$100 Million Settlement

[rotor-rooter]

Wow.

$100 million settlement for man critically injured in fiery Frisco, Colo., helicopter crash


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/02/01/100-million-settlement-man-critically-injured-fiery-frisco-colo-helicopter-crash/1088199001/

[Self loading bear]

WoW,
For that money you could have all 350’s fitted with crash worthy tanks.

Cheers SLB

[Spunk]

As I don’t have any experience on As350, are all of them equipped with a “plastic tank”?

[malabo]

Noted in the article that 85% of helicopters flying today likewise wouldn't meet the new crashworthy standard, so are all those now grounded or uninsurable? Cause was pilot not switching on hydraulics, getting somewhat removed to after crash consequences. Must be a litigation US deal that the operator/OEM of an aircraft complying with a regulated certification standard can still be sued for not being "good enough". We can start to split hairs on whether any fuel system won't be compromised in a crash.

[Ian Corrigible]

As I don’t have any experience on As350, are all of them equipped with a “plastic tank”?

All but those military/paramilitary AS550s optioned with the self-sealing tank (glass/kevlar/resin laminated structure + carbon stiffeners).

The H130 (https://www.airbushelicopters.ca/product/h130/#url=Technology) (EC130 T2) is fitted as standard with a new flexible bladder crashworthy tank, and Airbus has been working to adapt this for the H125 (http://airbushelicoptersinc.com/images/products/H125/Bro-H125-2016.pdf#page=13) (AS350 B3e) as well.

https://i.imgur.com/s9enOe1.jpg

Robertson Fuel Systems and StandardAero have also certified a retrofittable crashworthy bladder tank (http://www.vectoraerospace.com/AirframeServices/AirbusHelicopters/CrashResistantFuelTank.aspx) for the AS350, which was certified last December (http://www.robertsonfuelsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Robertson-AS350-EC130-CRFT-STC-FAA-Certification-2017-FINAL.pdf). Air Methods is a launch customer for that tank.

https://i.imgur.com/CJoGQE6.jpg

I/C

[Helitech2316]

Actually, all H125 helicopters come with crashworthy tanks now. They've been that way for about 2 years now.

[Ian Corrigible]

The most recent target date I'd heard was Q1 2017, but I understood this had slipped to the right.

I/C

[Helitech2316]

The most recent target date I'd heard was Q1 2017, but I understood this had slipped to the right.

I/C The US and I would think the Canadian market have been crash worthy for a while now. I work at US Airbus on the 350 line.

[Hot and Hi]

Noted in the article that 85% of helicopters flying today likewise wouldn't meet the new crashworthy standard, so are all those now grounded or uninsurable?
Are you saying the helicopter that you fly carries several hundred million USD insurance cover (for which after this ruling the premium is likely to go up)?

This is your (the operator’s / the owner’s / the pilot’s and now apparently also the OEM’s) third party liability. The awarded amount is newsworthy (and noteworthy to any of us who could be held liable). But the general liability for damages, loss of income, etc. pp. of accident victims (in your aircraft, or ‘innocent’ bystanders on the ground) has always been there, almost entirely regardless of your (be it pilot, operator’s, etc.) proven negligence or complete innocence.

Insurers are quite happy to offer TPL insurance per helicopter for USD 500k TPL cover (legal minimum for commercial operators in some countries) or maybe a few million dollars. If the claim against the insured exceeds the TPL cover, the insurer will pay up to the agreed max cover. You are liable for the balance.

But I agree. The question is how do we protect ourselves against TPL claims that may by far exceed any TPL cover that the operator possibly can afford.

I also foresee OEM’s to become more ruthless in the future in making mandatory via AD’s to retrofit any possible safety improvement (of course entirely at the owner’s expense) to the entire fleet, the moment a specific risk becomes known or a solution becomes available.

As much as we all feel with the victim of this horrific accident, such a settlement sets a dangerous precedent.

[Thomas coupling]

Why is it that claims in america look like telephone numbers and those in britain dont?
€100 million pay out is obscene. There isn't a human being alive who is worth that much.
The world has lost the plot.

[Ennio]

Why is it that claims in america look like telephone numbers and those in britain dont?
€100 million pay out is obscene. There isn't a human being alive who is worth that much.
The world has lost the plot.

Your joking right?
Every human life is priceless.

[CRAN]

Firstly, this was a horrible accident and my deepest sympathy go to the injured party for the trauma he has experienced and the loss of quality of life he will have to live with for the rest of his life. This is obviously terrible and I hope his portion of the settlement will restore some happiness to his life. However, I don't think $100M will make significant difference to having a more modest, but secure income for the rest of his life and sufficient funds to cover his on going medical costs. The $100M isn't about his needs, its about the commission driven lawyers pursuing a large corporate entity and it is largely a US problem.

The problem in the US is multi-faceted, but the three biggest issues are:

(a) Elected state court judges, whose positions depend in being elected by the populous. (You can infer for yourself how this might affect their judgements) I don't know if this hearing was a state court or federal court matter.

(b) Punitive Damages; in the US settlements not only provide costs to cover lost income and compensation for the victim, but all PUNISH the company deemed to have liability for the loss.

(c) No-win, no-fee lawyers on big commission, typically 30-40%. I could tell you some real horror stories about this...but obviously not on a public forum!

In 1978 the US alone produced 17,811 new light aircraft, this is down to around 2,000 now, thanks largely to the lawyers rendering the light end of the industry untenable.

If you wander why light aircraft still use 1950's technology, blame the lawyers and settlements like this, 30-40% of which would have gone to the lawyers. By 1985 the cost of insurance or pay outs was larger than the cost of the aircraft itself for smaller aircraft!

If you want to know why a Cessna 172 costed $80K (in todays money) in 1978 and around $350K today for exactly the same aircraft blame the lawyers.

In this industry we all understand that we take a degree of calculated risk in flying or operating in helicopters. If you don't want to be at risk of a crash, fly a desk, its a matter of personal choice. What has happened in the states, is that some well-meaning laws which apply to all areas of life and industry have had some very severe unintended consequences on industries that involve a degree of risk of harm that its operatives have been prepared to take in return for the lifestyle or rewards on offer. These laws have been exploited by commission hungry lawyers on the hunt for the next big corporate to sue for a big share of a telephone number pay out.

#brokensystem

The net result of this is that the USA is no loner a viable place to produce affordable light aircraft as every US aircraft carries with it a huge product liability cost that the rest of the world does not have to the same extent.

CRAN
:mad:

[wrench1]

Why is it that claims in america look like telephone numbers and those in britain dont?
.
The main reason is the application of US Tort law to these cases which includes product liability as mentioned above but also covers an A-Z of other issues. Add into that over half of the US Congress are practicing/former attorneys so we will never see reform on Tort rules.

A good example of how Tort adds to these costs can be seen in the US medical industry. Several reports have shown that 1/4 of all US medical procedures/stays are done strictly for legal reasons vs medical reasons to the tune of $300 to $600 Billion per year.

Go figure how much tort adds to the cost in aviation.

[Miles Gustaph]

The rules for liability for injuries in aircraft accidents is governed by the Warsaw convention and is subject to a limitation of liability, a limitation that is worth in the ballpark of $170,000.

The exception to the limitation of liability is if the carrier is negligent or does not issue the correct paperwork for the flight.

Without trawling through the legal judgement for this specific case I would suggest the following as possible justification for a large payout.

Firstly negligence has been claimed in that Airbus helicopters knew that the fuel tanks were not crashworthy, hence the standard issue fit to production-line models and 'should' have issued a SB mandating the fitting of a new tank.

Secondly, and I hope that this isn't the case, that the passenger as a medical evacuee was deemed to not have a ticket and be subject to the limitation of liability. If this has been raised then it will have dire consequences across the medical evacuation business segment.

[wrench1]

The rules for liability for injuries in aircraft accidents is governed by the Warsaw convention .
It is my understanding the Warsaw act applies only to common carriage ops with an international travel component and does not apply to private carriage ops. Most US EMS helicopter ops are private carriage Part 135 ops and fall under US State or Federal jurisdiction depending where the original claimant is filed.

[homonculus]

A good example of how Tort adds to these costs can be seen in the US medical industry. Several reports have shown that 1/4 of all US medical procedures/stays are done strictly for legal reasons vs medical reasons to the tune of $300 to $600 Billion per year.


For all the faults of US medicine, this is rubbish

[wrench1]

For all the faults of US medicine, this is rubbish
Not quite. It's actually got a name: Defensive Medicine. It's been around for years and found in every 1st world medical system. Even in the UK NHS. You might want to google it one day.

[magyarflyer]

For all the faults of US medicine, this is rubbish

after 45 years of medcine and surgery practice in usa
dont tell me this is rubbish

in the 70's we use to do the best we could to the patients
then the attorneys took over

now when we see a patient first thing in mind is not "what i can do to help this patient?" but

"what I need to do to protect myself against malpractice if i take care of this patient?"

that means that first you have to obtain hard data to prove what is not present ie expensive diagnostic tests to confirm and protect you as a doctor
then you try to determine what is that the patient needs.

we use to diagnose appendicitis with our hands and brains in the 70's
now it takes 2000 dollars to obtain a CT scan since missing the diagnosis will cost you perhaps 100 million dolllars

dont call this rubbish. its the price the attorneys ask that determines how we practice medicine in USA

[blackdog7]

Interesting precedent.
The "latest" requirements for Crash Worthy Fuel Systems outlined in Part 27 - 952 have been in place since 1994 (23 years).
Air Methods knowingly operated a product which the manufacturer used a "grandfather" clause to avoid installing a CWFS.
The manufacturer, by means of offering a CWFS retrofit will certainly reduce it's liability for future accidents.
The operator on the other hand.....
And what about Part 27 - 561? It's been there since 1994 and was likely a contributor to the death of pilot Pat Mahany.

[homonculus]

Gentlemen, before you lock horns, please read the posts

The claim was that 25% of all PROCEDURES and STAYS were not due to medical need. I accept many investigations and components could be eliminated for no loss, but suggesting that 1 in 4 patients admitted to a US hospital has nothing wrong with them and that 25% of operations are not necessary is I repeat rubbish

Magyarflyer sorry you are so cynical. When I was at Parkland we introduced CT for appendicitis and I did an audit. We eliminated a number of operations so the overall cost fell. Ultrasound or CT is now standard around the world and reduces risk

Yes I agree there is a lot of waste due to defensive medicine, but please dont exaggerate or the lawyers will never be controlled!!

[Thomas coupling]

Regarding the fact that no-one is worth $100 million.
In 1992, Boeing undertook an investigation after another 737 crashed killing 25, when it found out that the screw jack on the rudder 'ran away'. They worked out that to retro fit all of the 737's out there would cost "X" but paying the projected number of deceased (estates) due to this sort of incident happening again would be "Y". As "X" was way higher than "Y" it was decided to keep the results of their findings to themselves and they asked the FAA to comply. The FAA complied!
The findings determined that the cost of all the payouts that 'might' happen in future amounted to "Y" and that this figure divided by the number of passengers affected was $800 each. $800 is what Boeing and the FAA decided a life was worth to hide the truth.

Even affording a million pounds a year to look after someone until they die - $100 million is way too much.
Lawyers run this world, not common sense.:mad:

[Bell_ringer]

While the American legal system is a law (no pun intended) to itself, there is some merit to big payouts.
Corporates can avoid doing more than they consider necessary because it is more cost effective no to.
When they will face severe penalties - financial or criminal - this tends to get managements notice and motivate a more proactive culture.
You can't reduce pain, suffering and loss to a number - though lawyers do.
If you're prepared to reduce it to an arbitrary amount the same logic can be applied to make the eyes water instead.

Nothing is a better motivator than punishing the bottom line.

[wrench1]

but suggesting that 1 in 4 patients admitted to a US hospital has nothing wrong with them and that 25% of operations are not necessary is I repeat rubbish

I don't recall mentioning/suggesting anything about patients so allow me clarify: reports have shown that 25% of all procedures and stays prescribed for all US patients are performed for legal reasons and not medical reasons.

but please dont exaggerate Don't have to exaggerate. My figures are actually 5 years old. Current annual costs on defensive medical decisions are reported past the $800 Billion mark based on a $3.3 Trillion health care spending.

And these reports/figures are also easily available from public sources for those who choose to look.

It is what it is.

[ethicalconundrum]

Gentlemen, before you lock horns, please read the posts

The claim was that 25% of all PROCEDURES and STAYS were not due to medical need. I accept many investigations and components could be eliminated for no loss, but suggesting that 1 in 4 patients admitted to a US hospital has nothing wrong with them and that 25% of operations are not necessary is I repeat rubbish


I read them. I agree with them. There is a growing opinion that 25% unneeded might be on the low end of the scale. My wife recently suffered from sciatia, which I diagnosed at home with a few simple questions, checked the temp and lividity of both legs. We went to the family doctor, and he called for a CAT scan, blood workup(done in the past 6 mo), and possibly some invasive spine procedure. I told him to calm the **** down, and lets just do the sciatica protocol first. She got an anti-inflammatory, 6 weeks of PT, and no lifting(she's a senior care asst, and has to help lift patients all the time). Sciatica pretty much gone, she's back to no pain and we're careful now about straining back and twisting. If we had gone through all the checks the MD advised, it would have been 4X what we finally took care of. We're not alone. If the insurer is paying, they'll call for everything in the book, and it's a fat book at that.

[homonculus]

This discussion is threatening to derail the thread, but

Wrench 1: a 'stay' is laymen's slang for what doctors call 'an admission' so that is exactly what you are suggesting.

ethicalconundrum: back pain is a medical nightmare, with perhaps the largest cost expansion and scant evidence that simple procedures are less effective than the very costly ones. Cant agree more. Also agree there is defensive medicine, unnecessary tests and wasted money. But 25% of any parameter across a hospital or system is simply exaggeration. The sort of thing the Daily Moil reader might beleive

[ethicalconundrum]

I don't know what the age of the burn victim was. If he was a healthy man in his late 20s, and survived the massive external burns, he's likely going to live for 50-ish more years. He's also going to have huge ongoing medical expenses during that lifetime. Given the state of the art medical coverage, and some matter of defensive medicine, his lifetime costs could be in the multiple tens of millions. Not that the entire pot of the settlement is his and his alone.

Further, the punitive damages in the US when the plaintiff goes court shopping could be huge. And it would seem, with little research on my part that punitive award was going to be both justified and ergo, massive. Maybe that settlement was considered reasonable in the light of day, and the facts at hand.

One thing I will join in condemning is the cost to the aviation community due to other unjust liability settlements. Guy in NJ flies a Bonanza CFIT in a thunderstorm and his family is awarded $7 mil? WTF? guy in AZ rips the wing off a Piper Seneca during OEN training and the family gets $22 mil? Awards like this where pilot error is the proximate cause, and the fact that the Bonanza wasn't equipped with a strikefinder upgrade are just indefensible. The stupidity of the jury in the face of tragic consequence is our own failing, and I have no apology for it.

[wrench1]

But 25% of any parameter across a hospital or system is simply exaggeration. The sort of thing the Daily Moil reader might beleive
Thread drift for sure. But if you believe that reports from the JAMA, NEJM, ABIM, and RAND group are on par with the Daily Mail... well you are entitled to your opinion.