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meadowrun
14th Jan 2018, 17:52
...be like now if, there had not been the Second World War?


I have my own ideas, but would rather hear yours.

Pontius Navigator
14th Jan 2018, 18:40
Married women would still largely be home makers rather than workers. The working week would remain nearer 48 hours than 37 as fewer employees in the job pool. Banks would still be staffed and used as computers are only now being introduced.

The merchant ships would be a generation further on but aviation one or two generations earlier. The Navy would have a global presence with squadrons in many parts of the world. The army would be largely comprii of infantry to police the colonies. The air force, having relinquished biplanes by the 50s, would have expanded its 'traditional' air policing role and replaced the army in East Africa and parts of the Sub Continent.

To secure future oil supplies the Army would assist the Shah in resisting Russian expansion. Russia would continued to steal Western technology but with little success given its backward industrial base.

Germany continues its post-Versailles recovery and expanded its influence in France and exploiting French fiscal resources.

BehindBlueEyes
14th Jan 2018, 18:42
Do you mean in as; if we’d accepted that Nazi domination was inevitable so we might as well accept it and not got involved when Hitler invaded Poland? Or, if history had been different and there had been no rise of Fascism so consequently, no aggression?

If it’s the former, I think it would have been very similar to the SS-GB novel by Len Deighton (not the TV series) Lots of collaboration with some personal scores being settled, some regular local unrest from underground factions and Edward VIII obediently acting as a moral figurehead for the occupiers. We would have had German as our main tongue and widespread ethnic cleansing although I gather the Nazis actually saw Britain as the Motherland and believed we were pretty ethnically pure and therefore, would have been good breeding stock.

Had Hitler been satisfied with just our occupation, and not further expansionism, I guess the Americans would have continued to deal with our new masters, providing they didn’t further their plans and eye up the New World.

cavortingcheetah
14th Jan 2018, 18:42
Britain would be an overpopulated island joined to Germany by a land bridge built by the Führer as a gift to the British people for not having gone to war with him. There would be no Christmas tree in Trafalgar Square and the British propensity for drunkenness would be almost eradicated.
The population would be overwhelmingly white, the Empire Windrush never having docked at all. German and English would be the master languages and Sundays would be sacrosanct, not for worship but as a day for the family.
The British diet would be regulated by central government to ensure that each citizen received a wholesome and balanced foodstuff structure.
Britain's armed forces would be a major employer of manpower being well supported financially by the government and responsible for keeping the peace within the Commonwealth.
etc and so forth.

Or:

If you remember the reality, which is that Dunkirk nearly didn't happen because the dockers were on strike at the time, Britain would be a Communist vassal state of the USSR. Remember the cranes at Churchill's funeral? They dipped not in salutation but in mockery of him.
So, Britain as a friend and ally of the greater German Reich or as a slave state to the Russians? Perhaps this year Momentum will come closer to demonstrating the reality you'd really rather not know about.
Nazdrovia!

meadowrun
14th Jan 2018, 18:46
Actually, no.
What if all that misery never started - ie: Germany or Italy or Japan never started a fight with anyone.

SARF
14th Jan 2018, 18:52
I agree with the second poster. We would be about 20 years behind technologically and socially .. 1998. Ugh

fitliker
14th Jan 2018, 19:01
Or if Rudolph Hess had been successful with his mission in Scotland ?
The EU totalitarian state would have been created sooner with a slightly more fascist flavour ,than the present Berlin Marxist Directives from the former Stasi Stooges of Merkel and Shultz :)

cavortingcheetah
14th Jan 2018, 19:12
If no one had started a fight with anyone then the British Empire would still exist, Edward VIII would never have abdicated, Eddie the Emperor having much to fine a music hall turn of phrase for him to dump it. The Empire Windrush would still never have got to the UK and it would be perfectly acceptable to speak as does El Trumpo, the Greens mostly having gone off to till farms in the Australian outback and tend sheep in New Zealand.

edi_local
14th Jan 2018, 19:14
Had there been no WW2 (other posters talking about had we lost...the OP is asking had there not been one at all) then I don't think much different would have happened. The empire would still have faded away in much the same way. Even with the unifying force that was WW2, the empire didn't last much longer afterwards. Without that then there would have been even less reason for it to remain.

I am not sure what national pride would be based on without WW2 and the bulldog spirit etc. Our false superiority complex we hold over foreigners would probably not exist either because we would not have this huge thing to hang on to and constantly say we won, or others owe us something for it. We may even have a more continental flair in the UK as there would be no looking down our noses at the rest of Europe.

I doubt there would be an EU or specifically, the basis for it wouldn't be needed. No war would mean no real need to create everlasting peace or reunify the continent. No WW2 would have presumably meant no Cold War either. Europe wouldn't have been split in 2. European cooperation would have just been the natural stance, presumably. There would have probably been no real migration from East to West, although I suppose the Soviet Union would have perhaps failed earlier without the Cold War to keep it together. That may have forced a lot to move.

Gertrude the Wombat
14th Jan 2018, 19:25
Our false superiority complex we hold over foreigners would probably not exist either
Yes, it's for-sure that we would not be one of five holders of permanent seats on the UN Security Council.

MG23
14th Jan 2018, 19:58
Yes, it's for-sure that we would not be one of five holders of permanent seats on the UN Security Council.

Well, yes. Without WWII, the UN wouldn't exist.

But WWII was pretty much inevitable as a continuation of the unfinished business of WWI.

A better question might be: what would Britain be like if we'd stayed out of it, and left Hitler and Stalin's armies to beat themselves to death fighting over the Soviet Union? With millions of German men dead, Britain might well have been the powerhouse of Europe afterwards.

hiflymk3
14th Jan 2018, 20:09
I wonder how many of us would be here if it wasn't for the Second World War. My parents met because of and during WW2.

ExXB
14th Jan 2018, 20:10
Well, yes. Without WWII, the UN wouldn't exist.

It would. But it would be called the League of Nations, headquarter in Geneva.

Gertrude the Wombat
14th Jan 2018, 20:42
I wonder how many of us would be here if it wasn't for the Second World War.
I wouldn't be here if the Germans had taken over the UK and murdered all the Jews here.

Nemrytter
14th Jan 2018, 20:52
Britain would be an overpopulated island joined to Germany by a land bridge built by the Führer as a gift to the British people for not having gone to war with him. There would be no Christmas tree in Trafalgar Square and the British propensity for drunkenness would be almost eradicated.
The population would be overwhelmingly white, the Empire Windrush never having docked at all. German and English would be the master languages and Sundays would be sacrosanct, not for worship but as a day for the family.
The British diet would be regulated by central government to ensure that each citizen received a wholesome and balanced foodstuff structure.
Britain's armed forces would be a major employer of manpower being well supported financially by the government and responsible for keeping the peace within the Commonwealth.
etc and so forth.Gosh, sounds like you almost approve of this notion. I hope I misread. :yuk:

Espada III
14th Jan 2018, 21:11
I wouldn't be here if the Germans had taken over the UK and murdered all the Jews here.

And me. Also killing all the Jews of Europe would have slowed the technological advances seen during and since the war.

Mechta
14th Jan 2018, 21:16
The Japanese may still be in Manchuria, the Italians may still be in Ethiopia, Abyssinia and Ethiopia, the Germans in Sudetenland and Austria.
Sixty million people may have had a longer life span than they did in reality, although with delayed benefit from the drugs that would have had slower rate of development.

funfly
14th Jan 2018, 22:36
I wonder how many people today realise how close a thing it was, the debate was not about Hitler and his nasty ways but about should we honour an old treaty?
Many people think that if Hitler had captured the UK things might have stabilised, however just remember how the French and the Dutch were treated and this could have been us.
Never forget how Edward 8th. after his abdication (plus other royals) tried to arrange union with Germany.
Similar situation in 1914 but the outcome of Germany overrunning the UK might not have been too bad long term and would have certainly saved many millions of lives..

cavortingcheetah
14th Jan 2018, 22:56
I think that, had the Germans overrun the UK, they'd have given up on the place sooner or later, rather as did the Romans. The thing is though that the horrible Hun, in those days of course, not today's nice Jerry, would have populated the British Isles with the dross of the rest of its empire. That wouldn't have made much difference in Britain of course, except for a certain fortuity of multi lingual capability but it would certainly have taken the bolshie strain out of the German territories in Africa.

G-CPTN
14th Jan 2018, 23:08
It is interesting to ponder the contrast between the former East Germany and 'West' Germany with 40 years of neglect against rich Industrial Development.

Krystal n chips
15th Jan 2018, 06:35
The Mail would have printed countless editions calling for alignment with Germany ( under the then regime )....and.....that goal would never have happened.

And Dover would just be another seaside resort...like Margate, only worse, if that's possible.

Wingswinger
15th Jan 2018, 06:47
Counter-factual history can be a great guessing game.

World navies would probably still be using battleships and cruisers.
Armies would not have created parachute regiments and special forces.
Nuclear weapons might not have been created.

The EU wouldn't exist but the Third Reich would and it may have expanded peacefully.
Europe would never have been divided by communism.
Unlike others I think The Empire might still exist with stronger links to CANAUSNZ.

The Labour Party under Attlee might not have won the 1945 GE and Britain might never have had the tsunami of nationalisation and socialism that followed WW2 (we won the war, let's win the peace). The NHS wouldn't be here. Widespread social deference might still exist.

On a personal level my father would not have been an RAF pilot and consequently neither would I have been which means I would not have met Mrs WS and my offspring would not exist. I therefore would not have been an airline pilot (probably). I think I could still have been here because my father and mother lived on the same street in Glasgow. However, their marriage probably would not have happened when it did (in WW2) so their offspring would have been born at a different time and would therefore probably be different people. Alternatively, they may not have married at all because the war-time influences on them would not have been present. I, if I existed, would probably never have left Glasgow and I would speak with a different accent and have a different outlook on life. Who knows, I might even have been a socialist or a supporter/member of the SNP!

funfly
15th Jan 2018, 14:16
I might even have been a socialist

God, how bad is that thought?

John Marsh
15th Jan 2018, 16:00
BehindBlueEyes:

Had Hitler been satisfied with just our occupation, and not further expansionism, I guess the Americans would have continued to deal with our new masters, providing they didn’t further their plans and eye up the New World.Hitler, 1941:

I shall no longer be there to see it, but I rejoice on behalf of the German people at the idea that one day we will see England and Germany marching together against America.
From Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944 His Private Conversations

Some esoteric sources claim that all probabilities are actualised. All permutations within history are real.

Furthermore, it's all 'happening now'. Our familiar linear time is a product of how we create our experience(s). So: the world in which Hitler won is just as real as this world, and it exists now. The usual limits of our perception prevent us from seeing it. Thankfully.

All great stuff to ponder on a 3AM visit to the loo!:E

Fareastdriver
15th Jan 2018, 16:36
Hitler had the rug pulled from underneath him by Japan.

Would Japan have punched north out of Manchuria they would have cut the Trans Siberian railway. This would have isolated the Russian Far East Army that were pivotal in stopping the German advance. You have to remember that Stalin was holding this army in case the Japanese attacked. Whether they could have repelled the Japanese before the Germans arrived is doubtful.

This would have given Japan access to the Russian oil reserves so there would not have been a requirement to attack the USA trying to overcome their sanctions.

This would have left Germany and Japan conquerors of the USSR. As a result of this Britain might have come to some arrangement with Hitler because the USA would not be involved and the American public may have tired of Lease Lend especially as it was costing American lives.

Germany would have controlled Mainland Europe and Western Asia plus North Africa and the Middle East,(best of luck); the Japanese Eastern Asia including the Dutch colonies and Great Britain would still hold on to theirs. The United States would have progressively, by example, taken over Central and South America so we would have been left with four power blocks.

For how long?

Pontius Navigator
15th Jan 2018, 17:23
KEVIII would still have had the heave ho, it was not his pro-NAZI sympathies but, as head of the Church of England he could not marry a divorcee. It was Baldwin who managed the abdication crisis.

edi_local
15th Jan 2018, 19:52
Still almost every single post going off on one about losing WW2.

Can no one see that the OP is asking what if WW2 had never happened in the first place? No Nazis, Hitler, blitz, D-Day. Just peace from the end of WW1 up until present day.

The obsession with WW2 is unhealthy, but the refusal to even imagine a world where i didn't take place seems to be beyond the grasp of most people here!

G-CPTN
15th Jan 2018, 20:06
But WWII had positive effects on technical developments (such as the jet engine) which might not have otherwise progressed.
Although it only occupied six or seven years, the effect lingered for another decade.
It is difficult to imagine what if it never happened.

Many of the aspirations for the future anticipated in the 1950s failed to materialise.

edi_local
15th Jan 2018, 20:39
It can't be that difficult. Just imagine that any of the consequences of WW2, good or bad, didn't happen. It's not that different to imaging the UK was on the losing side. Both are alternative realities which exist exclusively in the mind of whoever is typing.

annakm
15th Jan 2018, 20:50
If WW2 hadn’t happened, women would probably still be in more traditional roles. Things probably would still have evolved but much more slowly. One of the consequences of the conflict was that females were thrust into many formally male jobs and attitudes changed from belief that we were the weaker sex. Gender roles were much more defined prewar so the women’s lib and equality push of the late 60s/70s would probably be only emerging now.

I think the UK class system would still have a stronghold. Both WWs had an impact on it but it was WW2 that was the leveller.

Pontius Navigator
15th Jan 2018, 21:09
Annakm, I remember in the 50s very stiff resistance to women becoming bus conductors. They had been conductors during the war and it was almost 10 years on before they got their jobs back.

As for BR train guards, much later than that.

When we're women and the vertically challenged permitted to join the police?

G-CPTN
15th Jan 2018, 21:28
Annakm, I remember in the 50s very stiff resistance to women becoming bus conductors. They had been conductors during the war and it was almost 10 years on before they got their jobs back.

Growing up in semi-rural Northumberland in the 1950s, I never saw a male bus conductor - they were all 'clippies'.

funfly
15th Jan 2018, 21:35
If WW2 hadn’t happened, women would probably still be in more traditional roles. Things probably would still have evolved but much more slowly. One of the consequences of the conflict was that females were thrust into many formally male jobs and attitudes changed from belief that we were the weaker sex. Gender roles were much more defined prewar so the women’s lib and equality push of the late 60s/70s would probably be only emerging now.

I think you will find that the seeds were sown by the events of the 1914-18 war. Long time coming but that's where the first massive employment of women outside of the home was catalysed. Before that we had the protestations of Mrs. Pankhurst et. al. getting few results and not really about women and work.

NutLoose
15th Jan 2018, 21:59
I think that, had the Germans overrun the UK, they'd have given up on the place sooner or later, rather as did the Romans. The thing is though that the horrible Hun, in those days of course, not today's nice Jerry, would have populated the British Isles with the dross of the rest of its empire. That wouldn't have made much difference in Britain of course, except for a certain fortuity of multi lingual capability but it would certainly have taken the bolshie strain out of the German territories in Africa.

Isn't that what the German driven EU is doing today?

teeteringhead
16th Jan 2018, 12:25
Would we have nuclear power or weapons?????

GANNET FAN
16th Jan 2018, 13:22
The Battle of the Java Sea would not have happened and HMS Exeter would not have been sunk and I would have enjoyed my childhood with my father. As it was he had to wait 4 long years as a POW in Macassar before laying eyes on me!

ExRAFRadar
16th Jan 2018, 14:54
Counterfactual History - not worth the paper is not written on.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/mar/13/counterfactual-history-what-if-waste-of-time

dazdaz1
16th Jan 2018, 15:15
Vera Lynn's agent would have been a bit peed off.

Mechta
16th Jan 2018, 16:06
There are (at least) two scenarios with regard to the rate of technical development. In the first instance, if fascism never reared its ugly head, radar, the jet engine, nuclear weapons and power and such like would all have taken much longer to reach fruition. Secondly, if the build up to war occurred, but the war didn't, we may have developed these things but we may not have appreciated the failings of their predecessors. Would the Gladiator, Defiant and Battle still have been front line aircraft in 1945?

Whether scientists and industry would have given enough impetus to spur on computer development, is one question. What would have happened if Japan hadn't been been shown total quality management techniques by the Americans, and then taught them to the rest of the world, is another.

funfly
16th Jan 2018, 16:51
But it couldnt have happened.
Polititions have a need to go to war, its what they do, its their form of willy waving.
Thatcher had to do it, Blair couldnt resist it, Trump is on his way.
Its African tribalism but on a larger scale and it is inevitable. If Germany had not started WW2 then someone else would have.

pulse1
16th Jan 2018, 18:53
If Germany had not started WW2 then someone else would have.

Difficult to argue against that except that it might be more likely to be several separate conflicts. The Soviet Union was already well developed and continued to be a source of problems until the cost of the arms race bankrupted it. With the animosity between the SU, China and the US, the arms race would have still existed but probably at a slower pace. Israel would still be there although maybe much smaller and less powerful and expansionist without the massive migration of Jews after WW2. The Arabs would still be fighting amongst themselves and Israel.

How long it would have taken to develop nuclear weapons I have no idea but, we are told, that they have been responsible for keeping whatever peace we have. It is logical therefore that the world would be much more messy and frightening.

Mechta
16th Jan 2018, 19:48
But it couldnt have happened.
Polititions have a need to go to war, its what they do, its their form of willy waving.
Thatcher had to do it, Blair couldnt resist it, Trump is on his way.
Its African tribalism but on a larger scale and it is inevitable. If Germany had not started WW2 then someone else would have.

Anyone know what odds the bookies are giving for Trump pressing the nuclear button before the end of his term, or at least attempting to?

In addition to wiping out malaria and polio, perhaps killing off the megalomaniac gene would be a good one for both mankind and the planet?

meadowrun
16th Jan 2018, 19:50
Somethings people forget about WWII.
At the beginning of the war the Soviet Union had less paved roads than Idaho.
The vast majority of German military transport was horse-drawn.

Mechta
16th Jan 2018, 20:49
Somethings people forget about WWII.
At the beginning of the war the Soviet Union had less paved roads than Idaho.
The vast majority of German military transport was horse-drawn.

The lack of good roads was a deliberate act by the Soviet leadership to keep the proleteriat under control and restrict their movement, or so my Russian ex father in law told me. His father driving them in their 1940s Moskovitch 400 from Zhukovsky to the Crimea was evidently quite an undertaking.

Wingswinger
16th Jan 2018, 20:54
Would Werner Von Braun have developed his rocket technology? He certainly wouldn't have gone to the USA so nothing like the American space programme we saw in the 1960s-1990s. No Saturn V, no moon landings. Few of the technological spin-offs from the space programme. Would Germany have done it? Maybe.

No "Dambusters".
No "The Great Escape". What would we have watched on Telly at Christmas?
No "The Longest Day"
No "A Bridge Too Far".
No "Battle of Britain".
No "Dunkirk"
No "Saving Private Ryan".
No " Darkest Hour".

What would they have made films about instead?

HMS Hood would be moored in the Thames or at Portsmouth instead of at the bottom of the Denmark Strait in bits.

tdracer
16th Jan 2018, 21:18
I'm rather of the opinion that WW II had to happen - the overtly expansionism of the German, Japanese, and Italian leaders made war inevitable (and as others noted, the ending of The Great War lead directly to the second world war). And as horrible as WW II was, it would have been even worse if it had been delayed by a few years - just imagine the outcome if Hitler had developed nuclear weapons first... It might be worth remembering that the German military didn't really think it was ready for war when Hitler started it by invading Poland - they wanted a another couple years to prepare while most of the rest of the world sat on their collective hands.


I was re-watching the movie "Valkyrie" last night. I sometimes wonder if Hitler was right - he did actually benefit from some sort of "divine providence" in surviving all those assignation attempts. Maybe it was necessary for Germany to be totally defeated, not just surrender. Perhaps, if Hitler had died in one of those assignation attempts and Germany had sued for peace, the result would have been just as messy as the end of the first WW, leading directly to a third big war - a war that would have decimated civilization...

Pontius Navigator
16th Jan 2018, 21:36
So really the OP is 1 No WW2 but could have been 2 No Hitler and 3 No Versailles Treat.

Instead the Washington Treaty with British power and obsolete battleships persisting. Would Japan, a WW1 ally, have attacked the USA? As the USA was neutral it probably would. The USA, not gearing up to support Britain might have suffered a greater setback but then without the distraction of a European war and a reinforced British Pacific fleet woulld have soon overcome Japan.

Mechta
16th Jan 2018, 23:15
We wouldn't have a generation of pensioners who keep enough tins in the larder to last from the declaration of war until at least D-Day...

Pom Pax
17th Jan 2018, 01:12
Without WWII:-

No Coke or Pepsi.........Tiizer would still rule.
No McDonalds or Starbucks............Lyons Corner Houses & Walls Ice Cream
Less chewing gum
Flat hats & Trilbys instead of baseball caps
Bradman would have scored many more runs.
1 GB pound = 4.98 US$
Glenn Miller would have survived so Rock & Roll would have been delayed.
Mercedes-Benz might have continued to dominate motor racing without any breaks for 80 years!
Britain would have been in Europe earlier, de Gaulle would not have been so influential.
A much less powerful US aircraft industry, no need for a trillion B this that & another and less DC3s & many many less C47s.

SARF
17th Jan 2018, 02:37
Gordon brown would have had a lot more gold to sell...

galaxy flyer
17th Jan 2018, 04:33
Better question, what if there were no WW I? Or, what if Britain left France and Germany to duke it out? WW II was inevitable with the WW I Armistice and the Treaty of Versailles. Germany likely would have, and might still, dominate Europe; the Habsburg Empite would have been subsumed into Greater Germany. Ottoman Empire likely would still have folded. The Middle East would be unpredictabiy different—England might still dominate but the French bits very different.


GF

Loose rivets
17th Jan 2018, 23:53
But then, what difference a spermatozoa?

Same street in Glasgow. Chaos theory in Japan. My father and a moment in time.

Just how different would things be if the winners had just missed? Everyone, everywhere, just missed by one tiny bundle of DNA.

How different would be the thinking? The love or the aggression? How different if Adolph had been Adal?

Not just his Lordship reaching for a misplaced salt cellar and spotting the pretty new maid who was not yet allowed to enter the room. Nothing that great. Just microscopic changes in the triggering of life in a human cell. How different would the world be?

krismiler
18th Jan 2018, 13:22
If Hitler had allied closely with Ireland back in the early 1930s, and quietly built up bases and infrastructure, it would have been very difficult for Britain to go to war with a German presence on the back doorstep.

The decision might have been different with German troops stationed across the Irish Sea, together with the Luftwaffe ready to strike. U boat bases on the west coast of Ireland would have strangled the supply route from America. The war would have to be fought on two fronts with one of them a short distance from Britain but a long way from Germany.

In this scenario, an accommodation may have had to be made which allowed Hitler to take over Europe.

However he left it too late and any attempt to move into Ireland once his ambitions were known would have resulted in Britain invading Ireland.

Loose rivets
18th Jan 2018, 16:16
My grandfather is on the Irish Roll of Honour in Dublin, and my snippet on PPRuNe recently shows he earned it.

There must have been very mixed feelings after The Great War. I seem to remember a British flight crew (or crew member) downed in Ireland during WWII that was detained for a protracted period. Still, it seems they were about to be shot by a German pilot who was also grounded, so maybe it was lucky even if more than a little tedious.

Fareastdriver
18th Jan 2018, 17:26
One British pilot who was detained in Ireland during WW II escaped over the border to Northern Ireland.

The British sent him back.

ZeBedie
18th Jan 2018, 17:51
Without WW2, my big sister would not have been conceived!

My grandmother wrote a letter of complaint to General MacArthur.

He wrote back along the lines, 'madam, I suggest you keep your daughters under control - I have a war to fight'.