's a Y junction, with both arms being two way, and at the junction of the Y there is no indication as to who has right of way, no signs, no road markings, nothing. To make matters worse, when leaving the village you can't see traffic on the main road until you are at the end of one of the short (one car length approximately) branches of the Y.

The Parish Council keeps raising it with the council highways people, everyone agrees it's dangerous as it is, but no one can come up with a plan to fix it. It's a standing item in every issue of the Parish Magazine, saying "Nothing has yet been decided on how to deal with The Triangle".

RAT 5
10th Feb 2018, 18:08
I was exiting Nice Airport departures. You drive down a ramp with good visibility both left & right. The road you are joining is empty as fas as the eye can see. Unawares, because I was concentrating on the danger into which I might be entering, I failed to see the STOP sign. I slowed to a crawl, literally, and seeing nothing joined the mani exit road and a gendarme left out in front of me with hand held aloft.
There the ensued a conversation that I had driven through a STOP sign. OMG. School boy French and much boot licking led to a shrug and a "don't do it again, and take more care."
Care? Of course I took care to confirm the damn road was empty; but for monsieur gendarme a STOP is a stop, even if it is totally irrelevant. I thought I had landed in Zurich by mistake, or perhaps Tehran.

DType
10th Feb 2018, 18:45
My father (many years ago, obviously) requested a "Bend" sign for a sharp corner near our house. Reply was, "Not needed, it is not a dangerous corner."
Sadly, after the foreseeable double fatality, it became officially dangerous, and a sign went up.
Accident prevention?

G-CPTN
10th Feb 2018, 18:49
As a young child I was a passenger in a neighbour's car (along with my mother) when he crawled out of a junction (in the dark) only to be accosted by a policeman who had been lurking in the shadows.
It was indeed a 'Halt' sign, but the environment was a junction which saw little traffic (and certainly was deserted on a Sunday evening).
No other vehicle appeared during the lengthy documentation process.
The offence was absolute - neighbour had failed to come to a complete stop before proceeding.

Pontius Navigator
10th Feb 2018, 18:58
But really, a complaint to the police should have been passed by the police to the council, so should have been effective.
a local farmer struck a deal with a local gravel company. They got the sand, he got a reservoir.

I pointed out to the police that it was unprotected, near the road and inviting to local youth with summer approaching. The initial responsibility was 'so what'. When I referred to HSE transfer of responsibility she got the message and kicked the problem upstairs. Barbed wire, notices and life buoys appeared.

Once you press the right buttons things happen.

Winemaker
10th Feb 2018, 19:20
"I have always been puzzled by the focus on speed when it comes to road safety, It's the force of the impact that does the damage."

eryops, it's kinetic energy (the energy of motion) that does the deed. Ek = 1/2mv². At twice the speed there is four times the energy. Raising speed from 30 mph/kph to 40 mph/kph increases energy by 78%.

ExSp33db1rd
10th Feb 2018, 23:06
We have a right turning junction into a one way street protected by a Give Way sign.

Give Way doesn't "necessarily" mean stop, but most do, regardless of the fact that one can easily merge with the traffic coming from the left, that bit of the road being two-way, so both vehicles can still exist side by side in the bit that has now become one way, with 2 lanes in the same direction.

Stopping because a car is approaching from ones' left, but still 10 miles away ( sic) stops the town completely, and I have suggested that the Give Way sign is replaced by a Merge Like a Zip sign, as witnessed in other parts of NZ, especially when 2 motorways join.

The local Council say that the road one is merging into is a State Highway, and they have no jurisdiction, this is the province of the NZ Land Transport Authority.

A***e covering, buck passing at its best.

I "merge", get hooted at, but keep the town moving.

QED.

Pontius Navigator
11th Feb 2018, 08:09
ExSpbrd, luxury, in UK where we have two lane one-way street one lane is inevitably a car park. Often a car park when two-way as well with traffic generally ignoring the approaching traffic in the clear lane. Faiur enough if they are already in that lane but loads just follow through.

Oops, wrong thread should be in Grumpy thread.

Tashengurt
11th Feb 2018, 09:46
"But really, a complaint to the police should have been passed by the police to the council, so should have been effective"

If anyone ever wonders why the Police took so long to get to your burglary/ damage/ assault then this is why. The Police have become the agency of everything.

Loose rivets
11th Feb 2018, 11:11
Well, I think if they nick motorists, that's one of their everything functions.

As a Texas resident for many years I hated with a passion STOP signs. And yes, the Sheriff used to lurk and ticket anyone who's wheels didn't come to a standstill. You had to stop, and then edge forward to see if it was clear to go. Most folk didn't bother but occasionally got a bilious official to their detriment. However, if ever there was a need for such a sign, it would be at these junctions. There have been only two stop signs to my knowledge within 10 miles of Frinton.



This is the patch of Frinton. The Avenues run from the sea north to the railway line. One is posh if your in those confines. Sea and farmland make the other boundaries - apart form a private road that'll rip your sump off.


People get up a heck of a lick on the N - S roads. The crossings are astonishingly hard to see when the trees are heavy with leaves and with rain.

I was sitting beside a young driving enthusiast, an architect, and hollered that we were coming to one of the three main gotcha's. It was after that I called the police.


If the fault was with the road layout or markings your complaint should've gone to the Highways agency or local council.

That's much what they said, but I argued it was their duty to get something done. In a conversation at the accident, one policeman came over to me to continue my mention of the past call. He'd changed his mind somewhat, and agreed that they might have, should have, done something as the junctions were so deceptive. It was a phase of my life where I was severely overburdened with work and I feel considerable guilt that I didn't pursue the matter.

My American grandchildren had regularly used that blocked footpath over the last few weeks.


.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Feb 2018, 11:48
If anyone ever wonders why the Police took so long to get to your burglary/ damage/ assault then this is why. The Police have become the agency of everything.
Nah, that's your local councillor. Something like 20% of casework is actually anything to do with the council they belong to?

The police are mostly doing mental health and social work - which councillors get too, but they get a whole load of other stuff too.

Pontius Navigator
11th Feb 2018, 12:02
Tash, correct except that the police are visible, the council or road safety partnership, who work with the police, are not.

I use Fix My Street, it seems quite effective.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Feb 2018, 12:16
I use Fix My Street, it seems quite effective.
Depends where you live. Some councils have a gateway from FMS to their helpdesk system which tends to work fine.

Others don't, and have to re-key stuff from emails from FMS into their own systems. Which rapidly gets so tedious that they say "CBA with this, we won't take FMS reports any more".

Pontius Navigator
11th Feb 2018, 12:22
GTW, that might be the case in Lincolnshire. Of course if they fixed the streets!

RAT 5
11th Feb 2018, 16:22
I pointed out to the police that it was unprotected, near the road and inviting to local youth with summer approaching. The initial responsibility was 'so what'. When I referred to HSE transfer of responsibility she got the message and kicked the problem upstairs. Barbed wire, notices and life buoys appeared.


Oh dear. Where I live, not UK, such a wild open water pond is used as a recreational delight for which the farmer receives some income. He might even open a snack caravan. All good because children are taught to swim properly shortly after walking: and nanny state is not allowed to infringe.

Pontius Navigator
11th Feb 2018, 16:27
RAT, when established maybe, this was raw earth. We had a similar one at the bottom of the garden. A few kids used to fish there then the farmer fenced it - not my doing.