Airline Seniority Question

[Stationair8]

You got a start with Ansett or TAA, in the swinging 70’s on the Fokker F27, could you stay as an FO on that type until you got a command on the F27?

Likewise if you finished up as a B727 FO, could you stay as an FO on that type until a command on that type was available?

Or did you have to start back on the F27, and then into the Diesel 9?

[Capn Bloggs]

Yes, Yes, No.

[ilikecheese]

Does QF allow vertical promotion these days? Or do you have to go domestic first before getting in the RHS of a wide body?

[Keg]

Vertical promotion generally not available for S/O in QF on A380, B744 or B787.

The exception is a RIN’d ex 767 F/O less than five years ago. More than five years and the normal restrictions apply. That’s today anyway.

[blow.n.gasket]

Hi Keg,
Heard there is presently a senior F/O on the 747 about to start initial Command training on that aircraft.

[Keg]

Good point. Have amended accordingly. Not sure if they allow F/O A380 to initial command 380 either. They didn’t once upon a time.

[Tankengine]

Good point. Have amended accordingly. Not sure if they allow F/O A380 to initial command 380 either. They didn’t once upon a time.

A while ago it changed. SO to FO no vertical promotion, FO to Captain allowed.
One 747 FO and one A380 FO with command spots on their aircraft.

[Dora-9]

In Ansett in the 70"s, most FO's started on the F27, just a few perhaps on the DC4/Carvair fleet. Seniority dictated everything, you could bid for other types (DC9 and/or B727) as these aircraft offered different (better?) lifestyles and, given the weight/speed formula, paid better. When you'd achieved enough seniority for a command (about 8 years' service in the 70's) and if you wanted one straight away, then your choice was the F27 and (by that time) the L188. The airline wanted all initial commands to be done on the F27, but this idea fell into disfavour. If you wanted to do your initial command on the DC9 you could, but you'd have to wait until there was no-one senior to you bidding for this. The F27 had a rather dire reputation (a lot of failed commands), so some preferred to wait for the perceived easier DC9. You then worked your way up through the types again. Some preferred to stay on a "junior" type (F27) but as your seniority increased you'd have better control of your lifestyle.
I joined Ansett in 1969 on the F27, was "drafted" onto the DC4/Carvair a year later, after a year returned to the F27, then flew the DC9 and B727. After nearly 8 years in total I returned to the F27 as a captain.
Times to command in TAA were much longer, for a variety of reasons, while in the subsidiaries (MMA, ASA and ANSW) you simply "changed seats" as they only operated a single type.

[TBM-Legend]

Seniority is a very expensive system...

[Dora-9]

Seniority is a very expensive system...

Usually a comment written by someone who was quite junior in the system.

Having subsequently worked for an East Asian airline that gave lip service to seniority (but in reality it meant nothing) and having seen the justifiable angst that caused I know which I preferred.

[blow.n.gasket]

With apologies to Winston Churchill :
“ Seniority is the worst form of promotional choice , except for all the others.”

At the end of the day , you still have to produce the goods and jump through the hoops set in order to pass.

[Wunwing]

TBM.
Why do you say its" a very expensive system"?
Wunwing

[TBM-Legend]

It can be a bit like musical chairs when seniority creates a number of moves including training on new types and base changes... company has to pay!

[Captain Nomad]

But it is fair and transparent - way more preferable to the proverbial backside licking variety of alternatives which has it's own set of costs with an unhappy, unstable workforce with more staff turnover...

[Tankengine]

It can be a bit like musical chairs when seniority creates a number of moves including training on new types and base changes... company has to pay!
Better the company pays than the pilots! ;)

[ACMS]

Yep only junior crew, older contract Pilots with command time or people that just don’t know anything about it that complain about seniority.

It’s actually good for the company as well, in many ways.

[Brakerider]

Yep only junior crew, older contract Pilots with command time or people that just don’t know anything about it that complain about seniority.

It’s actually good for the company as well, in many ways.

It works reasonably well at most airlines, except when Cadets with less than the minimum required time get awarded commands, do 400-500 hours of command training to make up for their lack of hours and Hog all the training resources for 6-12 months.

[27/09]

It works reasonably well at most airlines, except when Cadets with less than the minimum required time get awarded commands, do 400-500 hours of command training to make up for their lack of hours and Hog all the training resources for 6-12 months.
That's because those airlines obviously haven't got any prerequisites prior to appointing the candidate to the command position.

In my experience seniority only guarantees you a shot at a command once you met the command minimum requirements. If you don't meet the minimums you cool your heels until you do.

[parabellum]

In my experience seniority only guarantees you a shot at a command once you met the command minimum requirements. If you don't meet the minimums you cool your heels until you do.
I believe it was ever thus in most airlines. Basic requirement was senior licence, type rating, seniority, suitability and hours, sometimes a type rating could be a part of the command training. Letting somebody hold a command slot when 4 to 5 hundred hours short is, to me, quite incredible.

[Oakape]

It's great until your airline collapses from under you. When that happens, the older & more experienced you are, the more difficult your circumstances become. Unless, of course, you are happy to commute to Asia.

[krismiler]

There is a old saying, “You never turn down a command.” Even going from jet down to turboprop you still took it as that was when your career really started.

As always there were a few exceptions, older pilots who were on a desirable fleet with a good base who didn’t want the bother of a upgrade and conversion together with moving house. With various allowances factored in you could be worse off financially and not have the seniority to get back on your desired fleet.

Three trips a month in a wide body vs multi sector days in a turboprop could swing it for some people.

[parabellum]

I heard that Pan Am SFO's, based in Hawaii on the B747 gave up a shot at a command that would base them in New York, may just be anecdotal but the life style change would be quite large, I would think.

[juliet]

Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.

If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.

Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.

[Tankengine]

Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.

If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.

Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.
So says a junior pilot who is so sure he/she is better than everone else! 🙄

[juliet]

So says a junior pilot who is so sure he/she is better than everone else! 🙄

So says a relatively senior pilot, who knows he is about average with the other guys and girls who still give a s*** and so puts some effort in.

[neville_nobody]

If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power.

How?

You assume that airlines won't collude against you to keep salaries down.

Don't forget that Aviation is more akin to professional sports (ie very few buyers of your labour) than it is a real labour market that accountants and doctors operate in.

[ElZilcho]

Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.

If we had no seniority system and instead worked like doctors/lawyers/accountants etc then pilots would have a lot more industrial power. As it stands the Company know full well that no pilot is leaving. Having seniority as the standard across the industry has done far more harm to us than anything else.

Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.

That only really applies to Legacy Carriers. Plenty of Pilots leave seniority based Airlines for other Seniority based Airlines with better T's & C's.

Ever flown for an Airline without seniority? I have. You think Commands get awarded on merit? That the average Pilot waiting for "Grandad" to retire will get their shot quicker if they put the work in?

Didn't work that way in my experience. How about a "Command Assessment interview" with HR? Are you a Company Man/Woman? Why should we give you a Command? Why do you deserve one? Do you have the Companies best interests in mind?

Yea, I'll take seniority any day. :ugh:

[dr dre]

Or promotions are awarded to the chief pilot’s mates, or those from the right background or the “old boys club”. Nepotism at its finest.

[JamieMaree]

That only really applies to Legacy Carriers. Plenty of Pilots leave seniority based Airlines for other Seniority based Airlines with better T's & C's.

Ever flown for an Airline without seniority? I have. You think Commands get awarded on merit? That the average Pilot waiting for "Grandad" to retire will get their shot quicker if they put the work in?

Didn't work that way in my experience. How about a "Command Assessment interview" with HR? Are you a Company Man/Woman? Why should we give you a Command? Why do you deserve one? Do you have the Companies best interests in mind?

Yea, I'll take seniority any day. :ugh:

Seniority is a terrible system for an airline to use for deciding who will get a promotion.
It’s only positive attribute is that all of the alternatives are worse.

[john_tullamarine]

Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.

Seniority is a terrible system for an airline to use for deciding who will get a promotion.

Rather short-sighted views, methinks, although I note the implied smile in the latter post.

First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.

Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..

As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.

[krismiler]

With my mob its 2 attempts then forget about it. Best start looking around as career F/Os are officially first inline for the chop in a down turn.

Some times moving on is the best thing as a different operation provides a fresh start and another go a few years further down the track could result in a first time pass.

I know someone who was told he'd never be Captain in the airforce on transports, same thing in his first airline yet managed the upgrade in Cathay Pacific and rose to a senior position.

[27/09]

Weak pilots are becoming more common as they know that the standard is low and that there is no point in acieving anything more than a minimum pass. Just wait your turn, take a couple goes at the upgrade, easier to pass you than get you out of the Company.

Really!!!!!!!! Do us all a favour and tell us where this is going on so that we're better informed as to who we should travel with.

The Heads of Flights Ops I know of want to be able to sleep at night and not have to worry about substandard Captains ruining their day by doing something dumb and trying maim the customers. Very doubtful they'd sanction upgrading rather than by passing somebody.

[27/09]

Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.

Seniority is a terrible system for an airline to use for deciding who will get a promotion.

Rather short-sighted views, methinks, although I note the implied smile in the latter post.

First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.

Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..

As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.

Where's the Plus 1 button when you need it.

[bafanguy]

First have a strong union so that most of the time, most of the people, are kept reasonably honest in their employment dealings.

Second, so far as a command upgrade is concerned, seniority only means that Pilot Bloggs gets to have a run at command training in a reasonably predictable sequence .. unless things have changed dreadfully, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she gets the guernsey, only the opportunity. He/she still has to get over the various bars in the vaulting exercises ... I would be surprised if folk get to have more than 2-3 attempts before they either get the bullet or permanent F/O status ..

As to better ways of doing business .. of course there would be .. provided that everyone were morally honourable .. but that remains a problem.

john_t,

Well said, Sir. You're a wordsmith. Your last statement sums it up very succinctly.

And, if I may say so, those who find a seniority system an affront to their sensitivities are under no obligation to seek employment where one exists.

[grrowler]

Seniority is a bit of a sugar pill really.

99% of pilots in an airline are just your average, capable, unknown to management operators who would pretty much get a crack at promotion based on time of service regardless of a seniority system.
The other 1% still manage to bypass seniority and get the “jobs for the boys” in the form of manager, assistant manager, technical expert, etc roles.

For the airline, seniority ensures a stable senior workforce that is pretty much going to do as they are told.

If it all becomes too difficult for the airline to fulfill their obligations to seniority, they simply start or buy a splinter group to get around it.

The answers (perhaps):
No seniority, but a powerful industry body like the AMA, with some control over the supply of pilots (limiting license numbers)
Or;
An industry wide seniority - you get a number when you get your CPL or ATPL.

[morno]

Industry wide seniority, I like the sound of that!

There are many of us who through no fault of our own, missed the boat when the airlines were in a hiring boom mid 2000’s. As such, we found ourselves locked out of the ‘seniority system’ in Australia. Then eventually when things were on again, we were at the bottom of the list, with no chance to get anywhere near a command for a long time, and trying to raise families in expensive Australian cities on crappy low cost airline wages.

Thus, for me, the decision was to leave Australia and chase commands overseas instead, and earn better money so my kids could have a good education in the future.

Unfortunately this leaves people like me out of the seniority system back home, and makes it difficult to return.

Thus, it becomes clearer why I don’t like the seniority system!

morno

[parabellum]

Seniority only works for the Company and weak pilots.

Interesting piece of nonsense.

An FO awaiting upgrade has to achieve a number of prerequisits. Sufficient hours, appropriate licence, suitability, including a satisfactory training and disciplinary record, pass a command assessment and, if a seniority based airline, have sufficient seniority, but all seniority does is give a pilot a go in their due turn, it certainly doesn't guarantee a pass.

[layman]

I’m not in the airline industry but have worked in organisations where seniority was the 1st determinant for promotion and have also worked organisations that were (largely) merit based.

Neither is optimal.

Under both methods there will always be those who should have received advancement, and didn’t; and those who shouldn’t have received advancement, and did – despite the best efforts spent evaluating their capabilities.

Seniority sucks when people who are “adequate” for promotion are selected ahead of other, more capable people, due to that seniority e.g. I’m sure there would be a FOs who would be better captains than some already in that role, and some FOs who would more suited to still being SOs …

Perhaps the process should retain the current pre-requisites for ‘promotion’ (as noted by parabellum in #37), and include some form of "peer" assessment e.g. from captains flown with; check captains; Sim evaluators; etc?

Also, from a quick trawl around the ‘net, the seniority system may be open to legal challenge. It would appear that, in Canada at least, some seniority systems have been the subject of court action due their perceived discriminatory effect.

regards
layman