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Effluent Man
13th Jan 2018, 20:24
...It was all Atoll story!

SpringHeeledJack
13th Jan 2018, 21:26
A much as human error f's things up, this smells of a deliberate move to send a signal.

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Jan 2018, 21:59
...It was all Atoll story!
The bits of Hawaii that I've visited were ****ing great volcanos sticking out of the sea, not atolls.

hiflymk3
13th Jan 2018, 22:20
So they're not an atoll atoll.

meadowrun
13th Jan 2018, 22:29
Not totally sure from the news but it seems they are actually arguing(now) over who is and/or should be responsible for initiating the alarm. Federal, State, Municipal, Military or the guys who run the hot dog stand at south-end Waikiki beach.
Nothing like planning for the threat you already knew was out there.

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Jan 2018, 23:02
or the guys who run the hot dog stand at south-end Waikiki beach
Weren't they the only ones who called in the Pearl Harbour attack?

FullOppositeRudder
14th Jan 2018, 01:15
It will be a computer error somewhere .....

meadowrun
14th Jan 2018, 01:28
Apparently it was the shift change, system verification, handover routine.
A human finger pressed the wrong button.
Threw an entire State into panic and fear. All clear was initially unclear and full all clear v. slow in coming (38 mins,)!

Hokulea
14th Jan 2018, 01:49
Text alert with "this is no drill" sent at 8:07 am HST along with alerts on the radio and TV stations - this was for the whole state. Air raid sirens didn't go off but there are reports some did, adding to the panic. "Wrong button" pushed by an employee during shift change and internal drill. Some people take cover down a manhole, banks take their customers into vaults, mad driving on the highways as people try and get home thinking they only have a few minutes left to live. Stand down sent via text at 8:45 am.

A wild morning in Hawaii!

visibility3miles
14th Jan 2018, 01:58
Took twenty minutes to send out a correction.

Plenty of time for tourists (and natives) to wander around wondering what to do.

tdracer
14th Jan 2018, 01:58
Unforgivable that it took nearly 40 minutes to cancel the alert - that shouldn't have taken more than 60 seconds!
I wonder if anyone will lose their job - although since it was apparently a government foul-up I wouldn't bet money on anyone getting fired. No one is better at CYA than the government.

dogsridewith
14th Jan 2018, 02:02
It's a good thing Little Rocket Man didn't hear about it until after the stand-down.

Hokulea
14th Jan 2018, 02:05
It took 20 minutes for the alert to be canceled online but 40 minutes via phone. I've just watched an interview with the govenor and he said they hadn't thought about a false alarm and so they had no plans of what to do if one happened.

TangoAlphad
14th Jan 2018, 02:40
It is very sad that the current state of world affairs the whole thing could of been very much believable.

The Sultan
14th Jan 2018, 02:48
It was a good thing Cheeto was out on another $3m taxpayer paid round of golf and away from Fauxnews or he could have launched ours on NK. He does get hysterical for no reason.

Mostly Harmless
14th Jan 2018, 04:24
If it were really a nuclear attack, just pull out a lawn chair and work on your tan. All the panic in the world won't save you.

Krystal n chips
14th Jan 2018, 06:58
It took 20 minutes for the alert to be canceled online but 40 minutes via phone. I've just watched an interview with the govenor and he said they hadn't thought about a false alarm and so they had no plans of what to do if one happened.

When these plans were being developed, Hawaii didn't by any chance have a temporary influx of UK Local Government advisors helpfully offering their planning skills did it ?.......this based on the " nothing can go wrong " interview above. The UK has some, ahem, "expertise" in this optimistic approach.

However, when in doubt, redefine the event as an "exercise "....

And one gentleman took a very sanguine view....and probably wasn't alone...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/13/hawaii-ballistic-missile-threat-alert-false-alarm

Hydromet
14th Jan 2018, 06:59
Surely any system like this has a check that asks if you really meant to push that button. Any modern operating system will ask if you really want to delete that file, surely it's not beyond the power of the designers of this system to do similar here.

Hokulea
14th Jan 2018, 07:30
Hydromet - local reports are that there was a message saying "do you really want to do this?" and despite that, the operator replied "yes".

Latest info is that the alert system only needed one operator to send the alert, something that those in charge have already said has changed. In addition, they say that there is now a pre-written message to be sent in case of an accidental alert which wasn't there until this nonsense.

Having lived in Hawaii for 20+ years now, I am pretty sure they've missed something and this will happen again one day. Although there was panic here for a good half an hour or so, when the all-clear message came through, many started expressing the opinion that such a ****-up was no surprise. You can include me in that list.

Pontius Navigator
14th Jan 2018, 08:43
Hydromet, I experienced two false attack alarms over 50 years ago. There is no time for debate. The button was pressed, reaction set in progress and only then was there time for debate and discussion. The first was a full no drill sirens, the lot, though the civil warning system was not activated before cancellation. IIRC it was at least 30 minutes to stop the reaction and at least an hour to convince crews to stand down.

The second was cancelled almost immediately so no sirens but crews had already reacted and again took nearly an hour to stand down.

Pontius Navigator
14th Jan 2018, 08:45
On computers "are you sure", how many regular users automatically said YES of course I mean it?

30 years ago, novice being instructed by expert, " Type Format c:" followed by "Yes"

Hydromet
14th Jan 2018, 09:24
Hokulea, we haven't heard that here - things may take a while to filter down.

PN, I can understand the system sending the alert immediately, but would have thought there was the facility for retracting italmost immediately where it is realised that a mistake has been made. I guess there needs to be allowance made for a false retraction attempt, and can understand it taking at least an hour to stand down reaction crews.

Re "Format c:", I've done similar. Instructing trainees on dismantling an instrument with a tightly-wound negator spring, "Don't ever do this." That snapped us all out of it.

belfrybat
14th Jan 2018, 09:38
Loved the ad banner in the middle of this page. Netflix "The End of the Fxxxing World".

TURIN
14th Jan 2018, 09:51
Seriously?

This is 2018. There is no current nuclear threat from a world power that is capable of launching an ICBM. Was there really panic in the streets?

I have no idea if we even have such an alarm system in the UK anymore. I suspect if a warning did go off most people would just say "what's that noise"?

Or is Hawaii still smarting from 1941? Paranod much?:suspect:

Hokulea
14th Jan 2018, 09:53
Hydromet - look further back in the thread. The muppets that created the alert system didn't plan for a false alert so they had no mechanism for canceling it. They managed to inform HPD and one or two other authorities within a few minutes that it was a false alarm, but not the public. And remember, this was a state-wide alert, so 1.4 million people thought they were about to be blasted to oblivion. It wasn't fun at the time.

Effluent Man
14th Jan 2018, 09:54
The bits of Hawaii that I've visited were ****ing great volcanos sticking out of the sea, not atolls.

Yes, I knew that but it didn't fit the joke.

yellowtriumph
14th Jan 2018, 09:56
Seriously?

This is 2018. There is no current nuclear threat from a world power that is capable of launching an ICBM. Was there really panic in the streets?

I have no idea if we even have such an alarm system in the UK anymore. I suspect if a warning did go off most people would just say "what's that noise"?

Or is Hawaii still smarting from 1941? Paranod much?:suspect:

I think a lot of people in the UK would go out into the streets with their phone to see if they could record some exclusive footage of the actual detonation to put up on their social media. Probably not just the UK though.

sitigeltfel
14th Jan 2018, 10:00
Yes, I knew that but it didn't fit the joke.

Gertie missed the "whoosh" as that one passed overhead..

http://www.seeninside.net/aa2.gif

TURIN
14th Jan 2018, 10:26
'The whole state was terrified': How Hawaii reacted to false missile alert - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42675666)

Reading some of the twitter comments on this report i am astounded.

The sheep really have been led by the nose. Is the news/media reporting over there (Hawaii) really so biased. Is no-one questioning the narrative? Is the man in the street actually believing that a nuclear attack from North Korea could happen?

Hokulea
14th Jan 2018, 10:34
Everyone in Hawaii with a cell phone got a text message saying there was an attack. TV and radio stations also broadcasted the same warning. Some people even heard the sirens go off.

What would you think in that situation?

Simplythebeast
14th Jan 2018, 10:39
'The whole state was terrified': How Hawaii reacted to false missile alert - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42675666)

Reading some of the twitter comments on this report i am astounded.

The sheep really have been led by the nose. Is the news/media reporting over there (Hawaii) really so biased. Is no-one questioning the narrative? Is the man in the street actually believing that a nuclear attack from North Korea could happen?

No-one mentioned North Korea.....it could have been flying in from Lichtenstein,
Trump Towers, or one of those Shitholes that his Orangeness spoke of.
Fact is, if Little Rocket Man had the capability and fired one this morning everyone would ignore the alarms anyway.😊

G-CPTN
14th Jan 2018, 10:40
Is the man in the street actually believing that a nuclear attack from North Korea could happen?

You aren't old enough to remember how it was in the UK in the 1950s with the 4-minute warning (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/556847/world-war-3-russia-purin-nuclear-uk-army-four-minute-warning-alert-emergency-systems).

goudie
14th Jan 2018, 10:59
I'm off to Hawaii in three weeks time to visit my daughter. I shall, no doubt, hear all about it when she calls me this evening

Tankertrashnav
14th Jan 2018, 11:12
Slight thread drift but I was chatting to my old nav plotter at Christmas, and he pointed out that while Rocket Man is boasting that his rockets will soon be in range of mainland USA, the great circle distance from North Korea to the UK is considerably shorter than to the US Eastern seaboard. Not sure how relevant that is, but it made me think

TURIN
14th Jan 2018, 11:39
No.1 The reason this warning system was set up is because of NK testing missiles. Missiles that could in theory hit Hawaii.
No.2 In the 1950s the threat of an attack from the USSR was very real.
No.3 The reason there has never been a nuclear exchange between NATO and anyone else is because of MAD.
NO.4 NK has, maybe, a very limited arsenal of nuclear weapons and a questionable delivery system. The USA (and by default) NATO have an enormous arsenal with well proven delivery systems.
No.5 Who in their right mind would think that NK would launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack...on Hawaii, no doubt to face instant retaliatory annihilation?

This is not the 1950s !

Hokulea
14th Jan 2018, 11:54
"NO.4 NK has, maybe, a very limited arsenal of nuclear weapons and a questionable delivery system. The USA (and by default) NATO have an enormous arsenal with well proven delivery systems.
No.5 Who in their right mind would think that NK would launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack...on Hawaii, no doubt to face instant retaliatory annihilation?"

Yet your average citizen, on receiving an alert that there's a ballistic missile attack on the way, what do you do? The alert was via phone, radio and TV. For all intents and purposes, it looked very real.

Effluent Man
14th Jan 2018, 12:41
Gertie missed the "whoosh" as that one passed overhead..

http://www.seeninside.net/aa2.gif

I must admit to having been unaware of the existence of a missile named Atoll. Thanks to Wiki I now know it's a Chinese Sidewinder.

uffington sb
14th Jan 2018, 13:26
Tankertrashnav.

He could take out that barbers shop in London that took the p1ss out of his haircut!!!

wiggy
14th Jan 2018, 13:54
Thanks to Wiki I now know it's a Chinese Sidewinder.

Must admit my recollection from int briefs and recce tests back in the day was that Atoll was Soviet.... Anyhow back to the thread and much bigger things that could, but hopefully wont, go bang....

Effluent Man
14th Jan 2018, 14:01
Yes, my mistake. It said that one struck a Chinese Mig and failed to explode. The Russians persuaded China to let them have it and reverse engineered their own version.

treadigraph
14th Jan 2018, 14:10
Tankertrashnav.

He could take out that barbers shop in London that took the p1ss out of his haircut!!!

The caption contest frequently lampoons Little Fat Wun, oops, the Glorious Leader... Ah me...

meadowrun
14th Jan 2018, 15:28
They were telling people to pull over and seek safety in solid structures and lie down on the floor inside. There were families crammed in bath tubs with a survival kit covered by blankets. Tourists - who can outnumber residents- had absolutely no idea what to do or where to go. People who take care of the tourists had no idea what to do. I suppose that would interfere with the magical tropical holiday experience.


A big case of "Look at our high tech warning systems".
A bigger case of "We have no idea what to do after we warn people".


Given that this threat has been known of for months...just what the hell did they do to deal with it in an effective manner? VERY little.


Window dressing in hula land.

Pontius Navigator
14th Jan 2018, 15:41
In UK the drill was to fill the bathtub with water and cover with a door. Also take a door off and construct a shelter under the stairs.

The Blitz experience showed some older houses were robust and could withstand significant blast damage. They could lose a front wall but the sandwich construction of the upper floor, lath and plaster ceiling, joists, and T&G boards could remain intact.

meadowrun
14th Jan 2018, 16:10
Aunt and Uncle's house was bombed. Bomb came through roof (where else?), through upper floor, down stairwell (family huddled in under stairs shelter), out the front door, across the road, into the houses across the street and exploded there, taking out part of the row.
Mum is now 94 and I think of her very often and lately more and more about how her and Dad's teenage and young adult years were spoiled by another warmonger, and of my other relatives lost. Needless to say it raises my blood temp, it always has done. There are few people I actually - hate - but I still hate hitler.


But I digress.


I'm sure the mai tai's are flowing again in Hawaii. Modern memories aren't as robust they used to be.

Krystal n chips
14th Jan 2018, 16:20
The BBC at it's finest, hectoring, Hame Sarveece haccent with regard to how the UK was to respond "some time ago "....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6U9T3R3EQg

Pontius Navigator
14th Jan 2018, 17:28
Wonder what point our tame (?) Gaurdinista is making?

goudie
14th Jan 2018, 17:33
Just had an email from my daughter and she says that most people just carried on but the meeja went at it non- stop ad nauseum!

VP959
14th Jan 2018, 18:00
It's probably been beneficial overall. To have an alarm system set up, with the ability to email/text/phone people, as well as sound sirens and put out public broadcasts, but then forget that there could be a case where there is a false alarm and a large number of people need reassuring afterwards, is probably a good thing to discover.

Mind you, I'm not wholly convinced that nuclear alarms are worth having. If this was for real, then just how much protection is an ordinary citizen going to be able to get very quickly, and more importantly, how likely are they to survive the aftermath?

There were a couple of funny tweets about it, like this one, where I agree with the father's view - stay and watch the ocean:

My mom started to get up to go and my Dad told her that if it was their time to go, he wanted to be looking at the ocean and enjoying the view.

My mom then yelled at my Dad for being an idiot for 10 minutes.

The one that really made me chuckle was this one:

How many false alarm babies are we getting in Hawaii in 9 months?

Bit like the baby boom maternity units see in late September, or at least used to (9 months after Christmas). My wife was born mid-September, so was my first wife (same birthdays............) as was my mother, so they were all conceived around Christmas. Be interesting to see how many people in Hawaii decide that was how they were going to spend their last few minutes on Earth after this alarm..............

G-CPTN
14th Jan 2018, 18:14
Having been the beneficiary of lectures on 'survival' after a nuclear strike, unless you are many many miles away from the impact there will be no survival - even in the longer term - unless you have a deep underground bunker supplied with filtration and rations.

Pontius Navigator
14th Jan 2018, 18:15
VP, so was my wife.

In UK, while the ocean is near, doing anything is probably pointless. In the USA with more space survival would certainly be possible.

Pontius Navigator
14th Jan 2018, 18:17
G-CPTN, of course our survival training was survival in Russia!

meadowrun
14th Jan 2018, 18:19
Anyone get a chuckle from the Hawaii Emergency Management Centre's location?

Gertrude the Wombat
14th Jan 2018, 19:10
Having been the beneficiary of lectures on 'survival' after a nuclear strike, unless you are many many miles away from the impact there will be no survival - even in the longer term - unless you have a deep underground bunker supplied with filtration and rations.
I recently met a Nagasaki survivor who'd only been about 3km from the bomb, not "many many miles".

G-CPTN
14th Jan 2018, 19:34
I recently met a Nagasaki survivor who'd only been about 3km from the bomb, not "many many miles".

Current bomb yields are said to be at least 100 times greater than those dropped on Japan (http://www.nucleardarkness.org/nuclear/highvslowyield/).

wiggy
14th Jan 2018, 20:59
The Hiroshima/Nagasaki weapons were estimated to have been just under 20k tonnes( depends on who did the Maths)....if you look at the really serious stuff (Thermonuclear) that the Russians or US had in their arsenals you are looking at up to a thousand times that.....

Not sure what the N Korea could field by way of a deliverable system but FWIW according to some accounts President Eisenhower accepted, eventually and after public process/mass refusal by civilians to play war games , that there was sod all point in practising civil defence exercises once the Soviets had demonstrated they had a usable and deliverable fusion weapon...

( There's an excellent PBS documentary whose name escapes me which in part covers the subject of public reaction to the civil defence exercises in USA in the 50s))

WingNut60
15th Jan 2018, 00:25
Current bomb yields are said to be at least 100 times greater than those dropped on Japan (http://www.nucleardarkness.org/nuclear/highvslowyield/).

There are "damage and survivability" calculators readily available on the web.
Most point to quite surprising survivability radii, even from massive thermonuclear devices.

The 2008 US Senate report (A2473-EMP-Commission) seems to suggest that the US does not really expect any initial attack from a major nation to be a ground or low-level airburst attack but rather that a high altitude EMP attack is more probable. The aim of an EMP attack is to cripple infrastructure with minimal, if any, initial casualties on the ground.
What happens next is the grizzly bit.

Unfortunately, the above scenario excludes attacks by "failed nations", which may be more direct but on a more limited scale.

G0ULI
15th Jan 2018, 01:25
Damage on the ground does not scale to the size of the bomb. After a certain point, most of the energy is reflected from the ground and blasts up through the atmosphere into space. Around 5 megatons seems to give the best bang for the buck.

Blacksheep
15th Jan 2018, 14:09
The second was cancelled almost immediately so no sirens but crews had already reacted and again took nearly an hour to stand down.I was on QRA for that second one Pontious. As we ran out to our aircraft we passed a light box that told us the exercise status, but on this day it was blank. After the aircraft taxied out, my oppo and I stood on Alpha 2 with the the Crew Chief watching and waiting and wondering why the aircraft were sitting down there on the threshold and not coming back. We had no way of knowing what was going on and it was at this point that we realised there were no standing orders for what happens next. The answer of course is that there's nothing to do - it's the end of civilization as we know it, so you just stand there waiting for the incoming.

Then a pair of Binbrook Lightnings flew over wagging their wings. That really spooked us!

CONSO
15th Jan 2018, 15:49
ON the Hawaii alert fubar. I note that our state- soviet socialist peoples republic of washington- the claim loudly pushed on news that it cant happen here cuz we have a ' chain' of command going thru several people- thus impossible. But our own west bell curve types never mention just what it takes to ' push' the final button. One person ONLY after permission ? So what does that mean . Do we wait till joe Fubar says - I'm sorry sir- i puit my coffee cup on the desk and as it started to tip- I hit the button trying to catch it. ... the point being ' authorization ' is NOT a fail safe - it takes a fail safe manual action- like two keys two buttons not reachable by one person, etc.

Blacksheep
15th Jan 2018, 15:56
There's a chain that requires independent authentication for each action, CONSO. Right down to putting the fuses in the arming circuit when preparing a weapon system for standby duty. Order is given and person responsible for the action seeks independent authentication from a second source. Once on alert you can't even stand down until authentication codes are received. As ground crew we couldn't carry out the turn round after an alert exercise until we were authenticated, as this required entering the cockpit.

The chain of command is as safe as it can get. Unless . . . :ooh:

meadowrun
15th Jan 2018, 16:34
I imagine many of us have seen things like this.


http://www.fastronixsolutions.com/assets/Switches/toggle%20with%20cover.jpg

Pontius Navigator
15th Jan 2018, 17:12
Meadow, no, but I hope that picture shows a switch after it was operated.

Krystal n chips
15th Jan 2018, 17:27
Meadow, no, but I hope that picture shows a switch after it was operated.

Erm, that's generally the case, hence the reason it's a guarded switch perhaps ?.....all that's missing is some carefully intertwined fuse wire as a "tell tale " because as we know, sometimes on those long flights, little pinkies can get bored and on the ground, well, there's always somebody who wonders "wots this do then ?"

glad rag
15th Jan 2018, 17:28
Fuse wire???


ROFL..

Krystal n chips
15th Jan 2018, 17:32
Fuse wire???


ROFL..

Alas, straight over your head......would 14guage locking wire suit you perhaps ? Or should I have said " that very thin pretty red wire stuff " ?

EEngr
15th Jan 2018, 18:36
On computers "are you sure", how many regular users automatically said YES of course I mean it?


https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/84/36/a58436f5a17b7815cbf28e0ba4dc893c.jpg

But sir! I received a valid warning message from Colonel* Panic.

*American pronunciation

glad rag
15th Jan 2018, 18:38
Alas, straight over your head......would 14guage locking wire suit you perhaps ? Or should I have said " that very thin pretty red wire stuff " ?

what the **** are you on about?

Pontius Navigator
15th Jan 2018, 21:21
Glad rag, no idea what was said. My point was not that the guard cc was raised but that the switch should be PULL to ON

I recall an article by a Vulcan copilot on the various actions to switch something on - up, down, left, right, pull, push, pull and twist, press and twist etc

meadowrun
15th Jan 2018, 21:34
Switches in North America, in the vast majority, are - up for on. The idea of the guard, of course, is that it is more secure to have to do two actions to accomplish the task and you don't want anyone inadvertently moving the thing by accident.
I understand it is also common for pilots, especially in training to check instruments and controls with the eyes accompanied by a pointing gesture. This makes you subtly think twice about each action and acts as a fast double-check.
Sorry if stating the obvious.

tdracer
15th Jan 2018, 22:23
There are two basic types of guarded switches. In both cases, you need to lift the guard to change the state of the switch - but one type the guard can be closed in both switch positions. The second type closing the guard returns the switch to the 'normal' state.
The second type are common for maintenance related switches since a quick glance tells you if anything isn't returned to normal.

G-CPTN
15th Jan 2018, 23:04
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGCW8xftdOAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtIx5F3516c

Tankertrashnav
16th Jan 2018, 00:30
It is a truth universally acknowledged that any button that can be pressed will be pressed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3WqBFPhdKM

fitliker
16th Jan 2018, 00:59
Some of those guarded switches have holes for witness wire . Useful to make sure nobody is playing with the switch until it is needed.
Witness wire saves time on the walk-around. If the wire is good the systems has not been deployed and you are good to go .
As for any missiles heading to Hawaii , I would not expect any fireworks displays until after the Olympics. Hopefully , the NK keep their chemical and biological assassin's away from the crowds and airports. It could be the end of the world's as we know it if returning athlete's and fans returned home with more than just the Aussie flu.

jolihokistix
16th Jan 2018, 01:33
Not to put too fine a point on it, there is actually a threat. Especially with new movements on Guam.
https://japantoday-asset.scdn3.secure.raxcdn.com/img/store/60/39/2199e217c5b45d3ec9e7e8beed536b7d8a5f/urn:publicid:ap.org:d72b0859dabc4216a2fe357bd5bb66dd/_w850.jpg

jolihokistix
16th Jan 2018, 03:52
Someone mention Guam?
https://japantoday.com/category/world/us-moves-ships-bombers-toward-korea-ahead-of-olympics
In this Jan. 8, 2018, photo released by the U.S. Air Force, a B-2 Spirit, assigned to the 509th Bomb Wing, Whiteman Air Force Base, taxis on the flightline at Andersen Air Force Base (AFB), Guam. The U.S. is beefing up its presence around the Korean Peninsula ahead of 2018 Winter Olympics by deploying stealth bombers, at least one extra aircraft carrier and a new amphibious assault ship to the region. (Staff Sgt. Joshua Smoot/U.S. Air Force via AP)
https://japantoday-asset.scdn3.secure.raxcdn.com/img/store/c7/d8/cab8d62afc3daf9a556ce1928c4981c33541/urn:publicid:ap.org:b150b8e7bf9c43c3932a47c7b3f30139/_w850.jpg

HEMS driver
16th Jan 2018, 14:06
I suspect there is no "switch" involved, but rather a computer screen and a mouse click. I doubt that the Hawaiian governor/government is being 100% accurate (honest).

meadowrun
16th Jan 2018, 14:50
Yes of course it's a computer and a computer button. but, perhaps it shouldn't be.
And perhaps they should have bought the optional pittbull to guard it from the idiots.


You kind of expect Hawaii to be the last place to treat the possibility of a sneak attack with the kind of complacency shown so far.

KelvinD
16th Jan 2018, 17:50
Imagine that! Japanese broadcaster NHK today issued a warning that N. Korea had launched a missile.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-japan/now-japanese-tv-issues-false-alarm-about-a-missile-launch-idUSKBN1F514S?utm_source=inshorts&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=fullarticle

HEMS driver
16th Jan 2018, 17:57
Tora, tora, tora.

PAXfips
16th Jan 2018, 22:19
Ok - better "shoot" the company that "designed" this "button"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/16/that-was-no-wrong-button-in-hawaii-take-a-look/

Unbelievable.

meadowrun
16th Jan 2018, 22:31
Ige, in his speech, deplored the fact that employees of the emergency management agency were getting death threats since the events of Saturday. “I will not stand for scapegoating management personnel when a number of unfortunate errors cause this event,” he said.


And just who made those "unfortunate errors" possible then?

CONSO
16th Jan 2018, 22:50
[QUOTE=

The chain of command is as safe as it can get. Unless . . . :ooh:[/QUOTE]

regardless of the chain of command - if ONE person can push the button- its of no use. As I recall in ROTC many many years ago - a test question to be answered as true or false was " The chain of command is only used for pulling 1/2 ton trucks or larger "

Since only ONE button WAS needed, then either by accident OR by deliberate action NOT authorized makes no difference.

minuteman launchfor example requires at least 4 persons to "push buttons" Two each in two command centers- and those two persons in A command center are separated by bulletproof glass and a door.

And thats AFTER a significant authentication process

ethicalconundrum
16th Jan 2018, 23:06
We call this a PEBCAK fault.

Or an ID-10-T error.

Oh, I found the root cause:

I wish I could say there was a simple reason for why it took so long to get the correction to the false alert out, Hawaii Gov. David Ige (D) said in an unusual broadcast address (https://governor.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/01.15.18-Governors-Address-to-the-State-003.pdf) to the state Monday evening. :}

lomapaseo
17th Jan 2018, 04:17
I wish I could say there was a simple reason for why it took so long to get the correction to the false alert out, Hawaii Gov. David Ige (D) said in an unusual broadcast address to the state Monday evening.

I think it had to do with the emergency thinking "check list"

did anybody notice?

do they suspect a possible human error or act of God?

can we blame it on the weather?

can we blame it on space debris falling from the sky?

Is there a cleaning lady we can blame it on?

How quick can we file retirement papers?

all this takes time to agree among co-workers involved

meadowrun
17th Jan 2018, 05:15
Good Afternoon everyone.
Welcome to the Hawaii Emergency Management Agency.
You will have noticed our location. We share it with other highly important government and military installations.
Welcome to scenic Diamond Head Crater. Here we monitor all types of emergency threats.
Yes, that's right, "crater", as in "volcano". The crater is quite safe, it hasn't erupted in 300,000 years, so, hell, what are the chances of anything like that happening again? A volcano re-erupting is just so farfetched.
Questions? Yes, good question. Yes, the Hawaiian Islands were all created as a result of volcanic eruptions. Ain't that a hoot of a coincidence?
So, here at the EMA we monitor against sneak attacks and other emergencies. Not eruptions tho'.
Never gonna happen, we're in a good place.

Ogre
17th Jan 2018, 11:01
The vast majority of the nuclear war scenarios that I've seen reference to, the first bomb tends to be a high-atmosphere air burst. A burst like that provides (either from a special bomb or even a usual bomb) a massive EMP burst which is intended to disrupt communications and damage anything electronic that isn't shielded.

So all those mobile phones would be useless junk after an EMP burst....

VP959
17th Jan 2018, 11:24
The vast majority of the nuclear war scenarios that I've seen reference to, the first bomb tends to be a high-atmosphere air burst. A burst like that provides (either from a special bomb or even a usual bomb) a massive EMP burst which is intended to disrupt communications and damage anything electronic that isn't shielded.

So all those mobile phones would be useless junk after an EMP burst....

There has been a story running as a part of the PM programme on BBC Radio 4 this week about early warning systems, specifically the systems and actions the UK have in place now (the conclusion so far is that we have had none since they were all dismantled at the end of the Cold War). Years ago we had sirens, rather daft leaflets and a public information film that was shown on TV, giving the actions to be taken in the event of an alert. Now we seem to have nothing, even the old siren network has apparently been removed.

I think things were summed up well by one person interviewed on the programme last night. His view was that following 6 to 8 hits on the UK we'd all die anyway, not from the direct impact of the detonations, but because our infrastructure would collapse and our food would be inedible pretty quickly.

I've no idea how correct he was, but I suspect there was a fair degree of truth in what he said. A few people in remote areas might be able to get by, living off the land, but the UK as we know it would pretty quickly cease to exist.

glad rag
17th Jan 2018, 12:32
Some of those guarded switches have holes for witness wire . Useful to make sure nobody is playing with the switch until it is needed.
Witness wire saves time on the walk-around. If the wire is good the systems has not been deployed and you are good to go .

And a numbered lead seal.

KenV
17th Jan 2018, 17:45
Surely any system like this has a check that asks if you really meant to push that button. Any modern operating system will ask if you really want to delete that file, surely it's not beyond the power of the designers of this system to do similar here.To put into perspective how very bad Hawaii's protocols are check out this photo:
https://cdn1.ijr.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/hawaii-1-1024x484.jpg

Ex Cargo Clown
17th Jan 2018, 19:10
To put into perspective how very bad Hawaii's protocols are check out this photo:
https://cdn1.ijr.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/hawaii-1-1024x484.jpg

If that's really, I give up.

West Coast
17th Jan 2018, 19:45
That was a PW for another system so says the state, so while bad form, it hopefully wouldn’t have led to anything.

Hokulea
18th Jan 2018, 07:14
Unfortunately, things are only getting worse. The latest just adds to the incompetence theory. Apparently, it took the state over 20 minutes to contact the feds to ask what to do after issuing the alert, even though they didn't need federal permission to cancel the alert.

20 minutes after false missile alert, Hawaii decided to call fed - Hawaii News Now - KGMB and KHNL (http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/37288709/it-took-hawaii-20-minutes-to-contact-feds-for-guidance-after-bogus-missile-alert)

Then, the state (governor's office) sent out incorrect images of the screen the operator would have used:

Hawaii Distributed Phony Image Of Missile Warning Screen (http://www.civilbeat.org/2018/01/hawaii-distributed-phony-image-of-missile-warning-screen/)

Most of us who live here are not surprised by this nonsense, but this continual digging of holes is quite stunning.

tdracer
18th Jan 2018, 20:59
I wonder if anyone will lose their job - although since it was apparently a government foul-up I wouldn't bet money on anyone getting fired.
Yep, I was right, no one fired, one person reassigned.
Oh, ExCargo, not only is that photo for real, it lead my Yahoo news feed for 2 days!
West Coast, that's what they would say isn't it. And what did that other system control - something unimportant like maybe the state power grid?
And people wonder why I'm so skeptical of big government...

Hokulea
23rd Jan 2018, 07:24
This is so embarrassing.

After false missile alarm, Ige couldn?t log on to Twitter (http://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/01/22/breaking-news/after-false-missile-alarm-ige-couldnt-log-on-to-twitter/)

"Gov. David Ige told reporters today that part of the delay in notifying the public that the Jan. 13 ballistic missile alert was a false alarm was that he did not know his Twitter account password."

Pontius Navigator
23rd Jan 2018, 08:57
It was on a post-it note was it?

Hokulea
23rd Jan 2018, 09:19
Not long after the false alarm, Hawaii civil defense posted pictures of the "drop-down" menu the employee had to use to issue the alert, then sent out false images and the reason was that they didn't want to let hackers see the screen. Everyone knows that hackers need to see a picture of the screen before they can hack a computer, so that's sorted. Then they post a picture with the password on a post-it note and now the governor can't remember his password. So now he tells hackers where to find his password - during a time when Intel has told everyone their phones are vulnerable.

Might be worth keeping track of Ige's twitter account.

meadowrun
24th Jan 2018, 05:31
Aww...and he looks like such a nice guy, well spoken and really looks great giving press conferences with a lei around his neck.

Hokulea
31st Jan 2018, 08:45
A little more is coming out now about the incident. Apparently, the state employee who "accidentally pushed the wrong button" pushed the right one because they thought it was a real attack. They missed the part of the message that said it was an exercise, but then again, the drill didn't include the phrase "this is a drill". I'm sure many of you here understand the significance of that.

However, the employee also had a long history of mixing up real events with drills yet they were put into the position of responsibility that included issuing a warning about an incoming missile attack. The employee has been fired and the agency's top administrator has resigned. I don't know if this ends the story as the people in higher positions remain. More details here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2018/01/30/heres-what-went-wrong-with-that-hawaii-missile-alert-the-fcc-says/?utm_term=.a5b7c0b4b012

sitigeltfel
31st Jan 2018, 14:00
HQ 1GP Ops room circa 1979.

BMEWS display board starts showing live info and they start broadcasting "confidence high" over the box.

A quick look at the ops log shows there has been no intimation of an exercise.

I call Fylingdales on the snatch line and get the equivalent of "F off, we're busy".

I call Strike and they say they are getting the same info.

Other Ops staff are trying to get verification from Fylingdales on other lines with no response.

We start pulling the Action Cards and my first duty would be to call the AOC. He is at Strike HQ, so I try to call the SASO on the secure line. No answer, so I call him on the normal line and ask him to pick up the secure line.
He says he can't because it is kept in a secure cabinet and his Sergeant PA has the key and has gone out on an errand. I advise him to get down to the Ops room.

Meanwhile Fylingdales is still broadcasting incoming missile info including likely targets.

Within a few minutes the Ops room is full of brass, locked down, and nobody is really sure about what is happening. Sqn Ldr Ops has pulled the A***** Op Order from the safe.

Finally someone gets through to Fylingdales and they admit it is an exercise.

SASO takes the snatch line and gives them a roasting.

A lot of procedures were changed after that!

(PS. If you don't understand some of the above terms, you don't need to know! :p)

lomapaseo
31st Jan 2018, 14:16
(PS. If you don't understand some of the above terms, you don't need to know! )

SNAFU .....