BBC coverage of RAF 100 years

[Nige321]

BBC annonces RAF 100 coverage...
Here... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/mediapacks/history/raf?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_press_office&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=corporate)

[Rigga]

hhhmmmm...

[Basil]

Doesn't say when 'RAF at 100 with Ewan and Colin McGregor' will be broadcast.
(Real meaning: I'm too idle to look and hope someone knows ;) )

[Wander00]

Let's hope those doing the announcing - the other morning on the Breakfast programme we had "the Royal British Air Force" referred to

[Blacksheep]

I remember when one of our VC10s received fuel at Guam and the invoice came in for the "Royal British Air Force". It was sent back to the USAF as "not known at this address", with advice to submit it to the RBAF for payment.

[charliegolf]

I remember when one of our VC10s received fuel at Guam and the invoice came in for the "Royal British Air Force". It was sent back to the USAF as "not known at this address",

I was an aircrew cadet looking over the shoulder of a Herc skipper en route to Nellis in 1980. Ascot Radio call: this is ASCOT blah blah, good morning, I'd like to... etc
US ATC: What service are you sir?
Ascot: Royal Air Force.
ATC: Which Royal Air Force Sir?
Ascot: THE Royal Air Force, Ascot blah blah.
ATC: Roger that (though I'm sure he wasn't sure!)

Priceless exchange!

CG

[Riskman]

I'm sure the Baghdad Broadcasting Company will dwell on Dresden, the baby milk factories bombed in GW1 and many other examples it can twist into its warped worldview.

[pr00ne]

Oh dear!

And you have the rank hypocrisy to talk of warped world views after a post like that!

Geez.....

[SASless]

Some are quite happy with the Beeb's political viewpoint despite its lack of objectivity on most issues.

[Basil]

Some are quite happy with the Beeb's political viewpoint despite its lack of objectivity on most issues.
Yes, I'd agree.

[newt]

More important........where is the p...up and who is organising it?

[Rigga]

Newt, Now weem talkin'bout sommat impotent!

[Basil]

VG point, newt; huge p***up for BOFs with interviews.
"There I was with the windscreen all green and my instructor said . . . . "

[Mogwi]

I probably qualify as a BOF but there was no PU!

Off to polish me Tiger

[Mogwi]

Prog going out on 25th March, with write-up in Radio Times on 20th.

Just had a wonderful couple of hours with "Boy" Wellum but still no p-u!

Mog

[Tankertrashnav]

He lives in our area but I haven't seen him around recently. Glad to hear he is still going strong :ok:

[NutLoose]

Only the RAF could celebrate their anniversary three months late ;)

[Melchett01]

More important........where is the p...up and who is organising it?

Will there be nurses? 😉

[Crromwellman]

Will there be nurses? 😉

Presumably these will be the busloads from RAF Hospital Wegberg and Army BMHs various that were always promised to be coming to the dance/p-u

[Ogre]

I was an aircrew cadet looking over the shoulder of a Herc skipper en route to Nellis in 1980. Ascot Radio call: this is ASCOT blah blah, good morning, I'd like to... etc
US ATC: What service are you sir?
Ascot: Royal Air Force.
ATC: Which Royal Air Force Sir?
Ascot: THE Royal Air Force, Ascot blah blah.
ATC: Roger that (though I'm sure he wasn't sure!)

Priceless exchange!

CG

I had a similar discussion with a lady from another country who wanted some information from me. I had confessed that I had been trained in the use of firearms, so she wanted to know who by.

I responded "The Royal Air Force"
She asked "Which Royal Air Force"
My reply was "There is only one Royal Air Force"
"No" she stated, "every country that has a royal family has a Royal Air Force.."
I conceded that but pointed out "But the title gives an indication of the country of origin, Royal Netherlands Air Force, Royal Malaysian, Royal Norwegian, Royal Australian...."

She wasn't having it, so I had to give details of who's Royal Air Force and the who it belonged to. I was very tempted to list "Mrs Betty Windsor" but decided I needed her cooperation....

[ian16th]

Its like postage stamps, the UK was 1st, everybody else has to differentiate by putting their name on their stamps!

In this Internet age, with the USA being 1st, they are the only country without a country suffix.

[Percy Cute]

Or THE Open.

Are the girls from Lady Mabel's PE College invited?

[jindabyne]

More important........where is the p...up and who is organising it?

You mean you haven't received the invite yet? :{

[gijoe]

Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post

I was an aircrew cadet looking over the shoulder of a Herc skipper en route to Nellis in 1980. Ascot Radio call: this is ASCOT blah blah, good morning, I'd like to... etc
US ATC: What service are you sir?
Ascot: Royal Air Force.
ATC: Which Royal Air Force Sir?
Ascot: THE Royal Air Force, Ascot blah blah.
ATC: Roger that (though I'm sure he wasn't sure!)

Priceless exchange!

CG

I had a similar discussion with a lady from another country who wanted some information from me. I had confessed that I had been trained in the use of firearms, so she wanted to know who by.

I responded "The Royal Air Force"
She asked "Which Royal Air Force"
My reply was "There is only one Royal Air Force"
"No" she stated, "every country that has a royal family has a Royal Air Force.."
I conceded that but pointed out "But the title gives an indication of the country of origin, Royal Netherlands Air Force, Royal Malaysian, Royal Norwegian, Royal Australian...."

She wasn't having it, so I had to give details of who's Royal Air Force and the who it belonged to. I was very tempted to list "Mrs Betty Windsor" but decided I needed her cooperation....


Is there anyone in the RAF who doesn't think that they are funnier than everyone else and that the world is their stage?

It is no wonder that the military elements of the UK Armed Forces detest it.

[TURIN]

I wonder if the Royal Navy chaps get a similar response?

[brakedwell]

Royal Brexit Air Force, or should that be Farce.

[Finningley Boy]

So who's going to fly a Tiffy under the top spar of Tower Bridge?:ok:

FB:)

[Tankertrashnav]

It is no wonder that the military elements of the UK Armed Forces detest it.

I was under the impression that the RAF is one of the military elements of the UK armed forces.

Did you mean the Army Air Corps?

[Ogre]

Is there anyone in the RAF who doesn't think that they are funnier than everyone else and that the world is their stage?

It is no wonder that the military elements of the UK Armed Forces detest it.

gijoe, it's called pride in ones service old chap, we all like to show that we think it is the best. As for the rest of the UK armed forces, there is a tradition of not showing any respect for any of the other services to their faces, specifically when the public are present. However it is only a tradition because we have such a great respect for the other services in the UK, and we are engaging in a topic known as "banter". You can google that you know.

It's only the armed forces of the other countries that we slag off and really mean it....

[FantomZorbin]

Well said Ogre - you have it in a nutshell :D

[Mogwi]

25th March BBC1, 2030-2200. Prog not PU!

[BBadanov]

You mean you haven't received the invite yet? :{

Hey Jindy, that's a bit harsh, Newt is a vet you now!
I have sent him a photocopy of my invite...hope it arrives in time :rolleyes:

[Pontius]

I'm looking forward to the 500th anniversary of the RN. No television for the Senior Service; we're going to have the programs beamed directly to our brains. The nurses will be there as well, even if it is to change a bag or two. I've got my rum ready :-)

[glad rag]

Well said Ogre - you have it in a nutshell :D


Indeed, a quick look at "gi-who" shows no info and a history of bitter, bitter postings....

[Mogwi]

He lives in our area but I haven't seen him around recently. Glad to hear he is still going strong :ok:

Page 24/25 of this week's Radio Times.

Mog

[Lyneham Lad]

Reminder - recorders set - go!

BBC1 8.30pm Sunday 25th (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09xptsg)

[betty swallox]

Priceless...!

RAF at 100: The A-lister meets the heroes RAF at 100: The A-lister meets the heroes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43507357)

[Captain Capstan]

I know we are due to have a Royal Air Force 100 display at Oshkosh. Looking forward to it.

[phil9560]

Ewan McGregors brother is so wooden I could put him on the stove and heat the house for a week.

Credit to Ewan though-he keeps trying to get him a TV job.

[betty swallox]

I guess you’ve never met him then. He’s a fine geezer.

[phil9560]

I don't doubt it for a moment.Just not sure TV is the best medium for him.

[Alber Ratman]

Met Ewans brother as he used to drive one of my old lots SAAB 2Ks. Believe he now works for Robbie Lowe, someone else with BBC airtime (Enjoyed a fine evening talking to him and his delightful wife last year.)

[cessnapete]

I know we are due to have a Royal Air Force 100 display at Oshkosh. Looking forward to it.

Bet there will be no current RAF participation, all US based warbirds..

[Union Jack]

I wonder if the Royal Navy chaps get a similar response?

Have never ever had a problem - always perfectly understood!

Curiously enough the French Marine Nationale is known familiarly simply as "La Royale"

Jack

[westernhero]

Talking about the Chinook, " the Chinook has already been in service with the RAF for 50 years " ........right that will be an in service date of 1968 then...does no one proof read the scripts ?

[Harley Quinn]

Aside from the Chinook incident I thought it was very good.

[XV490]

Yep, and only four "iconics" uttered in the whole show.

[MAINJAFAD]

Maritime got forgotten again (though not having a maritime aircraft to exhibit in any shape or form was most likely the reason). Other than that (and the Chinook cock up on dates) not bad.

[XR219]

Talking about the Chinook, " the Chinook has already been in service with the RAF for 50 years " ........right that will be an in service date of 1968 then...does no one proof read the scripts ?
Well, if the original order for the Chinook hadn't been cancelled, it might have entered service in 1968... :hmm:

[Top West 50]

Not a single mention of the Red Arrows!

[Treble one]

A thoroughly enjoyable programme. At least we got a Hurricane fly-by during the bit on The Battle of Britain.


No two seaters about for dogfighting purposes of course.


A large Duxford representation on screen too, which was most pleasing.

[MAINJAFAD]

Well, if the original order for the Chinook hadn't been cancelled, it might have entered service in 1968... :hmm:

Yep, people are unaware that the RAF did order 30 odd in the mid 1960's and the order was cancelled at around about the same time as the F111K (shortage of dollars in the piggy bank was a big thing back then in weapons procurement for whoever was in power). Labour did however make up for it next time they were in office (thanks to an under-spend if memory serves).

[D120A]

Approaching the Voyager for refuelling would have been an ideal time to include a few clips of Valiant, Victor and VC-10 tankers and the AD types (Javelin, Lightning, Tornado) they supported in the air defence Cold War.

But it's easy to criticise and there must have been a few sighs of relief among the RAF community (there was one here) when the credits rolled.

[BEagle]

Given the available time, the scope of the programme and the fact that it was clearly aimed at the genpub, I thought it was pretty good really.

[Arfur Dent]

Great segment with Dave Linney and WW1 re-enactment boys. I thought both brothers were excellent and to end with both flying (in) the Typhoon was a wonderful moment for their Family albums.
Well done ( I too did some sums re the 50 years of Chinook)!!.

[Alber Ratman]

I fully concur with BEagles comments.. It showed the Royal Air Force as the organisation that Trenchard envisaged IMHO and the people that made the organisation. A SE5A, Spitfire, Lancaster, Vulcan, Chinnok, Typhoon are inanimate objects without the people.

[Rigga]

Love those Chinnoks!

[sangiovese.]

Very disappointed they didn't mention NMS, the fitness test, 6442 writing , OJARS, Beagle, SAR etc etc and 25 years + of air ops over Iraq, seems the last 30-40 years were a little light on content

Very glad the Chinook was mentioned though

Amazed at the 2 ATA Ladies and the number of types flown though, wow!

[brakedwell]

Inevitably it was more about the McGregor brothers than the Royal Air Force, but enjoyable anyway.

[CargoMatatu]

Yep, it did come across as a McGreggor family show.
And, being an ex-Loadie, I was disappointed that there wasn't anything much on Transport Command other than the Berlin airlift. What about the mighty Hercules and the A400M?

[AR1]

Is there anyone in the RAF who doesn't think that they are funnier than everyone else and that the world is their stage?

No. Next question.

[newt]

I thought the first half was good but then it missed out huge chunks of RAF history spending too much time on celebrity flying in a Typhoon! No mention of FEAF, NEAF or RAFG! Apart from the Vulcan, no mention of the Jet age and the Cold War! Very disappointing!!

[GeeRam]

I thought the first half was good but then it missed out huge chunks of RAF history spending too much time on celebrity flying in a Typhoon! No mention of FEAF, NEAF or RAFG! Apart from the Vulcan, no mention of the Jet age and the Cold War! Very disappointing!!

Indeed.

Could have spent a day filming at LPG at Brunty featuring the Q-shed etc., and a simulated scramble that they've done at Open days.....

No opportunity for any celeb participation in that though :rolleyes:

[roving]

It was well reviewed in the Telegraph and I enjoyed it too.

‘It’s going to be quite an adventure,” said Ewan McGregor at the outset of RAF at 100 with Ewan and Colin McGregor (BBC One) and you couldn’t help believing it. The introductory sequence had just held out the soul-stirring prospect of First World War biplanes in mock combat, a dogfight between a Spitfire and its Second World War arch-rival the Me  109, and a Cold War-era Vulcan bomber in flight.

It was all my Airfix-inspired childhood dreams made real, and the tantalising promise of an armchair ride in one of the world’s most advanced jet fighters as well. What I wasn’t anticipating was how moving this documentary, presented by the film star and his former RAF fighter-pilot brother, would be in parts.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2018/03/25/raf-100-bbc-one-review-soul-stirring-supersonic-ride-mcgregor/

[Chugalug2]

I too, Roving. Very glad to see the Hastings in the Airlift bit, a much overlooked but key aircraft of its time. Its successor, Fat Albert, conspicuous by its absence (or was that when I was putting the kettle on?).

[Onceapilot]

Superficial, not Super. :)

OAP

[ExRAFRadar]

I thought the first half was good but then it missed out huge chunks of RAF history spending too much time on celebrity flying in a Typhoon! No mention of FEAF, NEAF or RAFG! Apart from the Vulcan, no mention of the Jet age and the Cold War! Very disappointing!!

Agree totally.

RAFG and the Cold War should have got much more of a look in than just showing yet another Vulcan in it's deterrent role.

Very lightweight.

Did ground crew even get a mention? I'm sure some of them were involved in that little fracas 1939-45

[teeteringhead]

Yes - overall good for getting 100 years into 90 minutes. We will all have our favourite bits missing; mine were:

1. No between the wars "Imperial Policing"; obviously un-PC at present, but arguably kept the RAF going as an independant force.

2. Nothing on RAF contribution to Assault Gliders in WWII - 60% of gliders in the Rhine Crossing (and 60% of the casualties) were flown by RAF.

3. Despite talking to Martin Withers about the Vulcan, no mention of Black Buck - for it was he.

My favourite bits in it:

1. SOE Lysanders.

2. Unloading the Dak against the clock.

3. Mogwi's Falklands dit - and reminding us he was RAF at the time!

4. McHoot "only blowing the bl%%dy roof off" in Sierra Leone. Only 53 CGCs have been awarded, and his is the only RAF one to date.

Overall a good 8/10 - a pleasant surprise. BZ to BBC

[Tankertrashnav]

yep, people are unaware that the RAF did order 30 odd in the mid 1960's and the order was cancelled at around about the same time as the F111K

The Chinook was meant to be the replacement for the Belvedere. The order was cancelled in November 1967 just as the Belvedere was withdrawn. I remember a Belvedere pilot chum at Seletar who was gutted as he was looking forward to flying the Chinook, which was already carving a reputation for itself in Vietnam.

Who remembers the TV series called "Diamonds in the Sky" which was introduced by Julian Pettifer nearly 40 years ago? A superb history of civil aviation over seven 45 minute episodes, it had time to go into the sort of detail and coverage that RAF 100 obviously couldn't in 90 minutes. Too late now, but wouldn't a 6 part series on similar lines, but purely devoted to the RAF have been great? I don't suppose there is the money, or the inclination now, though, (nor many journalists of the calibre of Julian Pettifer).

[BEagle]

Tankertrashnav wrote:Who remembers the TV series called "Diamonds in the Sky" which was introduced by Julian Pettifer nearly 40 years ago?

I certainly do - in fact I also have the book which was first printed in 1979. But these days I doubt whether the BBC's policies would countenance something along similar lines for 100 years of the RAF, or whether the 'app-for-that' obsessed yoof of today would be particularly interested.

One of the best documentary series ever broadcast by the BBC was The Valiant Years, a not-to-be-missed compendium from Churchill's memoirs which had many of my generation glued to the screen in 1961! Would they broadcast it today? No - rubbish such as Strictly Come Dancing is about the zenith of the BBC's efforts....

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Accepting that we no longer have a kipper fleet, I was amazed and annoyed that Coastal didn't even get a mention. So the Air Force contributions to the U-Boat battles were of less important than the SOE taxi service? No SAR service nor ASR marine craft? Also, in the beginning, I heard no mention of the RNAS. My tinnitus may have let me miss it but the wife didn't clock it either. So the great unwashed probably now think that the RAF is just an Army mob that was given independence and, for 5 years of its 100, employed some jolly nice girls to ferry its aeroplanes around. Anyway, we did get the huggyfluff tut tuts for Dresden and the sanctimonious comment from the bloke who encouraged it. All in all, I'm unable to hoist a BZ for it.

[goudie]

Good in parts, I thought, but mostly what newt said.

[Evanelpus]

Who remembers the TV series called "Diamonds in the Sky"

Go to You Tube, most of the episodes are there.

[5aday]

Naff all to do with the RAF.
It was a program about a pair of scotsmen, one of whom
is a pilot. I eventually fell asleep.
I could write reams of "What about this and what about that?"
Even in my short time in the R.A.F., there was a whole host
of things that happened and none of it was mentioned.
We have recorded it but I don't think it will ever get replayed.
My wife thought it quite dull.

[Planemike]

Take it we both watched the same programme...??!!
One I watched was all about the Royal Air Force...

[falcon12]

They crammed a lot into the hour but I was disappointed that Fat Albert didn't get a mention, let alone even a picture! Considering some of the aspects they covered you would think that it would have figured in coverage of Transport Command and its successor.
Still as an ex Brat, it was nice to see the many shots of the roofs of Workshops when all you normally ever saw was the inside!

[Danny42C]

Frankly disappointed with BBC RAF Centenary programme last night. Had to ham it up instead of telling the story plain and simply; too emotional and dramatic, too much giggling and false bonhomie, clearly fixed on making a very serious story "entertainment" for a BBC1 audience.

[Percy Cute]

I agree with you. And, surprisingly, Newt.
Chop the 2 jocks and edit in some Pathe News, perfect.

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
Had to ham it up instead of telling the story plain and simply

Par for the course these days I'm afraid, Danny. Others have spoken of previous series that knocked this prog into a cocked hat, to which I would add "War in the Air". I used to watch it round our local Milk Bar (wot's that then?), which had a B&W single channel (Beeb) TV fixed half way up the wall. Took me 15 weeks to see them all, at tuppence ha'penny a pop (for the obligatory cuppa). Got me hooked tho, I joined up five years later. :ok:

Still showing on a YouTube near you!

[jindabyne]

I agree with you Newt; and too McGregor centric.

If, as Beags mentioned, it was aimed at Joe Public, then the uninitiated will have many gaps in their knowledge.

[Pontius Navigator]

Add up all the bits Ppruners said should have been included, subtract a few bits that could have been left out, divide by 90, and see what you have.

Actually demonstrating the Lysander, still much a secret operation, and you have an educational bit for Joe Public, ditto John Tye and QRA.

The ATA, the photo device and the Bomber Command vets give the clue to the production. It was people centric not loads of old film clips.

BZ

[MFC_Fly]

Then it shouldn't have been a single 90 minute programme. This should have been a multi-part series to do the subject real justice.

[goudie]

Perhaps a shot of a Beverley, operating in Radfan would have filled a gap or two.
Seems ‘celebrities’ have to present everything these days.

[MFC_Fly]

And, even though there was quiet a lot of coverage of the Battle of Britain, there was not a single mention of Susannah York - probably much to the disgust of certain Pruners :eek:

[brakedwell]

Perhaps a shot of a Beverley, operating in Radfan would have filled a gap or two.
Seems ‘celebrities’ have to present everything these days.

Your wish is my command!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UtDU3n49E8A

[goudie]

Thanks brakedwell.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Then it shouldn't have been a single 90 minute programme. This should have been a multi-part series to do the subject real justice"

On a major BBC channel? are you kidding??

The BritPub want soaps, reality TV etc etc

You're lucky to have got one programme TBH

[Tankertrashnav]

Yes I remember The Valiant Years Beagle, in fact I find I can still hum the introductory music! Great series.

[deepknight]

As someone who's been both a journo and a commercial heavy jet captain, I feel I have to break the sad news to a few pruners: the audience really don't care about the RAF's role in the inter-war years or whether the Scruggs wonder-jet was better in a dogfight than the Super Jackboot, or the magnificent work the kipper fleet did, or why British combat moustaches were superior to USAF ones. The viewers had scores of available TV channels to watch. That's why the BBC's only hope someone might watch this was if it was an entertainment presented by a Celeb and his brother. A ninety-minute detailed lecture from Air Vice Marshal WhenIwasOnTwelveSquadron wouldn't have stood much of a chance against Carrie Mathews on Homeland on C4!

[Flugplatz]

Very surprised to hear that Sierra Leone Chinook Captain say that the crew were selected from singles/people without children!!

Did they know that they were selected on that basis, or was it just a clumsy way of saying volunteers were selected on that basis?

[Fareastdriver]

A ninety-minute detailed lecture from Air Vice Marshal WhenIwasOnTwelveSquadron wouldn't have stood much of a chance against Carrie Mathews on Homeland on C4

I was under the impression that the BBC was a Public Service program. That is why we pay a licence fee to keep it afloat. A commercial TV company will aim at the audience to gain the most kudos for advertising purposes.

Our glorious BBC doesn't do that; does it?

[Lukeafb1]

Unlike most contributors, I found the overall programme to be somewhat disappointing. As at least two other contributors have mentioned, it seemed to be a publicity show for the McGregor brothers (and their mother [what the heck was she doing in it??]).

As has been pointed out, so much more was missing, than was included and why include a fatuous segment showing the brothers unloading 3 or 4 tons of potatoes from a DC3. Utterly unnecessary, since huge amounts of real footage is available.

As others have said, why was it not split into two or three episodes. Far more could have been included. I accept that there would still be omissions, but not as many as there were in this programme. And let me add, that the costs would not have been astronomical. How do I know, I’m a retired programme maker!!

[Easy Street]

Overall I thought it was very effective and I liked the emphasis towards the end on the importance of people in the RAF’s history: exactly why Trenchard put such emphasis on training and expertise. The section about Halton with Cliff Spink was very good.

If you want comprehensive coverage of all aspects and Pathe News footage and all that jazz, then you have series like ‘The World at War’ and ‘Reaching for the Skies’, masterpieces for sure but there’s a reason they’re shown on the History Channel and not on prime time BBC1. To the high-profile omissions can be added Tornado, Buccaneer and Lightning (don’t think I even saw a Harrier either) but it’s missing the point of the programme to get wrapped up in that.

The *one* area I would criticise has already been mentioned. After the treatment of the BofB and the Bomber offensive, the narrator said something like “but there was another largely unsung effort which was critical to winning the war”. Aha, I thought, they’re heading for a 10/10 now; unfortunately it wasn’t Coastal Command which followed, but photo recce. I’ve dug out my copy of Terraine to remind everyone:

“Operation OVERLORD was the supreme offensive action of the Western Allies in the war. It could not have taken place without the Atlantic victory to which Coastal Command made such a magnificent contribution”.

Welcome back 120 Sqn (soon)!

[NutLoose]

A bit disappointing, there is more to the RAF than fighters, the other stuff seemed to be a token add on, and never covered some parts, it also seemed to miss out everything the RAF has done between WW1, WW2, the Falklands and modern times, it also felt more like a McGregor roadshow than a history of the RAF, some posts say Colin is a good chap etc, well he might well be, but he should stick at what he is good , because as a presenter he came over as very wooden and boring to watch.. Why oh why do they fill these programmes with presenters and ther families, I half expected him to bring his dog out and tell you it was named after......Euan is a good narrator, we don't need to see him all the way through the programmes.

Totally agree it should have been over several episodes to do it justice.

I see the robbed the Battle of Britain film archive for colour film to show the adversaries in their Merlin powered ME109's and Heinkel 111, they started the RAF Halton clip, home of the other ranks by showing the officers mess, shame they didn't start with the apprentice blocks which would have been more representative.

[Phantom Driver]

high spirits;

It was designed for the public, not for military types. Enjoyed it for what it was personally.

Exactly.

As deepknight succinctly put it;

As someone who's been both a journo and a commercial heavy jet captain, I feel I have to break the sad news to a few pruners: the audience really don't care about the RAF's role in the inter-war years or whether the Scruggs wonder-jet was better in a dogfight than the Super Jackboot, or the magnificent work the kipper fleet did, or why British combat moustaches were superior to USAF ones. The viewers had scores of available TV channels to watch. That's why the BBC's only hope someone might watch this was if it was an entertainment presented by a Celeb and his brother. A ninety-minute detailed lecture from Air Vice Marshal WhenIwasOnTwelveSquadron wouldn't have stood much of a chance against Carrie Mathews on Homeland on C4!

Aunty Beeb may be a public service company , but they know where the real money is. They made a good attempt with this one , but after that , it's back to business as usual. However , it might just encourage some of Joe Public to delve deeper and go search out the hours of RAF stuff available on History , Yesterday and , yes, You Tube.

[ExRAFRadar]

A fine summary of what some others have said. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing more than we expect.

It was on the BBC, as others have said, for the public at large, Did you really expect anything different? Yeah, there was a lot of the brothers, but that it was what makes TV that sells. I thought it was great PR for the RAF too. Not something the RAF seems to be very good at.

BGG

Really?

I thought it shallow beyond words and the more I think about it the more I get annoyed.

I'm not going to bother watching it again but the lasting impression I have of the ground trades is that they pick up spilled spuds.

And the anecdote about 'keys being thrown on the table', what was that included for? Added nothing except to make the whole ATA experience seem a 'jolly good wheeze' for well spoken ladies.

I am sure those 2 amazing pilots have more than a fair share of decent pull up a sandbag stories that would have been much more worthy of air time.

How can you do 100 years of RAF history and miss out 45 years of RAF involvement in the Cold War.

I was not looking for a Raymond Baxter type documentary but something with a bit of bite and with substance. I thought it trite and dull.

Message Ends

[cynicalint]

I really enjoyed the program, which seemed a lot shorter and quicker than the 90 mins it took to watch! However, the areas left out were marked. No Coastal Command, no Maritime, no Burma, no NEAF, no FEAF, no North Africa, no inter-war, no air defence, only a hint of the cold war, a hint at transport, a hint the helo force, a hint at the Falklands but only a well deserved contribution from a from bona mate, no AEW, very little of any support function, eg. RAF Regiment, ATC, met, firemen, Signals, armourers, fairies, airframes, engines, scuffers, suppliers, chefs, stewards, batties, MT, medics, dentists, pardres, int, linguists, imagery analysts, communications, admin, lineys, edjucamaters, stewards, squippers, sooties, sim techs, photogs, kennel maids, along with many others that do not readily spring to mind. (Oops,- add movers). The ladies of the ATA, fascinating, but a very peripheral part of the RAF, featured too much. This program would appear to be a perfect overture for a much more detailed work. A good and promising start with much potential for advancement, should the opportunities presented be grasped fully.

[NutLoose]

One thing I thought they skated over was the fact in WW1 they used to carry a pistol to top themselves in a fire as they had no parachutes, they failed to mention the opposition had them and the only reason ours didn't was higher command thought they would be jumping out of aircraft left right and centre instead of trying to save them, thus the mortality rate was higher as you lost experienced pilots and replaced them with canon fodder.

[Tankertrashnav]

The ladies of the ATA, fascinating, but a very peripheral part of the RAF, featured too much.

You do realise that it is now apparently illegal to mention the ATA without giving the impression that it was exclusively "manned" by women, when in fact only around one in eight of its pilots were female? Same goes with press photos of ceremonial units such as the King's Troop, RHA, the foot guards etc, which unless they prominently feature a woman soldier will not be printed.

May have been understandable when women in uniform were a novelty but it gets tiresome after a while. I know I do bang on about this, but what is PPRuNe for if not "banging on"?

[roving]

In WWII, the USSR had women flying as fighter pilots and one of Germany's finest test pilots was a woman.

Whereas in Britain it was ok for French and Anglo-French women to join the SOE and be flown into occupied France where many were captured, tortured and executed. Just as long as it was kept secret.

Even in the post WWII Royal Air Force women were not able to "join up". Instead they had to join the Royal Air Force equivalent of the Girl Guides and where they restricted to ground roles.

Of course the important role of women in the ATA during WWII should be promoted.

The idea that only men should fly fast jets reflects the insecurity of men in British society, not women.

[Training Risky]

Of course the important role of women in the ATA during WWII should be promoted.

The idea that only men should fly fast jets reflects the insecurity of men in British society, not women.

You missed the point.

The women 'promoted' during these PR jazz fests are overwhelmingly presented as half (and sometimes more) of the WWII workforce. It is a false image, but one that suits modern MOD PR guff.

And men form the huge majority of aircrew because we are biologically suited to it.:}

[Dan Gerous]

What is it with all the lanyards? Just about everyone at Lossie was wearing one. Everytime we had cut backs in the 70's and 80's, the old joke would come up, "with all the cuts, we could save money on ID cards, as everyone would know everyone else".

[Basil]

Watched our recording last night and, uncharacteristically, have nothing to add to the foregoing - except to ask: "Where was the Argosy?" :confused:

[roving]

Training Risky,

Women currently occupy the roles of:

Monarch
Prime Minister
Home Secretary
President of the Supreme Court
Metropolitan Police Commissioner

add

Head of the Crown Prosecution Service


It will not be long before one is appointed CAS.

[brakedwell]

Sod the top jobs, I still want to be an engine (steam) driver :cool:

[Blacksheep]

I enjoyed it and I was especially pleased with the inclusion of Lord Trenchard's Apprentice scheme - one of the two bedrocks of the early RAF. :ok:

As for the rest of the UK armed forces, there is a tradition of not showing any respect for any of the other services to their faces, specifically when the public are present. However it is only a tradition because we have such a great respect for the other services in the UK, and we are engaging in a topic known as "banter".Join your local Armed Forces Veterans Breakfast Club (https://afvbc.co.uk/). Our Welwyn-Hatfield Branch are having a "Wear Blue for the RAF" breakfast on this Sunday morning's regular meeting. We'll still have all the usual inter-service banter of course. One can expect nothing less.

[Training Risky]

Training Risky,

Women currently occupy the roles of:

Monarch
Prime Minister
Home Secretary
President of the Supreme Court
Metropolitan Police Commissioner

add

Head of the Crown Prosecution Service


It will not be long before one is appointed CAS.

Sorry to burst your bubble old chap but not one of these appointments were on merit:

Monarch (Hereditary)
Prime Minister (No sane man wanted to do it during Brexit. Also, she is RUBBISH!)
Home Secretary (Quota filling, she is also ineffective)
President of the Supreme Court (Quota filling, and a big fan of 'positive discrimination')
Metropolitan Police Commissioner (Quota filling, even after mangling up the Stockwell shooting)
Head of the Crown Prosecution Service (Don't even get me started...just read the rape mistrial cases)

CAS/CGS/1SL? (Only if a woman puts the hard yards in over 40 years and competes on merit.)

[roving]

Commandant of the College, Air Commodore Chris Luck said: “I hope that many of the young women who attended will be inspired to join the RAF and perhaps one of them will one day rise to become the Chief of the Air Staff.”

https://www.sleafordstandard.co.uk/news/politics/young-women-hear-of-how-to-fly-high-in-raf-1-6498747

[brakedwell]

No comment.
Where’s me hat and coat :E

[OKOC]

Very surprised to hear that Sierra Leone Chinook Captain say that the crew were selected from singles/people without children!!

Did they know that they were selected on that basis, or was it just a clumsy way of saying volunteers were selected on that basis?

Also Untue. I went many times as a married man with 2 very young children.

Also not as a volunteer but tasked.

[Treble one]

Also Untue. I went many times as a married man with 2 very young children.

Also not as a volunteer but tasked.

I think he was talking about the specific SF mission?

[Monarch Man]

With the focus on the Great War and it’s origins, I was bitterly disappointed that this great man didn’t get a mention

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1RFwflbMo2c

[sangiovese.]

Watched our recording last night and, uncharacteristically, have nothing to add to the foregoing - except to ask: "Where was the Argosy?" :confused:

Still on the way in formation with the Belfast probably :E

[Pontius Navigator]

. . .higher command thought they would be jumping out of aircraft left right and centre . ..
In the 60s aircrew could do a number of into water parachute jumps. Bomber Command did not support this as 'you might bail out on a nuclear war mission.'

[Fareastdriver]

It wouldn't be new. In the Book 'Fall of Fortresses' by Elmer Bendiner he mentioned the waist gunners that bailed out as they crossed the Dutch coast.

Can't blame them. Standing by an open hatch getting shot at.

[cynicalint]

TTN, Roving, and Training Risky, thanks for your comments on my ambiguity on the ATA perspective. They are accurate, pertinent and highlight the importance of gender and allied elements of the RAF. But these discussions are a red herring to the program and deserve a thread of their own. I was not referring to the gender or importance of the ATA, but on the fact that in a program of limited time and large subject matter, that a non-RAF element was given enough prominence when so many large swathes of RAF elements were ignored.

[Tankertrashnav]

Good point cynicalint.

"Where was the Argosy?"

Still on the way in formation with the Belfast probably

Excellent :D

[sittingstress]

Us Rocks were given a good stiff ignoring too.

[roving]

Just posted on the BBC website.

Taking to the skies in a RAF Tornado - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-43558286/taking-to-the-skies-in-a-raf-tornado)

[Tashengurt]

I had quite a jolt when it showed the old workshops at Halton.
As for general PCness I thought it was quite twaddle free for a beeb programme. No LGBT or race issues shoehorned in.
Good to see the Squippers featured (if only as background). That Typhoon kits moved on since I worked on the EF2000 development kit.

[roving]

The Tornado flight is to be described on BBC Radio 4 Today programme at some point before 9.00am.

add

For those that can replay the BBC Radio 4 Today from about 8.10am there follows 18 minutes about the Tornado and then a detailed discussion with Air Marshall Atha about the projected role of the RAF in space, under the water, the P-8 Poseidon and F-35 Lightning.

[VX275]

The Tornado flight is to be described on BBC Radio 4 Today programme at some point before 9.00am.

"Jesus Mary and Joseph" :D

[Mogwi]

I never had Martha Carnie down as a 'screaming girl' but that is just what she came across as this morning. One of the worst bits of PR (not to mention reporting!) that I have heard for ages. Why put someone with a total lack of aviation competence or knowledge in the back of a fast jet? First time I have known anyone scared by an airbrake.

Surely the RAF and BBC can make a better hash of a very important milestone.

GRRR!

[Fitter2]

For someone with no relevant experience, I thought she was remarkably coherent. The section of the programme was a good news piece for the RAF.

[roving]

If one flicks back though the historical sections "flight" to an lengthy write-up in 1957, on the FEAF, the journalist describes being flown into Fort Langkap, a jungle strip, in a single pin. My dad, who was then flt cmdr of 267 Squadron in KL, was the pilot.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957%20-%200880.html?search=fort%20langkap

Before they arrived at the fort my dad prepared (or rather tried to prepare) him for it, by telling him that on approach he would cut the power and they float down and then he would power-up just above the strip.

40 years later my dad was able to recall the "Oh my God" expletives from the journalist as it floated down.

Nothing changes.

[muppetofthenorth]

Why put someone with a total lack of aviation competence or knowledge in the back of a fast jet?

Because that's 99.9% of the audience?

[Onceapilot]

I never had Martha Carnie down as a 'screaming girl' but that is just what she came across as this morning.!

Sarah Montague? ;)
Yes, unfortunately very few reporters are capable of putting up a good performance in a FJ. Overall, her reporting was good I thought, although the description of Tornado GR1 being in it's operational element at 250' day VFR by Wg Cdr Heeps was lightweight. How about, Day/Night IMC 200', VFR 100' Strike/Attack.
As for AM Atha, he was shaky on the Space/Russia/Cyber stuff. What is wrong with clearly describing GPS jamming? It is widely understood, and that is why it is done! Methinks he was trying hard not to let some Int slip out, while making Joe public worried about WW3.

OAP

[Easy Street]

For those that can replay the BBC Radio 4 Today from about 8.10am there follows 18 minutes about the Tornado and then a detailed discussion with Air Marshall Atha about the projected role of the RAF in space, under the water, the P-8 Poseidon and F-35 Lightning.

There was also OC 9 Sqn at 6.10am and Marham's Stn Cdr at 7.15am, both with clips of the Tornado sortie beforehand. Nice to hear the rivalry with 617 Sqn is still alive, an entertaining end to my drive to work. Apparently C2 was on at about 7.30 as well but I missed that.

[roving]

Yes there was discussion about the F-35 later with one of the test pilots (I think), it was explained that the F-35 needed a bomb bay -- a novelty these days, because the bombs are not "stealth"

[melmothtw]

I never had Martha Carnie down as a 'screaming girl' but that is just what she came across as this morning. One of the worst bits of PR (not to mention reporting!) that I have heard for ages. Why put someone with a total lack of aviation competence or knowledge in the back of a fast jet? First time I have known anyone scared by an airbrake.

Surely the RAF and BBC can make a better hash of a very important milestone.

GRRR!

Poor old BBC, gets hammered if it doesn't cover the RAF and gets hammered when it does. What would be the point of putting a seasoned aviator in the back? Would likely be the dullest 20 minutes of TV/radio I ever saw or heard.

As an aside, re-read your book the other day Mogwi - now that was not a dull experience...!

[Bob Viking]

My God, you lot are a tough crowd. I just watched the video and what the hell was wrong with it?

What I saw was a well spoken journalist who managed two hours in the back of a Tonka and still had a smile on her face. Most pax feel ropey far quicker than that and wouldn’t be able to talk as well as she did.

I’d say Heepsy did a great job of his sound bites as well.

I’m not really sure what else you could expect from a 2.5 minute news clip.

BV

[charliegolf]

My God, you lot are a tough crowd.

I’m not really sure what else you could expect from a 2.5 minute news clip.

BV

You don't get it Bob- it wasn't Raymond Baxter, and for some, anything less is treasonable!

CG:ok:

[anchorhold]

I think the Jesus Mary comment should have been cut, out of respect to others. But what I found strange is a reputable BBC reporter interviewing a pilot while flying at low level at 250ft, there is nothing wrong will patter, but perhaps SM should have asked isn't very distracting having a conversation at low level in the same way as mobiles for car drivers. So much for a sterile environment Hopefully in the light of recent events the front seat had command over the rear seat. If SM didn.t throw up after two hous in a fast jet, she did better than most.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The SM backseat ride started off annoying me but by the end I thought it was good PR and good journalism.

The RAF has played this Centenary well. Bravo. Here’s to the next 100 years.


WWW

[Bob Viking]

If OC 9 Sqn can fly a Tornado and put up with the constant whining of a navigator I’m sure he can cope with the questions of a journalist.

That is banter by the way before anyone gets too upset.

BV

PS. The soundtrack is an overlay by the way. Who knows when she asked the questions? Could have been at ML.

[treadigraph]

I think the Jesus Mary comment should have been cut, out of respect to others.

More of a prayer than a blasphemy, methinks! :)

Good for them for doing it; mind you, an RAF officer referring to the F-35 as an airplane...? :eek: I can hear a certain Douglas Bader snorting profanely...:)

[brakedwell]

[QUOTE=treadigraph

Good for them for doing it; mind you, an RAF officer referring to the F-35 as an airplane...? :eek: I can hear a certain Douglas Bader snorting profanely...:)[/QUOTE]

He only referred to the F-35 momentarily ;)

[Dan Gerous]

I'm curious as to what the camera was that got all that 360 footage.

[Onceapilot]

BV

PS. The soundtrack is an overlay by the way. Who knows when she asked the questions? Could have been at ML.

If you watch the 360 video, you can hear the sound in sync with the flying. ;)
Pity the noise cancellation seems to remove just about all background apart from some electronic breakthrough.

OAP

[Easy Street]

the description of Tornado GR1 being in it's operational element at 250' day VFR by Wg Cdr Heeps was lightweight. How about, Day/Night IMC 200', VFR 100' Strike/Attack.
As with the criticism of Sunday night’s TV show, this is missing the point. The fact that about 15 minutes of Wg Cdr Heeps’s material made it to air on the Today programme means that it was pitched correctly for the audience. There were some nuggets in there which may stick in the mind of the ‘opinion-forming’ classes simply for having been broadcast, and if nothing else it’s exposure for the RAF among urbanites who see nothing of it. If it he had given dry technical stuff it would mostly have been binned.

[Onceapilot]

If it he had given dry technical stuff it would mostly have been binned.

This is what I wrote: "Overall, her reporting was good I thought, although the description of Tornado GR1 being in it's operational element at 250' day VFR by Wg Cdr Heeps was lightweight. How about, Day/Night IMC 200', VFR 100' Strike/Attack."

IMO, he downplayed the Tornado capability and then, went on to point out that OLF might well be required by stealthy aircraft. Not a matter of being "dry", a gentle 250' navex should have been described as such. ;)

OAP

[Tankertrashnav]

Just listened to the piece and I thought she did very well. I had a little shock when they mentioned that the Tornado will be out of service within a year. When I left the RAF in 1977 there were still two years before the aircraft (which was still called the MRCA) was to enter RAF service, so in my mind it is still a "new" aircraft. Just another function of getting old I suppose :(

[treadigraph]

I remember when the Tornado had just entered service there were four or maybe six on the western ramp at Biggin Hill in connection with a fly past, presumably over London - first I'd seen other than development aircraft at Farnborough... Must have been summer 1980?

Less than 40 year's service life seems quite short compared with some other types!

[Bob Viking]

The vast majority of those years were spent on Ops though. Right up until the bitter end.

Few other platforms can boast of a record like that.

BV

[roving]

Add to which the blue on blue in Iraq when an RAF GR4 was shot down by a Patriot missile when returning to its base in Kuwait in 2003, highlighted its vulnerability.

Unlike Scotland, there are no mountains or deep valleys in the Baltic region to snuggle up to. It is as flat as a pancake. To be a successful ground attack a/c in that NATO region of special interest, it needs stealth.

[Easy Street]

Add to which the blue on blue in Iraq when an RAF GR4 was shot down by a Patriot missile when returning to its base in Kuwait in 2003, highlighted its vulnerability.

It suffered an IFF failure. Any non-stealthy ac with a similar problem and flight parameters could have met the same fate.

Unlike Scotland, there are no mountains or deep valleys in the Baltic region to snuggle up to. It is as flat as a pancake. To be a successful ground attack a/c in that NATO region of special interest, it needs stealth.

Not even the Americans intend to have a 100% stealth-capable attack fleet. The stealth ac need to be capable of suppressing air defences for long enough to get the non-stealthy bomb trucks in and out again; you can't achieve much with the internal bomb load of F-35!! And even over the flat sea, the radar horizon is still a useful ally against land-based SAM. Typhoon, F15E, B1 and B52 have years left in them and will continue to find employment.

[Timelord]

Has anyone worked out what caused the “Jesus Mary and Joseph” moment? OC IX talks about the “ brakes “ but I couldn’t see any sign of the air brakes on the 360 deg film ( I know it may not be synchronised) and they are pretty mild in the Tornado anyway . I thought it was all good coverage for the Today listening public. Well done all-even the BBC.

[Easy Street]

Has anyone worked out what caused the “Jesus Mary and Joseph” moment? OC IX talks about the “ brakes “ but I couldn’t see any sign of the air brakes on the 360 deg film ( I know it may not be synchronised) and they are pretty mild in the Tornado anyway . I thought it was all good coverage for the Today listening public. Well done all-even the BBC.

I could see them (well, the right-hand-one, I assume they came out together!) in the 360 film. He talks about putting them in after her complaints and you can see it go in again. I reckon she must have been suffering the somatogravic illusion of pitching down under deceleration; going idle/airbrake in a Tornado at 550kts is pretty harsh in my recollection!

[Timelord]

I’ll have another look. She definitely wouldn’t have liked the Buccaneer air brakes then!

[Darvan]

I’ll have another look. She definitely wouldn’t have liked the Buccaneer air brakes then!
Just about to say the same myself. 550kts to 240kts in a matter of a few seconds. Like hitting a brick wall.

[Lyneham Lad]

Just watched the 18 minutes or so BBC video and I have to say she did far, far better than I would have done. A low level over Somerset in a 47 Sqn Herc proved too me that my ear canals are not suitable for such circumstances. Bravo to her for maintaining an intelligent conversation whilst enjoying the delights of the Mach Loop etc!

[Green Flash]

Slight thread drift here but another bit of RAF history fades away

Edinburgh Airport's second runway closes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-43594666)

[Idle Reverse]

Just a quick question / point on the BBC RAF 100 yrs programme. As well as the “50 yrs in service” error with the chinook I questioned the 03 readiness state ? It might be memory fade over the years but I thought we went to readiness state 02 (ie 2 mins) from a readiness state 05 (ie 5 mins) as opposed to the 3 mins stated in the programme ? I thought it was Readiness State 15 - 05 - 02 - scramble . . . any old thoughts on that ?

[A340Yumyum]

The Tornado flight is to be described on BBC Radio 4 Today programme at some point before 9.00am.

add

For those that can replay the BBC Radio 4 Today from about 8.10am there follows 18 minutes about the Tornado and then a detailed discussion with Air Marshall Atha about the projected role of the RAF in space, under the water, the P-8 Poseidon and F-35 Lightning.

Air Marshal has one ‘l’.

[goudie]

Well spotted!

[roving]

Air Marshal has one ‘l’.

Although I have good uncorrected distance vision, after many years of reading countless lever arch files of documents under artificial light, I decided I needed to wear specs for reading and I switched to using speech recognition software for dictation, leaving it to my admin staff to proof read for errors. It is encouraging to know in my retirement that there contributors to this forum willing to step up to plate to fill the void, especially as I stopped using specs altogether a couple of years ago.

[The Nr Fairy]

I'm surprised no one has posted this yet - performed by the Band of THE Royal Air Force.

Those Magnificent Men In Their Flying Machines

[Bill Macgillivray]

Idle Reverse,

That is what I remember as well. RS15 - 05 - 02 - "end off!!"

Bill

[Tankertrashnav]

Re Air Marshals, I was confused to read a report about sky marshals, the undercover armed agents placed on flights to prevent hijacking incidents. The reporter referred to them as air marshals and I thought this an odd job for a VSO - particularly as his much braided uniform and the scrambled egg on his hat might well draw attention to himself.

[XV490]

Good to see the BBC News Channel's marking of the centenary this Sunday morning.

[Pontius Navigator]

Idle Reverse,

That is what I remember as well. RS15 - 05 - 02 - "end off!!"

Bill
Quite.

There were also 'par' times. Although the allowed time from 15 to 05 was obviously 10 minutes, a crew that greatly exceeded the par time, say 4 min 30 sec, had to explain why.

[Hueymeister]

Currently can't access the Beeb to watch..can anyone point me toward another way to watch it?

[Mogwi]

Can you get BBC Iplayer on t'interweb?

[Hueymeister]

Using a vpn, but Iplayer knows I am not in uk.

[Chugalug2]

Huey:-
Currently can't access the Beeb to watch..can anyone point me toward another way to watch it?

Some BBC coverage of the RAF Centenary can be found on YouTube by searching there for "BBC RAF". Last night's offering was very educational, implying that Douglas Bader was AOC 12 Group during the BoB. The things you learn!

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bbc+raf

Edited to add that the 360 degree Tornado video defaulted to a very low definition for me, so I had to tweak it up to HD on the settings button, bottom RHS of the youtube screen

[FAR CU]

When I left the RAF in 1977 there were still two years before the aircraft (which was still called the MRCA) was to enter RAF service,


Even if it takes an unwashed antipodean to tell you what MRCA stands for, here goes- (and thank you Uncle Roger) -

MRCA - Mother Reilly's Cardboard Aeroplane

[Haraka]

a.k.a. Must Refurbish Canberra (Again)

[Hueymeister]

Eventually got it on youtoooob. Put a big smile on this face. Nicely done.

[Wander00]

Haraka - seconded.....

[Evanelpus]

I couldn't wait any longer and watched the damn thing and it confirm this wasn't a celebration of 100 years of the RAF. it was a :mad:showreel for the brothers McGregor.

[Danny42C]

BBC iPlayer has a far more watchable "Battle of Britain" from 19 Sept last, with the McGregor brothers.

[BEagle]

MRCA = Must Reopen Chivenor Again

And they did! For a brief few years until it was squaddified, like many RAF stations in the nicer parts of the UK...:mad: