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fox niner
5th Jan 2018, 06:29
I really thought that I had seen it all.:ugh:

Then I stumbled across this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3pR06pk0aM

Don’t worry, her licence is suspended. Grounded.

pilotmike
5th Jan 2018, 06:35
She probably believes it is a global conspiracy against her....:}

treadigraph
5th Jan 2018, 06:41
Obviously a well-rounded person...

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 07:16
Did nobody warn her that flattery gets you nowhere?

A Squared
5th Jan 2018, 07:17
No, her IQ is not "good enough"

clareprop
5th Jan 2018, 07:28
If the story is true, then she is obviously ill.

FE Hoppy
5th Jan 2018, 08:26
Idiots beget idiots.

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 08:51
Don’t worry, her licence is suspended. Grounded.

The video makes it clear that it's her airline (KLM) that has taken her off flying duties. There is no suggestion that she has lost her licence.

Longer interview with the lady (22 years on MD-11/737) here:

Bj-k0dJ9ndU

KelvinD
5th Jan 2018, 08:54
If you think that story is silly, try this pair of idiots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxmxH0-MfAY
I love the way they kep referring to a "pittert" tube being used to measure air speed.

colled
5th Jan 2018, 09:28
The real conspiracy is why hasn't evolution wiped out idiots like these guys!?

jolihokistix
5th Jan 2018, 09:43
Discrimination! Surely the sky is free.


Poor woman grounded!?!?!


She might fall off the edge, and then KLM could be facing a huge lawsuit.

andytug
5th Jan 2018, 09:44
Playing devil's advocate for a minute, why would believing in a flat earth make her unsafe to fly? Takeoff and landing would be unaffected, and navigation is done on a flat chart (projected from a globe, but she wouldn't believe that), and the autopilot is set to follow a globe, so what's the problem?

colled
5th Jan 2018, 09:48
because that would make her insane, and we don't want people like that at the pointy end

Loose rivets
5th Jan 2018, 10:12
And then there's the holographic 2D reality that's being talked about now.

Ha ha ha, I hear people cry, but you shouldn't. Some of the work is being done in top universities and by well respected PhD's.

And to think, all this attention to these new ideas, and I can't get much interest in my Spacetime Inflow hypothesis.

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 10:12
Playing devil's advocate for a minute, why would believing in a flat earth make her unsafe to fly?

I think I might be slightly concerned about flying with someone who believes that it's 4 times as far from SYD to JNB as it is from LHR to JFK. :O

http://www.relativelyinteresting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/modern+flat+earth+map.png

Except that of course she clearly doesn't believe that, it's pretty obvious from the interview that she's just having a laugh winding up the Flat-Earthers.

Good for her.

G-CPTN
5th Jan 2018, 10:55
That circular image is based on an assumption.
Paper charts and maps clearly assume that the Earth is flat and laying out these plans will demonstrate this clearly (well, maybe firmly if not clearly).
At what stage must one have to assume that the Earth is not flat?

Super VC-10
5th Jan 2018, 11:00
If the earth is flat, as DaveReidUK's picture suggests, what's on the other side?

BluSdUp
5th Jan 2018, 11:04
Girls
Please take 30 minutes of You life and listen to her story.
I am glad she is on the ground and are taken care off.
Is she mentally unfit to fly? Not for me to judge.

On the subject: If a pilot was supposed to understand all involved with flight down to every detail and theory, we would still board the Liners across the Atlantic after a train ride to the Docks.
Initial signs of mental instability is on the top of the CAAs lists, and I think this lovely Lady might be back soon.

I wish her a Happy Newyear on Planet Earth.
And good luck.

Calling someone an Idiot, makes You the one.

Spunky Monkey
5th Jan 2018, 11:07
Turtles...its turtles all the way down.

cavortingcheetah
5th Jan 2018, 11:13
Has no one ever heard of a rum line?

hiflymk3
5th Jan 2018, 11:15
The Flat Earth Society is a global phenomenon.

treadigraph
5th Jan 2018, 11:54
If the earth is flat, as DaveReidUK's picture suggests, what's on the other side?

It could be heaven or it could be hell...

NutLoose
5th Jan 2018, 11:57
If the earth is flat, as DaveReidUK's picture suggests, what's on the other side?

Probably the price tag.

PDR1
5th Jan 2018, 11:59
Has no one ever heard of a rum line?

I haven't.

But I *have* heard of rhumb lines...

:E

pilotmike
5th Jan 2018, 12:02
PDR1, you were 'sold' a 'rum line', as in a phoney idea.... and you took the bait.

PDR1
5th Jan 2018, 12:08
I think someone threw you a curve - I was never sold a rum line - I only leased it on a personal contract plan because I can scam the tax.

After three years I handed it back and leased a new single-malt line, which is far better (obviously).

treadigraph
5th Jan 2018, 12:12
I though he meant a rum lime... if you are buying, I'll have one.

On a wonderfully clear night a couple of years ago, I had a fantastic view of the ISS from just above the horizon over the Portuguese coast, passing "over the top" of the newly risen full moon a few degrees above the SE horizon, then disappearing somewhere over Hungary/Czech Republic - roughly visible for about 1500 miles across Europe. After it disappeared I could trace the arc it had followed - if you have any doubts that the earth is a sphere...

B Fraser
5th Jan 2018, 12:18
It never occurred to her to question why at the beginning or end of a day, she was flying in brilliant sunshine while the surface of the earth many miles below was in darkness ? Something isn't adding up. Perhaps her employer needs to sharpen up the stupidity detection questions at the interview stage.

pax britanica
5th Jan 2018, 12:25
If you are Dutch there every reason to believe in a flat earth , after all you live in a flat country and if she only flies short haul it doesnt make a lot of difference whether the world is flat or not .

Does it actually make you insane?

I mean you can argue that voting for Donald trump is insane -or even voting for Brexit is insane Wrong maybe -and different eyes see different things but its not insanity

Voices in the head , Hitler is still alive , serial killing, they are insane whatever ones point of view

Surely it is a wind up (pronounced like the drink not the mill)

Um... lifting...
5th Jan 2018, 12:42
http://familymealblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/stroop006.jpg

Sallyann1234
5th Jan 2018, 13:00
I hope she hadn't done the Chemtrail training programme, or the secrets will be out for sure. :=

treadigraph
5th Jan 2018, 13:03
They've stopped spraying over London & the SE now, I guess we must be sufficiently subjugated.

PDR1
5th Jan 2018, 13:12
If you are Dutch there every reason to believe in a flat earth , after all you live in a flat country and if she only flies short haul it doesnt make a lot of difference whether the world is flat or not .


Apparently it all made perfect sense when Elvis explained it to her last year.

PDR

Dan_Brown
5th Jan 2018, 13:29
Whoa for just a moment. Is there anyone in said airline, or on these boards able disprove her theory?

I have never been that high to prove or otherwise. Anyone else? Funny old world. Centeries ago you would have been hung out to dry for suggesting the earth was round. Now you are in trouble for suggesting it ain't 😁

Sallyann1234
5th Jan 2018, 13:46
I don't see why it matters what shape the earth is.

The earth is flat where you take off, and it's flat where you land. The MSA takes care of everything in between. Simples! :ok:

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 14:15
Whoa for just a moment. Is there anyone in said airline, or on these boards able disprove her theory?

You mean apart from the "Flat Earth" map in my earlier post, that anyone with 5 minutes to spare and a couple of airline timetables could demonstrate is nonsense ?

But you're missing the point, anyway - it isn't "her theory", she's having a laugh and would no doubt be delighted at the debate that her spoof has sparked on a professional pilots' forum.

WingNut60
5th Jan 2018, 14:27
Recent quote from (I think) Elon Musk : "How come you never hear about a Flat Mars Society"?

ShotOne
5th Jan 2018, 16:22
To be devil's advocate does that mean anyone who believes in the devil or that god made heaven and earth in seven days has to be sacked?

PDR1
5th Jan 2018, 16:26
Whoa for just a moment. Is there anyone in said airline, or on these boards able disprove her theory?

Is that a real question?

You can prove the earth is round by attempting 2-dimensional navigation and observing the error.

You can prove the earth is round by observing the horizon and noting that (1) it is further away if you look from the top of a tower than from the ground and (b) if you look out to sea as a ship comes in you see the tip of its masts before you see the hull.

You can prove the earth is round by observing that a radar has an increased range if you mount it on a tower, and that when it is mounted low-down it cannot see low-level aircraft but can see ones flying higher even if they are a bit further away.

Or if you are a jet pilot you can simply look out of the window above FL300 on a clear day with no undercast and actually SEE the feckin horizon is curved...

Etc

PDR

PDR1
5th Jan 2018, 16:28
To be devil's advocate does that mean anyone who believes in the devil or that god made heaven and earth in seven days has to be sacked?

Well the unions would blackball him because the whole "7 days" thing sets an unacceptable precedent (never mind the assciated madate for a 6-day working week), and they were never consulted about having a time-and-motion study anyway.

PDR

G-CPTN
5th Jan 2018, 16:46
Apart from the pilot having a different perception about the wider environment, exactly what technical reasons preclude her from flying?

AIUI she is on a medical suspension of her licence.

I realise that medical officers consider themselves to be omnipotent (having had my licence suspended as a youngster on shaky medical grounds), but if the pilot wanted to challenge the decision, what legal justification could be upheld?

I'm sure that some pilots hold beliefs inconsistent with reality (as suggested by ShotOne) - yet they remain 'fit to fly'.

NutLoose
5th Jan 2018, 17:00
Would you want to fly with a pilot that could fly you off the edge of the world?

:E

clareprop
5th Jan 2018, 17:07
G-CPTN

I think with religion, non-believers tend to go along with the story to keep the peace but Flat-Earth from a pilot...nah...

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 17:12
but Flat-Earth from a pilot...nah...

You'll be telling us next that you think she's having us on. :O

Ascend Charlie
5th Jan 2018, 20:44
Has no one ever heard of a rum line?

Is that like a cocaine line? Never been able to snort rum, though. Rhumb lines, however, are another thing.

t's 4 times as far from SYD to JNB as it is from LHR to JFK.

Wonder how the flat-earthers explain how the planes can fly 4 times faster in the southern hemisphere (or outer- part-flat-chart) than in the other bit?

Private jet
5th Jan 2018, 23:18
The "dilution of quality" that always inevitably comes with the "maturation" of any industry...

megan
6th Jan 2018, 01:09
If the earth is flat, as DaveReidUK's picture suggests, what's on the other side?Made in China I would have thought.

chuks
6th Jan 2018, 03:05
There's a brief mention by the pilot of how she got going with this "flat earth" thing after her child had been vaccinated and then suffered some sort of adverse reaction. That hints that she holds more than just one strange belief.

I knew a pilot who very much enjoyed parroting every wacko belief ever, from "It is illegal for the IRS to tax our earnings," through "Only coin is real money; banknotes are just pieces of paper," but especially that the Holocaust never happened. I never had to fly with him, and thank God for that, because after 8 hours of listening to his BS I think I would have gone just as crazy as he was. (He simply seemed to enjoy holding and promulgating very, very strange beliefs, the stranger the better, in some weird attempt to show the ability to win any argument by any means necessary. He would lead off with that, "I notice that you are pretty smart, so that I wonder if you could help me with this question I have ... " when what would follow was a trip down this or that rabbit hole. That was the equivalent of getting a 419 letter, really, so that any sort of response was going to be a mistake.) I had to wonder if he knew himself why he was doing this, when it certainly was extremely off-putting.

In this case, to raise belief in a flat earth, whether sincerely held or not, in front of a check airman ... there's a definite CRM problem there, at least. Next comes the notion that your FO is a shape-shifting lizard, I suppose.

A Squared
6th Jan 2018, 03:32
Next comes the notion that your FO is a shape-shifting lizard, I suppose.

You've flown with that guy too?

A Squared
6th Jan 2018, 03:39
I think I might be slightly concerned about flying with someone who believes that it's 4 times as far from SYD to JNB as it is from LHR to JFK. :O Sydney-Perth looks to be about 3 timers as far as Hobart-Darwin, also.


Except that of course she clearly doesn't believe that, it's pretty obvious from the interview that she's just having a laugh winding up the Flat-Earthers.



On what do you base that? Not that I'm opposed to messing with nut-cases, very much for it actually. But, I didn't get any sense from the interview that it was a put-on. Mind you, I didn't listen to the whole thing; there's only so much entertainment in listening to nut jobs, (or people pretending to be, as the case may be)

ShotOne
6th Jan 2018, 08:14
Thank you for "proving", PDR, the error of the flat earth theory. You miss the point though, that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of angels or reincarnation and a wealth of evidence that species took more than seven days to evolve. But we don't sack people for believing any of these things. And if you tried, the law would protect them to the hilt and YOU would be sued.

Pontius Navigator
6th Jan 2018, 08:32
Has no one ever heard of a rum line?

That's a rum old do.

Incidentally our cruise captain chose to set a rhumb line course from Madeira to the Caribbean.

Krystal n chips
6th Jan 2018, 08:42
I knew a pilot who very much enjoyed parroting every wacko belief ever, from "It is illegal for the IRS to tax our earnings," through "Only coin is real money; banknotes are just pieces of paper," but especially that the Holocaust never happened. I never had to fly with him, and thank God for that, because after 8 hours of listening to his BS I think I would have gone just as crazy as he was. (He simply seemed to enjoy holding and promulgating very, very strange beliefs, the stranger the better, in some weird attempt to show the ability to win any argument by any means necessary. He would lead off with that, "I notice that you are pretty smart, so that I wonder if you could help me with this question I have ... " when what would follow was a trip down this or that rabbit hole. That was the equivalent of getting a 419 letter, really, so that any sort of response was going to be a mistake.) I had to wonder if he knew himself why he was doing this, when it certainly was extremely off-putting.



Hmmmm ? that sounds remarkably similar, in most respects, to a prolific contributor and former pilot on the US Politics thread......

Pontius Navigator
6th Jan 2018, 08:43
You can prove the earth is round by observing the horizon and noting that (1) it is further away if you look from the top of a tower

What nonsense. If I stand on my terrace I can see as far as my stream down my flat garden. If I look out my bedroom window I can see the stream and the pond beyond. Height allows me to see more but does not prove a curve.


Lol

Pontius Navigator
6th Jan 2018, 08:50
Wonder how the flat-earthers explain how the planes can fly 4 times faster in the southern hemisphere (or outer- part-flat-chart) than in the other bit?

Easy.

Take a plate. Mark a point one centimeter from the centre. Mark a second 10 cm from the centre. Rotate plate. In one revolution the inner mark moves 3.141529 cm and the other 31.41529, ergo it moves 10 times faster in unit time.

Clearly an aircraft instrument that had to cope with there different distances would give huge differences in readings so they are corrected using a cosecant squared pin wheel.

Stan Woolley
6th Jan 2018, 09:43
There's a brief mention by the pilot of how she got going with this "flat earth" thing after her child had been vaccinated and then suffered some sort of adverse reaction. That hints that she holds more than just one strange belief.

Should 'holding a strange belief' be grounds for losing your medical? There are people I know that are surely more intelligent than I am, probably more intelligent than 95% of the population that have 'unusual' beliefs, unusual in that the mainstream won't support them. What are we using as legal proof? Insanity, lmbalance, etc ?

Can she do her co-pilot job ? Does she feel the need to constantly push her thinking about flat earth or vaccines upon others? Etc We don't have answers to questions such as these, it would be most interesting to find out more.

I think it's a really slippery slope.

I lost my medical some years back, before that I had no time or inclination to study esoteric topics that most people know little or nothing about. Seeing this thread leads me to think that, had I been flying now, with my present 'thinking', I would have possibly been at threat of losing my own licence, for similar grounds to this woman.

I am no believer in flat earth, or Chemtrails, but I do have doubts about vaccines, 9/11, and certain other 'conspiracy theories'. I think that ghosts, UFOs, and reincarnation and many more, all have evidence of being more than worthy of proper study. Yet I don't think such thinking would detract in any way from me being able to do my job as a TRE/Line trainer in the slightest. I am the same person I used to be, what has changed? If the same had happened to me and if I had money to burn, it might be very interesting to fight it in the courts. A lot would depend, of course, if I could find a clever, expensive lawyer willing to take my case.

Where do we draw the line?

chuks
6th Jan 2018, 09:56
I think we draw the line at pushing those beliefs in the cockpit, which seems to be what this pilot did. We are trained to get along by keeping quiet about side issues. Not doing that is a CRM fail, just to start with.

For example, I sometimes flew with a young Muslim woman who told me that all she knew about Jews in the USA was that "they are all rich and own all the newspapers and film studios." No prizes for guessing how often we discussed that one in flight! No, we got along fine as a flight crew by leaving that sort of stuff well off to one side. If I had been strong-minded/lacking in self-control enough to need to hash that one out whenever/wherever then I would have been given the sack, and quite properly too. Not even that my counter-beliefs might have been closer to the objective truth, just that I needed to keep them to myself when operating as part of a flight crew, in the name of CRM.

The only shape-shifting lizards I knew were in Management, by the way.

Stan Woolley
6th Jan 2018, 10:12
I tend to agree with this, but she says she couldn't remember how they got started talking about this stuff. They presumably got started the day before, then the Captain and Training Capt took it upon themselves to talk about her and tell her about it the next day on the Zurich-AMS leg? Did she bring it up, or did they feel that they had to? She obviously felt that 'doing that is a CRM fail, just to start with.' Oops - she actually listened during those sessions! :)

The trainer seemed to have second thoughts about this, as he said he wouldn't write a report. He maybe felt that he and the Captain had been out of line, or he started thinking he would be the one in trouble. She hung herself I think.

But still, it makes you think.

chuks
6th Jan 2018, 11:33
It's a tough call, certainly. From listening to the interview, she was the one pushing it, and with a check airman. I think she's happy with her status as some sort of martyr to a little-known truth; otherwise she'd probably do a sincere Act of Contrition, get her medical back, and return to flight duties.

Stan Woolley
6th Jan 2018, 11:56
It's a tough call, certainly. From listening to the interview, she was the one pushing it, and with a check airman. I think she's happy with her status as some sort of martyr to a little-known truth; otherwise she'd probably do a sincere Act of Contrition, get her medical back, and return to flight duties.

I think that I was wrong in assuming she lost her medical as Dave Reid says in an earlier post that there is no evidence that confirms that fact, but the company has removed her from flying duties.

It probably is not that big a deal where this lady is concerned, she works part time and always appears to have placed her family high up in her priorities, above career to some degree. But as I say, her story might make others hold back from expressing themselves fully.

I think that there are probably lots of pilots who do so.

Jet Blast makes us look like a lynch mob! :8

Rossian
6th Jan 2018, 13:16
......according to the former Nav instructor at RAF Topcliffe in the '60s, and no, it's NOT a railway line in Jamaica. (He specialised in bad jokes like that).

The Ancient Mariner

ShotOne
6th Jan 2018, 13:32
“Do a sincere act of contrition..”? Where does that lead? Does this apply to anyone with an unscientific belief?

DaveReidUK
6th Jan 2018, 13:58
I think that I was wrong in assuming she lost her medical as Dave Reid says in an earlier post that there is no evidence that confirms that fact, but the company has removed her from flying duties.

In her interview on YouTube, she implies that she in effect removed herself from flying. She makes some interesting points about CRM, and about how she was enjoying flying less and less because of increased automation and reduced opportunity to manually fly the aircraft.

In answer to the earlier poster's question about why I think it's a spoof, apart from the fact that she doesn't exhibit any of the classic flat-earther loony traits (as opposed to the interviewer), I find it inconceivable that any pilot (particularly one who flew longhaul) can possibly reconcile all her years of flight-planning and navigation with the ridiculous flat-earthers' maps like the one I posted earlier from the Flat Earth Society.

Sallyann1234
6th Jan 2018, 14:02
Could its be that she "wants to spend more time with her family" and this is a smart move to get suspended on medical grounds but on full/part salary, rather than just resigning?

galaxy flyer
6th Jan 2018, 15:53
Yes, given the incentives, this seems to be an excellent scheme (US sense) to get paid time off in excess of that given others.

GF

Luggage
6th Jan 2018, 16:03
Has no one ever heard of a rum line?

Errr....it's Rhumb Line, not rum!!:=

pilotmike
6th Jan 2018, 16:09
Errr....it's Rhumb Line, not rum!!
Luggage being left behind. (check page 2)

PDR1
6th Jan 2018, 17:21
Thank you for "proving", PDR, the error of the flat earth theory. You miss the point though, that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of angels or reincarnation and a wealth of evidence that species took more than seven days to evolve. But we don't sack people for believing any of these things. And if you tried, the law would protect them to the hilt and YOU would be sued.

Holding strange beliefs about invisible friends and unlikely occurrences of asexual reproduction doesn't inherently affect the ability to safely fly an aeroplane, but how does someone who believes in a flat earth actually navigate (assume electronic aids have failed)?

PDR

ShotOne
6th Jan 2018, 19:15
She would clearly have had to demonstrate navigational competence to earn her licence and her ability has not been called into question

Stan Woolley
6th Jan 2018, 19:33
She would clearly have had to demonstrate navigational competence to earn her licence and her ability has not been called into question

Exactly.

How do her beliefs affect her ability to do her job? Have they thus far? She seems to have passed her many competency checks over a period of 22years.

Ascend Charlie
6th Jan 2018, 21:34
Does the Flat Earth Theory fit in with the Thick Air Theory?

This is the one that states that the air gets thicker, not thinner, the higher you go. The proofs for this are:
1. Planes that fly higher have pointier noses and swept back wings, compared to the big blunt things that fly at the lower levels in the thin air;

2. As you get higher, the sky gets darker, because the light can't get through the thick air;

3. To get into space, the rockets need to be VERY pointy and have lots of power - just look at how many can't get through the thick air up there and fall back to the ground. North Korean rocketeers haven't grasped this concept yet, so theirs always fall back into the oggin.

DaveReidUK
6th Jan 2018, 21:51
Does the Flat Earth Theory fit in with the Thick Air Theory?

I think it's more a case of the Thick Theory. :O

I appreciate it's a bit off-topic, but I couldn't resist another look at the Flat Earth Society's website to see whether/how they addressed the question of why there are time zones, since you would expect that everywhere on a flat earth ought to be able to see the Sun at the same time.

Needless to say, they have an explanation for that:


https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/7/70/SunAnimation.gif/540px-SunAnimation.gif


"How do you explain day/night cycles and seasons?

Day and night cycles are easily explained on a flat earth. The sun moves in circles around the North Pole. When it is over your head, it's day. When it's not, it's night. The light of the sun is confined to a limited area and its light acts like a spotlight upon the earth. The picture below illustrates how the sun moves and also how seasons work on a flat earth. The apparent effect of the sun rising and setting is usually explained as a perspective effect."

Makes sense to me. :ugh:

Tankertrashnav
6th Jan 2018, 23:02
To be devil's advocate does that mean anyone who believes in the devil or that god made heaven and earth in seven days has to be sacked?

I'm an atheist, and while I don't believe in the devil, I cant prove that he, she or it does not exist. We can prove that the earth isn't flat though. That is the difference surely?

megan
7th Jan 2018, 00:21
Proof that the earth can't be flat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Earth

Flew with a chap who was of the belief, used to leave magazines from the society in the crewroom. Entry can be gained through a door at either of the poles.

Also worked with an extremely gifted engineer who firmly believed in little green men visiting from outer space. Who's to say if they're off the planet if we accept religion?

parabellum
7th Jan 2018, 00:59
Surely, there can be no doubt that the earth is flat? For example, take off from , say, Singapore, climb to and maintain 31000feet, thirteen hours later descend and land from 31000 feet at London, ergo, the earth is flat! If the earth were not flat, having reached 31000 feet at Singapore, it would then be necessary to make continual corrections downwards during the cruise sector to avoid the aircraft from flying off into space.


It is really very simple! :)

galaxy flyer
7th Jan 2018, 02:23
Brilliant, parabellum. Truly, brilliant.

GF

A Squared
7th Jan 2018, 05:20
She would clearly have had to demonstrate navigational competence to earn her licence and her ability has not been called into question


Ummm, assuming this is in earnest and not a wind-up, the concern isn't her technical abilities. The concern is that her irrational mental state will manifest itself in overt acts prejudicial to safety.

wiggy
7th Jan 2018, 06:35
If she has in fact been a long term flat earther she may well have been able to “demonstrate navigational competence to earn her licence” by simply rote learning the appropriate parts of the syllabus....after exam time in all honesty how many of us have needed to know and apply our knowledge of the shape of the earth in order to actually do the day job or pass competency checks?

Listening to the recording I’m a little more concerned about her whole package of beliefs she claims to have than just the flat earth bit, but whether that’s enough to ground her...dunno....she wouldn’t be the only professional pilot flying around with what many would regard as bizarre beliefs.

treadigraph
7th Jan 2018, 06:44
"How do you explain day/night cycles and seasons?

Day and night cycles are easily explained on a flat earth. The sun moves in circles around the North Pole. When it is over your head, it's day. When it's not, it's night. The light of the sun is confined to a limited area and its light acts like a spotlight upon the earth. The picture below illustrates how the sun moves and also how seasons work on a flat earth. The apparent effect of the sun rising and setting is usually explained as a perspective effect."

Makes sense to me. :ugh:

Looking at that illustration, do they have an explanation for eclipses? :p

KelvinD
7th Jan 2018, 06:49
Looking at that illustration, do they have an explanation for eclipses?
Or various phases of the moon? The one illustrated seems to be a permanent "new" moon!

PDR1
7th Jan 2018, 08:10
Or why the sun and moon travel in circles around points above the earth...

PDR

fox niner
7th Jan 2018, 08:18
Consider this: Example 1:
flight from JFK to LHR. No strategic lateral offset applied. The oceanic track takes the flight from 55N030W to 55N020W. At 25W, the airplane is actually at 5506.0N because of the fact that the earth is round.

The flat earthers will of course say: “yes, but that is because the earth is North Pole concentric, as is illustrated in the pictures that you guys posted above.”
HOWEVER.

Consider this: Example 2:
Flight from Buenos Aires to Capetown. The Oceanic portion of the flight takes the plane from 40S030W to 40S020W. Where is the airplane at 25W?
On a globe, it is actually at 4005.0S thus further south than 40 south.
On a Pancake Earth, which is North Pole concentric, you would end up at 3955.0S at 25W.
Thus a bit north. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Because the Earth is a globe. End of.

If you, as a professional, are supposed to make sure you do not make gross navigational errors, refuse to accept this fact, there is no way you can be trusted on the flight deck.

DaveReidUK
7th Jan 2018, 09:28
Surely, there can be no doubt that the earth is flat? For example, take off from , say, Singapore, climb to and maintain 31000feet, thirteen hours later descend and land from 31000 feet at London, ergo, the earth is flat! If the earth were not flat, having reached 31000 feet at Singapore, it would then be necessary to make continual corrections downwards during the cruise sector to avoid the aircraft from flying off into space.

That brings back memories of struggling in the aeromechanics lectures to get my head around the idea that an aircraft in level flight, or a satellite in orbit, is constantly accelerating towards the centre of the earth. :O

Sallyann1234
7th Jan 2018, 09:41
Let's be realistic about this.
The (ex)pilot doesn't really believe the flat earth nonsense. Either she's got into a wind-up that has gone too far or, more likely, she wants to continue being paid for time off sick, rather than resign or being sacked.

radeng
7th Jan 2018, 09:43
If the earth is flat, how comes an HF radio signal to Oz from the UK can come via either the short path - bearing about 70 degrees - or the long path - bearing about 250 degrees? Or Japan - about 30 degrees short path and about 210 long path. A flat earth can only allow one path.....

wiggy
7th Jan 2018, 10:16
fox 9

Regardless of your point regarding latitudes never understimate the ability of these believers to try and drag you down to their level by pedalling ever more intricate horse poop...:

The extreme conspiracy theorists could simply claim the nav system industry has rigged displayed system output to hide the "truth"... A bit like the Moonlanding lot who wanted independant images of the landing sites for years to prove the Apollo landings didn't happen. Now they have the relatively recent images from several sources clearly showing debris at the Apollo sites the conspiracy theorists move on to claim they are rigged/photoshopped so as to allow "the system" to continue the perpetuation of the "Moon Landing hoax".....I've flown with one or two of those, and I actually find it distressing to see intelligent people with a technical/aviation background buying into this carp..

I try and get off the subject pronto and move onto something less controversial like politics...........

DaveReidUK
7th Jan 2018, 10:25
Let's be realistic about this.
The (ex)pilot doesn't really believe the flat earth nonsense. Either she's got into a wind-up that has gone too far or, more likely, she wants to continue being paid for time off sick, rather than resign or being sacked.

She makes it clear in the interview that, at her request, she only works part-time in her ground job, and presumably is paid pro-rata accordingly.

I don't get the impression that there is any intent to deceive her employer (other than the fact that she's obviously having a laugh winding everyone up).

I take my hat off to her.

Stan Woolley
7th Jan 2018, 10:56
She makes it clear in the interview that, at her request, she only works part-time in her ground job, and presumably is paid pro-rata accordingly.

I don't get the impression that there is any intent to deceive her employer (other than the fact that she's obviously having a laugh winding everyone up).

I take my hat off to her.

Both you and Sallyann appear to be convinced that she can not genuinely believe, that she simply MUST be lying. Is it because you just cannot conceive of a 'proper' pilot of a legacy airline who falls for such 'obvious' silliness?

I'm really not trying to offend anyone but don't you see that it's possible that you're (both) demonstrating examples of boxed thinking of your own.

Can you not just accept her belief and leave it at that, or just say I don't know why she thinks as she does. I disagree with her, it's different to my own, but it takes all sorts.

If this is the first time her unusual opinions have made themselves known in over twenty years with the company I would think either:
1/ Something has changed. (Stress?Brain tumour?)
2/ She has always been open to unusual thoughts.

I think her case is really interesting. Not only because of her, but how people deal with the situation. :ok:

DaveReidUK
7th Jan 2018, 11:33
Both you and Sallyann appear to be convinced that she can not genuinely believe, that she simply MUST be lying. Is it because you just cannot conceive of a 'proper' pilot of a legacy airline who falls for such 'obvious' silliness?

In a word, yes.

I'm really not trying to offend anyone but don't you see that it's possible that you're (both) demonstrating examples of boxed thinking of your own.

No offence taken. Without hearing from the lady herself, we'll probably never know for sure either way. But until then, I stand by my view.

B2N2
7th Jan 2018, 11:35
Alcohol and religion are a universally accepted drug and belief system.
Heroin and flat earth are not.

The problem arises if your belief conflicts with your job.
Would you want to fly with a person who beliefs Jezus Christ provides the lift? Flying is science based and not belief based.

Sallyann1234
7th Jan 2018, 11:49
In a word, yes.

In the same word, yes.

Krystal n chips
7th Jan 2018, 11:53
Alcohol and religion are a universally accepted drug and belief system.
Heroin and flat earth are not.

The problem arises if your belief conflicts with your job.
Would you want to fly with a person who beliefs Jezus Christ provides the lift? Flying is science based and not belief based.

Well I've met a few drivers who believed they were somewhere above Zeus when it came to flying......

Stan Woolley
7th Jan 2018, 11:53
In a word, yes.


Haha. Thanks for your refreshing honesty. (You too Sallyann)

It doesn't matter to me any longer, as barring a jump backwards in time, I won't ever get my medical back, but I am quite worried for others that may have similar views. I'm not at all sold on the flat earth or Chemtrail 'theories', but I do tend to think unconventionally, now that I have had the past few years to investigate topics of a 'supernatural' nature in some depth.

Bergerie1
7th Jan 2018, 11:58
Stan,

You may be in good company:-
The Spiritualist who saved Britain ? Air Chief Marshal Lord Dowding?s brilliant tactics prevented Nazi invasion - Psychic News? (http://www.psychicnews.org.uk/articles/Lord-Dowding-The-Spiritualist-who-saved-Britain)

ShotOne
7th Jan 2018, 12:23
“Alcohol and religion a universally accepted belief system...”?? Really? Which religion? If one applies the same forensic standard used earlier to discredit flat earth, many religious beliefs swing between “very unlikely” and “scientifically disproven”. Yet anyone losing their career over religious belief would have rock- solid legal recourse On the other hand excessive alcohol consumption would be solid grounds for dismissal (and conflict with many peoples religious beliefs).

PDR1
7th Jan 2018, 12:51
In the same word, yes.

A third yes, with a side order of "because a pilot holding such a belief actually demonstrates a closed mind susceptible to dogma rather than evidence". This is why I mention navigation. A pilot will employ navigation techniques, and observe their success, which only work if the earth is not flat. A pilot will routinely observe phenomena (like the way a constant-heading, constant speed flight will follow a curved path along the ground whenever the course is not along a cardinal path (ie due N,S,E or W), which would be impossible if the earth was flat.

If such a pilot failed to even question (let alone abandon) a flat-earth belief they are clearly incapable (whether intellectually or emotionally) of comparing belief-based prediction to reality and using any difference to revise the beliefs - their mind is closed to even the evidence of their own eyes.

Such people should not be allowed near the controls of aircraft because they are patently incapable of learning from experience. Such a pilot can only ever accumulate a few minutes of flying experience, no matter how many thousands of times they may have repeated it. A pilot can't claim respect for "5,000hrs Jet P1" if they took no learning whatsoever from any one of those hours. Actually I personally feel such people shouldn't be allowed out in public without supervision, but I appreciate that's an extreme view which may not be shared by others.

PDR

chuks
7th Jan 2018, 15:06
I think there's a third possibility. That would be that the pilot in question is able to hold to two conflicting beliefs.

Yes, we work with flat charts, but we are expected to understand that they are mere approximations of a curved surface, usually nowadays a "Lambert conformal conic projection." That results in part of the chart above the curved surface, part of it below it, and some of it, two standard parallels, actually following the surface itself.

Anyway, if you want to look at it in a certain way, there's the surface of the earth officially laid out flat, not curved at all. We do work from two-dimensional charts, not three-dimensional globes, and when you fly low-level in a place like the middle of the USA, around Wichita, Kansas, for example, where the landscape features "section roads," it really does look just like a flat chart!

I think it's plausible that someone could get off on the wrong track working backwards from the flat chart to end up with a flat earth rather than one that's spheroidal. Yes, you must learn all that hocus-pocus in order to pass your tests, considering the cosine of the latitude and all, but when you look at it, the earth is flat ... sort of. It's also curved, sort of, but it might be more fun for some of us to think of it simply as flat.

ShotOne
7th Jan 2018, 15:32
So, PDR your position is that a pilot who “failed to abandon a belief”, let’s say in virgin conception, or that future events are predetermined by a divine entity, or that millions of species were created in a single day must be “removed from the controls”?

Sallyann1234
7th Jan 2018, 17:26
So, PDR your position is that a pilot who “failed to abandon a belief”, let’s say in virgin conception, or that future events are predetermined by a divine entity, or that millions of species were created in a single day must be “removed from the controls”?
Irrelevant. None of those beliefs have anything whatsoever to do with flying an aircraft.

A Squared
7th Jan 2018, 17:33
In a word, yes.


Interesting, that's pretty much what I suspected; It wasn't that I had missed some obvious giveaway in the interview that she was joking, that really your basis for believing it is a wind-up is that "an airline pilot couldn't possibly believe that."

I completely disagree. I'm not a psychologist, but in my observation there is a defect which allows such people to compartmentalize such irrationalities, while maintaining their rationality in other aspects of their lives. Consider the intelligent, educated professional woman who nonetheless remains in a marriage where her husband beats her. My (non-professional) observation is that in the case of chemtrailers and flat earthers there is a very strong element of being "smarter than the sheeple" in having realized "The truth" and that element appeals to some portion of their ego strongly enough for their minds to employ a variety of denial and defense mechanisms to protect reason and rationality from destroying that belief which is the basis if the "I'm smarter than the sheeple" phenomenon.

ShotOne
7th Jan 2018, 17:39
. Her navigational ability or skill at flying an aircraft have not been called into question at any point.

And for the record, I’ve nothing against religion. But the “sack her” camp must explain why some unscientific beliefs are ok but others justify summary dismissal.

A Squared
7th Jan 2018, 17:43
fox 9

Regardless of your point regarding latitudes never understimate the ability of these believers to try and drag you down to their level by pedalling ever more intricate horse poop...:

The extreme conspiracy theorists could simply claim the nav system industry has rigged displayed system output to hide the "truth"... A bit like the Moonlanding lot who wanted independant images of the landing sites for years to prove the Apollo landings didn't happen. Now they have the relatively recent images from several sources clearly showing debris at the Apollo sites the conspiracy theorists move on to claim they are rigged/photoshopped so as to allow "the system" to continue the perpetuation of the "Moon Landing hoax".....I've flown with one or two of those, and I actually find it distressing to see intelligent people with a technical/aviation background buying into this carp..


I haven't spent a lot of time digging into the whole flat earth thing, but as I understand it, the whole bit about satellites, navigation and such are explained by some sort of conspiracy in which things are rigged to fool the masses. The thing I don't get is, Why? why would The Powers That Be, The Illuminati, UN, Trilateral Commission ... whoever is perpetrating this hoax, why are they doing it? Who benefits and how by fooling the masses into believing that the earth is spherical when it's really flat? In the case of the moon landing, there's a pretty clear motive; for the world to believe that the US beat the USSR to the moon, whcih was a pretty big thing back then. I can't imagine a reason to conceal the earths flatness from the population.

Brookmans Park
7th Jan 2018, 17:58
The graphic on post#73seems to prove that Antarctica is in permanent darkness,would anyone care to light a candle in their igloo or tent to confirm that

DaveReidUK
7th Jan 2018, 19:30
Interesting, that's pretty much what I suspected; It wasn't that I had missed some obvious giveaway in the interview that she was joking, that really your basis for believing it is a wind-up is that "an airline pilot couldn't possibly believe that."

Mostly, but not entirely. IMHO her demeanour, particularly during the extended version of the interview, struck me as someone who was having a bit of fun at the expense of the host.

And possibly no obvious giveaways, but the discussion between the two of them about how gyros couldn't possibly work if the earth was a globe rang a few alarm bells as well.

Sallyann1234
7th Jan 2018, 20:58
. Her navigational ability or skill at flying an aircraft have not been called into question at any point..
Therefore her knowledge and of the principles of flight and navigation are beyond question. She has passed all the relevant examinations and reviews necessary to obtain and hold that highly responsible position.

PAnd for the record, I’ve nothing against religion. But the “sack her” camp must explain why some unscientific beliefs are ok but others justify summary dismissal.
If belief in a religion disqualifies a pilot, there will be a lot of planes grounded. Why should you demand an explanation for something that most others accept?

419
7th Jan 2018, 21:18
So, PDR your position is that a pilot who “failed to abandon a belief”, let’s say in virgin conception, or that future events are predetermined by a divine entity, or that millions of species were created in a single day must be “removed from the controls”?

Irrelevant. None of those beliefs have anything whatsoever to do with flying an aircraft.

I disagree Sallyanne.
Would you feel safe in an aircraft being flown by a pilot who believed that all future events were predetermined by a divine entity?

How about if that aircraft suffered a major malfunction and the pilot simply decided to let go of the controls and start praying because the final outcome of that malfunction was already predetermined and they believed that they wouldn't be able to change what was going to happen?

Sallyann1234
7th Jan 2018, 21:50
I disagree Sallyanne.
Would you feel safe in an aircraft being flown by a pilot who believed that all future events were predetermined by a divine entity?
I may have done! We have no idea of the beliefs of the pilots when we board. Amongst the pilots of the world there are probably followers of every known religion. We simply trust that their training and experience is sufficient for the job they are about to do.

How about if that aircraft suffered a major malfunction and the pilot simply decided to let go of the controls and start praying because the final outcome of that malfunction was already predetermined and they believed that they wouldn't be able to change what was going to happen?
Inside the locked flight deck there are two pilots whose job is to react and respond to any malfunction, and they will have demonstrated that ability.
I won't be aware of what they are doing in there. But I imagine that if one of them thought the malfunction was predestined, they would also think that they had been predestined to be there to deal with it.

419
7th Jan 2018, 22:00
I may have done! We have no idea of the beliefs of the pilots when we board.
But if you were aware, would you still be 100% confident that the pilot would do everything in their power to change the outcome of an incident even if they believed that a supreme being had already planned the outcome?

But I imagine that if one of them thought the malfunction was predestined, they would also think that they had been predestined to be there to deal with it
Unfortunately, not all strongly religious people act this way.
You've only to think of the religious followers who don't allow certain medical treatments as they think the outcome of any problems is down to their god. They don't however consider that their god may have had something to do with the fact that the doctors who could treat them are on in that position because of god.

Sallyann1234
7th Jan 2018, 22:32
But your entire premise is false because I do not know, and can never know, the religious beliefs of the two pilots on the aircraft. I just accept that they will do their jobs efficiently as they always have done.

Do you therefore never fly, or take a train or a bus, in case the pilot/driver has an extreme religious belief that might jeopardise your safety?

On second thoughts, don't both to answer as this is getting very silly and I'm off to bed.

jack11111
7th Jan 2018, 22:43
If she is having a fun windup at KLM's expense...isn't that fraud drawing a salary?

Also,
ShotOne wrote: "And for the record, I’ve nothing against religion. But the “sack her” camp must explain why some unscientific beliefs are ok but others justify summary dismissal."

Yes, there is that problem.

SOPS
8th Jan 2018, 05:28
I know some one that is 100 percent convinced that the earth is controlled by shape shifting lizards, that they come to earth through a "portal" in space...he well tell you of is beliefs for hours..he even runs "seminars" to educate the masses on these "facts"

DaveReidUK
8th Jan 2018, 06:37
If she is having a fun windup at KLM's expense...isn't that fraud drawing a salary?

What makes you think she hasn't been performing the duties that she is paid for ?

If it's a wind-up, it's at the Flat-Earthers' expense, not KLM's.

space-shuttle-driver
8th Jan 2018, 07:19
Sickness leave since March and now twice a week in the office - for full salary. KLM and the Netherlands do seem to have a really, really good program to protect the pilots who lost their medical. She's an amazing actor too, to purposely speak so stupid on that interview.
Well done Lady!
Still, if THIS is THE legal loophole for pre-retirement, then why don't others follow?

ShotOne
8th Jan 2018, 07:26
Who knows? Perhaps she’s making a serious point about the inconsistent way we treat people with different beliefs?

Sallyann I’ve never refused to travel on account of someone’s belief: it’s YOU demanding this pilot be sacked for hers. Yet you say you’re ok in a tight spot in the hands of someone who regards death as a joyous rebirth rather than a catastrophe?

DaveReidUK
8th Jan 2018, 07:49
Sickness leave since March and now twice a week in the office - for full salary

Where do you get the "full salary" part from ?

Most airlines have a proportion of part-time and/or job-sharing employees. They get paid for the hours/days that they work. It's not rocket science.

Sallyann1234
8th Jan 2018, 08:52
Who knows? Perhaps she’s making a serious point about the inconsistent way we treat people with different beliefs?
Possibly. But I think some of the other suggestions are much more likely.

Sallyann I’ve never refused to travel on account of someone’s belief:
Of course not. Unless you have interviewed the pilots before the flight you have no idea of their beliefs and motives. You have to take their abilities on trust, like everyone else.

it’s YOU demanding this pilot be sacked for hers.Wrong. I have said nothing of the sort. I'm content to let the airline resolve the matter.

Yet you say you’re ok in a tight spot in the hands of someone who regards death as a joyous rebirth rather than a catastrophe?
Wrong again. That is your obsession. I've said that I'm happy to rely on the training and experience of the two pilots in the flight deck.

Mariner9
8th Jan 2018, 12:51
I can't imagine a reason to conceal the earths flatness from the population.

Same reason that some women wear padded bras?

hiflymk3
8th Jan 2018, 13:16
Is there a noun for flat earthers, like flatulents?

B2N2
8th Jan 2018, 13:24
“Alcohol and religion a universally accepted belief system...”?? Really? Which religion? If one applies the same forensic standard used earlier to discredit flat earth, many religious beliefs swing between “very unlikely” and “scientifically disproven”. Yet anyone losing their career over religious belief would have rock- solid legal recourse On the other hand excessive alcohol consumption would be solid grounds for dismissal (and conflict with many peoples religious beliefs).

Same as religion there is such a thing as alcohol in moderation..8-12 hrs etc
In your haste you missed my point.
Accepted drug ( within boundaries) is alcohol. Accepted belief without foundation = any man made religion.

However the airplane doesn’t fly because of faith in Jezus.
You have no place in aviation if you discard the physics upon which it is based.
You’re certifiable if you believe in the flat earth “theory”.

G-CPTN
8th Jan 2018, 13:37
However the airplane doesn’t fly because of faith in Jezus.

Don't the lift-pixies work for the sky-fairy?

squidie
8th Jan 2018, 13:47
Just decided to browse their community forum; some weird stuff going on over there…

dook
8th Jan 2018, 14:07
If the Earth is a sphere, then why do all the oceans and seas not run down to the south pole ?

PDR1
8th Jan 2018, 14:08
Don't the lift-pixies work for the sky-fairy?

Well that's the Mary Shafer model, but it's Lift Demons and thrust pixies, and only the theistic versions of the model include a sky fairy (or blue angel, depending on which church you follow). Atheistic engineers tend more to the infinite demons model, in which lift demons are supported by smaller Lift Demons, whose lift was in turn produced by even smaller Lift Demons in a regressive series (as proposed by the great Greek philosopher-scientist Miasma). This does of course violate the laws of logic as an example of Zenos Paradox, but pilots are confident that such laws of for the observance of lesser people and should not be of any concern to proper people.

PDR

DaveReidUK
8th Jan 2018, 14:30
Just decided to browse their community forum; some weird stuff going on over there…

There seem to be huge, permanent arguments among the Flat-Earthers about exactly how a flat earth works.

Although many of them do appear to have mastered the art of holding several contradictory views simultaneously. :O

PDR1
8th Jan 2018, 14:34
Ah - so you've met the wife then...

PDR

RAT 5
8th Jan 2018, 15:05
I knew a well endowed Dutch lady who took pride in displaying a full T-shirt declaring.
"not everything in Holland is flat".

alwayzinit
8th Jan 2018, 16:18
So Flat Earthers are out, yet those who believe saying some latin over a biscuit and a glass of wine turns them into some middle eastern genetic material are ok?

Hat, coat, door.................................:ugh:

PDR1
8th Jan 2018, 16:30
So Flat Earthers are out, yet those who believe saying some latin over a biscuit and a glass of wine turns them into some middle eastern genetic material are ok?


Depends what they are saying, but quidquid latine dictum sit altum sontur as we say in my local.

PDR

space-shuttle-driver
8th Jan 2018, 17:24
Where do you get the "full salary" part from ?

.

She says it to the interviewer about 2/3 down the conversation.

Chronus
8th Jan 2018, 19:35
I say ban her using Jepp charts and mount a globe on the control column instead. That should cure her in no time.

Pontius Navigator
8th Jan 2018, 20:36
Fox Niner, having flown 58N 50W to 58N 10W many times were always at 58N.

Pontius Navigator
8th Jan 2018, 20:39
And just because the Earth is flat does not prevent the Sun and Moon flying around the Earth

DaveReidUK
8th Jan 2018, 21:24
Where do you get the "full salary" part from ?She says it to the interviewer about 2/3 down the conversation.

You mean the bit where she says "I only have to come in two times a week because I work 50%" ?

Loose rivets
9th Jan 2018, 00:18
Your post, 105, Dave.

And possibly no obvious giveaways, but the discussion between the two of them about how gyros couldn't possibly work if the earth was a globe rang a few alarm bells as well.

Clearly a latitude nut. (geddit?)

Um... lifting...
9th Jan 2018, 01:33
D'ye ever notice, in the Star Trek universe, that apparently the galaxy is in two dimensions. All the ships are oriented the same way up and they can't seem to avoid interacting with one another.

Flat-earthers the lot of them, I should imagine.

Loose rivets
9th Jan 2018, 01:33
I've had a quick look through and haven't seen a picture of her. Is there one anywhere?

She sounds kinda cute, and with kids to at least partly take care of. Now, one of them got seriously ill. Has there at any point been any indication that she bargained with the flat earth gods or placed herself under some similar perceived contract? The gist is this:

I am acquainted with a couple that were married. Him a professional, her . . . strikingly beautiful. I won't say what she did but probably a high earner. She got some kind of tumour.

The operation was very, very involved and during the long periods of distress it seems she make a pact - or perhaps is just grateful, I'm not sure - but she started cajoling her husband to believe. He simple could not act out a totally false belief and LSS they grew - or more likely - were torn apart. It was heart rending.

Now I'm wondering if this pilot made any kind of plea. I know it would normally be God, but who knows? When a mother sees a child ill, she is capable of anything. Maybe the dumbness we hear is because she knows full well how things work but is trying to make up feasible arguments just to paint a picture people with believe. It's possible she may want to lose the job -and the new house - in some kind of self-flagellation. The route she took may be one of chance but now she's stuck with it - without skilled help.

Having said all this my whole career was altered by one alcoholic and psychotic pilot. Not only this, but while everyone knew what was going on, several fine, hardworking, training staff did what the fleet manager did. Nothing.

Having gone through that, and some other issues with bosses that were willing to sell their souls, I frankly don't find this pour soul that surprising. It's sad, and if there's no very typical reaction-pattern that fits, caused by her son's illness, then her career is over. So sad.

I had a pal in Essex that was bi-polar. In fact, two. Right as rain one moment and daft as a brush then next. I always thought I could talk them down with logic when it hit and one day I got my chance. Well, not a chance would describe it better. They were gone. Walking one way down a lovely avenue in Frinton, fine, turned to come home, and it started.

Both died young. One at his own hand.

deanm
9th Jan 2018, 03:47
The simplest means to debunk flat Earthers is to ask them to point out the (northern hemisphere) star Polaris from Australia - which can't be done!
Or vice versa: show me The Southern Cross from Europe - which also can't be done!

Ascend Charlie
9th Jan 2018, 03:58
Is it possible that all the flat-earthers are just baiting everybody else for some fun?

Believing in a flat earth is much like believing in chemtrails or the Great Sky Pixie. Use a bit of Suspension of Disbelief and there is fun to be had anywhere.

fab777
9th Jan 2018, 06:42
I completely disagree. I'm not a psychologist, but in my observation there is a defect which allows such people to compartmentalize such irrationalities, while maintaining their rationality in other aspects of their lives. Consider the intelligent, educated professional woman who nonetheless remains in a marriage where her husband beats her. My (non-professional) observation is that in the case of chemtrailers and flat earthers there is a very strong element of being "smarter than the sheeple" in having realized "The truth" and that element appeals to some portion of their ego strongly enough for their minds to employ a variety of denial and defense mechanisms to protect reason and rationality from destroying that belief which is the basis if the "I'm smarter than the sheeple" phenomenon.

I flew with one of those FO just yesterday. That was an interesting day... not to mention the captain who instructed me about Niburu, that was back in the days. The guy got famous within my airline...

DaveReidUK
9th Jan 2018, 06:53
Is it possible that all the flat-earthers are just baiting everybody else for some fun?

I have no doubt that's true of some, possibly many of them.

But equally there seem to be a proportion that just love the idea of a conspiracy, in this case by governments, the science community, NASA, etc to conceal the flat-earth truth from the masses.

Either way, you're right in that there is clearly a lot of fun to be had in peddling the idea.

Sallyann1234
9th Jan 2018, 08:56
There will soon be proof of the flat earth! The Russians are drilling down to get through to the other side. :ok:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole

treadigraph
9th Jan 2018, 09:14
If they've only gone 40000' down in six years less than my life time, I won't hold my breath! They should have started boring closer to the edge, it's probably thinner there (unless it's a deep pan).

Trouble is, if they get there, the Antipodeans will have a quicker way of getting to Blighty.

PDR1
9th Jan 2018, 10:18
D'ye ever notice, in the Star Trek universe, that apparently the galaxy is in two dimensions. All the ships are oriented the same way up and they can't seem to avoid interacting with one another.

Flat-earthers the lot of them, I should imagine.

Never mind that - what about the way that in the original series spacecraft always orbitter the "upper half" of a planet, and they banked into the turn...

:)

From the nerd books I gather that this was indeed the subject of heated debate between the producers and the networks, but reality lost out to a belief that the (american) viewing public would expect to see the banked turn.

When they came to make the "next generation" series the producers dug their toes in and said that there must always be some sort of technically plausible justification for the technical stuff on the show. And they do actually have one for every item except the matter transporter* whi'm sure you all noticed) contravenes the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. So for that they incorporated one of the many "in-jokes" with the sub-module in the transporter system called the "Heisenberg Compensator" that occaisionally gets mentioned when they're doing maintenance.

NALOPKT(&EFGAS),

PDR

* which was only invented in the original series to save on set costs and screen time for space-to-surface vehicles

chuks
9th Jan 2018, 10:18
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Diversity_of_Creatures/The_Village_that_Voted_the_Earth_was_Flat

Um... lifting...
9th Jan 2018, 10:58
From the nerd books I gather that this was indeed the subject of heated debate between the producers and the networks, but reality lost out to a belief that the (american) viewing public would expect to see the banked turn.

Is this some kind of veiled way of suggesting that each planet has its own specific variety of Australians and it's just better not to beam the red shirts down there willy-nilly?

As for the Heisenberg Compensator, it seems to me that Sallyann's airliners have their own version of Schrödinger's cockpit.

Sallyann1234
9th Jan 2018, 11:06
As for the Heisenberg Compensator, it seems to me that Sallyann's airliners have their own version of Schrödinger's cockpit.
That's right! The flight deck is a sealed box with a cat as the pilot. :ok:

Um... lifting...
9th Jan 2018, 11:10
That's right! The flight deck is a sealed box with a cat as the pilot.

Imagine if someone smuggles a laser pointer aboard. :eek:

Trossie
9th Jan 2018, 11:45
I hope that this could be finalised before we 'jet off' for our holiday to the 'smaller antipode' in a few months time... I don't want to risk falling off the edge during our travels! Especially as we were planning to travel 'all the way around'.

Pontius Navigator
9th Jan 2018, 14:37
All these flat earth sceptics overlook the obvious. The flat earth has two sides. Half way there you simply slip over onto the obverse.

John Marsh
9th Jan 2018, 16:12
As we create our own reality, flattists and roundists can all be accommodated! Indeed, they already have been...

We just need to understand how reality works:

Our perception determines the reality we create.

Our beliefs influence our perception.

Therefore, in the days of mass belief in a flat Earth, the Earth was indeed...flat!:}

And now that we're (almost) all enlightened and sensible, and certain that the Earth is round...well, so it is!:ok:

(If you want to have some fun with weird folks and their ideas, it helps to be a bit weird oneself.):)

Um... lifting...
9th Jan 2018, 16:30
One mustn't forget than in Roald Dahl's Charlie and The Chocolate Factory there were square candies that looked 'round.

One forgets that at one's peril.

Trossie
9th Jan 2018, 16:32
All these flat earth sceptics overlook the obvious. The flat earth has two sides. Half way there you simply slip over onto the obverse.So obvious! I'd completely missed that!! How does the 'slip' happen so that you don't notice it, does it happen at night?

PDR1
9th Jan 2018, 16:47
In an n-dimensional space a disk and a sphere are simultaneously the same shape and completely disimilar shapes, depending partly on the realtive velocity of the observer but mainly on whether the supporting turtles gave been fed.

PDR

Trossie
9th Jan 2018, 16:49
Turtles or elephants?

PDR1
9th Jan 2018, 19:36
Is there a difference?

PDR

Pontius Navigator
9th Jan 2018, 21:05
Trossie, it is obvious. As the body departs from the centre its velocity increases. At the moment it reaches the edge it will have reached its maximum outward velocity. At the instance it tips over its velocity will change from positive to negative in an imperceptible instant.

Simples.

Um... lifting...
9th Jan 2018, 21:32
At the instance it tips over its velocity will change from positive to negative in an imperceptible instant.


What if one is carrying brimming cups of tea at that flickering instant?

Hmmmmmmmmmm?

G-CPTN
9th Jan 2018, 21:51
What if one is carrying brimming cups of tea at that flickering instant?

As it is postulated that the southern boundary is a mountainous wall of ice (Antarctica), the tea would quickly freeze.

clark y
9th Jan 2018, 22:05
So if it is flat, why can't it be square like a piece of paper?
Why does it have to be round?

If it was square, the edges at the corners would have prime real estate with great views along two sides out over the ether.

DaveReidUK
9th Jan 2018, 22:32
So if it is flat, why can't it be square like a piece of paper?
Why does it have to be round?

One Flat-Earth school of thought maintains that the Earth is not only flat, but infinite in area, so the question of what shape it is doesn't arise ...

clark y
9th Jan 2018, 22:43
A tube? That would almost keep the hollow earth believers happy as well. Anyway, I've gotta depart for a couple of days of chemtrail dispersing.

419
9th Jan 2018, 22:47
Trossie, it is obvious. As the body departs from the centre its velocity increases. At the moment it reaches the edge it will have reached its maximum outward velocity. At the instance it tips over its velocity will change from positive to negative in an imperceptible instant.

Simples.

What if one is carrying brimming cups of tea at that flickering instant?

Hmmmmmmmmmm?

Could that theory explain why on some airline flights, the cabin crew suspend the refreshments service for no apparent reason then begin it again a short while later despite there having been no signs of turbulence?

Loose rivets
9th Jan 2018, 22:48
What time is it Eccles?

I, I've got it written down 'ere on a piece of paper. A nice man wrote the time down for me this morning.

Bluebottle. Ooooh, then why do you carry it around with you Eccles?

Eccles. Well, umm, if a anybody asks me the ti-ime, I ca-can show it to dem.

Bluebottle. Wait a minute Eccles, my good man...

Eccles. What is it fellow?


Etc., etc.


So, if you think that's daft, have a ganders at some relatively new thinking. (no pun intended.)

Well, in fact don't laugh. A huge amount of work is going into quantum cosmology.



The researchers, from the University of Southampton (UK), University of Waterloo (Canada), Perimeter Institute (Canada), INFN, Lecce (Italy) and the University of Salento (Italy), have published findings in the journal Physical Review Letters.

A holographic universe, an idea first suggested in the 1990s, is one where all the information, which makes up our 3D ‘reality’ (plus time) is contained in a 2D surface on its boundaries.

Professor Kostas Skenderis of Mathematical Sciences at the University of Southampton explains: “Imagine that everything you see, feel and hear in three dimensions (and your perception of time) in fact emanates from a flat two-dimensional field. The idea is similar to that of ordinary holograms where a three-dimensional image is encoded in a two-dimensional surface, such as in the hologram on a credit card. However, this time, the entire universe is encoded!”