What a crazy excuse for a career?

[Kelly Hopper]

I have just been looking at career opportunities on the BBC website. WOW! Why would anyone consider spending upwards of £100k for an utterly instable, abusive, piss taking excuse for a career in aviation? My experience extends to a multitude of airlines and executive jet operators that are simply interested in taking the maximum piss from you for the minimum reward. The ever ongoing argument is that "it is better than sitting in an office, 9-5". This I never understood as if that is the only option to flying?
Just as an example the BBC have 20 pages of vacancies of all sorts of interesting positions that no doubt would pay more than a livable wage with benefits I could only dream of? (Never had a pension even offered to me!) WTF are you wannabies thinking? There are a multitude of great jobs out there where you are made to feel valued, paid well, and given a huge range of benefits aircrew don't even know exist! Or you could mortgage your life away to sit in boredom with the axe of redundancy hanging over your head your whole "career?" CAREER?

[Capt Scribble]

I look forward to hearing of your successful application to the BBC and how good life is over there.

[jayteeto]

More like 500-1000

You are obviously in the wrong job. Some employers still look after you, including my present one. However, I fly because I love it, always have. When management positions have loomed, I have moved back to a flying post often for less money.
Sorry life hasn’t treated you as well

[MaverickPrime]

Being a doctor takes about 7 years, same for a lawyer/barrister.

Plenty of Solicitors/Barristers scrounging around for work. Plenty off them coming back out of retirement because they haven't saved enough into their pension pots. Its a myth that they are all well paid. There are maybe a few in London with private practices that are minted, but they are the few!

As for Doctors, you can make a packet as a consultant, but you work every hour God sends. Either private work on top of NHS salary, or pick up overtime on top of salary.

[Officer Kite]

How many lawyers and people in the medical professions have left to become pilots? Almost every selection day I attended there was at least from one of those professions looking to get out.

All in all, if you're aim is to just make money, then there are plenty of other ways to do it, but if you love flying and have a genuine passion for it, then I think making a career of it isn't particularly the worst decision you'll ever make ... and you will earn enough to live quite comfortably, certainly more than the population average.

Almost everyone I graduated from school with is now either in their last year of university clueless as to what to do with their soon to arrive shiny degree, or working in the local B&Q, some also have secured apprentice jobs ... the salaries aren't even worth mentioning really.

Pay is quite poor at first, but you're ignoring the facts if you think pilots are among the worst paid.

And speaking of the BBC ... Does your job pay less than it did five years ago? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40756834)

"Pilots enjoyed an average pay rise of 26% between 2011 and 2016 - taking their average annual salary up to a cool £86,855."

Note that's the average, get a command somewhere and you're way past that average at most places ... or are you suggesting that the BBC employed writer is paid more? :rolleyes:

[highfive]

If the BBC writer is male, then perhaps so !

[aileron]

I stopped paying for a UK TV licence 7 years ago. Happy to not fund that (BBC) system ever again. Freedom.

Walk away from the TV licence, walk away from the rest of it....SKY etc

Never been happier.

[bombaydude]

come off it....you have always been happy!

[macdo]

Sorry, the OP's point is rubbish. The pay scales for 2015-2016 are published on the net after a freedom of information request. 11 Scales with an out of London min of 20k to an in London max of 73k. Two Senior Management grades which are on a case by case basis, which include the Director General.
So, BBC pay for the vast majority of employees varies between GA flying instructor up to legacy airline SFO. Any Captain flying a heavy jet is a clear winner and a TRI/E is up with the BBC senior managers.
You can slag aviation off for many things, and I'd not recommend it to anyone who doesn't have a "passion" about flying, but pay is not something which most should complain about over the whole of your career.

[Contact Approach]

Kelly Whopper, you fly planes. What is wrong with you?

[clamchowder]

A friend works in banking, city of London. He works 12+ hours a day 5+ days a week. 3% pension. I worked for 2 airlines, the worse of which was more than double his 3% pension. Not to mention the 'time at work' is much less as a pilot.
Grass is greener scenario? Or you've worked for some pretty bad outfits.

[banterbus]

That's great, no one cares, go away and enjoy the lovely views from media city and have fun at the BBC. Idiot.

[AMS]

the truth is always hard to swallow

[3Greens]

My friend is chief sports writer at the bbc. Gets paid about the same as a pp1 FO at BA. Makes a few quid freelancing, writing books etc; but not enough to make it comparable to a
Pilots remuneration.

[Fire and brimstone]

Are we all agreed then?

Being a pilot is one of the best jobs in the world.

Total job satisfaction, brilliant employers, and nice working hours.

Well worth the £100,000 entry fee.

[Chris the Robot]

I've seen a few would-be pilots entering the train driving world these days, all training is paid for by the employer, you get £25-35k during training and about £50k thereafter for a 4 day 35 hour week. There have been a couple of huge pay deals recently so at some places basic plus an average of half a day a week of overtime will net about £75k. Final salary pension too. It's a good career in itself but a few also use it to fund the modular route into the airlines.

The top signalling grades do alright too, their training wage is something like 90% of qualified pay so anyone above Grade 7 (on a scale of 1-9) will be on £40k+ during training. It is possible (but very competitive) to get in off the street on the top grades though.

[Trossie]

This rubbish 'article' probably belongs on this Thread: Pilot shortage: Who's going to fly our planes? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-42917181/pilot-shortage-who-s-going-to-fly-our-planes)

There are many aspects to this question.

Shelling out £100,000 to get into a fragile career is rather daft, but there will always be those who want to do it in order to be able to walk around 'posh' terminals in their uniforms and put 'Airline Pilot' on Farcebook. Looking rather tired and disheveled in your uniform at a 'chav' airport doesn't have quite the same 'touch' but there are still those who get a 'buzz' out of it.

But then there are those who genuinely enjoy flying. However, very often they have not shelled out such a large amount for that 'instant gratification licence' but have worked their way up and built up enjoyable, unforgettable and useful experience.

Then there is lifestyle. Generally in the airline world it stinks. Endless time away from families, totally unsociable hours, forgetting what summer is because you are so shagged out that it passes you by, having your work changed from day to day, and so on. However there are some hidden gems that get that balance quite right. 'Image' and lifestyle seldom go together.

Then there's the money. Undoubtedly it can be good. But often is it worth it? £100k when you never get a chance to see your kids playing in the garden of the large house that you own but only spend much time in in the depths of winter or on a weekday morning when they're all at school/work?

Then what is a 'career'? Is it a comfortable but rather staid 'job for life' with a good 'image', or is it something like one of those hidden gems that you look back at later and think "It had it's ups and downs with lots of chopping and changing, but overall it was interesting and good and I've still got my family who remember who I am"? Of all the Posters here, I think that jayteeto is the one that I would most enjoy having a long chat with in a cosy pub (or flying club bar?)

[SSDK]

Hmmmmm. This sounds a bit "grass is always greener-ish" tbh. Having a "Tech world degree" from before I started flying and actually using it working for 2 different companies (one small, and one large) I certainly don´t regret moving over to aviation! Yes, the first 2-3-4 years were hard and sometimes even brutal but all in all I think it was well worth it!

I have many friends working in an office environment, including my better half, and boy would I hate the day to day "office politics" that people have to stand for. On top of that as a LHS pilot, I make way more than them even though they have more experience in their field than me. And they have had twice as much time in the educational system!...

Yes, I miss having more time for friends and family in the summer. Yes, I would love to be able to just point at a calendar and say "I want that week off". But are things really that much different in "the real world"? All I hear is the endless moaning about salary, free time in the evenings and pension. Just like we do it. I honestly think we have just simply moved into a world of more stress, higher expectations and more pressure to reach a better bottom line. In the tech world where i "come from" it is not uncommon to set goals of 20+ growth per year. This can only be achieved with pressure from above!

With that said. We still have much room for improvement. Join a union and participate actively. If there is one thing we pilots are world class at. It is moaning without doing a damn thing about it!

Just a few facts about me before I start taking flack:

-Working for a LCC
-Flying for 16 years (10 years commercially)
-Did not receive a penny from mom and dad.

[PA28161]

Kelly Hopper

Hmmm. I presume you are in commercial aviation? Your post reminds me of a workshop the actor Tom Hanks had given, some years ago, to young wannabe actors. Tom's advice was to wait until a serious, ambitious role is offered to you and just don't accept any old crap. Of course, Tom was sitting pretty with a multi-million dollar bank account whilst his attentive listeners, broke and penniless, and desperate to find some acting work, hanging on his every word. Of course, Tom never dredged up his early "serious" offerings vis a vis: Splash, The Burbs et al.

[RHINO]

What BPI said...

[45989]

SSDK

Perhaps one of the more rational responses.
Still prepared to work for slave wages though.

[SSDK]

Have tried both slave wages and a pretty good salary. Personally, I am ok with some sort of "lower salary" in the beginning. I started at about 1600 pounds per month Gross as a SEP FI. Now, 10 years down the line; around 133.000/year excluding pension, LHS in LCC with an annual pay increase. I will never own a lambo, but thats ok with me.

[Fly26]

Because I’m an aviator and I luv to fly....

[Aware]

Not quite true - I left aviation full time to become an IFA and run my business we look after clients with regulation very difficult to be anything else thank goodness. And remember an advisors advice now is effectively guaranteed for life they carry the liability to the grave.

I now FI weekends days off so and that’s keeps me attached to the flying thing. Do ATPL groundschool and PPL IMC night.

I do agree with saving though many don’t and life’s is bleak at retirement - divorce is disaster for most clients Ive dealt with as Wife seems always to get house and many guys start again at 50 plus with a 300K mortgage. And spousal maintance !

Many airline friends love it many hate it but almost all IFAS who work for themselves love it, ones who work for companies not so much, strange old world.

Flying the aircraft is wonderful working for for modern companies not so IMHO.

[adolf hucker]

Well done you, what a clever boy! How about a couple more posts just to let us all know what a financial genius you are.

There's probably a middle way between p!ssing away all your income on cars / ex-wives and spending all your time, like bpi, hoarding your cash while life passes you by. True enough, none of us wants to live like a pauper in retirement but, on the other hand, what's the point of relentlessly acquiring digits in a bank account during the prime of your life?

[Cliff Secord]

Why does having a Lamborghini make you a sad prat? They’re fine examples of motoring engineering. I can imagine if you’re enthusiastic about cars, like them and can afford one it might bring you hours of fun and enjoyment. They’re not my cup of tea, but that’s my personal taste.

I always think people denigrating others because they don’t spend their own money on what you personally would choose points rather more to that persons lack of emotional intelligence. And there’s a lot of it about.

[Callsign Kilo]

Have you worked outside of aviation? I mean an entirely different profession? One that says it’s 9-5 Monday to Friday, but in reality isn’t. Or have you ever owned a business and have it consume your every day? Ever wake up on a Sunday dreading Monday so much that you are unable to sleep that night?

Been there, done that. Reality is that if you wish the same remuneration (let’s say as an SFO up to Captain of a medium jet) then that’s your life. Every sector in every industry wants more for less. Outside of aviation is no different. I’d happily not go back to anything resembling a ‘desk job’ or the fairytale 9-5

[hph304]

There is more in the world than the British roads and most of the people at WOW are very happy and don't see it as sentence.

[Falling_Penguin]

Enjoying this thread and especially button push ignored's posts. Also looking forward to the elaboration :-)

[Callsign Kilo]

Straight answer, don’t go to Iceland if you don’t have to. I say the same to others regarding China, the ME or anywhere else that requires upheaval. If you have reservations from the offset then you’re destined to be unhappy.

Same as any other career in any other industry. If you’re not truely committed then it’s a chore.

If you’re a wannabe, then that’s different. You go where you’re given a break. We all did and made the necessary sacrifices. Again, pretty much the same as any other professional career. Aviation isn’t unique.

[Chris the Robot]

Funny banking is mentioned, I jacked in a position in the City to go and learn to drive trains for a living, though I also took a good look at commercial aviation. It wasn't really the hours that were a problem (I didn't work for an IB) but I just got sick and tired of the office and the politics. I would only go back if I absolutely had to.

Most jobs in banking, law, accountancy, consulting etc. which pay big money require insane hours and usually have loads of politics attached to them, it's cutthroat and you basically sell your soul to them. I did meet one bloke who really had it made following twenty years in an IB, he said he treated it in his mind like a massive game and that's what kept him going. Funnily enough, at the same event I also met a train driver who had switched from banking...