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paperHanger
2nd Jan 2018, 17:53
I'm hearing that a pax on a delayed Ryan Air flight got bored of waiting for take off, popped the overwing emergency hatch and tried to depart via the trailing edge ...

Video emerging on social media ..

https://www.facebook.com/jetlinemarvel/videos/vb.1499839346947780/1932832276981816/?type=2&theater&comment_id=1932865226978521&notif_t=video_comment&notif_id=1514918918737126

DaveReidUK
2nd Jan 2018, 18:07
No, the incident wasn't while waiting for takeoff, but after arrival (at Malaga) when passengers were kept on the aircraft for 30 minutes without any explanation from the crew.

There's a moral in there somewhere.

caaardiff
2nd Jan 2018, 18:14
The moral is, there's a reason for the delay to arrival. Sit and wait.

highflyer40
2nd Jan 2018, 18:18
30 minutes isn’t that long, but if it got to two hours or more without a very good excuse I have often thought I would do the same.

There can be no excuse for keeping someone onboard for hours either before or after the flight.

Hotel Tango
2nd Jan 2018, 18:21
The moral is, there's a reason for the delay to arrival. Sit and wait.

Ah yes of course, until it affects you that is!

I'm sure that most would conclude there is a "reason", however, it is not unreasonable to expect some sort of explanation after 5 minutes, let alone 30!

zed3
2nd Jan 2018, 18:22
I would think, from this, that the moral is ... communication. However I do not agree that the idiot who did this was right. A sign of the times methinks. Idiots who do what they want. Large fine and a flying ban is the solution... harrumph.

DaveReidUK
2nd Jan 2018, 18:22
The moral is, there's a reason for the delay to arrival. Sit and wait.

There's a reason for every delay.

There's rarely, if ever, a reason to keep passengers in the dark about the reason.

DaveReidUK
2nd Jan 2018, 18:34
However I do not agree that the idiot who did this was right.

Without knowing more about the circumstances (apart from the bit about the pax being kept uninformed) it's hard to say what would be a reasonable response.

Even at this time of year, Malaga is typically sunny and 20C+. For all we know, the aircraft could have been stationary for those 30 minutes with the engines shut down, doors closed and no air con.

If I'd been in that situation and sitting by an emergency exit, I'd have been tempted to open it, though not daft enough to attempt to climb out. :O

Hopefully RYR will have learnt from this event.

highflyer40
2nd Jan 2018, 18:36
Just think back to the days when passengers in the US were kept onboard for 5/6 hours waiting.. Didn't congress make regulations to end that practise?

After 1-2 hours there can be no “valid” reason!

TheFiddler
2nd Jan 2018, 18:40
...at our place we try an update pax every 10 mins, even if the update is "there is no update, but we're trying and we'll keep you informed..."

paperHanger
2nd Jan 2018, 18:45
I suspect he will find himself on the wrong end of an expensive bill for delays etc.

zed3
2nd Jan 2018, 18:52
paperHanger... hopefully.

edi_local
2nd Jan 2018, 19:09
Just think back to the days when passengers in the US were kept onboard for 5/6 hours waiting.. Didn't congress make regulations to end that practise?

After 1-2 hours there can be no “valid” reason!

I would imagine that anything that kept people on a plane for that long is perfectly valid. Do you think the airlines want to keep people on board for that long? :confused:

They didn't outlaw keeping people on planes, they merely stated the compensation for doing so, outlawing something which cannot be avoided sometimes would be ridiculous.

If someone was shooting up the place inside the terminal then I'd pretty damn sure want to be on the plane. If weather conditions deteriorated after landing to the point where nothing could push back from occupied gates, all suitable gates were being used and winds exceed the limits for ground service equipment to be used (as happened to me on arrival into NRT about 8 weeks ago) then I'd be quite happy remaining on the plane too. I was just over an hour after landing until we got on stand due to the backlog.

RAT 5
2nd Jan 2018, 19:14
There's a reason for every delay.
There's rarely, if ever, a reason to keep passengers in the dark about the reason.

Biggest cause of Pax rage is lack of communication. They are the fare paying customers, yet are too often treated like school children with a 'sit down and keep quite' attitude. It is a lack of respect, plain & simple.

Last night 28/12/17 0100 Easyjet cancelled the out bound Glasgow flight. The pax had been kept waiting 5 hours to find this out. Who informed the somewhat grumpy pax, the Captain of the inbound got out the cockpit walked up the jet bridge and personally explained over the tannoy exactly why the cancellation had happened (out of hours) he then stated he would remain at the desk to answer any questions. Well done that man.
P.S. one female pax had collapsed in the crowd, first aid administered not by STN but the crew on the arriving aircraft who should of been off home.
Well done.

Guy deserved a round of applause and a company 'Well done'. In the former case there was wrong on both sides and both parties need re-educating in how to perform their respective roles. What I've noticed in airline training is a lack of basic PR training and communication with passengers. There is lots of CRM training amongst the crew, but not so much between crew & pax; there is lots of anger management and dealing with conflict in the cabin. That is reactive not proactive. Which is better? It is so simple & basic and must be trained and emphasised. It should not be left to 'good luck' that the captain or purser has some gumption and common sense. Training departments need to widen their scope and imagination.

DaveReidUK
2nd Jan 2018, 19:17
If weather conditions deteriorated after landing to the point where nothing could push back from occupied gates, all suitable gates were being used and winds exceed the limits for ground service equipment to be used (as happened to me on arrival into NRT about 8 weeks ago) then I'd be quite happy remaining on the plane too.

As would most passengers.

Having been informed, as you obviously were, of the reason for the hold-up.

Arfur Dent
2nd Jan 2018, 19:33
Always regarded part of my duties as Commander was to explain delays or changes of plan to the passengers in a simple, informative way. Doesn't take long but has huge advantages because the pax identify the crew as an ally against the "enemy" (something like LHR not having a gate available on arrival after a 12 hour flight from HKG etc.).
Everyone should do it - not sure why you wouldn't…..

crewmeal
2nd Jan 2018, 19:44
A video courtesy of airlive

ALERT A passenger on board delayed Ryanair flight opens emergency door to leave the aircraft (video) | AIRLIVE.net (http://www.airlive.net/alert-a-passenger-on-board-delayed-ryanair-flight-opens-emergency-door-to-leave-the-aircraft-video/)

A320ECAM
2nd Jan 2018, 21:08
CRM training should involve communication with passengers as well, especially as it is helpful in situations involving delays.

You can be delayed for 5 hours in JFK but by being honest and keeping the passengers in the loop, it can certainly make a difference!

But my outfit's A320 isn't able to make that Atlantic trip.

Herod
2nd Jan 2018, 21:13
Always regarded part of my duties as Commander was to explain delays or changes of plan to the passengers in a simple, informative way.

Couldn't agree more. Tell the truth; it usually is the best answer.

chips101
2nd Jan 2018, 21:16
Cheap tickets, cheap service. Simples 😉

core_dump
2nd Jan 2018, 22:24
A video courtesy of airlive

That site wouldn't let me visit without disabling my adblocker, which I refuse to do. Direct link to the youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVjtImgY-a0

Good Business Sense
2nd Jan 2018, 23:23
without any explanation from the crew.

.... and everyone believes this to be true ?

LNAVmyass
2nd Jan 2018, 23:39
really guys? making this a Ryanair issue? I tend to believe that THIS pax would may have done the same thing with any other carrier.

dont get me wrong, FR is by far not near the place u wanna end up, but I have never seen their underpaid crew to let a behavior like that happen for good.

DaveReidUK
3rd Jan 2018, 06:26
Nobody is making this a Ryanair issue - it's a crew communications issue.

Doubtless RYR have lots of crews who wouldn't have let a situation like this develop, and other airlines quite possibly have some who would have done.

Chris2303
3rd Jan 2018, 06:29
Airline/crew should be charged with unlawful detention!

msbbarratt
3rd Jan 2018, 07:07
Couldn't agree more. Tell the truth; it usually is the best answer.

It's the best answer for calm and serendipity on one's own aircraft I'd have thought.

But if the reason is "someone else in my company has screwed up" I can imagine personnel managerial considerations may (depending on the corporate culture of the airline) force their way into a captain's brain.

I'm writing as SLF; I'd prefer a captain to say "sorry, my colleagues on the ground have fouled up" if that is indeed what has happened. I'm less likely to complain about an airline that permits that than one that tries to cover it up. I'm even less likely to complain if the pilot is telling me that the airport / some other airline / ATC / whoever has fouled up.

I've no idea why this particular flight was stuck on the ground doing nothing all that time; but as a passenger I'd be making my own conclusions from the silence coming from the cockpit. Especially if the aircon had been switched off on a hot day so that the pilot didn't exceed his/her company's miserly fuel allowance.

sudden twang
3rd Jan 2018, 08:35
Airline/crew should be charged with unlawful detention!
Really? Are the crew not being detained also? They can’t get off and it is not caused by them.
The Captain can’t just blame another department in the airline the real cause is not always obvious.
This passenger for reasons unknown has acted irrationally. Is the engine running ? Clearly they didn’t think through what they were going to do when they ran out of wing to walk along. Even if they jumped then what ?you are on the apron and are likely to be arrested. Where is the exit hatch? What delay will the subsequent passengers suffer? I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the next sector/s were cancelled.
There may well be a medical reason why this passenger acted the way they did.

ehwatezedoing
3rd Jan 2018, 09:03
Communication yes.
Apparently this particular passenger is asthmatic and asked the crew that “he needed to take some air”
He literally did it after not a single one (of the crew) took interest in him :p

Apparently......

Super VC-10
3rd Jan 2018, 09:04
Medical reasons may be behind this.

Ryanair passenger jumps out of emergency exit 'after suffering asthma attack' | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/03/ryanair-passenger-jumps-emergency-exit-suffering-asthma-attack-7199234)

Mikehotel152
3rd Jan 2018, 10:37
Why are you all assuming that the crew did not inform the pax of the reason for the delay?

The fact that a person is willing to open an emergency exit and try to climb down off a wing strongly suggests that he was not acting rationally.

There may well have been a PA or a sequence of PAs from the flightdeck and Cabin Crew which were either not heard or were not understood by the pax generally, or this specific pax.

I was once stuck in a UK airport after arriving late. We could not disembark because there was no ground crew, no chocks and no open terminal door. The aircraft on the stand to our right then started to board through the hitherto closed terminal door. Aside from chasing the handlers every few minutes, I made countless sympathetic and apologetic PAs explaining carefully the reasons for the delay. That did not stop a well-spoken English man who had presumably the faculties to hear and intelligence to understand the reasons for the delay, from standing by the open cockpit door pouring personal abuse on me for what he regarded as an unreasonable refusal to allow him to disembark and wander around the apron. If a man like that could act so unreasonably whilst in full receipt of the reasons for a delay, why are you quick to assume that no PAs were made?

And on countless other occasions I have made a number of explanatory PAs to pax only to receive a ding from the Purser to inform me that pax were getting angry and couldn't understand why we hadn't departed or disembarked. Equally, I had a flight last week to Copenhagen where a note was passed to me from a disembarking pax to thank me and the crew for a lovely flight. There were thanks from most other disembarking pax and no complaints. We were over an hour late and I had carefully explained the reasons throughout the flight. So, I agree, keeping people informed can work - but sometimes pax do crazy things or ignore everything said to them.

What you have to understand is that airlines like Ryanair carry vast numbers of pax who do not speak the language in which the PAs are conducted; they do not listen to safety demos; they routinely stand up and try to disembark before the aircraft is even on stand.

Hotel Tango
3rd Jan 2018, 10:57
Why are you all assuming that the crew did not inform the pax of the reason for the delay?

Perhaps because it was reported as such?

ALERT: The Ryanair flight was initially delayed one hour at London Stansted and 30 minutes further at Malaga with passagers on board without any explanation from the crew.

Livesinafield
3rd Jan 2018, 11:13
What a clown, clearly a moron... hopefully he gets a huge fine and a ban from flying... Idiot :ugh:

PDR1
3rd Jan 2018, 11:16
But enough about the aeroplane's Captain - what about the passenger who used the emergency exit?

Mikehotel152
3rd Jan 2018, 11:36
Perhaps because it was reported as such?

And suddenly you accept journalist reports as being correct? Will you be shocked and traumatised by the next Daily Mail "Death plummet from 10,000 feet" headline too?

As I carefully set out in my long post: Pax do not necessarily listen to or understand English PAs. There may well have been PAs and a journalist account is not how you find out!

wiggy
3rd Jan 2018, 11:41
Perhaps because it was reported as such?

Perhaps, but reported where ?..authoritative sources such as Twitter/Farce-book, etc?

I’ve been suprised just how uncommunicative some flight crew can be, but OTOH like others here I know I’ve made PAs around/during delays and then still heard the grumbles about “not being told anything” from some pax when we finally got around to disembarking people.....

Heathrow Harry
3rd Jan 2018, 11:58
It is a recurring isue in ANY delay to the public - no-one communicates. They may not know but they could at least say so.

4EvahLearning
3rd Jan 2018, 12:06
PAX Probably too involved with their electronics and shut off from the world to hear any announcement.

Hotel Tango
3rd Jan 2018, 14:21
Mikehotel152 and wiggy, I simply answered the question "why are you all assuming". It certainly didn't require your tirade, thank you! Just as an aside, I fly roughly 60 to 70 sectors a year. The great majority of Captains are chatty and keep pax informed about delays etc. However, one does from time to time get Captain Grumpy (or whatever) who keeps mum throughout. Additionally some carriers (such as Ryanair) employ many foreign nationals. Whilst some may just about be able to scrape through ICAO r/t communications they possibly may not feel confident enough to make PA announcements requiring a little more than the norm.

No, I don't ever believe what I read in the press but that is irrelevant. As I said, I simply answered the question, i.e., it was "reported" as such.

Alsacienne
3rd Jan 2018, 14:30
But isn't it as clear as the nose on my face that this delay shows that the aircraft did not have a gate assigned - even a remote stand - and therefore the passengers could not leave the aircraft because of the lack of steps (although I know the 738 has front steps built into the a/c!).

Therefore the passenger is liable for personal injury - getting off the wing - and to any aircraft taxying or other airport vehicles in motion .... plus time and costs of refitting the emergency exit.

Whatever the 'reasons' (or lack of them) were or the passenger's personal situation, he should not be 'rewarded' by 'social media fame' and should be shamed and made to pay for the damage and inconvenience caused to other passengers on his flight. And being put on a 'no-fly' list seems quite a good measure as well.

.Scott
3rd Jan 2018, 15:58
Based on the link provide in post #30:
Ryanair passenger jumps out of emergency exit 'after suffering asthma attack' | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/03/ryanair-passenger-jumps-emergency-exit-suffering-asthma-attack-7199234)

The issue, as described by the passenger sitting next to him, was asthma.
I doubt any notification from the pilot would have changed his behavior.

I think the more general issue is that not everyone can accurately assess whether they will be able to tolerate the strains of flying. And, of course, there are variations from flight to flight in both the strains and the passenger.

In response to several earlier posts: Perhaps he was not a moron, a clown, or irrational. Perhaps through poor planning he simply got in over his head and needed to depart for his own survival.

G-CPTN
3rd Jan 2018, 17:04
Ryanair passenger who prised open emergency door ‘is Polish man who lived in £35-a-week Costa del Sol homeless hostel (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5261353/ryanair-passenger-who-prised-open-emergency-door-is-polish-man-who-lived-in-35-a-week-costa-del-sol-homeless-hostel/)'.
meaning he is unlikely to be able to afford a hefty fine

The Range
3rd Jan 2018, 17:52
What happened to the glamour of flying?

Skyjob
3rd Jan 2018, 19:09
Always think it is best to address the pax prior to departure and in case of delays from the cabin when possible, rather than using the flight deck microphone. A very wise captain once told me this after severe delays and complications.

It worked then and works now, try it.

Regarding the above case, there’s always a bit more to it than a simple story, maybe better details will emerge shortly as to how this could’ve happened.

Nightstop
3rd Jan 2018, 19:44
The Homeless use FR often for commuting. Beg for while, buy a late night return. Sleep in a Terminal downroute somewhere for the night, facilities provided FOC. Return next morning, beg again and so on.

G-CPTN
3rd Jan 2018, 22:08
Malaga Airport Guardia Civil chief Miguel Sanchez said Mr Graczyk, 57, could now could face a £40,000 fine for his air security breach.
But the fine may be difficult to enforce, as it emerged yesterday that Mr Craczyk’s last known address is a homeless hostel.
From:- Passenger who left Ryanair flight by emergency door is homeless and unlikely to pay £40k fine (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/03/passenger-left-ryanair-flight-emergency-door-homeless-unlikely/)

ASH26E
4th Jan 2018, 09:02
Reading the description of his in-flight behaviour from the escapee's fellow passenger (based on the media links provided), if there is a medical cause of this gentleman's precipitate departure, it would appear to be more above the neck than below it.

flash8
4th Jan 2018, 18:33
The Homeless use FR often for commuting. Beg for while, buy a late night return. Sleep in a Terminal downroute somewhere for the night, facilities provided FOC. Return next morning, beg again and so on.

Is that right? (Not disputing you here).... quite mind boggling ;)

Gauges and Dials
4th Jan 2018, 19:28
What's missing in a lot of the "explanations" here is a very important second half of the sentence.

I'm reading a lot of "there was no way to let the passengers off," when I think the actual truth was "there was no way to let the passengers off without inconveniencing the airline or the airport staff."

There is always a way to let the passengers off. 738s have a built-in front stairway. Mobile stairways abound at every airport. No gate? No problem; there's always some door somewhere leading from the ramp into the terminal; passengers could be deplaned and directed to that door.

People get so hung up on "this is the standard way we do things" that they fail to take a step back and realize that there are alternative solutions available.

Out Of Trim
4th Jan 2018, 21:15
:=Guages and Dials,
Clearly has no airport knowledge about inbound and outbound passenger segregration and security regulations!

Gauges and Dials
5th Jan 2018, 01:40
... And that's just the attitude I was talking about. Actually I know a fair bit about inbound and outbound passenger segregation and security regulations.

Neither of which, of course, are immutable laws of physics, violation of which would cause the world to come to an end.

Would it be a hassle to let passengers off the plane, to walk across the apron and enter the terminal through some random door? Of course. That doesn't make it "impossible" by even the remotest stretch of the imagination. And, deploying a few extra staff to watch the corridors and doors along the way, would make it possible to do so without even busting anyone's precious security theater.

Everyone needs to understand that there's a world of difference between "we can't do that," and "we can't do that without busting some paper-pusher's rule and making a little extra work for ourselves."

Alsacienne
5th Jan 2018, 05:45
Would it be a hassle to let passengers off the plane, to walk across the apron and enter the terminal through some random door?Hassle? Needs some definition as for whom. To spring this on ground staff would not be a good thing ... think of the strength of ill-feeling when deplaning FR passengers cannot access the terminal at STN as a starting point.

to walk across the apron - depends on the distance and any taxying aircraft or other moving vehicles ... could cause delay or put lives at risk ... and what about any disabled passengers on the aircraft?

enter the terminal through some random door - contamination between incoming and outgoing passengers possible, who has the key and who controls the movement of 150+ passengers? Not a good spontaneous idea.

Everyone needs to understand that there's a world of difference between "we can't do that," and "we can't do that without busting some paper-pusher's rule and making a little extra work for ourselves."

Understood but this is not a good spontaneous move, especially as the individual concerned seems to have health and lifestyle problems.

WingNut60
5th Jan 2018, 13:49
What's missing in a lot of the "explanations" here is a very important second half of the sentence.

I'm reading a lot of "there was no way to let the passengers off," when I think the actual truth was "there was no way to let the passengers off without inconveniencing the airline or the airport staff."

There is always a way to let the passengers off. 738s have a built-in front stairway. Mobile stairways abound at every airport. No gate? No problem; there's always some door somewhere leading from the ramp into the terminal; passengers could be deplaned and directed to that door.

People get so hung up on "this is the standard way we do things" that they fail to take a step back and realize that there are alternative solutions available.

But that can not be anything outside of an existing procedure!

The problem seems to have been all about lack of communication.
Passengers actions totally unacceptable.
As was that of the crew; maybe FD, maybe cabin.

If the passenger is subject to censure then so should be the crew.

slip and turn
5th Jan 2018, 15:15
The Homeless use FR often for commuting. Beg for while, buy a late night return. Sleep in a Terminal downroute somewhere for the night, facilities provided FOC. Return next morning, beg again and so on.Oh so you mean The Homeless are almost as transient as aircrew, except the beds are not as comfortable, and The Homeless Beggars are surprisingly wealthy enough to pay for their flying at short notice, or did you mean they plan it and their cashflow budgeting weeks in advance to get the cheap overnight prices? I notice you use a capital 'H' - in worshipful manner ? I've added a Big B for rasBerry on that :hmm:

And what is the story thesedays in EU regarding inbound and outbound contamination between passengers? One airport I use very regularly has it happening by design in a long corridor adjacent to the apron all airside of passport control. The only thing stopping FR inbound pax turning on their heel and flying back is the lack of a boarding pass to show cabin crew at the top of the aircraft steps, and they could even bypass that if they had conspired with an outbound passenger and either swapped places or displayed the outbound passenger's boarding pass on a second phone.

Thinking about it, this also would risk the scenario where an outbound passenger who had checked in a bag did not to fly - he need only turn on his heel after passport control and join the inbound queue, and show his passport again at a different desk as he exited.

Actually I raised this with airport security some months ago when they'd removed a wall (permanently it now seems) and created the situation. I got a blank response. Maybe we don't actually worry about such things anymore, else CCTV, facial recognition software, and passport scanning is all seamlessly integrated across EU and Schengen, and uniformed officers would come running the moment we step out of line?

And Communication? You mean like we still have to think outside the systems boxes and engage brain and speak to the great unwashed too?

Glad the Polish asthmatic got his air and didn't hurt himself.

Regular passengers notice all the foibles, opportunities and inconsistencies, and so they notice that top hinged 738 wing exits don't actually require much to close again, so no harm done really, eh?

Lessons learned all round we hope ... :}

Gauges and Dials
5th Jan 2018, 16:57
Hassle? Needs some definition as for whom. To spring this on ground staff would not be a good thing ... think of the strength of ill-feeling when deplaning FR passengers cannot access the terminal at STN as a starting point.

Think of the strength of ill-feeling when passengers are held captive without an explanation.


to walk across the apron - depends on the distance and any taxying aircraft or other moving vehicles ... could cause delay or put lives at risk ... and what about any disabled passengers on the aircraft?

Other taxiing aircraft and moving vehicles have brakes, which the pilots / drivers can apply so as to avoid putting lives at risks. Yes, of course it could cause delay -- but that's different from "it's impossible"


enter the terminal through some random door - contamination between incoming and outgoing passengers possible, who has the key and who controls the movement of 150+ passengers? Not a good spontaneous idea.


On the overall scale of things, how serious is this risk? I would argue that the risk is immeasurably small. Since the incident is by definition unplanned, no malicious actor would be able to pre-position so as to take advantage of it. Not to mention that security screenings miss something upwards of 75% of contraband in tests, so allowing 100 passengers potential access to the departure area isn't really a big deal.

Gauges and Dials
5th Jan 2018, 17:11
What's interesting here I think, is the reflection of industry culture and corporate culture. There are very different mindsets required for different parts of the industry, and a "one size fits all" mindset does not work.

For the people who are flying and maintaining the aircraft, the exemplary forward progress of western aviation safety suggests that we're doing pretty much the right thing: carefully developing procedures and following them. For pilots and mechanics, the personality type whose first instinct is "hey, let's try something new," is quite wrong.

On the other hand, in spite of the senior management of the airlines trying to convince Wall Street that they are in an industrial business that involves moving metal around the country, they are, to their constant annoyance, in the hospitality business. In that situation, a culture of "These are the rules and we need to follow them without fail." is exactly wrong.

What works excellently for operations, works terribly for hospitality, and we are seeing increasing numbers of instances of the conflict between the two mindsets creating misery all around.

Less Hair
5th Jan 2018, 17:49
Didn't too many airlines forget about that a long time ago? More seats less lavs. No food and service at all? Flying Strato-Greyhounds including the same clientele. So no surprise.

triploss
5th Jan 2018, 17:52
And what is the story thesedays in EU regarding inbound and outbound contamination between passengers? One airport I use very regularly has it happening by design in a long corridor adjacent to the apron all airside of passport control. The only thing stopping FR inbound pax turning on their heel and flying back is the lack of a boarding pass to show cabin crew at the top of the aircraft steps, and they could even bypass that if they had conspired with an outbound passenger and either swapped places or displayed the outbound passenger's boarding pass on a second phone.


There is no story. Passengers from the UK are considered sterile, and end up in the sterile non-schengen area at airports that have that (some airports don't have a sterile non-schengen area so you end up in the non-sterile area, which is a pain - some don't have enough gates in the sterile area so likewise send you to non-sterile). Same as passengers from the US, possibly Canada too - no security needed before boarding your next flight. (The opposite direction doesn't always work - Canada seem to be trying to allow sterile connections, but in a weird way where all arriving passengers mix, followed by allowing people to skip security based on their arriving boarding pass. The UK and the US simply couldn't care less and waste everyone's time.)

And ID checks at boarding are quite rare for Schengen internal flights IME. Some countries do it, but many don't. At least there is positive bag matching (at least relative to ticket if not passenger), the US don't even bother with that.

slip and turn
5th Jan 2018, 19:48
...At least there is positive bag matching (at least relative to ticket if not passenger), the US don't even bother with that.Nor does the EU airport I often use. As I mentioned earlier, the FR UK inbound and EU outbound to UK same aircraft flight (and maybe others - I have no experience of those at this airport) always mixes the airside inbound and outbound queues airside of passport control in both cases. Passport control inbound is separately manned some distance from passport control outbound and both are the closest functions airside to the aircraft. Bags to the hold can be identified with the credentials of who dropped them, but as there is no further check that those people ever get on the aircraft or whether instead, they double-back after passing through gate checks and scans and passport control, but then leave the airport with the inbounds, the hold bags can no longer be guaranteed accompanied on the outbound flight, now can they?

The venue I'm referring to regularly has 2x189 pax opposite direction long queues completely mixed in a 4 meter wide, 30 metre long corridor with seats for whoever fancies them down the sides. It is so mixed that inbound pax often have to weave round outbound seated pax legs and bags and loose kids as they head into the terminal. On inbound I have stood for minutes with the outbound queue chatting to neighbours standing waiting to board outbound who by arrangement used my car to get to the airport (saves parking charges!). We had arranged to use two different keys but I could have gone with my gut feeling that one key handed over in the inevitable mixed queue would have been sufficient due to the recent disappearance of the partition between us!

The effect of the removal of the wall between inbound and outbound has the effect that they could have left the outbound queue and gone back landside with me, and that means they could have left one or more checked-in bags to fly to UK unaccompanied. No-one would have been the wiser other than if count was occurring on the aircraft (and who has noticed one of those recently on FR, eh?). Even with allocated seating there are no checks so long as everyone is happy and not getting cabin-crew involved. I sit in my allocated seat about one flight in five - I blag the other four because as a regular pax, I know where the likely unsold more comfortable seats will be and one time even got to sit in someone else's allocated seat because I'd blagged from cabin crew on the offchance, and cabin crew smoothly persuaded said dispossessed that another seat was just as good! So it isn't so much the pax being treated as automatically sterile - because it seems no-one notices whether we are actually there or not after we've been through the usual motions at the gate - we can just as easily turn up after that as an undetected surplus, or our empty seat can be an undetected deficit onboard. It's the checked-in bags that now seem to be being treated as automatically sterile.

And back to the rubbing shoulders aspects of a mixed queue, it just so happens my neighbours are from two separate non-EU countries, and they do not carry EU or Schengen ID.

So is segregation of inbound and outbound international pax and bag matching to actual flying pax at all important anymore ? ... I'm now guessing not ...

As Guages and Dials begins to highlight quite well, we have many effects which are a reflection of the gross inconsistencies that can occur with the permutations of 1001 different brands of hospitality versus almost as many combinations of slick transport and airport security operations. Cabin crew may smile and let me informally "upgrade" my seat and even sit in someone else's seat, but who am I? Unless they ask to see my boarding pass and ID (and they never have in any of the tens of times I've blagged a different seat) they've only got my word that I even belong on the aircraft in the first place, because I could be using another pax boarding pass - even one belonging to someone who is also on the aircraft sat in their proper seat or not, especially at the EU airport airport and on the airline I've alluded to. Alternatively I and everyone else could be sat in the cabin in the allocated seat of one who didn't fly but checked-in a bag which did ... but hey, it's part of life's rich pattern, I guess ... are we at all bovvered?

neilki
5th Jan 2018, 23:02
Just think back to the days when passengers in the US were kept onboard for 5/6 hours waiting.. Didn't congress make regulations to end that practise?

After 1-2 hours there can be no “valid” reason!
Yes, Congress did. Its called the DOT 3 Hour rule (https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7210.745PI.pdf)
We receive automated ACARS messages if not airborne within 30 minutes of Out Time, and they require a specific scripted Pax PA and confirmation back to the Company; with increasing levels of visibility in the OCC as time progresses. We can even make a specific request to Ground to expedite gate return based on the DOT3. Penalties, as explained to me; run into the tens of thousands of dollars per Pax.
It's taken very seriously in the US.

triploss
6th Jan 2018, 03:50
Nor does the EU airport I often use. As I mentioned earlier, the FR UK inbound and EU outbound to UK same aircraft flight (and maybe others - I have no experience of those at this airport) always mixes the airside inbound and outbound queues airside of passport control in both cases. Passport control inbound is separately manned some distance from passport control outbound and both are the closest functions airside to the aircraft. Bags to the hold can be identified with the credentials of who dropped them, but as there is no further check that those people ever get on the aircraft or whether instead, they double-back after passing through gate checks and scans and passport control, but then leave the airport with the inbounds, the hold bags can no longer be guaranteed accompanied on the outbound flight, now can they?


This is exactly the way it's supposed to be. Passport control is completely independent of boarding, all they're responsible for is checking that you're able to enter the country and/or that you didn't overstay when leaving the country. Most EU and Schengen airports do this: passengers from the UK (and US) are dumped directly into the departures area of the non-schengen gates. They can then proceed to another gate directly without passport control if they're continuing to a non-Schengen country (arrivals from non-sterile countries go through security first, but no passpot checks same as UK/US). Passport control is only needed if you either want to exit the airport, or go into the Schengen departure area.

The bag matching is done when boarding passes are scanned, at which point passengers should no longer be mixed. (Also, many airlines count passengers when boarding so a mismatch would be detected if someone didn't scan their boarding pass.) Flights to the UK also _have_ to check passenger ID when boarding, so bags are positively matched to an identity - but that's separate from passport control run by the immigration authorities. Most schengen-internal flights don't do that ID check when boarding, but they still match bags against boarding passes.

slip and turn
7th Jan 2018, 00:06
This is exactly the way it's supposed to be.No, I can't imagine so :hmm:

I think I have confused you by mentioning passport control which could be pre or post gate at different airports. In the airport in question it just happens to be the last check before boarding the aircraft i.e. it is after the gate, so after the last boarding pass scan and ID check. Yes it is a separate function to the airline gate check and electronic bag match. But both opportunities for the final scan and control are compromised. The relevant fault is all caused by the free mixing of inbounds and outbounds after the gate which means outbound pax can easily leave undetected at that point without having to abnormally run across an apron and vault a fence! The inbounds who've been mixed with final scanned and ID'd outbounds are merely subject to a passport check to get landside. One or more deliberate non-fliers i.e. who had not boarded after being counted and scanned through their boarding gate, would not be noticed or challenged - their flight would depart short of SOBs, and no-one would be the wiser.

The bag matching is done when boarding passes are scannedYes, scanned once when dropping the bag landside and a second time when passing through the gate and being counted through the gate, thus confirming the match of bag with original drop-off passenger ...... at which point passengers should no longer be mixed. That's my point ... they are then mixed :eek:
(Also, many airlines count passengers when boarding so a mismatch would be detected if someone didn't scan their boarding pass.) Flights to the UK also _have_ to check passenger ID when boarding, so bags are positively matched to an identity ... Nope, because "boarding" is contaminated by mixing post gate, the theory is compromised at the airport I described, I'm afraid. Bag matching is all about making sure a pax who checks in a bag flies with it without fail, right? Else the bag should be pulled.

Mixing occurs after going through their gate and showing ID.
Boarding or not becomes an undetectable choice although of course most do not realise they have the choice to walk out the airport quickly with the inbounds if they wish without a word to anyone.
No counts occur as pax climb the stairs with my favourite airline
rarely is there a count when all pax are onboard anymore - most of the reasons for having to do them are "thought" to have been eliminated by newer digital systems of control.
cabin crew merely glance at boarding passes to make sure you have boarded the correct flight and to point you to the right part of the cabin.

There was a period when we had multiple failed counts onboard which I assume occurred only when the number of boarding passes at the gate did not match the number on the loading sheet - there was a time (pre-digital) when you couldn't get airside without showing ID with boarding pass - before there were unmanned scanning machines at the gates.

I am sure all changes have been implemented in good faith, and are intended to maintain security and improve it, but the trouble is, there are still far too many variations of airport pax handling at each destination to reasonably expect any EU-wide or Schengen-wide, or worldwide one-size-fits-all directive to work at every venue. As a result, I have a nasty feeling the plot still gets lost sometimes in more ways than you might imagine!

I appreciate this is all a far cry from what caused a Ryanair pax to let himself out of a wing exit, but broadly it is still about what bad things potentially happen when you squash passengers into small spaces where they don't think they ought to be, especially they realise they are being "kettled".

In small spaces bumping with others, they even have time to work out how to breach the system should they so wish on another occasion. By "kettled" I mean they are involuntarily held in some way in a confined area until the airport or the airline is ready to deal with letting them move freely. That just as well applies to being held on the aircraft on stand waiting unreasonably for ground crew to bring stairs (which simply shouldn't happen), or queuing in poorly lit and steep gate stairwells never designed for it before being release onto the apron. Some of those include areas which I would question as safe for nearly 200 people to be crammed into with what appear to be locked exits until the airport is ready to let you onto the apron! This need for kettling the pax close to the stand in order to reduce turnround times now also seems to include, at at least one airport, the sort of actual apronside mixing of inbound and outbound international pax. That simply can't be right however you look at it.

We humans don't like being "kettled" against our will. It's a natural aversion. "Queueing" is something else - that's an optional activity. Spending time flying in a cigar tube plus a modest bit of time on the ground both ends is also optional - but when that gets extended unreasonably ("lo-cost" has certainly redefined that!), we shouldn't be surprised some people get more and more claustrophobic and a few are driven to do strange things.

Mikehotel152
7th Jan 2018, 08:58
This thread has gone a bit astray.

The fact is that this was New Year's Day; the aircraft had a slot outbound from STN and arrived to a remote stand in AGP where no buses were available. The crew made PAs to the passengers at all stages.

Anybody who has piloted commercial aircraft around Europe will know that at busy times ATC slot delays are the rule, not the exception. A 1 hour delay is not unusual. Waiting for ground transport for pax on arrival is not unusual either, and wouldn't surprise me on New Year's Day when an aircraft arrives an hour late. I'm not saying things can't be organised better. Of course they can. But some things are not in the hands of the flight crew.

No Captain in his right mind would allow a plane load of pax to disembark and walk across a busy apron to a terminal building a few hundred metres away. To suggest that his or her unwillingness to countenance the option of doing so represents a failure to 'think outside the box' is nonsense.

This is simply a case of a distressed pax doing something silly.

DaveReidUK
7th Jan 2018, 09:18
The crew made PAs to the passengers at all stages.

May we be permitted to know your source for that statement, given that it directly contradicts other reports?

slip and turn
7th Jan 2018, 09:48
This thread has gone a bit astray.Guilty! So has certain types of communication with and control of pax in airports and aircraft!

The fact is that this was New Year's DaySo what? This is aviation. I came into STN on New Year's afternoon. It was a breeze! Are New Year's Day's elsewhere written off as bad days?
... the aircraft had a slot outbound from STN and arrived to a remote stand in AGP where no buses were available.Shouldn't have happened.
The crew made PAs to the passengers at all stages.

Anybody who has piloted commercial aircraft around Europe will know that at busy times ATC slot delays are the rule, not the exception. A 1 hour delay is not unusual.The lions share of EU-EU flights of 150+ pax loads are FR. A 1 hour delay is not unusual at the end of the day, but destinations know it so should be covering it. My rental car is always ready with a smile the moment I pick it up after a long delay. They have my flight number, and if they have nothing else, but we'd hope they do, they have FR24 on their smartphones. They find other things to do until I arrive. It's called planning.

This is simply a case of a distressed pax doing something silly.This is simply a case of p!ss poor planning distressing the pax.