View Full Version : UK must leave EASA
NutLoose
30th Jan 2018, 22:21
Another licence change on the horizon :mad: :ugh:
https://www.flyer.co.uk/uk-must-leave-easa-brexit-says-eu/
Rigga
30th Jan 2018, 22:26
Total carp.
To leave EASA due to not complying with the ECJ is to say that Switzerland and Norway also have to leave. Neither have total and unlimited acceptance of EU laws.
Tom Sawyer
31st Jan 2018, 13:04
Unless the UK is a full member of the EU, and not the EFTA that Norway and Switzerland are in, we cannot be "full" members of EASA. Yes, we can stay in (depending on what status of membership is negotiated during the Brexit talks), but if we are not full members of EASA then we will lose all input into the formulation of any regulations that are developed and just have to accept them in whatever form they take and comply with them.
Heathrow Harry
31st Jan 2018, 13:41
when you picl up your ball and walk off those left set the rules
https://www.pprune.org/images/editor/separator.gif
of course we could always sue them in the ECJ......
Even if we walk, as harry says, the issue of licenses is almost moot as EASA Approved organisations should simply convert to 'Foreign' status and Licences would remain as they are - and continue to remain valid for renewal at your chosen EASA state. This situation should be the same for anyone holding FAA, CASA, NZCAA, etc, licences.
The CAA would HAVE TO issue 'Grandfather Rights' (again) licences to all currently licensed engineers and also issue BCAR Approvals to all current companies. The same as happened when joining JAA/EASA. (the same for pilots licences too)
The ONLY argument in the papers seems to be about travelling rights and I believe that is adequately covered by ICAO rules for freedom of international movement and access to destinations/airways.
Again, in my opinion, there is only complication for everyone in the perceived split - but there is no advantage for anyone mandating it. (edited bit:) there will be fees, of course!
NutLoose
2nd Feb 2018, 23:40
There is a lot more to it than that, for one Modification certification for all types etc would all need to come back in house, plus stuff like flight test dept would need to start up again as it would then be the UK's responsibility to test any new models for the UK market, as would any airworthiness directives etc... And I doubt they have either the staffing or the knowledge base to do that these days...
BluFin
3rd Feb 2018, 11:07
It was always going to be the case as the EJC is the enforcement for EASA, no ECJ no EASA, simples, house of parliament passed a law for that prior to joining anybody who thought otherwise including industry was living in 'remainerland' that's like Disney but without the rides.
From an engineering Licence perspective I would guess a complete revamp, you have the old BCAR system running in parallel currently, I could see that going. a conversion document produced, and something that would be essentially the same as EASA part 66. couldn't really use UK as that's in use now and could cause confusion. You have the transfer of state option now to convert to any member state, well apart from tx to German (LBA) who avoid non-nationals like the plague, or employed by German Part 145 companies.
easaman
3rd Feb 2018, 13:27
Folks do not worry!
UK will only leave EASA when the UK government transfers the £350 million per week to the National Health Service.
Up to now only amateurs and clowns have negotiated BREXIT subjects, towards the end will things be right sized by professionals, with common sense.
Cheers
easaman
NutLoose
3rd Feb 2018, 14:07
Well that counts the CAA out of the equation.
His dudeness
3rd Feb 2018, 16:59
UK will only leave EASA when the UK government transfers the £350 million per week to the National Health Service.
Good one, thanks.
There is a lot more to it than that, for one Modification certification for all types etc would all need to come back in house, plus stuff like flight test dept would need to start up again as it would then be the UK's responsibility to test any new models for the UK market, as would any airworthiness directives etc... And I doubt they have either the staffing or the knowledge base to do that these days...
No, they would not! there is no legal reason to cancel any currently approved methods and/or approvals. EASA Approved companies must, legally, be maintained as EASA Standard organisations and applications for STC should still be made to EASA authorities - the same was for FAA STCs too..what would change?
For rotorcraft; the CAAs FT mob still insists on importing companies paying for new type rating for CAA staff pilots so that hasn't really changed!
I'm sure I remember a set of slides from either the CAA or EASA detailing the UK options in respect to EASA/IATA after brexit, but I can't seem to find it now. Can anyone point me to it?
TIA,
PDR
easaman
5th Feb 2018, 15:07
Did you mean this one, PDR ?
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Statement-on-EU-referendum-vote/
Cheers
easaman
BluFin
5th Feb 2018, 18:04
Bloody hell a link on the web site that works
Did you mean this one, PDR ?
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Statement-on-EU-referendum-vote/
Cheers
easaman
No - it was a set of slides discussing the detailed benefits and consequences of three (I think) options for post-brexit aviation in the UK.
PDR
wrench1
6th Feb 2018, 13:47
No - it was a set of slides discussing the detailed benefits and consequences of three (I think) options for post-brexit aviation in the UK.
PDR
???
https://www.wnsdecisionpoint.com/Portals/0/Documents/Reports/PDFFiles/514/58/WNS%20DecisionPoint_Report_Brexit_UK%20Aviation%20No%20Open% 20Skies%20Post%20Brexit.pdf
No again, although that was interesting (thanks!). I finally found the slides I was looking for here (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/aviation.pdf).
But it seems to be on a very slow server!
PDR
easaman
7th Feb 2018, 08:39
I finally found the slides I was looking for here (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/aviation.pdf).PDR
This document does not look like a bright future.
When you think that the Brexiteers received their result only by telling lies and bull****, and having clowns as spearheads (he wants to build a bridge over the channel after the Brexit).
The picture of the negotiating team where the EU-Team and a pile of documents on the table, and the Brexiteers came with empty hands and did not even have an idea how to proceed, was showing the reality.
The problem is that time flies, the world is moving closer and closer, and Theresa Maybe does not have a clue how to proceed.
X-ing fingers and hope it will turn out well!
easaman
NutLoose
8th Feb 2018, 19:01
No, they would not! there is no legal reason to cancel any currently approved methods and/or approvals. EASA Approved companies must, legally, be maintained as EASA Standard organisations and applications for STC should still be made to EASA authorities - the same was for FAA STCs too..what would change?
For rotorcraft; the CAAs FT mob still insists on importing companies paying for new type rating for CAA staff pilots so that hasn't really changed!
But we won't be part of EASA, that will end with Brexit and as such a lot of what we did have with EASA will come back into house, a house that is unfortunately bare.
If we leave EASA it will become (to UK) a Foreign Aviation Authority, which EASA would either have to:
- cancel thousands of pilot and engineer licences and company approvals....or
- leave them as normal 'foreigners' who have reached all the expected standards and qualified for that authority's licence. Renewals of EASA Approvals/Licences would be the next step...
This should happen under EASA's own Human Rights Laws for the livelihood of thousands of businesses and personnel working under EASA approvals in UK and abroad - worldwide.
If Brexit actually happens, and we become the isolated Island State again, the CAA can only put in place a plan to accept the status quo and convert all existing approvals and licences over a number of years (mainly due to their lack of capability now).
Operationally, things are slightly different as EASA may retract some travel freedoms within the EU but they cannot retract ICAO rules of access and freedoms of flight. This may give Ryanair/EZY and the like, headaches as they would have to be majority(%) EU-owned to continue with all EU airways freedoms. ATC-wise NATS controls a great deal of the northern EU regions too, so that will need sorting too.
None of the above will happen crossing over a knife-edged date...conversions to Parts 145, M and 66 each took 5-year plans to embody.
The CAA could adopt FAA or EASA Certification standards as their own. It is possible, but unlikely within any real time scale, that the CAA could rebuild its former airworthiness status as a single authority...some form of sliding process would have to be built in over a number of years/decades
Nobody is expecting this to be easy.
Never mind the detail as to whether EASA will accept pilot, engineer, maintenance organisation or air operating certs as having validity the day after Partition even if the CAA say "we will keep running to EASA rules until we replace them". If they don't then of course British aircraft and pilots will be banned from European airspace (as a minimum).
The weather radar shows storms ahead...
PDR
Miles Gustaph
12th Feb 2018, 11:39
"pilots will be banned from European airspace" ...lol, like the American, Canadian, UAE and Australian pilots that are outside of Europe and can't fly in European airspace! ...O wait they can!
The European Union cannot regulate in this area! The aviation treaties that aviation runs on are all from pre-1958, a significant date as any international treaty signed before 1st January 1958 is more superior than European Union law, as laid down in the Treaty of European Union article 351.
Aviation existed before the European Union and will be around a long time after its forgotten.
But the CAA no longer has the expertise, resources or funding to return to being any more than a National Competent Body under EASA. The UK willingly ceded those rights when we joined EASA, so what you say is not true.
PDR
woptb
12th Feb 2018, 13:27
"pilots will be banned from European airspace" ...lol, like the American, Canadian, UAE and Australian pilots that are outside of Europe and can't fly in European airspace! ...O wait they can!
The European Union cannot regulate in this area! The aviation treaties that aviation runs on are all from pre-1958, a significant date as any international treaty signed before 1st January 1958 is more superior than European Union law, as laid down in the Treaty of European Union article 351.
Aviation existed before the European Union and will be around a long time after its forgotten.
Bit simplistic,ICAO/IATA are just standards,doesn't confer rights to do anything e.g. overflight.
Whilst licences & approvals won't fall off a cliff,all other rights (if a hard BREXIT occurrs) will lapse. The UK has no Bilateral agreements governing flight freedoms/open skies,they are all via the EU.
We can't even enter into negotiations,in theory all aircraft with a G on the tail,the day after a hard Brexit wouldn't have a lot of choice of European destinations!
toolboxstickers
13th Feb 2018, 22:40
So that's thousands of European airport workers out of a job then. I'm sure the French/ Italian/ Spanish etc. unions won't mind...........
NutLoose
13th Feb 2018, 23:10
Whilst licences & approvals won't fall off a cliff
You sure??
If you licence is an EASA one and we are no longer in EASA, then surely the licence will be void, rather like the Passports having to change too.
BluFin
14th Feb 2018, 09:13
If you are worried about retaining you European licence do a transfer of state now, you can exchange a UK part 66 for one in any other member state
(Apart from the LBA in Germany, who will come up with a reason not to if you dont tick one of the living /working/german reg aircraft boxes)
falcon12
14th Feb 2018, 13:06
I heard a rumour last month that the UK CAA have shut their Brexit office.
I also read that FR had made an AOC application late December for their local UK flights.
This is rumour network after all.
Currently living & registered in Europe with no immediate intention of returning to the UK so could be affected by this.
Does anyone have any real idea what is going to happen & are the CAA giving any info. Which country's licence do you recommend transferring to, might be able to swing the German as currently employed by German company only not in German.
Rigga
14th Feb 2018, 21:22
Exup,
The sense of panic being generated this thread is rapidly becoming the envy of the Sun and Daily Mail. No-one knows whats going on, even the CAA /EASA, and everyone is speculating...and some without thinking before shooting off.
Such as the mere thought of the CAA having enough room or resources to open/staff a "Brexit Office"!
woptb
14th Feb 2018, 23:13
Exup,
The sense of panic being generated this thread is rapidly becoming the envy of the Sun and Daily Mail. No-one knows whats going on, even the CAA /EASA, and everyone is speculating...and some without thinking before shooting off.
Such as the mere thought of the CAA having enough room or resources to open/staff a "Brexit Office"!. Indeedy ! The issue with the handling of Brexit,is that no one (least of all the government!)knows what comes next! PU’s & breweries springs to mind. If I were to opt for a 66 from another NAA, think I’d go with the IAA.
Cheers guys, Guess best to wait & see what's going to happen. Living this side of the channel there is even less info available, to be honest I don't think anybody is really interested in Brexit here, hardly ever mentioned.
Rigga
15th Feb 2018, 19:18
...to my knowledge, the Dutch AML was the easiest. You had to argue for a Limitation but invariably they gave a full licence.
Highway1
16th Feb 2018, 16:08
If the EU is not going to recognize Engineers and pilots Licences issued by the CAA then presumably they will also not recognize ATC Licences. Which then begs the question how do their airlines get to North America if they cannot fly through UK controlled airspace.
My 2 bob - Brexit will be a non-event and everyone will carry on as normal.
My 2 bob - Brexit will be a non-event and everyone will carry on as normal.
Don't your eyes get scratched raw when you bury your head in the sand like that?
PDR
Highway1
17th Feb 2018, 00:18
Don't your eyes get scratched raw when you bury your head in the sand like that?
PDR
LOL - sorry but just dont buy into all the hysteria. I'll leave that to others.
Alber Ratman
3rd Mar 2018, 09:47
Well May has opened her mouth on the subject. The UK Government wants the UK to remain in EASA and will pay for the privilage. I think this storm in a tea cup will be a simple one to put to bed. The rest of the mess will be another matter, but is not in the remit of this forum to mention any further.
Well May has opened her mouth on the subject. The UK Government wants the UK to remain in EASA and will pay for the privilage. I think this storm in a tea cup will be a simple one to put to bed. The rest of the mess will be another matter, but is not in the remit of this forum to mention any further.
Of course non-member states can be members of EASA, like currently Norway, Switzerland and Iceland. However, that requires amongst accepting EU rules especially the acceptance of the European Court as final authority. Which might be something of an issue.
Alber Ratman
4th Mar 2018, 19:57
Of course non-member states can be members of EASA, like currently Norway, Switzerland and Iceland. However, that requires amongst accepting EU rules especially the acceptance of the European Court as final authority. Which might be something of an issue.
Well the "have their cake and eat it" lot like Rees Mogg will have to put up with it. End of IMHO.
Tom Sawyer
11th Mar 2018, 03:49
Interesting thread going on here - https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/606299-us-offers-uk-inferior-open-skies-deal-ft.html .
Seems there is so much more involved than the "man on the street" was made aware of in the lead up to the referendum and is yet to realise, and we here are only looking at the aviation aspect on these forums. With Trump now going down the Tariff route on steel/aluminium, which the EU are trying to get exemptions from or impose their own tariffs, the UK would have to negotiate it's own exemptions or impose damaging tariffs of their own come this time next year. Going on the article linked, if the US is going to play hard ball on bi-lateral air agreements, every other EU agreement we currently have will face the same prospect.
I guess over nearly 40 years of involvement with the EU, there is so much more to it than just a plain in or out question, and with just over a year to go, we still do not know how this is going to shape up for for any of us as the current Government cannot seem to settle on what it is they actually want before they decide what is the best outcome for the country.
Heathrow Harry
11th Mar 2018, 08:33
The man on the street was told it would be bloody complicated but didn't want to know
Highway1
11th Mar 2018, 12:40
So we remain in EASA and everything carries on as it was before - so much for burying my head in the sand ;)
Rigga
11th Mar 2018, 19:50
Its taken 40 years, as Tom Sawyer says, for UK to get into the EU to this depth. In my estimation, it will take almost as long to unravel the mess. But, for the very start of this process, the UK must adopt each and every rule that we currently work to and gradually change what we can - when it NEEDS to be done.
The only immediate change in May 19 should be the cessation of payments to fund EU projects (not involving UK). The rest can be done at a slower rate...because they will be OUR laws. UK should not be in a rush to accept EU demands and diktats. They need our money like the majority of UK needs it freedom.
Alber Ratman
11th Mar 2018, 22:17
Its taken 40 years, as Tom Sawyer says, for UK to get into the EU to this depth. In my estimation, it will take almost as long to unravel the mess. But, for the very start of this process, the UK must adopt each and every rule that we currently work to and gradually change what we can - when it NEEDS to be done.
The only immediate change in May 19 should be the cessation of payments to fund EU projects (not involving UK). The rest can be done at a slower rate...because they will be OUR laws. UK should not be in a rush to accept EU demands and diktats. They need our money like the majority of UK needs it freedom.
I suspect our local airport will be a ghost town with a hard Brexit. Can you see the major player staying there if tarriffs are involved? I think not. Only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Doesn't bother me as I do not work for them.
Rigga
15th Mar 2018, 18:48
...and the door could then open for a new venture!
Alber Ratman
17th Mar 2018, 22:35
...and the door could then open for a new venture!
Who knows. ATCL is now 2Excel at Gasham, but SEN stayed dead.
easaman
20th Mar 2018, 17:04
We got an extension till end of 2020!
Here is the link to the regulations in case of a hard BREXIT
ECAA (European Common Aviation Area) (https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/international_aviation/external_aviation_policy/neighbourhood_en)
easaman
Rigga
20th Mar 2018, 20:52
So, another two years of trying to work out how to ease the disconnection of the CAA from EASA or, as EASA has a larger membership than the EU, EASA from the EU.
Alber Ratman
13th Apr 2018, 22:42
So, another two years of trying to work out how to ease the disconnection of the CAA from EASA or, as EASA has a larger membership than the EU, EASA from the EU.
Or Old Skool BCAR Section L guys to decide if they are going to record the torque wrench used or not.. Or use a torque wrench at all! (as the clamp they have overtorqued shears off in front of one. "Should have used the torque wrench I was suggesting!":E)
Rigga
15th Apr 2018, 21:22
...still trying to figure out what that statement says/means!?!?!?
woptb
19th Apr 2018, 09:47
We got an extension till end of 2020!
Here is the link to the regulations in case of a hard BREXIT
ECAA (European Common Aviation Area) (https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/international_aviation/external_aviation_policy/neighbourhood_en)
easaman
To be honest,sounds promising,but what will “gradual opening of markets”, mean to a former member of the EASA club? Hopefully we’ll remain members, in some form & all our musings will be moot!
easaman
19th Apr 2018, 18:33
To be honest,sounds promising,but what will “gradual opening of markets”, mean to a former member of the EASA club? Hopefully we’ll remain members, in some form & all our musings will be moot!
I doubt that BREXIT will happen. The Theresa MayBe Government still has no idea how to handle the BREXIT, besides the costs of Zillions of GBP . They were really happy to change the subject in the media recently. When I think how weak the governments reactions were when Russia snatched the Crimea, and now for a former spy, all that fuss....
I just think about customs in Dover, and when the queue of lorries is on the motorway up to the Midlands to exchange parts between RR, the car-makers, etc. between the Continent and GB.
Europe has also got its DREAMERS
BluFin
20th Apr 2018, 18:46
updated releases, read all 3 of the links first before you go bashing away at the keyboard.
https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations
Notice to stake holders
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf
UK CAA Release
https://www.caa.co.uk/Our-work/Newsroom/Hot-topics/
If as published I guess this would also apply to modules and type training so you might want to think where you should sit the exam if you want a part 66
after next march.