China Southern medical?

[spacejockey]

Selection done but thinking about staying put where I am. Can anyone confirm the following?

- Medical failures running at almost 2-3 per week?
- pilots being made to do angiogram at own expense whilst on 100 dollars a day?
- company immediately putting you on 100 dollars a day without any discussion?
- pilots with nothing wrong with them failing medical and not being paid back for the three to four months lost earnings?
- insurance useless?

Are they actually really behaving like that?

Thanks

[Jazbag]

Just had the third known case known to me in the last year or so of a pilot being grounded for months for a non existent kidney stone.... yes and minimum downtime is three months even if he manages to explode the stone with US.

Medical is a big problem area!

[Jazbag]

and then there was one more decent soul who had a cyst on the skull diagnosed as a brain tumour. He was down for a couple of months and has left for other reasons... is now a SFI

[mach85]

Selection done but thinking about staying put where I am. Can anyone confirm the following?

- Medical failures running at almost 2-3 per week?
- pilots being made to do angiogram at own expense whilst on 100 dollars a day?
- company immediately putting you on 100 dollars a day without any discussion?
- pilots with nothing wrong with them failing medical and not being paid back for the three to four months lost earnings?
- insurance useless?

Are they actually really behaving like that?

Thanks

Pretty much yes. Nice isnt it!!!

There are constantly guys off the line for medical and yes they will hit you to 100$ immediately without any discussion.
Absolutely no chance to get any lost money back even if it turns out that you were healthy all along.

We dont seem to be making any progress on this medical issue. Shame really.
Seemingly contract amendment coming sometime this year so lets see although I wouldn't hold your breath for it.....

Too many people applying here for imaginary RSP slots that agents keep telling them are available even though they are ALL full with waiting lists that CSA dont see the need to amend the contract more in line with what others in China are offering.
Medical pay, AL days, pay, bonuses etc etc are all now very inferior at CSA compared to the new 'standard' on offer in China by HNA, SUP, Unitop etc.

RSP is a major pull to CSA but when they are all full like now then not many other reasons to come here when you look at the medical treatment for example........

Cheers

[blueonblue]

All true. Caac Medical now stupid, it’s not medicine and the staff are not doctors. The company are not taking any responsibility here and you go immediately on 100 dollars a day without any discussion or waiting period. Agent useless and insurance useless. Yes you pay for follow up procedures some of which may actually make you sick when you weren’t sick to start with. I would advice all to hold off joining until this is sorted as you are leaving your current job for a contract which can simply not pay you at will. Also you can be FINED 600 dollars a day if you are sick at home. This needs to be sorted and currently isn’t.

And yes there is no rsp for any new joiner it’s guangzhou rsp.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

It is not only China Southern it is a China wide problem. Lasting six years in China is extremely ridden with pitfalls and high risk all along the path. The initial medical failure rate is now about 35% and recurrent failure rates are 5-10%. This coupled with astronaut style check rides, punishment for small mistakes and FOQA (QAR) items like long landings beyond 2000 feet, high or low rotation rates on takeoff, hard landings above 1.6 whether yours or your Copilots, speed brakes extended with falpas greater than 5, any GPWS warnings like sink rate, bank angle or any altitude deviations greater than 300 feet and numerous other items besides the medicals make it a long hard road to stay in China. It is certainly not for the faint of heart or those inflexible or those who complain at all as they will rapidly get rid of you through numerous draconian management styles. Come here and make as much as you can as fast as you can but don't think this is a long term job both for your sanity and your ability to stay flying here.

[EagleA25]

Words of wisdom!
👍🏼

It is not only China Southern it is a China wide problem. Lasting six years in China is extremely ridden with pitfalls and high risk all along the path. The initial medical failure rate is now about 35% and recurrent failure rates are 5-10%. This coupled with astronaut style check rides, punishment for small mistakes and FOQA (QAR) items like long landings beyond 2000 feet, high or low rotation rates on takeoff, hard landings above 1.6 whether yours or your Copilots, speed brakes extended with falpas greater than 5, any GPWS warnings like sink rate, bank angle or any altitude deviations greater than 300 feet and numerous other items besides the medicals make it a long hard road to stay in China. It is certainly not for the faint of heart or those inflexible or those who complain at all as they will rapidly get rid of you through numerous draconian management styles. Come here and make as much as you can as fast as you can but don't think this is a long term job both for your sanity and your ability to stay flying here.

[mach85]

........and FOQA (QAR) items like long landings beyond 2000 feet........


By Jingo i have never ever seen a local pilot land inside 2000 feet at CSA 😛

Our QAR level 3 long landing is 1400M!!!! That is no word of a lie. Any less than that and they would be pulling locals off the line left right and centre.........😂😂

[gulliBell]

I recently finished a 3 year contract with China Southern as a sim instructor in their training department. I have no complaints at all. They treated me well, paid exactly as per the contract, you just go with the flow with the medical and all the China admin. You have a minder the whole of the way who takes you to where you need to go, jump through the hoops you need to jump through, talks to the right people to make things happen, etc etc. Eventually you get to the end of the induction process. There are some minor out-of-pocket expenses along the way, it's easier just to pay it and submit an expense claim and they pay you back the following month. You are on a basic salary whilst undergoing induction, but it's more than $100/day. Can't remember the actual number, probably closer to $200/day after tax.

Sure, some guys fail their sim check-rides. If you think the pilots get hard sim rides, I can tell you they are much tougher doing check rides on their own sim instructors. They gave me a hard time, spared no mercy at all. I never saw anybody get failed unfairly, and plenty that might have failed but weren't. All things considered the whole experience was a big thumbs up from me.

[blueonblue]

Ehhh??? We don’t have any foreign sim instructors and all the sim instructors I’ve met are grounded.. as in Medical gone?

[gulliBell]

That’s right, I was the last white boy to go, at the end of October. And not all sim instructors were there for medical reasons, I for one still hold a class 1 medical.

[RemoveB4Flght]

Being typed and experienced on both 777 and 787, if you had to choose between the two at CS can anyone comment on the general route/lifestyle difference?

[mach85]

Being typed and experienced on both 777 and 787, if you had to choose between the two at CS can anyone comment on the general route/lifestyle difference?

Depends what you are looking for from the job really.
If your aim is an eventual RSP then take the fleet that services that port. Even then though there is no guarantee it will stay as has been proven by the opening and closing of AKL RSP as the type servicing the route changes.
CSA basically only have 1 cargo AC and its the 777F so those RSP's seem reasonably stable.........for now!!

If your plan is 20/10 CAN or MOMO CAN then take the 787.
777 does alot of flying from PVG aswell which means countless DH'ing between CAN and PVG. A pain in the arse by all accounts especially in the summer which huge flow control delays.
787 does all its flying from CAN so none of that BS to contend with. Also 20 something 787's on order so the destinations will no doubt increase if you are looking for variety.

So think what you are coming for and make the decision accordingly.

As mentioned above though, think if giving up your current job to come here is really what you want to do.
The medical is a big issue here and guys are constantly stepping on CSA landmines and being put on 100$ a day for sweet FA.
Unfortunately we had a spate of 3 pilots(all young) passing away unexpectedly within the space of 6 weeks towards the end of last year. It would seem that this has caused a knee jerk reaction in the medical department and made their ridiculous medicals even more ridiculous.

All the best with what you decide.

Cheers,

[POWDERFINGER]

I can only laugh when posts appear from current or former contract pilots claiming fairness in medicals or sim checks. No, the first truth you must learn about Chinese airlines and the CAAC is that they function like a mafia.

There is no "just culture" in China and no respect for universally applied rules / contracts.

You can be failed for nothing if they don't like you or kept despite problems if they do. Often it is a decision of whether or not an airline will grease palms for pilots they want to retain. Else, they can put up never ending obstacles in front of pilots for issues that are no big deal outside of China.

So, good luck with those sims and medicals; hope the grease is in your favor.

[The_Loner]

I recently finished a 3 year contract with China Southern as a sim instructor in their training department. I have no complaints at all. ..

Retirement as a wumao troll for CSA sounds like fun. Why be part of the solution when you can be part of the problem?

[gulliBell]

I guess my 1250 posts in 15 years here on the forum doesn't count much compared to somebody with 12 posts over 5 years.

[The_Loner]

I guess my 1250 posts in 15 years here on the forum doesn't count much compared to somebody with 12 posts over 5 years.

Empty barrels make the most noise.

Ladies and gents of PPRUNE, be careful and have backup plans if you want to work for China Southern or any other Chinese company. There are a thousand ways the mafiosi can cut your career short. A million ways to use "grey areas" circumvent your contracts.

[gulliBell]

..Ladies and gents of PPRUNE, be careful and have backup plans if you want to work for China Southern or any other Chinese company...

Yes, and the same can be said for working as an expatriate in whatever profession in whatever other countries. Common sense to have eyes wide open before jumping, and the pprune medium is part of that. I'm no CSN stooge, I don't work there any more. But I got good mileage out of my experience there, they were good to me. I can't say the same for many of my experiences elsewhere. Others might get different mileage, depends what you drive and how hard you drive it.

[Jazbag]

It seems that some people like the chinese experiment.... but beware being a sim instructor is not the same as a line captain. There is no career progression to sim instructors for grounded foreign pilots... you get just three months at 100$ a day. Thats it after that nothing. There are no foreign pilot sim instructors that i have known in CSA. Also the medical would count when you apply for your renewal in another country. You need to declare if you lose your medical in ANY country. There is no guarantee that you will get a proper job after leaving China... unless you are from Oz and are on furlough from Qantas or have an assured job later. Insurances don't pay anything against loss of chinese medical. One of my colleagues had this problem and the insurance refused to pay.

[gulliBell]

... unless you are from Oz and are on furlough from Qantas or have an assured job later....

Speaking of which, a friend of mine who is a QF B747 SFO and about to go on A380 course has had a year off due losing his medical (heart murmur). Qantas continued to pay his full salary for a year whilst on sick leave. Give them credit for that.

[gulliBell]

...There are no foreign pilot sim instructors that i have known in CSA..

12 months ago there were three, and then two, and then one, and since October there are none.

[blueonblue]

There have never been any foreign sim instructors at CSN. It’s easy to count as we have never had one. Confirmed.

By and large it’s a a very good job, it would be the best job in the world if they sorted out some kind of understanding with pilots over how the contract functions after medical failure.

[Manuel Reversion]

Me neither , I did a type rating with CSA and have never seen a foreign pilot sim instructor.
Something doesn’t add up here.
I’m sure that among current pilots at CSA we have no instructors for sim or line.
Gullibell, prior your stint at CSA did you have much experience as a sim instructor?

[Savage175]

I also have never heard of or seen any Foreign Pilot Sim Instructors at China Southern. Which fleet gulliBell?

[blueonblue]

Back on subject.. I believe the medical/sickness issues have claimed another victim, is it true someone has now been fined 600 dollars a day under the sickness clause or not?

[mach85]

Back on subject.. I believe the medical/sickness issues have claimed another victim, is it true someone has now been fined 600 dollars a day under the sickness clause or not?

Yes totally true. Unbelievable isnt it!!!!

He landed in his home country with blood coming out of his ear.
DR said absolutely no flying for a month. This was reported to the fleet and accepted.

He didn't receive salary for that month as no flying. Kind of understandable I guess as we are contract pilots.

BUT then he returns to Guangzhou to be told he is being fined 600$ a day extra as company doctor doesn't agree with the Dr he saw in his home country. Absolutely unbelievable.

So getting sick in a country away from China cost him about 40k€!!!

Yes you read that right. Double salary loss for 1 month away from flying.

It really is disgusting.
Do your research I guess before you come here. If we knew this was how they would interpret the contract then a lot of us would never have joined.

If you still want to take the risk then that's up to you of course. If so then see you down here.

Cheers,

[donpizmeov2]

Do your research I guess before you come here. If we knew this was how they would interpret the contract then a lot of us would never have joined.

... isn't that part of the mandatory information your agency must provide? Or they just suck your money without representing your basic interest?

[blueonblue]

Another one today. Organised leave to visit his sick father, approved without a problem and this guy is careful. Father sadly passed. Comes back and finds out that he’s not being paid for the month (fair enough) but also being fined 16k for being absent. This can only be explained by management wanting us gone... as in all of us I think...