Things to ponder when considering EK

[greenfields]

I've received a few messages asking me to post this as a stand-alone post instead of buried in the interview thread. So I've started a thread here. People will choose to work for EK for a variety of reasons, and understandably so. Make sure you are informed and have the real picture of what work is like.

The simplest and most striking fact is that work-life balance has completely disappeared from the job - there is none. The little time that is now spent at home between trips is used trying to recuperate, and there is no quality time left for the individual or their family due to exhaustion. The working conditions have reached a position of being unsustainable for anyone who wishes to remain fit and healthy. It is impossible to fly ULRs (many with 24hr layovers) and then be physically and mentally fit to safely fly again 48 hours later, especially for a night turn. The flying limits - targets - used in the region are not realistic, and have no regard to a person’s physical and mental requirements. I watched many pilots who are exhausted, and just ‘managing to get through’ a flight, as opposed to working efficiently, and indeed learning how to work better.

There are a plethora of other issues that need fixing, but won’t be. Following are issues that, when tallied with work-life balance, has pilots leaving in numbers that haven't been seen before.

When Annual Leave is promulgated, some form of training is invariably allocated immediately upon completion. This is unacceptable and shows complete disregard to what Annual Leave was designed for. Annual Leave is a time to be free of all things to do with work, and when training is the first duty after leave this is not the case! The need to study for PPCs or a Line Check will become the focus of at least the last few days of Leave, and will more than likely be on the pilot's mind during Leave. This is totally unacceptable. Does an office worker spend their holidays having to study for a potentially career changing -or ending - event when they return to work?

Despite the massive increase in hours and duties the pay has failed to keep up, especially considering the cost of living in Dubai. The Productivity Payments are in no way an adequate reimbursement for the free time taken from the pilot. The practice of allocating 14 days AL and then flying for 60-70hrs in the remaining days is another issue. By that ratio, a pilot is flying 120 hrs for the month, but as there is no pro-rata of AL for the month will receive no Productivity Pay. This is an appalling practice because firstly the Company is compressing the roster for the remainder of the month (which they won't allow you to do if you tried to get days off!), meaning the pilot is even more exhausted than normal, and secondly because there is no financial reward/payment for it.

While discussing Annual Leave, the habit of allocating 5 days of AL then flying maximum hours for the rest of the month means that the Annual Leave has merely been reduced from the pilot's entitlement with no benefit. As an expat airline, Annual Leave is almost sacred to an employee in order to return home and visit family, or utilise to travel efficiently. When they are receiving, generally, a maximum allocation of only 14 days, this does not allow the expats who come from North America, South America, or Oceania to travel home and enjoy their time off. This also needs to be considered in the context of only 1 ALT being allocated per year - pilots are supposed to receive 42 days Annual Leave (I never did, 7 years in the airline) - and so for the remaining days allocated in small blocks there is no confirmed ticket to return home or travel. This is an abject failure for an expat airline.

The Company has a Punitive Culture. End of story. No ifs or buts, it is a punitive culture. The only employee group in the Company who accepts responsibility - the pilots - are the ones who are themselves treated with a lack of respect for the position, and receive the greatest threats. I lost count of the amount of times I was spoken to disrespectfully by staff and quite literally treated with contempt. These are not an isolated occurrences, and it is a reflection of how management treats its pilots - the other employee groups have noticed it, and decided that they too can act the same way. It is a disturbing aspect for the Company - the constant threat of job loss for a mistake is not a way to promote a safety-conscious culture in an airline; it does the opposite. Fatigue is not something that is caused just by the rostered flying, it is also from the constant - perceived or real - threats from management regarding job security. Here we have the conflicting situation of 2 pilots who are entrusted with an expensive asset and 400 passengers (an even more expensive asset!), and yet are treated like teenagers.

The company view regarding Sick Leave is just another problem with the culture. To be confirmed sick by a company doctor, have a large number of days off because of illness or surgery but then be forced to attend a meeting to discuss ‘productivity’ shows how disconnected the Company has become from the reality of a good working culture, or how far removed they are from being an Employer of Choice (Bahahaha - nice survey, what happened to the results?) The working environment is now resulting in people becoming sick at a higher rate than they should - this is what should be the focus of a company that wants to be a good employer. Sending automatic emails when a sick leave threshold has been crossed is a poor practice.

The rostering system is a mess and total failure. This is not because of the system that is being used, but because of the number of unwarranted conditions that are placed into it which are destroying it’s ability to perform. ‘Success’ being defined as having only 1 of your bids awarded and the remainder being constructed from anything is not ‘success.’ The overwhelming majority of pilots are expats, and one of the promoted benefits of joining is the ability to “bid to allow you more time with the family, or experience it’s new and exciting destinations” (*Emirates Pilot Recruitment Video, 2011.) This is not true. Manually restricting days off around Annual Leave is also performed, and for Expats it is a major negative aspect to job satisfaction.

The study prior to PPCs is box ticking by a department that has completely lost its way. The number of modules that now have to be completed is ridiculous, and serve no purpose other than for the Company remove fault from itself, should the pilot make an error at some stage, by stating that they were trained in it. There is a RGTS day prior to the simulator, the need to do more modules prior is completely unwarranted and is simply encroaching on more of a pilot’s already limited downtime.

The simulator timings themselves are also in need of revamp. A pilot simply will not perform at 3am as well as they will during normal day time hours. Repeated rostering of PPCs during the hours of 2300-0600 means that a pilot is getting absolutely no training benefit from the session, and is being placed into a position where their job is on the line, and they are not sufficiently rested for it. The argument that we fly jets at that time so you should be able to perform at that time is completely and totally ignorant. At 3am on a line flight we don’t have 3 major malfunctions occur and have to deal with, then get repositioned for a number of Low-Viz approaches with failures, then get repositioned for more approaches and/or failures that are all graded ‘Pass/Fail.’ To state that there has been ‘no change to the failure rate witnessed’ since the system has been changed to 3 simulator day training event running on concurrent days is similarly ignorant. I thought Day 3 was meant to be learning day? How much productive learning occurs between 2300-0600 for an exhausted pilot? The answer is none.

Emirates offered what should be the best and most challenging career for pilots- the network and aircraft are second to none. What should be a very easy ‘yes’ decision for prospective pilots to make when considering Emirates has now turned the other way because of the reasons I stated above and more. It is very disappointing for those of that left their home countries to work for what they considered was a progressive airline, and yet is now completely regressive.

But remember, "there is just too much negativity. Think positive - that is all that is needed for things to be good. Positive thinking will make everything good." Happiness Street anyone?

Good luck!

[ironbutt57]

all the mentioned above has netted the company 3 close calls recently, glad I dont work there, feel bad for my former colleagues that do

[The Outlaw]

What the thread starter has posted is enough reasons to resign alone although in many cases people resign for those and/or other reasons. One has to remember that the company is the one who sponsors (basically owns) you which makes one feel imprisoned. There is no time to pursue hobbies, family or other interests outside work and what greenfields states about rostering is 100% true, you really feel like they purposely build a roster of misery by getting minimum days off and effectively nothing you bid for. In any case you WILL be tired.

The company will always attract pilots with ego's and big watches who want the big shiny jets or those who want to pay off that student loan. Management are not dumb, quite the contrary and they know that this is a 5 year gig after which they want you gone for newer and shinier pilots - there is little difference in and between pilots and cabin crew in this regard.

After a few years the shine wears away and one is left with the true picture. It manifests itself in you becoming miserable, effects your relationship with family and friends and makes you feel trapped. Eventually you reach a point and "enough" , it's time to go! Once that point is reached, you feel a great sense of stress relief and begin to turn back into your old self again. The stress of leaving a "good" job and repatriating home is nothing compared to staying here.

Never think that you'll make any difference, whether you stay or go. Also be aware that you can be resigned or sacked at anytime over any reason - its no way to spend a working life.

Best of luck to those considering coming here. If I can offer any advice it would be to say to seriously consider what is being written here and in many other posts. You'll get a few that defend the company (although I speculate they have other motives) but the majority of what is posted here represents a well rounded truth.

To those who are in the process of, or considering leaving, I'll say good luck, the hardest point is the 5 seconds before you say "enough...I'm done".

To those considering joining, "caveat emptor", especially if you're leaving a reasonable job and country.

[salamalecom]

Ok, i won't go. Thank you.

[fatbus]

A majority of new pilots are single and mid 20's so the job looks great. Not concerned about upgrade age unless you talking CC !

[Mister Warning]

GF.............bravo!

[desert witch]

Good post greenfields.

My first post in over a decade in the sandpit, trying to add succintly:
- Randomness. This is applicable to everything below. It is the sublimation process embedded in all. I think it is what wears down the most.
- Demotions. One always thinks is the rest getting this stuff. But it does happen OFTEN in here (anyone has a number??). For random reasons. With all the consequences that carries... Career and possibly personality changing.
From the perspective of a captain: How do you think it feels flying with a lad that is 15 years and 10k hours more experienced than yourself, knowing he has been recently demoted. Break in CRM maybe?
- Failed upgrades. Last number I heard (not confirmed, again, anyone has a number?) is 60% failure. During the course that is. If you count the interview, it is probably more. If you think: It's OK, it is only 5 years to try... Failing feels wrong, demotivates, and then you have to apply to another airline, in which you would probably be upgrading by now anyway. Which brings the next bullet point,
- Wrong Training Mentality. If more than half upgrade candidates fail... are they to blame? obviously not. If every now and then a perfectly capable individual with a clean record, goes and just fails a PPC, isn't it more than possible than a remedial training should fix it? Well, not here.
- Fear. Mentioned often enough. Our new boss recently told us by video, there is no fear. He did not say there is no cheesecake. Everybody knows there is no cheesecake.
Latest fear inductor is: If you don't get a good enough score in your PPC, you are given a follow up: Simulators and training flights. You don't even need to fail.
- Fired. Same as above.
- And all of that to keep a job that does not give a life-work balance, and does not let you save either: Dubai is crazy expensive now (to use a standard good, coke went up by 55% this year alone)
- Accomodation. Randomness. A couple good friends just left over this issue.

The latest add-ons to Sandpit 3.0 are:
- Augmenting crew responsibilities
- No salary increase + Dubai massive inflation
- Surprise line-checks
- Bonds for upgrades
- Upgrade minimum age
- Custom alcohol/cigarettes ban
- Brief, at 5000ft. Really?
- Hotels by the airport. This is worse than it sounds. Half of the fun is to see places. Half the fun gone.
- Flying with magenta liners. Not horrible. Most of them know their stuff. But it is different than a decade ago, when anybody had 4k hours, mostly jet. Take-overs are more common now...

Having said all this, and before Harry the Cod inserts his tempering reply, I will also say that I have dodged luckily most of the above crap. Only lightly shafted at one point in the progression, and got my command in time with no issues, and no issues since... yet.
I am good to go 'til my next PPC, or surprise line check, or medical, or anything funny like a local driver crashing into me, and have me expelled from the country because it's obviously my fault driving at 90 in the right lane.
I am still a happy chappy. But have to work my mind around to keep it that way.

the Witch

[harry the cod]

desert witch

Well, I'd hate to disappoint.

So, obviously another unhappy camper along with greenfields and that's your prerogative, although I'm pleased to hear that you've not fallen foul of all the issues that both you and he have raised. Funnily enough, nor have the majority of pilots here but many DO fall into the trap of believing everything they hear. It's those stories that perpetuate the fear culture you refer to.

I'm not going to disagree and pull apart your points, neither am I going to say we have a genuine Just culture in EK. We don't. But we all knew that before we came here right? This is the Middle East and unless you are ignorant, stupid or both, you will have realised that caveat before signing on the dotted line. It doesn't make it right but it's unlikely to change, especially with the current incumbents. It's all about blame with a hire and fire culture. HR should support us but rarely do, rather acting on the decisions given at the highest level. Nobody dare challenge our Tim.

This, along with the other issues that concern you will ultimately play a significant part in shaping your view of EK and Dubai. All of our circumstances are different and it takes only a few events to start forming a very negative opinion of our employer. Yes, a poor PPC which results in a review or maybe an impersonal written letter asking about sickness or fuel monitoring. Add in an unhappy wife forced to move to a building site surrounded by a bunch of whinging pilots and your life quickly takes a turn for the worse. 90 hours every month, kids in wrong school, a parent ill at home, along with all the other issues you mention and very quickly we find ourselves in a downward spiral. But, while EK may indeed be responsible for some of these, what many people don't do is take responsibility for their own actions or inaction. They'll look to blame others for situations of their own doing. Do you seriously think that any trainer WANTS to fail a candidate? They don't, but the trainee will often look for excuses rather than having the balls to say "yes, you know what, I fcuked up today". I know from experience, trainers hate having to tell a colleague he or she has not met the minimum standards. They don't do it out of spite, it's done to protect the business and the fare paying public. The GCAA give them that authority and responsibility, not the airline. Which leads me onto a few of your points I'd like to clarify.

Firstly, Captains are NOT downgraded for random reasons. They're downgraded because the Company feels they're not suitable to be in command of the aircraft and when I and you along with millions of fare paying passengers put themselves and their loved ones on a plane, we need to be 100% confident that the Airline is 100% confident too. It doesn't happen often and I can assure you that it's not unique to EK. I know of seven events personally in 15 years, one of which saw the F/O regain his command and is now a competent trainer. One was downgraded due to numerous anger management issues and two lasted only one year in the left seat. Not everyone is suitable for a command.

Secondly, the failure rates you quote are simply not true. The pass rate on the B777 is around 92% and 80% on the 380. Ironically, more candidates fail the initial interview on the Boeing fleet than the bus but once through that stage, become more likely to pass the course.

Finally, the bond was brought in as a result of four pilots gaining their command and leaving almost immediately. Two were from the US and returned there. That was four places that other colleagues could have taken. Now, you could argue that this policy would not need to be implemented if EK was such a great and aspiring airline to work for with industry leading terms and conditions and you know what? Id have to agree with you. But, it isn't and for reasons too numerous to mention, people are leaving. Good people with lots of experience like Goretex, SOPS, the Outlaw, Kaptainlutenant, NeptuneSpear, Uplink and many others. Some may never have considered EK long term but many did or would have liked to. Because of the way this Company is run, their professional attitude and enthusiasm for the job was replaced by frustration and disinterest, evidenced by their posts on these forums.

All they and most of us want to see is an efficiently run airline with competent managers employing well paid and motivated workers. A workforce genuinely empowered to make tactical decisions and to be supported when things go wrong unintentionally and without negligence. To offer an environment where people are treated equally and with respect and as adults, not children. To not only say the right things about how important we are, but to actually SHOW the employees how important they are. To spend time, money and effort investing in front line staff both in calibre and numbers. It's more than just offering fancy seats, cabin lights and the latest technology. It's also about the personal interface between crew and customer. That's what differentiates a great airline from a good one. A consistent, quality product served by attentive and motivated crew.

Sadly, the day Sir MF left this Company was the real noticeable turning point. He would undoubtedly be turning in his grave were he to see how unhappy the cabin crew, engineers and pilots have become. He was a true gentleman and was smart enough to realise the true value of how important a motivated and engaged staff were to the business. We didn't buy our awards then, we earnt them.

So, and I'm sad to say, until we see a like minded gentleman such as Maurice take the helm, this Company will continue it's steady decline, with ever increasing levels of corruption, ineffectual managers, nepotism and incompetence.

Harry

[dubaigong]

Great post Harry , 100% with you on that one...

Only one small remark: Maybe not in EK , but I can tell you that there are some ( even if a very few number ) trainers that " like " to fail fellow pilots just to " feel " their power.

We have at least 2 in our company but I agree 2 out of around 40 trainers is a very small number.

[Fuzuma]

Great post......Very well said.

“This is the Middle East and unless you are ignorant, stupid or both, you will have realised that caveat before signing on the dotted line. It doesn't make it right but it's unlikely to change, especially with the current incumbents”

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Harry The Cod
Firstly, Captains are NOT downgraded for random reasons. They're downgraded because the Company feels they're not suitable to be in command of the aircraft and when I and you along with millions of fare paying passengers put themselves and their loved ones on a plane, we need to be 100% confident that the Airline is 100% confident too.

The Captain demoted to FO for Amsterdam business pax offload is pretty damn wrong.:ugh:

[donpizmeov]

Capt Rex, it was wrong and cowardly. It proved how no-one in this company is on your side when someone thinks they need a scapegoat. The letter he received from JA, and the way they changed what he had been charged with after he proved he acted in accordance with the OMA, proved how all these muppets in the bouncy castle would much rather throw you under a bus than stand up for you.

[SOPS]

Harry makes some valid points in his post.

I take issue with the point that " if you are expecting a just culture, you are stupid" . It is plastered in posters in every lift, for goodness sake, signed by STC himself about the type of safety culture, the company "pretends" to have.

EK presents itself as a world class airline.World class airlines, have a world class safety culture, a just one, with no fear.

So I would think anyone joining EK would have a right to expect just that, a just safety culture.....and I really don't think they are stupid for expecting just that.

[Talparc]

Great post Harry , 100% with you on that one...

Only one small remark: Maybe not in EK , but I can tell you that there are some ( even if a very few number ) trainers that " like " to fail fellow pilots just to " feel " their power.

We have at least 2 in our company but I agree 2 out of around 40 trainers is a very small number.

NC is definitely one of them.

[harry the cod]

Still here Talparc? Thought you would have left years ago judging by you dissatisfaction and non sensical ramblings. (Mr. Wong?) You really need to get a life.

SOPS

Taken slightly out of context in the way I presented the term but point taken. However, surely all potential joiners will have done their research before joining, I did and I'm sure you too. How many pilots genuinely believed that such a culture would be present in this region? You're right though, it should be and we have a right to expect it given the operational pressures and challenges that are present. Unfortunately, perception and reality are often two very different entities, especially here in EK, and it's one of the major reasons why people are not joining. This Company requires 50-60 new recruits per month and at the end of 2017, we received just under 80 in a four and a half month period. Attrition rate was around 4.5% last year, up from an average of 2.8%. Expat airlines will always have a higher than average leaving rate compared to the normal carriers but the current exodus of pilots is concerning.

Capn Rex Havoc

I was mainly referring to training events or issues of a safety concern. You obviously know the event and individual far better than I so couldn't comment, other than to agree with your statement. Regardless of fault, when the upper echelons decide on a verdict, it's very rare to have it overturned. In this Company, it would appear that every department is protecting it's own arse in a fear filled silo of paranoia and bureaucracy. Sticking their necks out against old Timmy would not be in anyones interest. Unless they really ARE stupid!

Harry

[typhoonpilot]

Finally, the bond was brought in as a result of four pilots gaining their command and leaving almost immediately. Two were from the US and returned there. That was four places that other colleagues could have taken.


So the Norwegian who left in 2006 while still in upgrade line training does not count? Don't bring nationality into it Harry. Two Americans left because the U.S. majors are hiring in large numbers so statistically speaking they will be a large percentage of the group leaving. One should never turn down a command and if it just happens that you finish a command and then the airline you applied to a year or two previously calls for an interview you tell them, " no, I need to wait at least a year while you hire 1000 guys who I will lose precious seniority to".

Maybe at one time EK could have engendered that kind of loyalty, but certainly not now. Anybody given a reasonable out is going to jump at it, no matter how recently they finished their command, regardless of nationality. The solution is not to imprison a pilot, it should be to generate loyalty with a lifestyle; pay; and QOL to make them want to stay.

[Monarch Man]

Maybe at one time EK could have engendered that kind of loyalty, but certainly not now. Anybody given a reasonable out is going to jump at it, no matter how recently they finished their command, regardless of nationality. The solution is not to imprison a pilot, it should be to generate loyalty with a lifestyle; pay; and QOL to make them want to stay.

And that quite frankly sums up things rather nicely, an example borne out of reality rather than perception.
EK is by its actions is the perfect example of an organisation that sees nothing other than the Dirhams it can produce. People leaving when it suits them is merely this reality manifesting itself in its purest sense and shows the level of loyalty staff feel towards the organisation, further moves by EK to attempt to make movement more difficult will merely make it more satisfying and life enchancing to depart on your own personal terms.
The feckless wonders in the bouncy castle are the masters and creators of their own mess :ok:

[givemewings]

SOPs I completely agree re: the posters. Only good for loo paper.

I don't think it's ignorant or naive to expect great duck when the restaurant touts it as one of their main dishes, even if said restaurant is in a dodgy part of town. EK present themselves as world class, bang on about safety first til the cows come home but it soon becomes apparent to anyone with a brain this is not the case.

You go to work you do your best to keep things safe and hope that today is not the day you get to eat cheese. But it feels a bit like holding your finger in the dam when many events seem to give evidence that the bottom line is the almighty dirham and not safety.

Rex, I wouldn't have believed the merry bull$h!t dance they led that skipper on if I hadn't got to see the emails for myself. Proves the point that wasta and $$ are worth more.

Absolutely pathetic and probably wins the award for the most pig headed attempt to screw someone over I saw in my time there.

Oh sorry did I say pig? :E

The departure of Sir M was certainly the start of the downward spiral that we now see. I'm glad he's not here to see it I feel it would have broken his heart to see what the company had become

[felixthecat]

Once again it is the stick instead of the carrot. It really would be so easy to invest in the people within the company, instead of just in the infrastructure.

Investing the profits into aircraft, buildings, and not the people is akin to blowing up a balloon and expecting it to remain inflated without tying a knot in it. One less 380, one less 777 or 787 and invest in the people and the returns will be far greater than the lost aircraft.

Management successfully blew up the balloon, then they bought a bigger and bigger balloon without putting any more air into it. No one wants a half inflated balloon.

Invest in people, keep the people that made the company what it was (note, not what it is).

[greenfields]

Harry,

The Company provides an Exit Survey to those leaving. As we all know, it is a box ticking exercise that will never be acted upon. I thought why not share the reasons I had here as well, for prospective new joiners to see so they can make an informed choice? No emotion, merely the facts as I, and all I spoke to before leaving, saw.

In my time there it became very obvious that many suffered from the working equivalent of abusive marriage or battered wife syndrome. They start using statements like 'we are our own worst enemies', 'we brought it upon ourselves because...." the bond is a result of pilots gaining their command and leaving almost immediately." No, it is not the pilots fault for the rules management are making and the way they are treating the employees. There are many 'managers' in EK who would never hold the role they do elsewhere. They act like teenagers with their decision making, and have an extremely immature outlook to the process. In any company a very small percentage of the workforce will do the wrong thing. A good management team will manage those employees. EK does not have a good management team. They have children who overreact and put in place blanket polices to the detriment of the over-whelming number of very good employees that they have. Unfortunately a lot of pilots have reached the stage where they believe they are the cause. They're not. But they have the effects of the long term victim, don't realise that it is unhealthy for them and their family, and are no longer able to see that the working relationship they have with their employer is a working relationship they shouldn't be having with their employer.

I noted elsewhere the comment: "#breakfreeonceandforall." The only time that a change will occur to the disgusting culture of the airline is when they can no longer recruit. Hopefully the people coming on here that paint a very accurate picture of the working life are causing pilots to reconsider their applications and thus dry up the flow of new joiners. Rather than having a go at them, why not realise that they can benefit your cause?

Finally, no I'm not an 'unhappy camper,' in fact I'm very very far from it! That is merely an uninformed opinion that you have made with no basis of fact. I could hazard a guess that it is a judgement you need to make about people who leave and post here, in order to fit your model of why you stay, but without sitting down and talking to you it's not an opinion I can accurately form. So unlike you, I won't make the claim. An ex-employee posting reasons for leaving, or posting anything for that matter, does not equal 'unhappy camper.'

[MaverickPrime]

Not even going to attempt to argue that there is nothing wrong with the ME3. I know people working on the ground for one of them and have an idea of what things are like.

However, I can't help but wonder some things when I see people arguing their points so passionately! So, if y'all are working your fingers to the bone, are fatigued, haven't got time for your family; then how come you have so much time to come on pprune and write carefully drafted posts with excellent punctuation and grammar?

I'd struggle to spell my own name if I was suffering from the levels of fatigue some of you are insinuating.

[pilotguy1222]

Not even going to attempt to argue that there is nothing wrong with the ME3. I know people working on the ground for one of them and have an idea of what things are like.

However, I can't help but wonder some things when I see people arguing there points so passionately! So, if y'all are working your fingers to the bone, are fatigued, haven't got time for your family; then how come you have so much time to come on pprune and write carefully drafted posts with excellent punctuation and grammar?

I'd struggle to spell my own name if I was suffering from the levels of fatigue some of you are insinuating.

When your company puts you up at a $hit hotel AT the airport, there is nothing else to do.

[viking767]

Still staying at the Sheraton in GIG? Not many hotels around the airport there...

[harry the cod]

greenfields

If people leave a Company, then surely they must be unhappy with that Company? Unless of course it's family reasons. I'm not disagreeing with WHY they leave, just that they'd still be here if life was acceptable to them, both personally in Dubai and professionally within EK. I also don't accept the argument that negative posts paint an accurate picture. Accurate posts paint an accurate picture and all of our viewpoints will be unique. From experience, the majority of those in the unhappy camp fall into three categories. Firstly, those mainly from the US that came here for work in 2008-2009 and never really intended staying long term. The second, and perhaps most aggrieved, are the 'victims' of fleet/training, whether justified or not and the third are pilots with personal issues. This will be those with bitter or acrimonious divorce especially where young kids move away. It makes life bloody difficult and commuting now becomes a big stressor too. My point being that our impression of the airline will be based directly on how it effects your own personal well being and lifestyle. There are many genuine concerns and not for one minute would anyone think this place is perfect, far from it. But, and maybe I'm wrong, your post alludes to the fact that these sometimes emotional and embellished posts are justified. Justified in the hope of significantly reducing new joiners and, therefore, force the Company into improving the package? Well, my argument to that is it's not necessary. Just the facts alone are enough to prove we're already falling way behind what other airlines are offering. Post such as that from Yorkshire pudding do us no favours. Is that really from a professional pilot? I shan't even start on Talparc!

TyphoonPilot

Yes, as with a lot of your posts, I agree. However, the reason for highlighting the two US individuals was exactly as you stated. Because that region is now recruiting heavily again, the number of US pilots in EK has reduced dramatically. There were almost 20% here in 2011. Now there are around 11%. The bond is a contentious issue but I would have to ask myself that if their intention was to leave, and they must have known approximately when, is it right to accept the course ahead of someone who would be staying? It's cost in time, precious training manpower and simulator resources that those individuals took when they could have been better utilised for a longer term upgrade candidate. I'm not looking at it entirely from the Companies perspective, more from a selfishly shafting your colleague one, but I can see why the airline imposed it. One individual leaving in 2006 is slightly different to 4 in quick succession in 2017. That statistic clearly reflects how EK is no longer the airline of choice. Unless something dramatic is done within the next 12-18 months, conditions here will only deteriorate further.

YP

Why not spend half an hour looking through the outstation briefs. I think you'll find plenty of hotels away from the airport to make your sad life happier!

Just off the top of my head on the Boeing fleet alone, SEA, MCO, FLL, EZE, BNE, SIN, RGN, HKT, VIE, MUC, GLA, NCL, BUD. There are plenty more.

Harry

[fliion]

Hotels by the numbers

There are 115 listed in Chap 5 of Per Diem Manual with associated contract expiry dates - roughly 20% are airport hotels. (23/115)

Lost of hysteria here lately - can we try to keep it objective.

[fliion]

Yes take note, company policy is now airport hotels across the network. I've run out of places to bid for. just bidding for days off and turns now. How sad. (edit to add 777)

Re my previous post - Chap 5 per diem Manual points out validity of contract with associated hotels - you will note that recent extensions up to 2019 & 2020 are for many hotels not located at airport.

Can you share with us the source of information on this new policy?

[Rainman7]

Ek is a labor camp that just happens to Fly airplanes....same mentality, same abuse, same lies, just the facts jack

[_HAMMER_]

Hello guys, I’ve been following this thread and first I want to thanks everyone for giving us outside the job the the big picture about working for EK beyond flying shiny widebody airplanes.

I recently passed the screening at FZ but to be honest I’m having second thoughts about not considering EK, and since I will be going to the ME, I’m thinking why don’t apply to EK anyway..

I’m very aware of the working conditions you all posted here, however I can’t go anywhere else and I can’t stay home. I might be able to work in EU in the future (I have passport but not EASA license) so I'm planning to be at the ME at least 3-5 years or longer if family is happy and I can keep up with the roster. I think there are not good salaries in EU at least for FO.

So considering this, is it EK that bad comparing it with FZ and not with Europe? There is not much difference in pay, at FZ upgrade is possible within 2-3 years, which means saving more in the short-term (less that 5 years) and get PIC experience to get a better salary in EU afterwards. BUT, what about the experience? I don’t mind flying narrow body that much, it might be more fun and more time at home, but I do care about the experience talking about routes and operation! And of course is nice to get to know places around the world.

I’m considering all this because it might be a good time to get in since they are doing some heavy recruitment, maybe chances are better now. But is it worth it just for the routes and operation? Is it sustainable at least for 5 years with wife and kids? Is the experience and routes worth it more than PIC time on a popular type like the 737 to get a job in Europe as a possible exit plan out of the ME? Is it still allowed to opt out of company accommodation?

Thanks for your comments guys. Safe flights everyone.

[fatbus]

Using PPrune to formulate your decision ? You failed already!

[dubaigong]

Mainly because the company is expanding and also some pilots leaving....

[cerbus]

You will get hired at EK. Don’t worry.

[guts]

You have to be desperate to apply for a job at Emirates. Are you kidding me? Wake up man.

[SOPS]

HAMMER

You realise you are bonded in EK for five years as an FO. And then bonded again as a captain? You only plan to stay 3 years? That is going to cost you $$$$

[nolimitholdem]

If you're thinking of returning to the EU to fly after a stint in the ME, at the very least I would definitely acquire your EASA license before leaving the EU. Trying to complete it with EK rosters and a family will be pretty much impossible and then you're stuck in the ME or resigning to obtain it. Neither scenario is pretty.

[_HAMMER_]

Hello guys, thank you for answering.

You are right, and this is something I'm actually aware of. It would be a lot easier to get the EASA license before the tour to the ME. Unfortunately, I'm not in EU, I don't have the money to pay for it, and I will never save it where I am. I can barely save enough to go to the screenings after months of work.

You realise you are bonded in EK for five years as an FO. And then bonded again as a captain? You only plan to stay 3 years? That is going to cost you $$$$

The plan is to stay as long as I can to save money, learn and enjoy from the experience there and jump to EU as an exit strategy. It would be better if I can make it to 5 years and get the upgrade on the popular NG. Or, IF I can get into EK, then maybe I could have a better overall professional experience committed to at least 5 years and see what happens from there. Having EU again as back up plan if things doesn't improve.

You have to be desperate to apply for a job at Emirates. Are you kidding me? Wake up man.

I really get you guys, but staying at home is just not an option. If I had a stable job in US or EU, I would never think about leaving. Over there I might have to deal with days off and night shifts, but where I am, family and income are in danger. Because of situations like mine, these airlines just keep getting pilots. :ugh:

You will get hired at EK. Don’t worry.

How´s that?

Using PPrune to formulate your decision ? You failed already!

I have no idea how you guys operate there. How it affect family and personal life. I fly mostly day time flights with good WX and plenty of days off. No stress. Which is actually a little boring sometimes. The reason I post here, is one of the ways to get as much information as I can about both jobs to make the best decision I can.

So, since I have to go there anyway, what works best considering operational experience and keeping family happy?

[felixthecat]

Hammer, this is PPRUNE and as such, it is generally somewhere to come when your not happy about something and you want to vent. I don't think I know of a single post where someone has just come to say "WoW this is so great'.

There are pros and cons to every airline you look at joining. The longer you are anywhere the more the cons weigh on your shoulders because when you joined you accepted the baseline conditions as Ok and acceptable for you. Generally, it should be better than where you were since by definition the cons where you are are outweighing the pros or you wouldn't leave.

EK is no different, there are pros and cons. The longer you remain the more candid your thoughts become. In any company, this will happen, even with no changes made to the contract, little niggles thought of as nothing to start become sores after a few years. It is like a marriage, it's wonderful to start with but few are happy after many years.

Unfortunately, there are changes to the contract made regularly and your original baseline is eroded. One day you wake up in the morning and want to bite your arm off as you open your eyes.

Everyone has different reasons and needs. If it is better today and safer for you and your family, then come. Come with your eyes open though and not because you have been swayed by the shiny pictures in the glossy magazines.

[correamd11]

Still staying at the Sheraton in GIG? Not many hotels around the airport there...

No, we have moved.
Very dangerous area now, don’t even think about bidding for it.
I heard the new hotel in CCU is amazing!

[nolimitholdem]

No, we have moved.
Very dangerous area now, don’t even think about bidding for it.!

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Hmmmm.....Brazilian guy trying to improve his chances for bidding GIG?! :)

Oh, ummmm...by the way, JFK is also very, very dangerous...stay away, stay away.

I hear HYD is nice though.

[desert witch]

Hi prospect joiners.

A few new confirmed demotions and failed upgrades have recently reached my ears.

I regrettably do not have access to data, but the numbers some of the posters here are publishing are either old or a lie. Full badges of 6 captain upgrades have failed. To make that a 90% pass rate, EK would have to pass 67 guys in a row without a fail. And as it stands now, 1 out of 4 or 2 out of 6 is pretty much the usual fail rate.

The bar to access the course has also been raised, so that the simulators 2 years in advance of the upgrade are already a pre-command assesment. Some guys are waiting their turn for years now, with no reply to their queries from management.

Then demotions. On Training grounds. Or on the line. In the first or second or third PPC. Not one or two guys.

I flew this year with a handful of demoted fellows.
Looking at the seniority list will problably not help. A good number leave. Can't blame them.

What is the final count then? Add the three:
1 Guys waiting their chance forever
2 Guys Failed
3 Guys demoted soon after

A company has to defend its business, and only put in the left seat a capable individual. Noted. But something is obviously missing. Is it recruiting? Is it training? Is it motivation? Is it fear? Is it too difficult? (answer to the last is NO)

The least experienced badges recruited are soon due to upgrade. We are talking ATPL + 4 EK Years. Then upgrade in a biiiig jet with a large Sheikh painted on it that goes literally everywhere. What then? New sessions and courses have been implemented already. Nil fix.

As someone already said, this company is Hire and Fire. You are recruited whatever your standards, then through the grinder, if you pass, fine, if not, disposed of. Initial, PPC, or Upgrade. You wanna leave? I sure hope you are not bonded right now.

Aiming to be fair, most trainers try to do just that, train. So if the trainers are not purposely failing trainees, does it mean we are just not good enough? How is that so? I do not see anyone either in training or fleet trying to reverse the situation. They have failed.

But ultimately it is us that take the strain.

[what_goes_up]

Desert witch
I do not have the numbers about demotions and/or failures. There is just a few things, I would like to shed another light on. Trainer don't fail anyone. It's examiners that fail. Trainers conduct a training session and if unable to train to a minimum required standard they have to give a developing grade in order to allow training management to assign additional training. If too many additional trainings are required, fleet gets involved to decide if training should be continued or not. It's not even Training Management to do this.
If a developing grade is awarded it could be the trainers inability to train properly or, from what I have experienced more likely, the "material" to work with is not trainable in the time available.
Certainly some of the newer joiners are not of the same average standard as about 10+ years ago. We still get excellent pilots which never have a problem. But we get more than before of the other type as well. Career prospects, roster issues, leave issues... you name it, makes it more difficult to attract the required quality. Don't blame the trainers, nor the examiners if they don't lower the bar.
Unfortunately not all pilots are quite as good as they think they are.
Should the company provide more time to train? Yes absolutely (and thinking back to my upgrade preparation, or lack of, they do). But this is not the trainer's nor Training Management's decision. That goes to OPS Management and is all about money. How much can safety cost....
Not trying to defend anyone's position, just a few thoughts from the inside.

[Monarch Man]

What goes up, I think for those looking, you make a fair point from your perspective.
Perspective, it’s a funny old thing as they say. From my perspective I’d argue our training and checking department are just as complicit as our moronic and short sighted management, to me it is an individuals’ choice as to why they continue to maintain the charade that they the “trainers” are just like the rest of us on the line. To me the calculus is rather obvious, if you are intergral to imparting and enforcing policy in a training role you have sided with your own self interest and are completely fine with the house of cards as it crumbles down around you one card at a time.
Perspective being what it is, I’m certain many will disagree with me, but when asked directly by MM a number of years ago why I wasn’t yet involved in training I gave him my honest assessment of his department, his management and the people he was directly responsible for, I also made a number of predictions related to the standards of line pilots v the standard of trainers and how that will only continue in one certain direction. We have had virtually no contact since that day.

[PositiveRate876]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Hmmmm.....Brazilian guy trying to improve his chances for bidding GIG?! :)

Oh, ummmm...by the way, JFK is also very, very dangerous...stay away, stay away.

I hear HYD is nice though.


Terrible mosquitos in MRU!!
I have a friend who has a friend who spent 6 hours on the bus to the LAX hotel.


;)

[glofish]

Don't blame the trainers, nor the examiners if they don't lower the bar

Not blaming them, but how do you want to lower the bar below 400 hours on type after upgrade to become a trainer ..... ?
You can't effectively train what you don't master yourself. Especially if you don't even know that you don't master it.
A lot of trainers are now part of the problem and have become complicit with the ugly local race to the bottom.

[what_goes_up]

Not blaming them, but how do you want to lower the bar below 400 hours on type after upgrade to become a trainer ..... ?
You can't effectively train what you don't master yourself. Especially if you don't even know that you don't master it.
A lot of trainers are now part of the problem and have become complicit with the ugly local race to the bottom.
Glo, I don't argue with you on that. But you might also have realised, that those LTC will not train Upgraders on the line (where you need experience to teach the captains stuff) and as of now, those low hour guys will be TRI restricted and only teach transition sims and day 3 UPRT until gaining more experience. Again, not defending that it happens, but at least they try to mitigate the threats... ;)

[donpizmeov]

Mitigating the threats would be adjusting the EK T and Cs to retain their pilots. A total net loss in pilot numbers last year when those joining were outnumbered by those leaving. By stopping pilots leaving with a improved package and conditions, training requirements would fall dramatically, and low houred trainers would not be needed.
So what is happening now is not mitigating risk. It's trying to make the best of the position they backed themselves into.

[what_goes_up]

Mitigating the threats would be adjusting the EK T and Cs to retain their pilots. A total net loss in pilot numbers last year when those joining were outnumbered by those leaving. By stopping pilots leaving with a improved package and conditions, training requirements would fall dramatically, and low houred trainers would not be needed.
So what is happening now is not mitigating risk. It's trying to make the best of the position they backed themselves into.
Do, I agree with you as well. But this again is out of Training (managemet's) hands. NCC and OPS management say how many to train and training has to deliver. With mitigating I meant what training management is able to do.
Don't take me wrong. I am not trying to defend malpractice here. I am just saying that the shooting is often going into the wrong direction (training).
It's like the pax that is held back by Security, has problems at check-in, didn't get the miles upgrade that he was asking for and lots of other things not working and then offloads at the flight attendants, just because they are available.

[Monarch Man]

I am just saying that the shooting is often going into the wrong direction (training).

Couldn’t disagree more, Training are facilitating, individuals have to take individual responsibility for their actions, to me that means nothing short of resigning from the dept on a point of principle, but egos being what they are mean many can’t accept that their actions or inaction continues to help facilitate the malpractice that we see each day. (It’s not my fault, I was only following orders)
Don, if what you are saying is true on the 777, how are they even keeping up?

[donpizmeov]

It is true Monach. The reduction of flights and parking of aircraft got them through. The hiring of a bit over 800 this year is the future. They have it well in hand, nothing to see here.

[Monarch Man]

Why don’t they hire 900? 800 is too easy for the master-race.

[donpizmeov]

Exactly. Only need 80 new bodies a month. A walk in the park.

[SOPS]

80 new bodies a month? Does that include replacing the bodies that continue to walk out the door?

What does all this training cost?

What does it cost compared to the cost of making it a place where people want to stay, and experienced pilots want to come to...just like in "the good old days".

They really are a bunch of muppets.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Python27]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Hmmmm.....Brazilian guy trying to improve his chances for bidding GIG?! :)

Oh, ummmm...by the way, JFK is also very, very dangerous...stay away, stay away.

I hear HYD is nice though.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/16/brazilian-army-rio-de-janeiro-michel-temer?

GIG can't be thaaat bad huh?

[allaru]

Issues with open skies may result in a very short career indeed for new joiners.

[desert witch]

Hello everyone!! (no, I am not him)
I talked recently with an FO that did not pass his upgrade. Nice fellow. I was not aware that the upgrade bond applied even if one did not pass the course. Because, obviously, they gave one a type rating (and another bit to get back to the right seat), but one has been useless and is not going to use it through no fault of the company. He asked in the office, and the nice lady in abaya told him that if the company considers good will and he decides to leave earlier than two years, they MAY waive it. Or they may not..., your guess.
So this is yet ANOTHER HEADS UP FOR NEW JOINERS, who think they can not fail stuff in this company because they never failed anything before. YES, YOU CAN.
And I am not even sure what happens with the joining bond if one fails the joining course.

The waters have settled well, after (lots of) recent stuff.
3 man ULR seems a problem of the past, when in reality we are starting to do it next week.
Mr B. is trying (I genuinely think he is) to communicate more. But I am afraid that's not going to bring much. Some SAA and next door chaps will try and join in secondment. Let's see if that works and if it solves anything.
Other issues seem long gone problems. Most of them due to lack of crew. THEY ARE STILL THERE. Worth taking a look at the thread start, but just as a snack:
-Work-life balance gone
-Punitive Culture
-Annual leave & Rostering. Request anything. Get anything else.
-Loss of real income (massive Dubai inflation, no salary increase)
-The random and exciting ways in which contract is breached or changed (age to upgrade changes shafted many)
-Demotions, failed upgrades, wrong training mentality, surprise line-checks
-Accomodation (can not opt out once in company accomodation, example of breach of contract)
-New customs rules (can't bring alcohol and other stuff as crew)
-Hotels by the airport, not in the city.

Point being... think twice before joining. It is far easier not to join than to leave. Specially if you are all bonded.
This used to be a star job. More like a white dwarf now.

Cheers.
Desert Witch

[IHEK]

Great post Desert Witch, balanced and factually correct.

I agree with your biggest statement, think twice about joining EK guys and girls.