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button push ignored
3rd Jan 2018, 23:05
From DeTelegraaf.nl
Also reported by NLTimes.nl
Dec 28th, 2017.
Evening Transavia flight from Sevilla to Amsterdam.
Moroccan male overheard saying “Allahu Akbar”
Passengers report it to cabin crew.
Cabin crew tell Purser.
Purser tells Captain, who returns to the gate.
Emergency crews respond en masse.
Man is arrested by Spanish police, and later released.
Flight delayed 24 hours.

Ex Cargo Clown
3rd Jan 2018, 23:55
Surprised the rest of the Pax didn't flatten him.

Capn Bloggs
4th Jan 2018, 00:13
Delayed 24 hours? Sounds drastic...

Jet II
4th Jan 2018, 01:09
I suspect that the entire aircraft had to be searched for possible explosive devices - then the crew run out of hours, etc. etc.

ExXB
4th Jan 2018, 03:31
From the inter web thingy. the phrase "Allahu Akbar" (الله أكبر) is a common phrase used by all Muslims in various situations, including the Salah (obligatory five prayers a day)

Load Toad
4th Jan 2018, 04:21
What a good job he didn't say 'God is great'

KelvinD
4th Jan 2018, 06:02
Why does the thread title say "screams", with the report going on to state "says"? Change the title!

Council Van
4th Jan 2018, 06:21
A case of the actions of a minority of Muslims affecting the majority.

Saying "Allahu Akbar" will be perseved to be the same as "I have a bomb" by many people and even if used in an innocent way is something that it is perhaps best not said out loud on an aircraft if you want to get to your intended destination.

DaveReidUK
4th Jan 2018, 06:38
The passenger was talking on the phone (to his father) at the time.

Council Van
4th Jan 2018, 07:16
Perhaps he should have had his phone turned off, or at least in flight mode, if the Captain had to ''return to the gate''.

Hotel Tango
4th Jan 2018, 07:36
It is not generally part of the culture of this generation of younger Moroccans to abide by rules and regulations. They only apply to others.

Heathrow Harry
4th Jan 2018, 07:40
applies to most passengers of all nationalities TBH - they would rather cut off the blood supply to their brain than switch off their mobile phone.

Council Van
4th Jan 2018, 07:41
The same can be said for many of my Customers from the North West of the UK!

DaveReidUK
4th Jan 2018, 07:47
Perhaps he should have had his phone turned off, or at least in flight mode, if the Captain had to ''return to the gate''.

It's not clear whether the flight had actually left the gate, or if the doors had even been closed.

The Dutch press report quoted by the OP states that the man was arrested, whereas the local (Seville) press say he wasn't:

La psicosis por la amenaza terrorista deja en tierra un vuelo a Amsterdam (http://www.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/Suspendido-malentendidas-palabras-pasajero-musulman_0_1204380092.html)

So jumping to the conclusion that he had broken or disregarded any rules or regulations may be a tad premature.

fox niner
4th Jan 2018, 09:02
Shouting Allahhu Akbar on a western registered aircraft is one of the dumbest thing you can do in your entire life.
Is that fair? No. It is reality.
The world isn’t fair, deal with it.

Super VC-10
4th Jan 2018, 09:14
"Allahu Akbar" normally means "I am about to do something that any right-minded person will find totally abhorrent. My saying this justifies it"

Perfectly reasonable reaction in this case, methinks.

andrasz
4th Jan 2018, 09:34
@VC-10

Having lived in several ME countries I can assure you, the phrase is used all the time in everyday conversation, pretty much equivalent to the fine 'Oooh my gawd' uttered all the time in the land of the brave and the free.

Reverserbucket
4th Jan 2018, 09:41
And is also reported by the press as the phrase used by Muslim terrorists before committing an act of atrocity.

DaveReidUK
4th Jan 2018, 12:02
Shouting Allahhu Akbar on a western registered aircraft is one of the dumbest thing you can do in your entire life.

Then it's a good job the guy didn't shout it.

"Allahu Akbar" normally means "I am about to do something that any right-minded person will find totally abhorrent. My saying this justifies it"

Actually the normal context fot uttering those words is during prayer or at an event like a wedding or the birth of a child.

It's reckoned that any Muslim who observes their faith will say it over a million times during their lifetime.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

artschool
4th Jan 2018, 17:57
Then it's a good job the guy didn't shout it.



Actually the normal context fot uttering those words is during prayer or at an event like a wedding or the birth of a child.

It's reckoned that any Muslim who observes their faith will say it over a million times during their lifetime.

But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

can you shout it in a crowded theatre?

flash8
4th Jan 2018, 18:23
can you shout it in a crowded <insert place>

In Moscow you'll likely never make it past that utterance before law of the street "Russki style" takes over, so I'd hate to think what would happen in a confined space full of people, especially as three large jets have been taken out in the cruise by a certain minority (TU-154/TU-134 back in '04, A320 recently).

Didn't one Italian city mayor state that shouting "alluh akbar" in a crowded place will liable to be your last words before you are taken out.. and he meant it.. wasn't rhetoric.

Commonsense should prevail but it doesn't... the masses are already too edgy.

DaveReidUK
4th Jan 2018, 19:42
three large jets have been taken out in the cruise by a certain minority (TU-154/TU-134 back in '04, A320 recently)

No A320 has ever been lost to terrorist action.

flash8
4th Jan 2018, 20:13
Actually two not only quite possible but very likely (both involving Egypt... coincidence eh?), one has been shown to be terrorism.

Metrojet Flight 9268 ( Russian spokesman Dmitry Peskov re-iterated that "our experts concluded this was a terrorist attack"), On 24 February 2016, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi acknowledged that terrorism caused the crash... with arrests as well, whilst not specifically an A320 it was A320 family (A321-231).. a pedantic point.

And ... EgyptAir Flight 804... which I'm afraid (despite French protestations given the departure) is likely the same.

So I correct myself... two.

DaveReidUK
4th Jan 2018, 20:25
Your original reference was to an A320 being downed (Metrojet was an A321).

Re MS804, I'll leave you to your opinion as I never, ever argue with conspiracy theorists.

Anyway, we should probably get back on topic.

Old King Coal
4th Jan 2018, 22:00
One can but guess what phrase was probably said immediately prior to the bomb going off aboard this Daallo Air flight from Mogadishu/Somalia to Djibouti, in Feb 2016.

http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2016/2/6/057ccf2855a24caebcbb49ce88846716_18.jpg

KelvinD
4th Jan 2018, 22:06
What are all these silly references to "shouting"? For those who perhaps read the headline but not the body of the post, I shall reproduce the salient part here:
Moroccan male overheard saying “Allahu Akbar”

747 jock
5th Jan 2018, 00:25
What are all these silly references to "shouting"? For those who perhaps read the headline but not the body of the post, I shall reproduce the salient part here:

Maybe the people who are using the "silly reference" to shouting have read the actual newspaper article.

https://nltimes.nl/2018/01/01/allahu-akbar-prompts-transavia-flight-evacuation

The plane returned to the gate, was evacuated and the man was arrested. A spokesperson for Transavia confirmed the incident to the newspaper, but could not say exactly what the man said. "A passenger who shouted suspicious slogans was transferred to the authorities by us. We do not know what happened to him. He did not fly back the next day in any case", the spokesperson said.

Gauges and Dials
5th Jan 2018, 01:46
"Allahu Akbar" normally means "I am about to do something that any right-minded person will find totally abhorrent. My saying this justifies it"

Perfectly reasonable reaction in this case, methinks.


Where on earth do you get that idea? "Allahu Akbar" is what you say when you hear that your cousin's cancer is in remission. It's what you say when your friend tells you he and his wife are expecting a baby. Etc.

mickjoebill
5th Jan 2018, 02:23
As we do with many greetings prayers and exclaimations, we raise our voice and give them more emphasis. “Happy birthday!”

If so, in this case, in the context of eavesdropping on a phone call in an aircraft, the phrase would have “popped” from the background ambient noise and could be misinterpreted as being a public rather than a private exclamation.

Mjb

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 06:32
Maybe the people who are using the "silly reference" to shouting have read the actual newspaper article.

https://nltimes.nl/2018/01/01/allahu-akbar-prompts-transavia-flight-evacuation

That would be the same article that missed the rather crucial fact that it was actually a telephone conversation that was overheard and also stated, wrongly, that the man was arrested (he wasn't):

El subdelegado del Gobierno en Sevilla, Ricardo Gil-Toresano, ha explicado este viernes que se trató de una falsa alarma y destacó que el pasajero no fue detenido en ningún momento, "porque no había ningún motivo para ello".

ExXB
5th Jan 2018, 07:38
Surprised not hearing the airline reacted with “an abundance of caution”. The terrorists are winning.

Nemrytter
5th Jan 2018, 08:25
"Allahu Akbar" normally means "I am about to do something that any right-minded person will find totally abhorrent. My saying this justifies it"

Perfectly reasonable reaction in this case, methinks.I'm a right-minded person (or at least I like to think I am) and I find your bigotry and ignorance totally abhorrent. You're the problem here.

VP959
5th Jan 2018, 09:15
I'm a right-minded person (or at least I like to think I am) and I find your bigotry and ignorance totally abhorrent. You're the problem here.

I wholeheartedly agree. Every diligent Muslim says this at least five times a day, in addition to it being a general expression used whenever there is a celebratory event, in effect, praising God for the event, be it a birthday, wedding announcement, birth or whatever.

It's a very narrow minded bunch of bigots that have got it into their thick heads that "God is great! is an expression that means they are about to be killed. In the vast majority of cases, hearing it just means you have overheard someone at prayer or making a celebratory comment to a friend, nothing more.

Finally, anyone who's worked in the ME would have heard it five times a day, every day, from loudspeakers in the nearest minaret, so will be very well used to hearing it in a correct context.

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 09:28
It's a very narrow minded bunch of bigots that have got it into their thick heads that "God is great! is an expression that means they are about to be killed. In the vast majority of cases, hearing it just means you have overheard someone at prayer or making a celebratory comment to a friend, nothing more.

Giving the "bigots" the benefit of the doubt, it's more of a logic fail than anything else.

Granted, "Allahu Akbar" is often uttered by suicide bombers as they are about to detonate their devices.

Therefore, the argument goes, anyone who overhears those words said by anyone is likely to be in immediate mortal danger.

Even a 5-year-old could see through that faulty logic, but not, it would appear, some of the posters here.

treadigraph
5th Jan 2018, 10:31
He may have been phoning a well-known PPRuNer and been misheard.

Super VC-10
5th Jan 2018, 12:03
OK, plenty of examples about. Such as these.

Michigan airport knife attacker shouted 'Allahu Akbar', says FBI - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40360428)

Frenchman stabbed by couple shouting 'Allahu Akbar' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36682523)

Buckingham Palace suspect was brandishing 4ft sword, police say - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41055985)

Eyewitness describes explosion at Brussels train station - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-40349033/eyewitness-describes-explosion-at-brussels-train-station)

New York truck attack: What we know - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41829264)

Paris attack: Man held after car rams into soldiers - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40873801)

Any right-minded person that wants to say they agree with any of the above examples? Thought not.

ZFT
5th Jan 2018, 12:17
OK, plenty of examples about. Such as these.

Michigan airport knife attacker shouted 'Allahu Akbar', says FBI - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40360428)

Frenchman stabbed by couple shouting 'Allahu Akbar' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36682523)

Buckingham Palace suspect was brandishing 4ft sword, police say - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41055985)

Eyewitness describes explosion at Brussels train station - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-40349033/eyewitness-describes-explosion-at-brussels-train-station)

New York truck attack: What we know - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41829264)

Paris attack: Man held after car rams into soldiers - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40873801)

Any right-minded person that wants to say they agree with any of the above examples? Thought not.

I just wonder, how many posters say "praise the Lord"?

VP959
5th Jan 2018, 12:25
OK, plenty of examples about. Such as these.

Michigan airport knife attacker shouted 'Allahu Akbar', says FBI - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40360428)

Frenchman stabbed by couple shouting 'Allahu Akbar' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36682523)

Buckingham Palace suspect was brandishing 4ft sword, police say - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41055985)

Eyewitness describes explosion at Brussels train station - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-40349033/eyewitness-describes-explosion-at-brussels-train-station)

New York truck attack: What we know - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41829264)

Paris attack: Man held after car rams into soldiers - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40873801)

Any right-minded person that wants to say they agree with any of the above examples? Thought not.

That is an extremely tiny number of examples from the many tens of millions of times every day that the words "God is great" are uttered. I've worked with people that have said it at least five times a day, every day, often more often than that. The fact that a very tiny group of terrorists have decided to use that phrase before murdering people is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the action taken in this case.

The chap in question was apparently on the phone, was not shouting and used the phrase in conversation, could have been for any number of reasons; as already pointed out it's extremely common to say "God is great!" as a celebratory comment, for any number of reasons. The fact that it has been perverted by an extremely small minority with very twisted beliefs is absolutely no reason to penalise the many tens of millions of people who use this phrase many times every day, or to even suggest that they should stop doing so, or that by doing so they are doing anything wrong.

treadigraph
5th Jan 2018, 12:25
I just wonder, how many posters say "praise the Lord"?

I say "Jesus Christ" quite a lot in a manner unlikely to guarantee me salvation.

Nemrytter
5th Jan 2018, 12:26
OK, plenty of examples about. Such as these.
...
Any right-minded person that wants to say they agree with any of the above examples? Thought not.I'm not sure if you're terminally thick or just trying to wind people up - but you've clearly not read what people have been saying. You are the problem.

Super VC-10
5th Jan 2018, 12:31
The fact that it has been perverted by an extremely small minority with very twisted beliefs is absolutely no reason to penalise the many tens of millions of people who use this phrase many times every day, or to even suggest that they should stop doing so, or that by doing so they are doing anything wrong.

Maybe not, but it's easy to understand why people react in the way that they did in this case, given the many hundreds or previous examples, of which I posted just a few. Given the current threat level in the UK, I'd probably do the same in a similar situation.

VP959
5th Jan 2018, 13:27
Maybe not, but it's easy to understand why people react in the way that they did in this case, given the many hundreds or previous examples, of which I posted just a few. Given the current threat level in the UK, I'd probably do the same in a similar situation.

It's not at all easy to begin to understand why some bigoted idiot reacted this way. Anyone with half an ounce of sense would look, see he was on the phone, assume he was making a normal celebratory comment and at worst just check before unleashing a full security alert and the subsequent inconvenience and cost to all concerned.

It was something that could have been settled in 30 seconds with a bit of common sense.

How do people react in large airports in the ME when people roll out and align their prayer mats and start their daily prayers with exactly the same words? Is there a major security alert 5 times a day at every big ME airport because of this?

funfly
5th Jan 2018, 14:35
Bit of commin sense required here. saying “god is great” while kneeling down on a mat in a quiet place is obviously very different from saying it in a crowded railway carriage and it would be fair to react in an appropriate manner to each of these examples.

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 15:59
Bit of commin sense required here. saying “god is great” while kneeling down on a mat in a quiet place is obviously very different from saying it in a crowded railway carriage and it would be fair to react in an appropriate manner to each of these examples.

Would that "commin sense" extend to being able to tell the difference between someone screaming it at people they are about to murder and someone minding his own business having a quiet, private telephone conversation with his dad ?

old,not bold
5th Jan 2018, 16:48
Just to reinforce Dave Reid's attempt to restore reason; if you live and work in a Muslim country and deal all day every day with locals at every level (yes, 15 years) you will become accustomed to hearing the words "Allahu 'l Akbar" (my transliteration version) in almost every other sentence, and eventually start saying it yourself, as I do (just as I say "Insha' Allah" - "if God wills") out of habit. It is a part of the daily prayers, for sure, but also serves to punctuate sentences, or express mild surprise, rather as "Good Heavens", Oh My God, or "really", does to English speakers. Before a meal, or before getting into a car or plane, or before starting a speech, another expression is "B'ism Illah", meaning "In God's Name". It's just a habit.

For this reason, the passengers and crew who reacted as they seem to have done when a "Moroccan male" (was) overheard saying “Allahu Akbar” might have been better advised to check it out more carefully.

By the way, when did the word "male" replace "man" or "boy"? Why do the Police do it? Why do other people copy them?

There are lots of things that you can shout in a theatre to cause panic; try "Fire!". So what? In a probably vain attempt to return to the facts, the Moroccan man, as far as we know from the information provided, was overheard saying it, not shouting or screaming it, perhaps into a phone. I had a phone conversation yesterday with a minor sheikh in Abu Dhabi, and I now realise I must have said "Allahu 'lAkbar" at least 20 times during the chat, which was 50/50 English/Arabic about a series of slightly surprising events. If I were boarding an aircraft at the time maybe I should have been locked up. But in the interests of fairness anyone saying "Good God!" into a phone should join me in the slammer. After all, Christian religious terrorists have slaughtered many more people in the UK in recent decades in the name of their version of Christianity than have Muslim religious terrorists.

Incidentally, in the hope that it's helpful, can I say that my way, after years of trying different techniques, of determining if someone saying "Allahu l'Akbar" is a suicide bomber is to review the situation about 30 seconds after hearing it. If you can do that, you'll know that he or she isn't. Works every time. If only the people on that aircraft had known that, all this trouble would have been avoided.

Trossie
5th Jan 2018, 18:15
It's not at all easy to begin to understand why some bigoted idiot reacted this way.To me the 'bigoted idiot' is someone who dogmatically believes in a sky-fairy.

I would just shrug my shoulders at them demonstrating that in somewhere like, say, The Vatican. I would be far, far more concerned if their variant of sky-fairy adherence was demonstrably known to have been involved in killing people in my type of society due to their bigotry and started to make their sky-fairy utterances near me and in a vulnerable situation. Just the same as I would be told that I should know better if I muttered "rare juicy steaks" within a place where I should expect a high concentration of sensitive vegans, these sky-fairy followers should realise that they should pay attention to the sensitivities of potentially worried people in an advanced transport medium that is well beyond the understanding of the originator of their particular sky-fairy fairy-tales yet on multiple occasions has been targeted by their particular brand of sky-fairies.

Effluent Man
5th Jan 2018, 19:27
The apologists for the gentleman who uttered this phrase are asking the majority of us who have nothing to do with religion of any type to take the time and trouble to understand the particular circumstances in which this utterance has been made. It's quite clear now that it was merely something that he said to his dad in the course of a normal conversation. I have to say though that had it been me who heard it then I would have reported it to the cabin crew. As an Atheist I shouldn't be expected to learn the subtleties of every crackpot sky fairy follower in this crazy 21st century world. It's for them to learn what the things they say may be interpreted as.

Chronus
5th Jan 2018, 19:43
Given that these are the last two words normally heard by some unfortunate whose head is about to come off on a chopping block, I am not at all surprised at the adverse reaction of pax sitting in an airliner`s seats.

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 20:50
I am not at all surprised at the adverse reaction of pax sitting in an airliner's seats.

While ignorance, and arguably a lack of life experience and plain common sense, might (just) explain the passengers' paranoia, neither the crew nor the authorities can use that excuse for their overreaction.

Effluent Man
5th Jan 2018, 20:55
Given the events of the last few years I hardly think that such a reaction can be classed as paranoia. Why should secular people be expected to study and understand the context in which these comments of all manner of loons are made? It's time all this religious mumbo jumbo was consigned to the dustbin of history.

ChrisVJ
5th Jan 2018, 21:16
“. . . .should have made further enquiries.”
“Erm, excuse me. Did you just say Alluh Akbar? Does that mean you are going to blow up the aircraft?”
“Yes, I have put bomb in luggage to blow up when we reach ten thousand feet.”

Give us a break! How could you possibly believe his reply either way?

And while we’re at it. If you are passing through security you would hardly expect them to wave you through if they overheard you using the word “Bomb” while on the phone to your father.
“Did you say bomb, sir?
“Oh, I was just referring to the East Coast cyclone bomb.”
“Yes, yes. Just come this way please sir. Is that your luggage? No, don’t touch it, we’ll bring it for you after the bomb squad has torn it apart.”

I must have used the word "bomb" thousands of times in my life but I don’t us it in airports, not in airport bars or restaurants or boarding lounges. If anyone used either of these phrases in a plane I wouldn’t want to go flying in it until I the situation had been most comprehensively checked.

DaveReidUK
5th Jan 2018, 22:03
And while we’re at it. If you are passing through security you would hardly expect them to wave you through if they overheard you using the word “Bomb” while on the phone to your father.

Sorry, but that's a ridiculous analogy.

Yes, you would rightly be pulled up by security if you were daft enough to use the b- word within their earshot. It's a word that has very few contexts other than in relation to a device intended to kill and maim people.

But as a number of posters familiar with the Moslem and Arabic world have patiently pointed out to no avail, the phrase in question has dozens, if not hundreds, of contexts in everyday life across large parts of the world.

If you're going to excuse the passengers' reaction on the grounds that they would be ignorant of that fact, then it's hypocritical to condemn the utterer for not being aware that his overheard words could be interpreted in a context that had probably never occurred to him.

Effluent Man
5th Jan 2018, 22:13
What you are telling us then is that the followers of a religion that is currently filling the world with this little outburst whenever they set off a bomb at a children's concert or mow down revellers on our city streets are blissfully unaware of the connection?

G-CPTN
5th Jan 2018, 22:28
A colleague worked in the Experimental Department of a UK vehicle manufacturer.
He had to make a business trip to Northern Ireland.
When he drove off the ferry in Ireland (this was during the 'Troubles'), his vehicle was subject to the (then) scrutiny for hidden devices (mirrors underneath and the bonnet raised to inspect the engine compartment).
This vehicle was fitted with a non-standard 'performance' engine of much larger physical size than the standard engine - a point recognised and remarked on by the 'inspector'.
"This looks impressive - I bet it goes well"
"Yes", replied my colleague - "it goes like a bo-bo-ba - it's very fast!"

fitliker
5th Jan 2018, 22:40
Beer is proof that Gods loves us ,and wants us to be Happy :)

jolihokistix
6th Jan 2018, 00:50
nltimes, quote: "evacuated shortly before takeoff after passengers heard a man say 'suspicious slogans' on board..." Sounds like a lack of manners, common sense and sensitivity by this passenger in a 'delicate' zone.


Many of these incidents seem to occur in cultural crossover zones, where there is a little truth on every side.


It reminds me of the old proverb advising you neither to adjust your hat in a pear orchard, nor retie your shoelaces in a melon patch.
瓜田に履を納れず、李下に冠を正さず

Hydromet
6th Jan 2018, 03:13
And while we’re at it. If you are passing through security you would hardly expect them to wave you through if they overheard you using the word “Bomb” while on the phone to your father.
“Did you say bomb, sir?
“Oh, I was just referring to the East Coast cyclone bomb.”
“Yes, yes. Just come this way please sir. Is that your luggage? No, don’t touch it, we’ll bring it for you after the bomb squad has torn it apart.”

I was at a conference where it was announced that the Bureau of Meteorology would be spending a large amount of money on some projects, and it was recognised that most of us attending would be beneficiaries. At the close of the conference, we were warned that we shouldn't discuss the BoM money on our flights home.

DaveReidUK
6th Jan 2018, 07:13
a religion that is currently filling the world with this little outburst whenever they set off a bomb at a children's concert or mow down revellers on our city streets

Wow!

Just when I thought this thread couldn't possibly get more bigoted ...

Trossie
6th Jan 2018, 08:20
Wow!

Just when I thought this thread couldn't possibly get more bigoted ...

It's fundamentally about religion. Religion is the ultimate bigotry.

Stop trying to make excuses for sky-fairy followers. Especially the cult of shy-fairy followers that are using their cult to kill more people in the world than any other cult of sky-fairy followers is doing.

Chesty Morgan
6th Jan 2018, 08:35
Would that "commin sense" extend to being able to tell the difference between someone screaming it at people they are about to murder and someone minding his own business having a quiet, private telephone conversation with his dad ?

What about the person who quietly mutters it just before they murder a bunch of other people?

VP959
6th Jan 2018, 08:49
What about the person who quietly mutters it just before they murder a bunch of other people?

If we hear anyone mutter the words "Britain first" should we call a full scale terrorist alert, then?

(for those that are unaware, these were the words uttered by Thomas Mair as he killed MP Jo Cox).

DaveReidUK
6th Jan 2018, 08:58
Stop trying to make excuses for sky-fairy followers. Especially the cult of shy-fairy followers that are using their cult to kill more people in the world than any other cult of sky-fairy followers is doing.

I have no idea what either a "sky-fairy" or a "shy-fairy" is, and I challenge you to quote any of my posts where I've been an apologist for terrorists.

But now that I've learned that Islam is apparently synonymous with terrorism, I expect someone will be along shortly to tell us that the IRA was just the outreach branch of the Roman Catholic church.

Trossie
6th Jan 2018, 09:06
"Britain first" was uttered before one despicable murder and I feel no indiscriminate threat to myself from that quarter. The sky-fairy mumbo-jumbo that this Thread revolves about has been uttered before thousands and thousands of despicable murders around the world and actual events means that I feel myself at risk from these indiscriminate threats. I know which set of bigots bent on despicable murders would worry me most, simply following precedent.

(Why do so many people try to make so many excuses for brain-washed sky-fairy followers?)

Chesty Morgan
6th Jan 2018, 09:11
I have no idea what either a "sky-fairy" or a "shy-fairy" is, and I challenge you to quote any of my posts where I've been an apologist for terrorists.

But now that I've learned that Islam is apparently synonymous with terrorism, I expect someone will be along shortly to tell us that the IRA was just the outreach branch of the Roman Catholic church.

Who said Islam is synonymous with terrorism?!

KelvinD
6th Jan 2018, 09:17
For goodness sake, get a grip! If you want to believe your own theory re "thousands and thousands of despicable murders", you need to look a little deeper.
Take the Yanks, for example. Led by rabid Christians, they have taken umpteen opportunities to cause the deaths of many more than your "thousand and thousands". (Start with the Gulf of Tonkin and work forward).
Oh! Hang on a minute; let's go back to the Crusades....

Effluent Man
6th Jan 2018, 09:18
In short...it's religion.

DaveReidUK
6th Jan 2018, 09:22
Who said Islam is synonymous with terrorism?!

Well he did, for a start:

a religion that is currently filling the world with this little outburst whenever they set off a bomb at a children's concert or mow down revellers on our city streets

Effluent Man
6th Jan 2018, 09:26
If the cap fits. Although of course it doesn't actually say what you claim it does, but to split hairs would be churlish.

ZFT
6th Jan 2018, 09:47
Does anyone actually travel and visit other cultures before forming these bigoted views or are they formed from media hype?

I have met idiots of all religious persuasions over the years but to date not one has threatened me to the extent that would make me as paranoid as many on this thread!

Yes, individuals have committed appalling acts but Las Vegas or a crazed A320 FO were equally appalling and there were no religious connections there!

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Jan 2018, 10:02
I have met idiots of all religious persuasions over the years but to date not one has threatened me to the extent that would make me as paranoid as many on this thread!
I've had the occasional one threaten to pray for me, which is mildly sick-making but not actually dangerous.

Trossie
6th Jan 2018, 10:06
I have no idea what either a "sky-fairy" or a "shy-fairy" is, and I challenge you to quote any of my posts where I've been an apologist for terrorists.

But now that I've learned that Islam is apparently synonymous with terrorism, I expect someone will be along shortly to tell us that the IRA was just the outreach branch of the Roman Catholic church.

(Apologies, the 'shy-' was a typo!)

If IRA terrorists had shouted 'Hail Mary' or some equivalent sky-fairy mumbo-jumbo before killing people then I definitely would have linked the Roman Catholic Church with terrorism. (As it is I felt that the Catholic Church sky-fairy followers were guilty of not distancing themselves far enough from that terrorism.)

Some people see 'dogs' as synonymous with 'bites' due to their own experiences or others' reported experiences. That does not mean that all dogs are vicious, but it is quite understandable that many would have serious concerns about them. When a particular sky-fairy cult has caused enough indiscriminate murder then it is quite reasonable and understandable that a very large chunk of the population should view all followers of that sky-fairy cult with the same suspicion that many view dogs. The owners of good dogs should not try to make excuses for dogs, but should do everything they can to make those wary about dogs a lot happier. Growling, that is often known to go along with an attack, in public is not a good sign; muttering sky-fairy mumbo-jumbo, that has also been known to go along with an attack, in public is also not a good sign. Just as the ordinary public should not have to put up with the worry of growling dogs in public, they should not have to put up with the worry of alien sky-fairy mumbo-jumbo being muttered/uttered in public.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Jan 2018, 10:23
(As it is I felt that the Catholic Church sky-fairy followers were guilty of not distancing themselves far enough from that terrorism.)
I'm sure I remember the comments of a Catholic priest after an arms dump was found under his church hall floor: something along the lines of "I didn't know about this honest guv" and "looks like they've been very naughty boys".

Chesty Morgan
6th Jan 2018, 11:38
Well he did, for a start:

Only in your rather selective quote.

DaveReidUK
6th Jan 2018, 12:36
Only in your rather selective quote.

Hmmm.

As the OP himself acknowledges:

to split hairs would be churlish.

Super VC-10
6th Jan 2018, 12:40
Given the events of the last few years I hardly think that such a reaction can be classed as paranoia. Why should secular people be expected to study and understand the context in which these comments of all manner of loons are made? It's time all this religious mumbo jumbo was consigned to the dustbin of history.

Yup, it there's one thing that needs banning, it's religion, in all its forms.

Effluent Man
6th Jan 2018, 17:26
Hmmm.

As the OP himself acknowledges:

Yes, although you did delete "although of course it doesn't actually say what you said it did". More selectivity?

old,not bold
6th Jan 2018, 18:41
It happens that the Kingsmill massacre (N. Ireland 1976) is back in the headlines, as a result of a Sinn Fein MP's outrageous and stupid actions celebrating the anniversary on 5th January, all in the name of the Roman Catholic religion, of course.

It occurs to me to wonder what the leader of the Catholic hit squad said to his brave team of 11 murderers, once they had separated the lone Catholic from the group of workmen in a bus and lined up the rest ready to be slaughtered. Was it "In the name of the Pope, we are going to kill you all for not being Catholic"? Or was it just "Go on then, lads, shoot the fecking Prods, enjoy yourselves."?

It would not have been "Allahu Akbar", but the sentiment would have been the same.

DaveReidUK
6th Jan 2018, 19:06
Only in your rather selective quote.

More selectivity?

Like most posters, I only quote that which is sufficient to capture the essence of any post that I'm responding to.

Effluent Man, you have already acknowledged ("if the cap fits") that your sentiments expressed in your original post were equivalent to equating Islam to terrorism (albeit that seems to have gone above Chesty's head).

If you're now backtracking on that, then fine - I'd be happy for you to tell me how my interpretation of your words differs from what you meant. Though you did say that would be splitting hairs ...

Effluent Man
6th Jan 2018, 19:27
Well more a matter of equating terrorism with Islam rather than the reverse. As it seems that we are in a time when terrorist attacks only seem to be perpetrated by one arm r other of Islam. Britain First are just a loose group of nutters who have found a more or less common cause. The IRA I don't accept are of the same stripe. Firstly they had a set of "War Aims", arguably legitimate grievances that identified part of the community of Ireland as second class citizens to be denied employment and social advancement. This can be demonstrated as they have now been addressed and consequently peace has broken out.

Try having a settlement with ISIS, or even bringing Sunni and Shi' ite together to agree a common solution. It is a backward religion ruled over by men whose thinking is rooted in an age when us lot were busily melting down iron in the belief that we could produce gold.

old,not bold
7th Jan 2018, 09:09
The IRA I don't accept are of the same stripe. Firstly they had a set of "War Aims", arguably legitimate grievances Utter bollocks. They were/are terrorists, no more and no less, using terror tactics to achieve their aims. In many ways they led the way for Da'esh. They gloried in finding ways to kill a person slowly and painfully, for example, just like Da'esh. Ever wondered what is was like to have an electric drill bit going slowly into your head until you died? That was a favourite, reserved for captured soldiers.

I know it's all over, peace broken out etc. Thank God. But rewriting history to whitewash that bunch of sadistic killers does no good at all.

And yes, I do know what it was like to be a Catholic in Northern Ireland before the terrorism started. The way they were treated by the Unionist majority was a disgrace, to which the British Government turned a blind eye. I do not carry a torch for the Protestants/Unionists either, they can be among the most unpleasant people on this planet. That doesn't change my view of the PIRA and its offshoots.

KelvinD
7th Jan 2018, 09:54
It is a backward religion ruled over by men whose thinking is rooted in an age when us lot were busily melting down iron in the belief that we could produce gold.
Well, don't let's forget the other well known lot who try to convince us that the universe (never mind the earth!) is approx 6,000 years old!

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2018, 10:06
I have a friend, a retired teacher, employed by a private fee paying school where the head was a Creationist. In my opinion it should be illegal to teach children such tripe.

Gertrude the Wombat
7th Jan 2018, 10:09
The IRA I don't accept are of the same stripe. Firstly they had a set of "War Aims", arguably legitimate grievances that identified part of the community of Ireland as second class citizens to be ...
"... murdered at will for the crime of being born to parents of the wrong sect".

There, fixed that for you.

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2018, 10:11
Utter bollocks.

And yes, I do know what it was like to be a Catholic in Northern Ireland before the terrorism started. The way they were treated by the Unionist majority was a disgrace, to which the British Government turned a blind eye. I do not carry a torch for the Protestants/Unionists either, they can be among the most unpleasant people on this planet. That doesn't change my view of the PIRA and its offshoots.

Your one statement really contradicts the other. It was the way they treated the Nationalist minority that spawned all the badness. And let us not forget that it was on both sides, the British Army was not entirely innocent as shown by Bloody Sunday.

Chronus
7th Jan 2018, 18:56
Unfortunately the Islamic praise of God`s Greatness has in the public subconscious become synonimous with a war cry, similar to Banzai.

Here are a few reasons, why.
- Allahu Akbar is what the terrorists said before flying jetliners into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania.
- Allahu Akbar is what traitor Nidal Hasan said before American soldiers were slaughtered at Fort Hood.
- Allahu Akbar is what the terrorists’ mother said after the Boston Marathon bombings.
- Allahu Akbar is what was spray-painted on the side of the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi.
- Allahu Akbar is what two attackers in London shouted as they used a machete to butcher a man on a public street.

Takan Inchovit
7th Jan 2018, 19:01
Shouting 'Allahu Akbar' also comes in handy when you kick the bed corner in the middle of the night!

419
7th Jan 2018, 21:02
Unfortunately the Islamic praise of God`s Greatness has in the public subconscious become synonimous with a war cry, similar to Banzai.

Plus the fact that for many people, flying is something that makes them extremely nervous or anxious then once you've added in the way that certain newspapers and media stations on the television try to make it seem that every Muslim in the west is out to kill us, it's not really that difficult to understand how hearing someone say "Allahu Akbar" on board an aircraft could cause problems.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that I agree with what happened. just that I can understand why it happened.

Donkey497
7th Jan 2018, 21:37
The Koolade is flowing well on both sides, I see - Never a good sign.

Perhaps everyone should have a period of quiet reflection, otherwise I think there may be justification for the Mods to get seriously involved and there may be a number of people being given "some time away from this forum", to quote another thread, as a result.

Play nice folks. Let's not precipitate a lockout.

Effluent Man
7th Jan 2018, 22:13
I'm surprised you see it that way. Apart from a couple of bigotry accusations that go with the territory it's all been quite good natured.

Trossie
9th Jan 2018, 16:46
I have reflected quietly.

I feel that I have no need or desire to understand other peoples' alien ways. If I was going to take myself to into their culture I can see that it might be an idea to know something about it, but not if I am staying in my own happy part of the world. If they take themselves to 'my' culture then they are the ones who should be getting to know about my concerns.

If someone utters/mutters something that is to me an alien 'way' but has been known to have been uttered/muttered by a very, very high percentage of those who wish to do my society and me harm, then I am entitled to be concerned. I do not need to make allowances for them, they need to make allowances for me.

I see no 'bigotry' in that. To me the bigot would be the one that denies me my concerns for some dogmatic reason.

That is my quiet reflection.

flash8
9th Jan 2018, 16:57
That is my quiet reflection.

Indeed, and I for one do not wish to be tolerant of those who cannot be tolerant of others. Life is too short to spread around utter misery that some do.

DaveReidUK
9th Jan 2018, 17:01
If someone utters/mutters something that is to me an alien 'way' but has been known to have been uttered/muttered by a very, very high percentage of those who wish to do my society and me harm, then I am entitled to be concerned. I do not need to make allowances for them, they need to make allowances for me.

Of course there are two ways to look at it, both equally valid:

a) an overwhelming proportion of those who wish to do you harm will utter that phrase

b) an infinitesimal proportion of those who utter that phrase will wish to do you harm

flash8
9th Jan 2018, 17:03
Of course there are two ways to look at it, both equally valid:

a) an overwhelming proportion of those who wish to do you harm will utter that phrase

b) an infinitesimal proportion of those who utter that phrase will wish to do you harm

Or a third way, better be safe than sorry, because very few if any who utter that phrase share my values, and indeed the vast majority that do utter it abhor them.

Trossie
9th Jan 2018, 17:09
Of course there are two ways to look at it, both equally valid:

a) an overwhelming proportion of those who wish to do you harm will utter that phrase

b) an infinitesimal proportion of those who utter that phrase will wish to do you harm
Correct.

And as it is all alien to me, then to me it is a requirement for b) to convince me that she/he is not a).

Until that has been done, then to me they are all a).

Not 'bigoted', just cautious. The same as the non dog-lover being cautious about a growl.

ExXB
9th Jan 2018, 19:10
... and then there is the common sense, or lack of it, approach. Is it likely that a black-hat, intending to do harm, would utter such a phrase? Particularly as that alleged black-hat had been checked by the airport's security services. Particularly as that alleged black-hat had submitted APIS data to the airline and undoubtably had been checked by the various secret services with access to said data.

While some will argue "an abundance of caution" I see it as overkill (pardon the expression).

Chronus
9th Jan 2018, 19:34
It is a sad fact that since 9/11 what was once unfamiliar words to many Westerners, have since become associated with violence and acts of terrorism, shouted by robed men with long straggly beards who proclaim their intentions to dominate the West. They shout the two words as a proclamation to non-muslims, who they refer to as unbelievers, that Allah is greater than Western imperialist powers and that Islam will subdue them one day.
For those who see themselves as fighters and martyrs in such, their cause it has become a battle cry to carry into the field and strike fear and terror to their enemies.
Why should it be considered bigotry if we are disturbed, concerned and indeed become distressed at hearing these words, uttered in the confines of the cabin of an airliner. Especially, given the very origin of the association which was instilled in our minds.
But there is another view of the matter. That is, had it been the intention of terrorist to use this as a slogan attached to the banner under which they unite,they would seem to be on the road to success. Unless we also unite and turn a deaf ear to their shouts of "boo".

KelvinD
9th Jan 2018, 22:10
Those two words are actually three. Literally translated as "God he great".

meadowrun
10th Jan 2018, 00:49
What laws come into play when some idiot yells "FIRE", in a crowded theatre?
What laws would come into play if it was said onboard a full aircraft?


Any similarities to some moron yelling out the now infamous Islamic War Cry (which is what that has become, at raised volume) on an aircraft or in the terminal?

reefrat
10th Jan 2018, 02:25
Just to reinforce Dave Reid's attempt to restore reason; if you live and work in a Muslim country and deal all day every day with locals at every level (yes, 15 years) you will become accustomed to hearing the words "Allahu 'l Akbar" (my transliteration version) in almost every other sentence, and eventually start saying it yourself, as I do (just as I say "Insha' Allah" - "if God wills") out of habit. It is a part of the daily prayers, for sure, but also serves to punctuate sentences, or express mild surprise, rather as "Good Heavens", Oh My God, or "really", does to English speakers. Before a meal, or before getting into a car or plane, or before starting a speech, another expression is "B'ism Illah", meaning "In God's Name". It's just a habit.

For this reason, the passengers and crew who reacted as they seem to have done when a "Moroccan male" (was) overheard saying “Allahu Akbar” might have been better advised to check it out more carefully.

By the way, when did the word "male" replace "man" or "boy"? Why do the Police do it? Why do other people copy them?

There are lots of things that you can shout in a theatre to cause panic; try "Fire!". So what? In a probably vain attempt to return to the facts, the Moroccan man, as far as we know from the information provided, was overheard saying it, not shouting or screaming it, perhaps into a phone. I had a phone conversation yesterday with a minor sheikh in Abu Dhabi, and I now realise I must have said "Allahu 'lAkbar" at least 20 times during the chat, which was 50/50 English/Arabic about a series of slightly surprising events. If I were boarding an aircraft at the time maybe I should have been locked up. But in the interests of fairness anyone saying "Good God!" into a phone should join me in the slammer. After all, Christian religious terrorists have slaughtered many more people in the UK in recent decades in the name of their version of Christianity than have Muslim religious terrorists.

Incidentally, in the hope that it's helpful, can I say that my way, after years of trying different techniques, of determining if someone saying "Allahu l'Akbar" is a suicide bomber is to review the situation about 30 seconds after hearing it. If you can do that, you'll know that he or she isn't. Works every time. If only the people on that aircraft had known that, all this trouble would have been avoided.

Well said and all true. Lived and worked on the Persian/Arabian gulf for 40 years, Bis Millah and Allah Akbar are used in every day conversation, it's like God bless , God help me, Good God and so on; and everybody in the gulf says Insh Allah, Really means Maybe,, like when asking when the parts are arriving rather than invoking God's will. Plenty of windy bigots on this site. God rot their little cotton socks.:cool:

meadowrun
10th Jan 2018, 02:55
Yes all well and good. Appropriate in the Islamic world.
Above normal conversational volumes in the West, inappropriate, given associated history of the phrase. And every Muslim in the West should know that plainly.


You're out on the crowded high street doing some shopping and someone yells out the phrase somewhere behind you............I'll bet the hackles on the back of your neck rise instantly...or perhaps something more dramatic happens.

ExXB
10th Jan 2018, 05:12
Yes but that wasn’t what happened. Despite the headline the passenger did not scream, he was talking on his phone. Perhaps shouting, as people do on their phones, and was overheard by another passenger.

If he had screamed, that would be a different matter.

DaveReidUK
10th Jan 2018, 06:46
Yes but that wasn’t what happened. Despite the headline the passenger did not scream, he was talking on his phone. Perhaps shouting, as people do on their phones, and was overheard by another passenger.

If he had screamed, that would be a different matter.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

It's getting hard to move in this thread in amongst all the straw men and whataboutery.

jolihokistix
10th Jan 2018, 07:46
Time to remove 'scream' from the thread title?

Trossie
10th Jan 2018, 10:33
For all those who have lived in the Middle East and find these utterances to be normal: I have not and do not. To me normal is something entirely different.

To the idea that this was 'airside' hence through security checks so 'what is the problem': Have no terrorist incidents ever occurred once through security checks?

About the 'screaming' or 'muttering': to a non dog-lover a loud bark and a quiet growl are both concerning. A quiet growl would probably be more concerning.

Now I don't expect to see any bigoted replies telling me that I am 'wrong'. The above comments are just me going about my normal life as safely as I can without any 'ways' that are alien to my normal coming and upsetting things. If I perceive something that is totally alien to me to be a threat then it is not up to me to re-assure myself, it is up to whatever is alien to me to re-assure me. Especially if that that is alien has been linked in very high-profile ways with those who have intended to do harm to the peaceful society that I live in. These are the facts that I live with. Don't let bigotry get in the way of facts.

DaveReidUK
10th Jan 2018, 10:57
If I perceive something that is totally alien to me to be a threat then it is not up to me to re-assure myself, it is up to whatever is alien to me to re-assure me.

Why does an innocent third party who intends you no harm have an obligation to reassure you of that fact ?

Lonewolf_50
10th Jan 2018, 12:13
and everybody in the gulf says Insh Allah, Really means Maybe,, like when asking when the parts are arriving rather than invoking God's will. In Italy, that same contextual phrase is domani while in Mexico it's mañana ... they don't blame God (nor Allah) for their not wanting to be bothered to help you, or get the work done, or deliver the parts ...

ExXB
10th Jan 2018, 12:20
And if someone was shouting on his phone in Farsi, or Turkish, or Kurdish, or Indonesian, or Pakistani, or Hindi, or Urdu, or Bengali, or Assamese, or Malayalam, or Punjabi, or Tamil,or Telugu, or Bhasa Malay, or Russian, or Bosnian,or Somalian ....

How would you even know if they were shouting God is Great? Would you be threatened if someone shouted God is great in English? All of these languages, and more, are the mother tongues of Muslims.

Ancient Mariner
10th Jan 2018, 12:28
We'll be flying around in Indonesia in February. Where do I report these Allah mutterings? I don't want to be seen as one not paying attention.
Per

VP959
10th Jan 2018, 12:33
Why does an innocent third party who intends you no harm have an obligation to reassure you of that fact ?

That's the major problem - people are just so bigoted and unwilling to accept any culture other than their own that they will not accept the reality of life in a different country or culture.

Every culture has a range of common terms that are not used literally any more. In Arabic it's very common to hear phrases like insha'Allah (literally "If God wills it) as meaning anything from "yes, I'll do that sooner or later", to "you and I know this will never get done".

In the UK abbreviated phrases similarly have a changed meaning. No one expects someone making the exclamation "Blimey!" to have both their eyes plucked out, yet that's literally what it means, "blind me". There are cruder phrases used here that similarly don't have their original meaning any more, yet we have all got used them. I bet visitors here may well struggle with some of them, though!

So, if you are going to put yourself in an environment where you are surrounded by a range of different cultures, it really is not their problem if you cannot be bothered to understand the common usage of their language.

As already mentioned, amongst Muslims the phrase Allāhu akbar is very commonly used for a range of meanings, not just in prayer, so if you're on an aeroplane in a foreign country, with a multi-cultural passenger manifest, then you are going to be exposed to a wide range of expressions that you may not understand the normal meaning of.

It's not acceptable to put your individual and very biased interpretation on words spoken in innocence by someone who uses those words many times every day.

Effluent Man
10th Jan 2018, 13:15
That's the major problem - people are just so bigoted and unwilling to accept any culture other than their own that they will not accept the reality of life in a different country or culture.



In my case, and let's not forget that I was the original target of the bigotry allegation, I totally reject that. In my childhood my best friend was from a Jewish family who used to disappear for all the religious festivals. They were a great family where I was always welcome despite not being from that culture. I have had business dealings with Hindus and Sikhs. One of the former was a single man ( I suspect a non out Gay) who we were sufficiently friendly to go out with to restaurants and invite him to our house. I don't see these are the actions of a bigot.

ZFT
10th Jan 2018, 13:25
In my case, and let's not forget that I was the original target of the bigotry allegation, I totally reject that. In my childhood my best friend was from a Jewish family who used to disappear for all the religious festivals. They were a great family where I was always welcome despite not being from that culture. I have had business dealings with Hindus and Sikhs. One of the former was a single man ( I suspect a non out Gay) who we were sufficiently friendly to go out with to restaurants and invite him to our house. I don't see these are the actions of a bigot.

Wow. How generous of you to invite a single man!

Effluent Man
10th Jan 2018, 13:51
And your point is? I would imagine the majority of Muslims would shun him due to his sexuality.

Trossie
10th Jan 2018, 13:55
Why does an innocent third party who intends you no harm have an obligation to reassure you of that fact ?Let me try again:

If I perceive something that is totally alien to me to be a threat then it is not up to me to re-assure myself, it is up to whatever is alien to me to re-assure me. Especially if that that is alien has been linked in very high-profile ways with those who have intended to do harm to the peaceful society that I live in.

Why should the owner of an innocent dog that is growling at something need to re-assure a peaceful non dog-lover that the growl is not intended as a threat to him? Because the non dog-lover is perfectly entitled to live without a fear of dogs and it is up to the dog owner to re-assure him that something that is not normal to the non dog-lover is not a threat. If something is not normal to me then it is up to the person introducing that non-normal situation to re-assure me that it is not a threat, especially when, as with dog growls and religious utterances, those have been known to be related to actual harmful threats. If people want to utter those things in their own societies elsewhere that is up to them. As I have said, I have not and I have no desire to live in those societies and I see no need to 'fit in' with their strange ways.

Regarding 'blimey', that is totally irrelevant to this discussion. However, if there had been several high profile cases where people had been blinded in conjunction with an utterance of 'blimey', then it would become very, very relevant.

To me it is only the bigot that would see that I must fit in with someone else's alien ways.

Effluent Man
10th Jan 2018, 14:11
Ideally I would make Islam an illegal organisation. And just not to be a bigot I would then ban all the rest of the sky fairy fantasists. We have had centuries of atheists being picked upon by the adherents of these crazy cults, time we turned the tables. Let's hear it for Atheist Fundamentalism. We promise not to growl at , or bite, anyone.

VP959
10th Jan 2018, 14:19
To me it is only the bigot that would see that I must fit in with someone else's alien ways.

Depends entirely where you are and the circumstances. In this case, it was a flight from Seville to the Netherlands (so it's pretty inevitable that there would be a multicultural mix of passengers, including Muslims).

No one shouted anything, no one gesticulated or spoke these words loudly, a man was simply talking to someone on his phone and these words were overheard by an ignorant passenger who then over-emphasised what was said when reporting it to the crew, who then massively over-reacted to an everyday turn of phrase, one that many of the people of Seville would be very familiar with, as it's a multicultural city with a very strong Islamic history.

St Ambrose summed it up well around 1600 years ago: si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sīcut ibī

DaveReidUK
10th Jan 2018, 14:33
Why should the owner of an innocent dog that is growling at something need to re-assure a peaceful non dog-lover that the growl is not intended as a threat to him?

Sorry, more whataboutery. The two situations aren't remotely comparable.

Trossie
10th Jan 2018, 14:53
... an everyday turn of phrase, one that many of the people of Seville would be very familiar with ...It was a Dutch aeroplane and very likely a Dutch crew. It is up to them to decide how safe or otherwise they feel. They should expect their norms on their aeroplane.

(As a comparison, BA and Virgin fly to Johannesburg. The people of Johannesburg would be very familiar with 'ululating'. There is no reason for the crew on those flights to accept ululating on their flights and firm action by the crew to stop it should not be criticised because 'that is the way that some people do things'. If there are crew and passengers that are uncomfortable with it, that is enough to say that it is unacceptable.)

... city with a very strong Islamic history.Hmmm. Islamic invasion and conquest? Maybe more of a link to this topic than you'd like?

si fueris Rōmae, Rōmānō vīvitō mōre; si fueris alibī, vīvitō sīcut ibī
Assentior. Ik ben met eens. When on a Dutch aeroplane, act in a way that is acceptable to the Dutch.


The two situations aren't remotely comparable.So you have the right to tell the nervous passenger and the nervous non dog-lover that you understand their situations better than they do?

Sallyann1234
10th Jan 2018, 15:14
Ideally I would make Islam an illegal organisation. And just not to be a bigot I would then ban all the rest of the sky fairy fantasists.
I've never met anyone from any religion who believed in a fairy, or in any other creature in the sky for that matter. Or were you just trying to be offensive?

DaveReidUK
10th Jan 2018, 15:23
So you have the right to tell the nervous passenger and the nervous non dog-lover that you understand their situations better than they do?

Straw man, this time.