Emergency Exits

[Dangly Bits]

So if Virgin are now charging extra for an emergency exit seat, and no one buys one for the flight, who operates the emergency exit in the event of an accident? I noticed on a recent flight with empty seats that when a gentleman moved to an empty exit row after take-off, he was politely asked to pay for the upgrade or get out! He moved out of the completely vacant exit row.

[Ken Borough]

when a gentleman moved to an empty exit row after take-off, he was politely asked to pay for the upgrade or get out!

Charming! Is this any way to treat a 'guest'? And I bet it'll be quite a while before the said gentleman ventures onto a VA aircraft again.

[andmiz]

Exit rows don't have to be occupied. The regulations only cover the type of person that must sit in them, if they are occupied.

To answer your question: Who operates the exit....? The first person to get to it!

[airtags]

Emergency exits where operated by pax (eg 738's o'wing etc) do require exit row to be occupied - refer Operator manual
AT

[PoppaJo]

Few years back we didn’t have enough pax onboard for the exits (A320). Return was full so they asked some ground staff to go along to fill the seats to avoid cancellation.

[missy]

The first person to get to it!

So rather than have someone who has been briefed on the operation of the emergency exit the airline would prefer someone who hasn't been briefed.
Interesting.

[Cleared Visual]

Charming! Is this any way to treat a 'guest'? And I bet it'll be quite a while before the said gentleman ventures onto a VA aircraft again.

And sadly not surprising. On a VA flight over the Christmas holidays an elderly passenger seated behind me started to become ill and requested a blanket - apparently Virgin are "trialling" having customers pay for blankets, and on this occasion they had sold out. The apologetic cabin crew instead said they would turn up the temperature in the cabin by a few degrees (no fault on theirs, at least they tried to assist) which helped the poor lady, but made for a rather uncomfortable flight for many of the rest of us... I was already annoyed at this lack of regard for passenger health and comfort, but reading about the exit row charges and potential safety implications, I too will think twice about booking with VA again any time soon.

[bsmasher]

Qlink Dash 8 last week. They asked for volunteers to fill in the last seat in the exit row. ... I got a bit more legroom (-:

[atakacs]

Few years back we didn’t have enough pax onboard for the exits (A320). Return was full so they asked some ground staff to go along to fill the seats to avoid cancellation.

Hmm you had less than 4 able adults on the outbound leg? Seems quite the edge case...

And what happened to said ground crew on the fully booked return leg?

[maggot]

Hmm you had less than 4 able adults on the outbound leg? Seems quite the edge case...

And what happened to said ground crew on the fully booked return leg?
Iirc we needed 2 at each overwing IE. 8 per flight on the 738. It's been a while tho

[Capn Bloggs]

Few years back we didn’t have enough pax onboard for the exits (A320).
I'll call "dodgy" on that too, Atakacs!

We did have a rule that below XX pax, there was no requirement for pax in Exit rows. Now, if there are any pax on board, the exit rows get filled in order. If you don't have the number of pax to fill all the exit row seats, we certainly don't cancel the flight!

Poppa, come on, out with the True News!! :=

[turbantime]

If under a certain number of pax, exit rows do not need to be filled in line with CASA requirements.

Only ABP’s may be seated in the exit row and must be briefed so you can’t just have anyone moving in there without a briefing (CASA requirement).

On top of that, these are sold as extra revenue seats (economy x). Letting just anyone sit there would be akin to letting anyone into J class just because the seat/row was free.

Just to be clear, if no one has purchased exit row seats and number of pax now requires exit row to be filled, they will be filled by pax. Ground crew will in this case issue seat changes to meet the requirements.

[sunnybunny]

So... If the numbers required an exit seat being filled and if a Non ABP bought the exit seat would they be told to move and the seat given to an ABP?

[turbantime]

Correct, you have to be an ABP to be seated in overwing exit row. Ground crew will assess in the first instance and then cabin crew also have power to move non-ABP out. Affected pax will then be refunded the amount paid for said row. Mind you, when you select exit row online, system makes you check a box ensuring you know the requirements to be seated in exit row.

[AerocatS2A]

I have been offered an exit seat by Virgin gate staff when it became apparent they didn't have enough.

[PoppaJo]

I'll call "dodgy" on that too, Atakacs!

We did have a rule that below XX pax, there was no requirement for pax in Exit rows. Now, if there are any pax on board, the exit rows get filled in order. If you don't have the number of pax to fill all the exit row seats, we certainly don't cancel the flight!

Poppa, come on, out with the True News!! :=

Unfortunately was the case. My previous employer was under the close watch of the regulator at one stage, who at one point was given a over and above set of rules to follow in order to operate.

[wheels_down]

I assume you are referring to the Tiger grounding and the million restrictions CASA slapped on them in order to operate right after.. I assume these were all lifted so would be a one off

[Chris2303]

Correct, you have to be an ABP to be seated in overwing exit row. Ground crew will assess in the first instance and then cabin crew also have power to move non-ABP out. Affected pax will then be refunded the amount paid for said row. Mind you, when you select exit row online, system makes you check a box ensuring you know the requirements to be seated in exit row.

QF don't refund EROW charges unless ineligible pax call at least 24 hours prior departure

[atakacs]

Fwiw I remember flying a pretty empty AirBerlin 321 with passengers only at the extreme ends of the cabin. The emergency rows all remained empty.
When I enquired to cabin crew about this they explained it was for weight and balance.

[Capn Bloggs]

Fwiw I remember flying a pretty empty AirBerlin 321 with passengers only at the extreme ends of the cabin. The emergency rows all remained empty.
There should be some commonsense applied. If there's only twenty pax on board with at least 3 FAs, why on earth do all the overwing exit seats have to be full of ABPs?

They could all get out of one of the main doors in a few seconds, without needing to use the OWs.

[WingNut60]

On a Lion flight UPG - DPS day before yesterday; lady and two small kids in exit row. I was waiting to see what would happen.

Cabin staff checked seat allocation; obviously incorrectly allocated.
Cabin crew then arrange swap for (young) ABP's from rear of aircraft.

Lion don't always get it wrong.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

A typical mindset from our airlines. They'll use anything, in this case a piece of safety equipment, as a means of increasing profit. If no one wants to pay, the exit potentially goes unopened in an emergency.

[WingNut60]

While emergency row seats may offer a little more legroom, there are frequent trade-offs;


rigid arm rest / seat dividers
no recline
no drop down tray
IFE screen that much further away, if at all
no seat back pocket for documents, books, etc.
no bags under the seat in front (added, with thanks to Capn Bloggs)

... don't see the value myself. Certainly wouldn't pay extra to use one.

[Dragun]

Charming! Is this any way to treat a 'guest'? And I bet it'll be quite a while before the said gentleman ventures onto a VA aircraft again.

The exit rows are now designated a different product - "Economy X".

This example is no different from someone who has paid for Economy X moving themselves into a business class seat after take off. If they're moved out of the BC seat, should they then spit the dummy and not fly that airline again?

Before people start banging on about what product is what and why it should or shouldn't be or called what, I'm just pointing out that it's essentially the same example. Most people accept that if someone hasn't paid for a business class seat then they shouldn't be allowed to go sit in one after take off just because it's empty. No difference here.

Regarding the emergency exits (now designated Economy X at VA), there is no requirement if less than or equal to 144 pax that anyone be seated in them. If > 144 pax then there must be 2 x ABPs in each exit row, meaning a total of 8 ABPs for the two rows on either side of the aircraft. This is written into the Virgin manuals but I can't speak for other airlines.

[Dangly Bits]

Thank you Dragun you explained it perfectly and with facts. I would have to say that there would have been less than 144 people on board so hence the empty exit rows.
Cheers

[Capn Bloggs]

Dragun, seriously? Sitting in an economy seat that is precisely the same (worse, in a lot of aspects as pointed out by Wingnut) as every other economy seat save a few extra inches of legroom is nothing like jumping into a biz seat when you didn't pay for it.

I suppose that, when a pax "volunteers" to seat in an exit row by the FAs, you'd then charge them?

I agree with GFV. Beancounter mindset.

Wingnut, add to your list no bags under the seat in front.

[Capn Bloggs]

Does the 737 have a requirement for pax in the exit rows with <144 pax?

[Altimeters]

Does the 737 have a requirement for pax in the exit rows with <144 pax?

Nope. :ok:

[Kelly Slater]

One of the cheapest extra safety measures an airline can employ is to identify paxing crew from their own or any other airline and seat them in an emergency exit row. Used to be a completely free option and still is if no one has chosen to pay for the seat beforehand.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

If the responsibility for operating an overwing exit is ultimately left to the ABP who paid for or was operationally required to be moved into the seat, then surely the cheapest extra safety measure is to (as well as briefing said pax), explain their operation to the rest of the pax during the preflight safety speil (I know, I know!). Just because there is not enough pax to have to fill the exit rows , or no one has paid extra for them , shouldn't automatically discount their use.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

If, by paying for one of the appropriate seats I agree to become, in some small way, part of the airlines way of meeting their operational requirements, they should be paying me, not me paying them extra for the "privilege".

[Dragun]

Dragun, seriously? Sitting in an economy seat that is precisely the same (worse, in a lot of aspects as pointed out by Wingnut) as every other economy seat save a few extra inches of legroom is nothing like jumping into a biz seat when you didn't pay for it.

I suppose that, when a pax "volunteers" to seat in an exit row by the FAs, you'd then charge them?

I agree with GFV. Beancounter mindset.

Wingnut, add to your list no bags under the seat in front.

Always someone on here wanting to start an argument. I've literally already addressed your comment in my first post - "Before people start banging on about what product is what and why it should or shouldn't be or called what, I'm just pointing out that it's essentially the same example."

Once again, for the dummies, I'm not arguing the merits of whether or not it should be a different product, all I'm stating is the facts. It is a different product and therefore the same requirements apply as if someone from economy tried to sit in business class.

If you want to argue whether or not it should be a different product, call someone who cares, which will more than likely involve getting on your high horse in an email to the airline itself. :hmm:

[WingNut60]

Always someone on here wanting to start an argument........
If you want to argue whether or not it should be a different product, call someone who cares, which will more than likely involve getting on your high horse in an email to the airline itself. :hmm:

I see your point and agree that you have a point.
But as for starting an argument, I don't believe that I or Capn Bloggs did so. Dragun was a bit more emphatic.
We merely stated our point of view.

Regarding these seats being a different product, that will be decided ultimately by the market; not by marketing.
But I will point out that this marketing strategy is not universally applied. In fact, I think it would be applicable only to a minority of airlines, not the majority.
Which raises the question, why.

[Lookleft]

Except your example is flawed. Business Class is physically a different seat and it is also a different service level. The exit rows have extra leg room due to regulatory requirements so are not a different "product" in the same way escape slides are not a different product to stairs. The passenger sitting in the exit row has to be willing and able to assist in an emergency. For that responsibility the airline is now charging the passenger for the privilege. It should be the other way around, the passenger should get a discount on their fare.

[Dragun]

It's not flawed at all. It's deemed a different product by the airline and the passengers pay a different amount for that seat. If someone who hasn't paid for it sits in it, it's no different on the simple basis of paying a different amount for whatever it deemed to be different.

I'll say it again, the specifics of what you or I consider to be worthy of a different product are irrelevant i.e. a different seat and different service levels. The airline has decided that more leg room is to be a different product and on that basis alone they charge more for it and therefore if you haven't paid for it, you can't sit there - that's it. I didn't say I agreed with it but it is what it is.

[WingNut60]

.... and therefore if you haven't paid for it, you can't sit there - that's it. I didn't say I agreed with it but it is what it is.

You are quite correct. You didn't pay for it, ergo, you can not use it.

But any sane airline management would be asking why the seat was empty in the first place. Refer list in my post # 23, above.
You can always convince someone that sitting on a pointy stick is a premium product (coz it costs more?), but not me.

[Ascend Charlie]

I have seen many occasions where a very fat person has paid for, and got, the exit row seat.

They appeared to be unable to turn to the side to open the window, and if they were too stunned by an emergency landing to do so, nobody could get past them to get out.

Same with very old people - the airline wants their bucks and doesn't care that they couldn't operate the exit.

[sinala1]

The Economy X product includes more than just the seat at the overwing (or the first 3 rows of Economy on the B738, depending on which seat you've chosen):

Economy X guests travelling on Domestic flights will receive:
Priority Screening (where available)
Priority Boarding (where available)
Greater legroom at the front of the Economy Cabin or in the over wing exits
Preferred overhead locker space
https://www.velocityfrequentflyer.com/content/ProgramBenefits/LatestNews/economy-x/

So yes, the crew are required to protect the integrity of the product. Regardless of whether people believe it should be sold as a product or not (these economy comfort style products are common practice in the USA for the record), as stated above the reality is it IS sold as a separate product and is treated as such. And if an economy X paying passenger does not meet exit row requirements, they're able to be seated in other non-exit row economy X seats.

[megan]

So rather than have someone who has been briefed on the operation of the emergency exit the airline would prefer someone who hasn't been briefedSeems odd that there is a requirement for a person to be briefed on the operation if seated in the row, but the row can remain empty and no one is briefed. It's an important bit of safety equipment and I'd assume that's the reason for a seat occupant to be personally briefed, to ensure someone knows how to get the thing open, rather than the usual cattle who pay no attention to the general briefing or read the card. Airline opening itself to litigation if no one is seated in the row and personally briefed and the worse occurs, people die because they don't know how to open? Mind you, they may make the Darwin award line up for not paying attention to the general brief and card.

[Heathrow Harry]

Last year I was on a Very empty BA flight in Europe. There were no passengers in the seats by the emergency over- wing exit and the staff asked a young guy if he's sit there for takeoff and landing

He did but moved himself back to his booked seat in flight as he could work better there


V strange......................

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Economy X transforms your Economy travel experience.
If that is all it takes to "transform" the experience, VA Economy travel must be ****e
And if an economy X paying passenger does not meet exit row requirements, they're able to be seated in other non-exit row economy X seats.
What happens if the unlikely occurs and none of them do? Is one randomly chosen to be "downgraded" and a random AB pax "upgraded"?

[WingNut60]

What the ??? Pure spin, nothing else.



Economy X guests travelling on Domestic flights will receive:

Priority Screening (where available)
Priority Boarding (where available)
Greater legroom at the front of the Economy Cabin or in the over wing exits
Preferred overhead locker space


The only thing from the above list that you could reliably expect, from a practical point of view, is the legroom.

[Pearly White]

“Transform” is another one of these words that gets overused/abused by marketers, CEOs and spin doctors. Seems unlikely the whole xperience is radically changed just because you get a seat that someone else locks upright for critical flight phases.

[peuce]

Geez, you blokes mustn't have traveled much overseas. It's common to charge for the exit rows on most airlines overseas. If no one pays, they are empty. If you haven't paid, you don't get to sit in them. It's all very simple.

For me, whenever I can, I buy. I love the extra legroom...and I'm happy to pay for the privilege.

[WingNut60]

So you like flying with a seat with:


rigid arm rest / seat dividers
no recline
no drop down tray
probably no IFE screen
no seat back pocket for documents, books, etc.
no bags under the seat in front

Geez, you blokes mustn't have traveled much overseas.

Very poor assumption. Until my retirement two years ago I was doing 500+ hrs / year as SLF on all continents except South America and the Antarctic.

It's common to charge for the exit rows on most airlines overseas......

Not my observation at all. Common? Yes, possibly. Most airlines? Definitely not.

However I do think that we probably need to differentiate between the over-wing emergency exits in the narrow-bodies and the "near the door" seats on wide-bodies, for which no user restrictions seem to apply.
I can see some value in those seats and might burn a few points to use one.

But the restrictions associated with being seated in the narrow-body, over-wing exits is a different kettle of fish.

Oh, and I last flew in one of those seats nine days ago. My allocated seat, not my choice and not selected. No additional cost. And no pretense that it any way represented a premium service.

[arkmark]

Originally Posted by peuce View Post
It's common to charge for the exit rows on most airlines overseas......

Sure it's common, for Air Asia.

Virgin Australia wants to be Air Asia ?

They sure as hell are working hard at it.

[AerocatS2A]

So you like flying with a seat with:


rigid arm rest / seat dividers
no recline
no drop down tray
probably no IFE screen
no seat back pocket for documents, books, etc.
no bags under the seat in front







I don’t care about the seat dividers. I don’t care about the recline though some cabin crew will unlock the recline in flight anyway. In my experience there are drop down trays and a seat back pocket and an IFE screen (B737 overwing exit rows.) I like to put my legs under the seat in front, not bags.

That said, I don’t pay for exit rows, but normally I don’t pay to fly anyway and when I do pay, I have other considerations such as getting a row with a bassinet. My biggest priority when traveling by myself is to have a seat with no one next to me.

[Buckshot]

And you are guaranteed to be last to disembark being exactly half way between the forward and rear doors