Ezy Crewing, Working 12 hrs without break [Archive]

canberra

21st Jul 2002, 15:16

fomere2eternity i must have been in a different air force to you! the longest shift i ever did was 15 hours. though when i was on the harrier force i slept in the ops wagon and often got woken in the wee small hours, but 36 hours on duty, bit excessive wouldnt u say? and as for 12 hours without a break well whos faults that? i dont think stelios expects u to die for him so take breaks, if people get annoyed with you for doing do well tell them why. why do airlines have this mania for 12 hour shifts?

Chilli Monster

21st Jul 2002, 16:23

canb

Ahh - those delightful nights under the stars in the FWOC wagon. Never did get the hang of sleeping on those b****y chairs :D

CM

EAZYCHICK

21st Jul 2002, 19:07

yes 12 hours may be the norm in the aviation industry but when you are short staffed it is almost impossible to take a break of any kind, because if you do you come back to twice the work, having lost the plot to all the disruption thats happened in your absence. Can't see the situation improving until the go-merger when the new structure will give an indication as to how much man power/resource is required. Hopefully then there'll be a new shift pattern, preferably 8 hours with enough experienced staff to manage the fast expanding fleet..... Lets hope there'll be light at the end of the tunnel yankee charlie.

FOMere2eternity

21st Jul 2002, 19:52

...was that a hint there might be jobs !

HELP - I'm here in the tower with the mask on !

:confused:

VP8

21st Jul 2002, 20:52

Could be!!!

Air Foyle Heavylift have just lost one of the ops guys on the AN124 side.....

VEEPS;)

VIKING9

21st Jul 2002, 22:07

Hey Veeps, has the salary dropped yet again to below £17k ;)

VP8

21st Jul 2002, 22:20

Hey Viking long time no here.

Nah on the paydrop although there is a disparity between various bods which needs seeing to or there may be a lot more vacancies!!

Watch this space.

VEEPS ;)

walla

21st Jul 2002, 23:08

winge winge winge winge winge

I dont think morale is at an all time low at ezy crewing, okay we are under staffed and under pressure but hey welcome to aviation.

Not taking a break on a 12 hour shift is your own fault not the management.
Okay so you may come back to more problems, however if you dont do it the management will not listen.

As for changing from 12h shift pattern to 8h shift pattern no thanks, i like my days off.

mmm jc who could you be ?:D :p :D :p

OPS GIMP

21st Jul 2002, 23:11

INTERESTING POST

I AM CURIOUS ABOUT
HOW MANY CREWING CONTROLLERS PER CREW MEMBERS ?

I CURRENTLY WORK FOR A CHARTER AIRLINE AND WE CONTROL JUST OVER 350 CREW PER 1 CONTOLLER ON SHIFT. IN THE MIDDLE OF A VERY BUSY SUMMER SEASON. OOPS FORGOT TO SAY ON WRITTEN ROSTERS. SO 12 HOUR+ SHIFTS A NORM WITHOUT BREAKS.
WHATS STAFF LEVELS LIKE IN YOUR AIRLINE?
:eek:

VIKING9

21st Jul 2002, 23:18

OPS GIMP So, who do you work for then :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hey Walla, who the hell is No Sig :cool:

ezydruid

21st Jul 2002, 23:22

Walla me'ol

Stop talking out'a what u ought to be sitting on.:D

Morale's lower than a rattlesnake's bits right now,
and has been for some time.
Not sure whether the merger will improve things,
but it sure as hell can't get any worse
(OR CAN IT??);)

As for the "don't worry about taking breaks, just do it" attitude,
fully agree.

Problem is, to quote the immortal bard,

"It's hard to look for repellant when yr up to yr bits in alligators!"

Plus the fact that the pressure exerted from various heights on those who DO take breaks makes everyone feel kinda guilty.

Always remember "Slice a vein, and they'll want an armful"

OPS GIMP

21st Jul 2002, 23:40

COUPLE OF HINTS IN MY POST

CHARTER AIRLINE AND BOURNEMOUTH

ezydruid

21st Jul 2002, 23:42

Hey Ops Gimp.

Was yr grandad Merlin???:D

VIKING9

21st Jul 2002, 23:44

Laugh - I nearly cried :D

Hey Walla, are you on the same planet as the rest or are they all stressed out and you ain't :o

3 Off The Tee

22nd Jul 2002, 00:30

Over here in the Land in the Sand, it's 12 hour shifts too,
2day, 2nights & 4 days off rotation.

I can't remember of ever having a proper break but
you simply can't beat having 4 days off.

Work hard, play hard & there's no better place than right here
if any of you guys want a new challenge?

Hope things improve for you EZY guys !

Cheers 3 Off The Tee :rolleyes:

walla

22nd Jul 2002, 01:54

viking 9,

can't mention names for obvious reasons,however, he holds the same post as you did in our last company.

As for the planet, we are all on mars.
I don't find it stressfull here sometimes under pressure but its all good character building stuff .:)

OPsgimp,
one controller and one officer to oversee all ezy brit and swiss crews.

ezydruid,

You are probably aware of the saying "sympathy is in the dictionary between sh*t and Syphilis"

Airbob2k,
You are quiet, hows life at that up and coming airline in BIG...NOT

VIKING9

22nd Jul 2002, 03:11

walla

Ah ha, I know who you mean. Send me a private message, I have some gossip for ya.......:rolleyes:

Opsmonkey

22nd Jul 2002, 06:54

hey walla sounds as if you are still having fun apart from all that nag nag nag who needs breaks anyway .

hey viking 9 how goes it :D

VIKING9

22nd Jul 2002, 07:36

opsmonkey Do I know you by chance ? Walla must ahve been on nights last night - it's gone quiet :D

marlowe

22nd Jul 2002, 19:03

whats a crewing dept? come and work for BA citiexpress and then your crewing problems will seem insignificant and trivial.

ezydruid

23rd Jul 2002, 03:13

Swap u any time Marlowe.

U try juggling 271 flts a day, crew patterns that
have more in common with the landscape of the Somme, or Emmental cheese than an attempt to run an airline, and a management whose orbital path only intersects with that of
good old Mother Earth once in a lifetime.

After that, crawling over broken glass would seem like fun.

:(

marlowe

23rd Jul 2002, 06:36

Eazydruid we have a crewing dept that looks at a map of europe spots BRISTOL on the map then finds FRANKFURT, thinks well its only six inches or so on the map lets get a crew to DRIVE there and allow 3 hours to do it! They even asked a crew to DRIVE from jersey to Guernsey and this is a crewing dept based on an island!

VIKING9

23rd Jul 2002, 07:02

ah memories of crewing.... I once overheard a new crewing girl tell a new hostie "yep that's it, LGW-BAH then taxi back" - the odd thing is, the hostie believed her :eek: No wonder the white tops are moving to Germany.......;)

paperpusher

23rd Jul 2002, 09:01

ezydruid,
168 flts STN,EMA,BRS,GLA,EDI 27 B737
1 crewing officer, 12 hr shifts no problems with crew communication, if crewing wants a break Ops can help out for a while.
our crewing patterns a little more solid and cohesive than yours (but that might change) and as for management, well its been ok, but, again that may change.
Good luck to us all in the future, we'll probably need it.
Rgds PP

VIKING9

23rd Jul 2002, 10:13

I can see it all changing - for the worse......... I wish you Go guys and gals all the best.:rolleyes:

paperpusher

23rd Jul 2002, 11:26

Hell VIKING9
it's only what you make it. onward and upwards, and lots of alcohol thats my format for a good shift.
Rgds PP

VIKING9

23rd Jul 2002, 12:22

paperpusher

what if you don't drink !!!!! Crewing ain't stressfull anyway, it's mind over matter. Keep ahead of the problem, stay calm and plan your day as best as you can. If all else fails SCREAM !!!! :D

paperpusher

23rd Jul 2002, 12:32

Viking9
your right, mind over matter, I dont mind, and the rest don't matter, if all else fails, yes scream..
Seriously your post is right stay calm, keep your mind focused and with a little help from the team around you you'll get through.
Rgds PP

Mr Angry from Purley

23rd Jul 2002, 19:42

Paperpusher

That's a first, Ops answering a crewing phone!.. Frequently i've answered the Ops phone when they are all asleep on nights and Crewing still working but vice versa - no chance...

Marlowe - heard that Chity Bang Bang Express is that bad, so ezydruid you might want to stay where you are...

:mad: :mad:

ezydruid

23rd Jul 2002, 23:27

Paperpusher.
Ref future: Amen to that.
Must get "unofficial night out arranged soonest for
both "teams".

Ref Crewing schedules : I could comment, but then someone
would have to shoot me:D

Seriously though, yr comments just prove that it can work
when the "coal face team" is given half a chance.

Finally:
Mr Angry.
Wind yr neck in. There are some who spend more time answering the crewing phones than covering their own jobs.
I'm sure that if positions were reversed, they'd bail yr rear out of the flames without a second thought.:p

Fly_146

23rd Jul 2002, 23:59

Ops asleep on night shift - gasp - never! :D

paperpusher

24th Jul 2002, 06:17

Leave it the workers and we will get along fine...
I did have a conversation with an Ops guy about 3/4 weeks back about a social, I e-mailed our lot, all up for it, sent some dates back but never got a reply. We'll be one and the same soon and with a bit of luck we will have a coming together party..
Rgds PP

Cheshire cat EGHH

25th Jul 2002, 08:32

Hello.

No offence to anyone, but I was unhappy with a position I had at a.. "bournemouth Charter" and I said something.. I am now in a postion that i fell a lot happier in.

Its never confortable to talk to higher mortals than yourself, but sometimes it has to be done!..

Management aren't mindreaders and yes "sometimes" they are actually busy to notice you being "unhappy".

Maybe if you lot focased some of your energy into talking to those higher beings instead of whinging on pprune(lets face it we all do) you might actually get what you are looking for, or at lest an answer which make you fell more "comfortable".

OPSGIMP... hmmm.. that takes a lot of thinking to know who you are! (shhh.. sectret safe with me)

BIG E

27th Jul 2002, 17:13

Cheshire

What if mismanagement are aware of the shortfalls and still nothing gets done,it gets to the point if now one else higher up the food chain gives a flying 4ork why should the plebs on the front line bust their balls to keep the operation running.

Cheshire cat EGHH

27th Jul 2002, 17:50

Well thats the privellages they get for being management, there are always things that appear "never getting done".

(i.e I still haven't got uniform 4 months after first ordering)

Thats just one of those facts of life!

You just have to nag and nag........... and if its effecting you as much as you say it is then make it your responsibility to ensure your boss doesn't "forget".

And dont bust your balls!!!! let them see you are struggling they wont realise otherwise.

Fiction

29th Jul 2002, 10:17

Hello Folks,

Aren't any of you Crewing People interested in working in the ME.

Advert was in Flight not so long ago for Scheduling Staff !!!!Very little response and idea why ????

Apply via the website of the airline concerned. :cool: :cool: :cool:

GWA

30th Jul 2002, 13:55

Fiction,
I may be interested, what company and what is the package, more details please .:) :confused:

brummie

30th Jul 2002, 17:19

BIG E

See ur still stressing ur balls out...... chill m8, we gota save our stress allowances for the M25 to STN......

BHX

3 Off The Tee

30th Jul 2002, 23:26

GWA,

Drop me a line, I can give you some info

Cheers 3 Off The Tee :rolleyes:

Flashgit

5th Aug 2002, 11:21

Hey Walla

Shouldnt that be

"Whinge whinge whinge...."

or are you talking about something else....

94063

5th Aug 2002, 16:13

if there are people out there thinking they want to work for easyJet take it from me...........YOU DON'T!!!!!

AOG007

5th Aug 2002, 22:20

Marlowe,

I know it must be difficult, but what you must understand is that your management (BRAL/MANX) whom were given the preferential treatment, and given the jobs they are unable to manage, are the cause of the problem.

Ops/Crewing should not have been placed on the Rock. It should have been moved to Manchester from day one. That way the good guys from both the Rock and from Plymouth would have wanted to move, therefore removing some of the deadwood. Now they only have the deadwood, and a small percentage of people from the two companies that actually care. From what I can gather these guys do try to get a break, but due to stupid time wasting proceedures set in place by the deadwood management, the crew controllers find it hard to take breaks due to the constant ringing of phones, and unrealistic targets set by the companies GM's.

As others have said in this post already, you have to manage your time in a pro-active manner, but it still comes down to way in which a department has been set up, which will determine it's ways of operating. From my contacts within BACX, this has not happened. This would appear to sound very similar to what is happening at Easyland, and sounds as though it will pass through to the new larger company when EZY/GOE become one.

Just guessing that you are a crew member, I can only ask that you give the guys on the Rock a bit of respect, because they are working under an incredible amount of pressure. It is being thrown at them from all angles, and it will take it toll.

This request can also be asked of any EZY crews that may be feeling annoyed/disheartened by your crewing department. They don't do the same jobs as yourselves, but just try and understand where they are coming from, and maybe you will all be able to build up relationships where there will always be a mutually beneficial outcome.

Fiction

6th Aug 2002, 08:52

I worked for years on 12 hr crewing shifts without a break. But then again I worked with a great team of Crewing and Ops people, and the aircrew where a great bunch as well, it was great fun and I enjoyed every minute of it, and we had the tightest UK operation imaginable.

Our rapport with crew was excellent, we understood their problems and they understood ours and the company really did benefit. Crew were always given as many personal requests as operationally possible to help with their disruptive lifestyle. And overall this arrangement worked very well when we had to call back the favours.

This great team of people has recently been torn apart by a recent merger, if only the current managemnt of this "new" airline realise what they have missed.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :o

3 Off The Tee

6th Aug 2002, 21:42

Could not agree more Fiction

SCARGILL1

7th Aug 2002, 10:48

:confused: :mad:
OPS/CREWING MORALE AND WORK PRACTICES IS SURELY ULTIMATELY IN THE HANDS OF THE MANAGEMENT, IF THEY ARE GOOD, IT IS GOOD IF THEY AREN'T IT ISNT?

walla

7th Aug 2002, 11:55

Flashgit,
Sorry you are correct , me speak good england don't you think.
Keep on smiling everyone, they can't make you pregnant. (or can they ? You decide

:D :eek:

RAT 5

25th Aug 2002, 20:55

Speaking on behalf of some pointed-end drivers, I'd be happy with 2 days ON, 2 nights ON, 4 OFF. It's a might sight better than 6 On 2 off 5 ON. etc. etc. The 6 ON being random day/night and forever changing, with only a couple of nights at home per week.Productivity would not be effetced, with efficient rostering. Everybody would be happier including the rosters, crewers and crews. Now there's a novel idea. It's what everybody wants, mutual happiness, yet somehow it is still a holy grail lost in the desert. Mysteries?

There was a studious report published a couple of years ago. The conclusion was that if crews wanted to achieve any kind of reasonable family life it was vital to remove absolute control of rostering from the rostering dept. It had to have crew input, and that does not mean management review afterwards to check the legality of it. CAP 371 is acknowledged by CAA as being an absolute limit and not a protection against fatigue without common sense use. Crews being treated like machines will break down. The a/c are better maintained than the crew. Crew get their repairs done on a 'life' basis (CAP 371), not 'on condition'. If the latter were true in the present climate of work patterns, many crew would be in for various transplants and adrenelin implants.

Never forget, the crews have a long career in mind with an employer. Perhaps they have a deeper vested interest than anyone for a strong future. They are not about to milk the cow and kill the goose. Equally they do not thrive on sweat shop conditions, as does no-one else in the aviation chain. If pushed too hard they will break, leave and that has benfited nobody, least of all the company. A happy work force costs very little but is a valuable longterm investment that the bean counters can not put a price on, so ignore it.
Might aviation go the same route as teachers, doctors and nurses, police etc? Pushed too hard into a life style that is not worth it, so no one joins.

If only crews, crewers and rosters could get together, I'm sure they would all find they had a common goal and life would improve for everyone. Why not give it a try and remove the frictional atmosphere. It must be hell going to work a night shift knowing you are not going to enjoy it.

Good luck.

jumpseater

26th Aug 2002, 13:04

RAT 5 Re your last para I support fully your comments regarding groups getting together, there is a problem with actually making it happen. Its not just in this environment, when I worked in ATC and Airport ops, getting aircrew to come and see you for a chat was near on impossible, and I'm well aware that your lifestile rosters does'nt always allow that. We don't have a combined ops/crewing/crewroom, if we did that might help, we could see the face on the radio/phone if only for 5 mins which can help in building that core relationship between 'ops' and crews. If one or two more popped in on the way back to their cars after a duty, (I know, I know,) then perhaps that might help too!. We are no longer able to go for jumpseat rides, which I found particularly useful, and we are generally nailed to our desk for 12hrs, (we rarely get the opportunity to take an hour in the orangerie either!), recently with no breaks, and crewers have a far higher workload than many give credit for. We in ops have the bright ideas, ;) and then the crewers have to make sure it can happen, as well as dealing with the day to day crap they do.

It is hell going to work knowing you are not going to enjoy it, its not just night shifts either, of late its been groundhog day, same $hit, every day, come January there might just be tumbleweed blowing through ops at eJ if the situation doesn't change, and I don't think I'm alone with those feelings.

no sig

26th Aug 2002, 14:27

I've long been a supporter of a co-located crew report and Ops and agree with your sentiments Jumpseater. Once we know the location of the new Ops centre we'll know what we can do with regard to providing for the above. Hopefully, we find out this week.

paperpusher

26th Aug 2002, 18:28

Nosig, as you know here at your otherhalf's base of STN we have crew reporting at OPS, its very very helpful and it's something I hope we'll keep. I'm sure I'll meet you soon.
gds PP

no sig

26th Aug 2002, 20:24

paperpusher

Indeed we will. We have debated this issue for a long time and its simply the physical make up of LTN that precluded combined report and Ops.

Mr Angry from Purley

26th Aug 2002, 21:15

RAT5

There's also a common feeling with many Crewing / Rosterers /
Manager type folk that if you got rid of CAP371 and started again
you could (with crew input) come up with a better scheme to suit
all parties. CAP371 is about 10 years out of date, its still got a rule in there that was used when 757's started going transatlantic and stoped in Bangor for fuel...:mad:

paperpusher

26th Aug 2002, 22:01

Nosig, here's a thought, easyland (all of easyland) becomes
flt/grnd ops all combined, with crew brief also under the same roof.
all admin relocate to a new large HQ, you never know!
Rgds PP

GOBWX

27th Aug 2002, 03:04

seems to me that we all seem to have the same problem.....

i too get 12 hrs in a ops room trying to get around 500 flights off on time, beating those
slots for that on time departure, whilst filing and canx flight plans re routeing and issuing the paperwork for 80+ aircraft.. add jersey into the equasion on a saturday, and forget it it aint for the feint hearted all i get is to run to the loo every now and again eat at the desk....

i do sit and watch my crewing friends fight with 1500+ flight crew that never seem to want to work.... and beleve me my job is cushy compared to what they have to put up with...

am i complaing????? HELL NO!!!!!!
i enjoy my job and 12hrs sure as hell beets 9-5 :rolleyes:

so comon guys

it dosent really matter who we work for we all have good bits and we all have bad bits
(yes some more than others)

but as they say if you cant stand the heat....

WX

Whispering Giant

27th Aug 2002, 12:16

Just for your info - i work for an scheduled/weekend charter airline where our crewing controller's all do 12hr day and night shift's most of the time without a break - we only have 1 crewing controller on duty all the time !! and they are responsible for overseeing 680 crew operating from 11 bases from around the UK and France.

So it's not just EZY that have to do this......

no sig

27th Aug 2002, 13:32

paperpusher

watch this space, announcements on Friday I believe.

Grabber

27th Aug 2002, 13:35

Just wondering what the Easy Crewing staff are doing between midnight and 5am? When I worked for a Scheduled airline I know what I was doing, taking all of my breaks at once - in a sleeping bag under the desk?

I work 12 hours 4 on 4 off and yes the shifts can be busy, stressful and hectic but when you can take 4 days leave and have 12 days off or its a quiet day then everything is put into perspective.

Any airlines adopted an 8 hour shift scheme?

VIKING9

27th Aug 2002, 15:04

Grabber I reckon they would spend the night shift picking up the pieces from the previous day :D

Fiction

28th Aug 2002, 05:42

Talking of Crewing to crew ratios.

We have 3 Controllers on shift for just under 4,000 crew. This is only possible by the use of an IVR system (Interactive Voice Response). Crew self collect roster changes, and call for automatic delay information for flights.

The reduction in workload for the crew controllers is huge. Well worth looking into.....if the boss will listen. :cool: :cool: :cool:

Cheshire cat EGHH

28th Aug 2002, 09:39

Grabber ... Well isn't that a suprise!.

*************************************************

no sig

28th Aug 2002, 15:26

Fiction

What IVR system are you using?

lmso

29th Aug 2002, 18:39

is it any wonder walla that some of crewing aren't stressed at work.We can all be less stressed if we ignore the job that we are actually there for. I know of someone in that office who actually just picks up the phone then hangs up when they can't cope.I wonder who it could be............................................?:confused:

Fiction

31st Aug 2002, 04:39

NO SIG

This was developed inhouse with help from a UK software company who has experience in this field with other airlines.

There are many companies out there who can provide IVR systems, but you need to taylor them to your environment.

Once the initial shock has worn off by crew self collecting their roster changes, they will love it and so will crewing.

You almost have time to put your feet up !!!!

:cool: :cool: :cool: