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Effluent Man
26th Jan 2018, 08:57
I gave this a watch because the subject was a Mini Cooper S, same vintage and same colours, apart from mine had a white roof. The seller admitted to re-shelling the car, understandable as a lot of original ones have rotted away.

However it was much more than just a re-shell. I noticed the ignition was on the steering column and had large plastic ended keys, something characteristic of 80's cars. The original MkIi's had it centrally under the speedo. It also had what appeared to be the original 80's arch flares. All in all not really a Cooper S.

Come the end he flogged it to an expert, who I would have thought would have raised these issues when negotiating a price. Instead we got the old Wheeler Dealers nonsense. "Give me £11,995". "I'll give you eleven grand". "How about eleven and a half?". "Ok".

Now I know there are constraints of time, but when I started dealing we had cutting the cards, tossing of coins, in one case even a running race from this chaps forecourt for a fifty bob dispute. I won btw, but I was ten years younger than him. I think it was the fact that I was four stone heavier than him that gave him courage.

spekesoftly
26th Jan 2018, 09:30
All in all not really a Cooper S.

Agreed. I also spotted just a single carburettor under the bonnet. An original Cooper S had twin SUs.

VP959
26th Jan 2018, 10:49
I owned a 1965 ("D" reg) 1275cc Cooper S for a time, the twin tank version. Even re-shelling wouldn't be easy, as Cooper S shells were not the same as an ordinary Mini shell, they were reinforced in several areas in order to better withstand the rigours of motor sport, or at least all the early ones were.

There were a lot of subtle and not so subtle differences between an S and any other Mini, or even a Mini Cooper. As above, then came with twin SUs and the ignition key was in the dash centre. Even the inner front wings were different on the S, with both being reinforced and the nearside one having larger holes cut in it to match the larger radiator that was fitted as standard. Even then cooling was marginal when driven hard.

To be honest, although the car was reasonably fast as standard, and handled well for it's day, it was pretty rough. Later versions of the Cooper S were watered down a fair bit, by having better trim, hydrolastic suspension (!) and gradually got heavier, but a bit more civilised.

I doubt a true collector would be interested in a car that had been heavily modified from standard spec, unless all the mods were genuine BMC Special Tuning Dept ones. I still have the BMC ST catalogue sat here from 1967, listing all the tuning options available, and there were a lot of them. My own car ended up being bored to 1293cc (the max allowable to stay within the then under 1300cc club racing class) fitted with a much modified head, 45 Weber, usually a 649 cam (depending on event, sometimes I used the torquier 731 cam) lightweight steel flywheel, centre main bearing brace, uprated oil pump and bigger oil cooler, bigger radiator and 6.5" wide rims, normally running Goodyear Rally Specials, with most of the tread ground off (this was to remain compliant with "road car" club racing events). The gearbox was a Jack Knight straight cut dog engagement one, the clutch was the BMC ST "hard" one, with, I think, the red spring (more or less just on/off). The drop gears were replaced with the BMC ST straight cut set. The gears made more noise than anything else - you could hear the gear whine long before you heard either the intake roar or the exhaust noise.

The suspension trumpets were replaced with Hi-Los, to allow for ride height adjustment, and BMC ST bigger bump stops were fitted, along with Spax adjustable shock absorbers

I suspect that, even in that highly modified state, it would still be collectable today, as all the mods were ones that were approved by BMC ST, I think.

RedhillPhil
26th Jan 2018, 14:44
It's a television show. Are you expecting accuracy?

treadigraph
26th Jan 2018, 15:03
It would be nice occasionally! :ok:

Effluent Man
26th Jan 2018, 15:24
It's a television show. Are you expecting accuracy?

Not entirely no. But would it be detrimental in any way to said show were a but of honesty put into it ? The little car was perfectly serviceable and presentable, but it wasn't a Mini Cooper S. I didn't notice the single carburettor. Somebody obviously went to considerable trouble fitting twin tanks in an attempt to convince people that it was a genuine S.

I suspect that they had some Cooper S bits and decided to fake up an 80's Mini as the real thing. Probably ok at five grand but no way someone in the trade ( and the know) would part with £11,500.

Loose rivets
26th Jan 2018, 15:52
It's more than I'd get for my super 6 Series twin turbo megga-blaster - unmarked (touch wood) and with head up display.

I know people like nostalgia, but I've bounced my way thousands of miles in Mini's and frankly they're fun, but when you stop laughing, they're a tiny tin box that happens to know how to corner - in a bouncy kind of way.

chuks
26th Jan 2018, 19:12
John Lennon had a Honda Monkey Bike (or whatever it is properly called). It's just come up for sale ... twice.

I have a brother-in-law who got into classic cars once he'd got rich the first time. We went to a classic car dealer where he showed me his Ferrari Testa Rossa (the original sort, not the later one with the boxer engine). I leaned over and looked into the engine bay at a nice, neat row of pop rivets where one would expect to see normal rivets. I think what he had been sold was an old chassis that someone had built a replica body for, nice but not actually a Testa Rossa. I did not say anything about that, of course.

Another time a German was showing me his BMW R90S. I happened to own one, so it was clear that this thing was just a tarted-up old R100S made to look like an R90S. I just said "Oh, very nice," and left it at that.

vapilot2004
26th Jan 2018, 23:39
At a track not far from home, a red Geo Metro is often seen parked sporting a Ferrari badge. It gets the occasional glance and even the odd picture taker comes along, thinking they have discovered something new.

MungoP
27th Jan 2018, 05:22
I suspect that they had some Cooper S bits and decided to fake up an 80's Mini as the real thing. Probably ok at five grand but no way someone in the trade ( and the know) would part with £11,500.

Am I missing something here..? A genuine 60s 'S' in decent condition would be on the market for between 50 and 60k.

Effluent Man
27th Jan 2018, 07:10
There is currently a genuine 22,000 mile car on offer at £39,995. To make 50+ I think it would need to be one with impeccable provenance and a notable history. There are genuine examples advertised for £15,000. I suppose it depends on your definition of decent, but five grand was the money for that mongrel.

The car featured in this programme really was a hotch potch of different eras. The single SU means that the engine could even have come from an Allegro. The 1275cc A series was used in virtually every small BMC car throughout the 70's and 80's. I am just surprised that this wasn't highlighted in the show.

On a wider pont there have been several of these kind of shows that lead the gullible to believe that car dealing is easy money. It's true that at one time it was, I made a very good living in the trade from 1977 until 2013. Since then the auctions have been crammed with private buyers looking to make a fast buck. This has meant that the function of auctions has changed. They now represent a way for the trade to dispose of cars with serious and expensive problems.

VP959
27th Jan 2018, 07:24
There's also a massive difference between the 1275cc A series used widely, and the 1275cc A series in the later Cooper S models. They had a different head casting, different valves, different cam, different (nitrided) crank, different flywheel, different clutch, different water pump, different oil pump, different cooling around the cylinders, even the bolts used in the big and and main bearings were different.

If you know the casting numbers is dead easy to tell the difference between the two, but the bottom line is that there is no way you can tune an ordinary 1275cc A series in the same way - it would need a lot of replacement parts from a genuine Cooper S (or BMC ST replacements) and even then it would be as unreliable as hell.

Just finding an EN40B crank in good enough condition to use, or grind and re-nitride, would be a pretty tough challenge, I think, let alone all the other Cooper S bits needed. They never made many of these cars and an awful lot of them, like mine, ended up being used for motor sport, so finding a road going one that hasn't been messed about with wouldn't be easy. Add in that the S had less underbody anti corrosion treatment than even the standard Mini, to keep the weight down, and any that are still around will have had to have had a lot of extensive corrosion repairs (the usual, cills, rear subframe, rear subframe mounts, front floor pan, front wings etc).

Krystal n chips
27th Jan 2018, 07:59
There is currently a genuine 22,000 mile car on offer at £39,995. To make 50+ I think it would need to be one with impeccable provenance and a notable history. There are genuine examples advertised for £15,000. I suppose it depends on your definition of decent, but five grand was the money for that mongrel.

The car featured in this programme really was a hotch potch of different eras. The single SU means that the engine could even have come from an Allegro. The 1275cc A series was used in virtually every small BMC car throughout the 70's and 80's. I am just surprised that this wasn't highlighted in the show.

On a wider pont there have been several of these kind of shows that lead the gullible to believe that car dealing is easy money. It's true that at one time it was, I made a very good living in the trade from 1977 until 2013. Since then the auctions have been crammed with private buyers looking to make a fast buck. This has meant that the function of auctions has changed. They now represent a way for the trade to dispose of cars with serious and expensive problems.

Watched this last night as it was, not unsurprisingly, repeated.


To be honest it had more to do with the self promotion of Drew Prichard than it did the car and the spec which is no surprise as "Salvage Hunters " has become an established slot on " Quest " and, to be honest, interesting though the programme can be, there's only so much Drew Pritchard you can watch before, well, you change channels....rapidly.

KnC formerly the proud owner of yer bog standard Mini Clubman estate complete with moss on the woodwork, an indicator stalk that only illuminated inside when it was damp, floor dip switch and comfortable bed space after bumbling around Snowdonia on ones feet at times.

Blues&twos
27th Jan 2018, 08:50
KnC - your Mini Clubman estate experience sounds almost identical to mine, except, in addition to thr ubiquitous moss, I also had a small colony of woodlice living under the permanently-wet passenger footwell carpet and some sort of beige mushroom-like fungus growing on the driver's side carpet.
I tried sleeping in the back of mine once to save money on a bed & breakfast, but I had to have the back doors open. It was freezing.

KelvinD
27th Jan 2018, 09:05
K&C: It would appear we have the same view on Taffy Pritchard. I have found of late that an appearance by him on my telly causes the finger to twitch on the remote control.
As for the Mini Cooper S; my son has a recent model and it is a money pit. Mind you, both my brother and nephew drive 500 series BMWs and they too are money pits. Common theme there?
Meanwhile, referring to Effluent Man's post re auctions: I recently decided it was about time I replaced the Citroen C5 I had written off. (A great car, despite it being French!). I have been driving around in my son's other car (the one he keeps for use when the bloody mini is having a tantrum), an old Fiat Punto which he picked up for a couple of hundred quid. A scruffy but totally reliable car. I decided I didn't need an expensive car (couldn't afford one anyway!) but something small was ideal for my trips to Heathrow or Luton and the Punto had taught me that I could get there and back fine with a small car. I was talking about this with my brother when he told me of a colleague of his who has driven nothing by small Hyundai models for a few years. Travelling extensively around the UK with his work, his first i30 lasted for 4 years and he only had one problem with it. He had to replace the turbo after 150,000 miles. He eventually sold it with 240,000 on the clock.
So I began looking at these and after a bunch of ne'er do wells in Oldham tried to flog me a very good looking i20 and I spotted signs of a blown head gasket, I found one on t'internet 4 years old, only 75K on the clock and only £2K. I looked at it and told the dealer "give me that one". Aah! A problem Sir. That one is for trade and shouldn't have been advertised on our web site. But it was so I will exchange 2,000 of my beer coupons, you give me the keys and we will stay friends. When he explained it was "company policy" to send trade-ins, as was this one, to the auctions, I argued the company won't get the full £2K after the cost of getting it to auction, BCA taking their cut etc, so why not cut out all the bother. We agreed on £2,350 and I am now a happy chappy, thrilled at the prospect of paying only £30 per year in road tax!

matkat
27th Jan 2018, 09:25
At a track not far from home, a red Geo Metro is often seen parked sporting a Ferrari badge. It gets the occasional glance and even the odd picture taker comes along, thinking they have discovered something new.
Chester perhaps?

VP959
27th Jan 2018, 10:31
Sorry for being a smartarse... but
a 1965 would be ''C'' reg, not D.

Definitely a "D" reg. Just checked an old photo taken at Brands Hatch at an event in the summer of 1975 and it was KLC 217 D

chevvron
27th Jan 2018, 10:45
Agreed. I also spotted just a single carburettor under the bonnet. An original Cooper S had twin SUs.
The single SU 1275 engine was standard in the later (1975) mini with the extended bonnet; had a special name Clubman 1275 GT I think.

VP959
27th Jan 2018, 11:00
The single SU 1275 engine was standard in the later (1975) mini with the extended bonnet; had a special name Clubman 1275 GT I think.

Yes, the Clubman 1275GT had a single 1 1/2" SU with a Y shaped inlet manifold and a cast 3 into 1 exhaust manifold.

This was essentially a very different 1275cc engine to the Cooper S, with a different head, cam, crank, crankcase, gearbox etc, etc. The 1275cc Cooper S engine had evolved from the 999cc and 1071cc competition A series engines.

The Cooper S came as standard with twin 1 1/4" SUs, plus a steel fabricated long centre branch exhaust manifold that was a fair bit more efficient.

There were few common parts in the engine and gearbox between the 1275cc Cooper S and the 1275GT, as the latter engine had a different derivation (IIRC, it was essentially a bored out Morris/Austin 1100 engine, and shared a lot of parts with the 1100 series cars).

RedhillPhil
27th Jan 2018, 11:01
Watched this last night as it was, not unsurprisingly, repeated.


To be honest it had more to do with the self promotion of Drew Prichard than it did the car and the spec which is no surprise as "Salvage Hunters " has become an established slot on " Quest " and, to be honest, interesting though the programme can be, there's only so much Drew Pritchard you can watch before, well, you change channels....rapidly.

KnC formerly the proud owner of yer bog standard Mini Clubman estate complete with moss on the woodwork, an indicator stalk that only illuminated inside when it was damp, floor dip switch and comfortable bed space after bumbling around Snowdonia on ones feet at times.


Got it in one:ok:

gruntie
27th Jan 2018, 11:30
Sorry for being a smartarse... but
a 1965 would be ''C'' reg, not D.

Sorry, but he’s right: the reg year ran from Jan to Dec at the time, the short one was ‘E’ which ran from Jan 67 to July 67 after the SMMT or someone complained that they couldn’t deal with the peak in sales at Xmas time.

Also think that BMC’s model year ran from Sep to Aug, so if it was a 65 must have sat unsold/unregistered for a while. But maybe cars like that did then.

VP959
27th Jan 2018, 11:38
Sorry, but he’s right: the reg year ran from Jan to Dec at the time, the short one was ‘E’ which ran from Jan 67 to July 67 after the SMMT or someone complained that they couldn’t deal with the peak in sales at Xmas time.

Also think that BMC’s model year ran from Sep to Aug, so if it was a 65 must have sat unsold/unregistered for a while. But maybe cars like that did then.

It could well have been a 1966 car, TBH, I just always thought it was a 65, because there were some changes made to the Cooper S between 65 and 66, and the car was to the 65 spec, with the then optional extra tank fitted. I think the latter was one giveaway, as I don't think they started fitting twin tanks as standard to the Cooper S until around 1966, and the paperwork for the car mentioned the "optional twin tanks".

The car had a shady history, as it was acquired from a hire purchase company as a default sale, at a pretty good price at the time. It had all the original purchase documents, but no service history, presumably because it had been repossessed from the owner who couldn't keep up the payments.

Effluent Man
27th Jan 2018, 12:45
Facelifts and upgrades as well as new models traditionally came in October because the Earl's Court motor show took place in the autumn so any new models were showcased at what really amounted to the world 's premier motor trade event. It's likely that a "C" registered Cooper S would have been a '66 model if registered for the first time after October. Btw I do agree with previous posters about young Drew's propensity to irritate.

On the subject of new cars sitting unsold, a couple of years ago I bought a Triumph Spitfire with an X registration. The seller told me how his uncle had walked past the showroom in Leicester for a year with the car on display before eventually cutting a deal with the garage. When I checked the chassis number it was still a couple of thousand from the end of the model run.

chevvron
28th Jan 2018, 09:59
On the subject of new cars sitting unsold, a couple of years ago I bought a Triumph Spitfire with an X registration. The seller told me how his uncle had walked past the showroom in Leicester for a year with the car on display before eventually cutting a deal with the garage. When I checked the chassis number it was still a couple of thousand from the end of the model run.

Not new but still a bargain.
My present POLO Moda 70 was registered in Oct 2010 and I got it in Apr 2012 with just over 1500 miles on the clock.
Apparently the first owner was an OAP who died and his widow didn't drive so left the car standing for some time until her solicitor sold it to the dealer.

Effluent Man
31st Jan 2018, 21:01
This weeks deliberate ? mistakes. We are told it's a 1969 Jaguar Mark 2. Well the Mk2 ceased production in 1967 and was replaced by the 340. It looked the same on the outside but in order to reduce the price, corners were cut allegedly due to competition from the Rover 2000 TC. This car was an 'F' reg, so a 67/68 according to the plate. Can they get anything right?