Cross-wind limits for DH 82A Tiger Moth aircraft

[Centaurus]

Request info cross-wind limits for Tiger Moths. RAAF Pilots Notes (dated 1944) does not mention crosswind limits.

[john_tullamarine]

Dave has an old DCA manual by the looks of things .. he might have more information if you were to give him a call

https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/133510-tiger-moth-x-wind-limit.html

[VictorGolf]

I work with a team here in the UK with a similar problem. The common view is that a crosswind limit wasn't published when the Pilots Notes were written because the airfields of the time were all grass and so take off and landing were in to wind as required. Our lot use 10kts as a ballpark and increase that with experience and the agreement of the CFI.

[mustbeaboeing]

Thanks for posting information regarding large grass airfields of the day, and this lack of info about ‘crosswind’ limit. I have access to an aeroplane, not DH type, of late 1950’s vintage which similarly does not include said figures. UK

(Edited to include UK)

[welkyboy]

Crosswinds weren’t invented until airfields were constructed during WW2 with hard runways

[evansb]

I appreciate the humour regarding hard runways.

Given this is Aviation History and Nostalgia, between 1928-29 the grass (turf) runways at the Ford Airport in Dearborn, Michigan are paved—the first concrete runways in the world.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

AFAIK crosswind 'limits' are not 'limits' in the real sense. They are 'max demonstrated', rather than a hard limit.

In something like a Moth there are tricks to take out some of the crosswind anyway, such as landing more into-wind than the runway direction (except on very narrow runways of course!).

Max demonstrated for the Chipmunk is 15Kts. I'm sure I'm not the only pilot who has landed one with no drama in more than that on a suitable runway.

To answer the question I'd echo the advice of VG and start with 10Kts and work up from there.

Of course one of the problems with cross winds is that they can introduce turbulence from trees, buildings, etc which are not normally upwind of the approach but in a crosswind become a factor. The Tiger Moth's less than steller roll control at low speed (any speed!) could become a problem in these circumstances.

[Kemble Pitts]

Its worth noting the difference between, and the different effects of, a cross-wind component and a 90 degree cross-wind of the same value.

Say you have the choice of a 10 knot wind at 90 degrees to the runway or a 50 knot wind 11 degrees off another runway heading - giving a 10 knot cross-wind component.

Its six and one half dozen isn't it?

Well, no.

Ignoring the fact that a Tiger will want to swing to the right on take off so you should, given the option of cross-winds, take a cross-wind from the left to help cancel this out...

Which of the two above options do you take?

If you take the 50 knot wind 11 degrees off the runway and you swing about 11 degrees during the take off (not unheard of) you've now got no cross-wind at all (and you'll be off the ground in a couple of yards too).

If you take the 10 knot wind at 90 degrees to the runway you've got a cross-wind component all the way (unless you exit the runway stage-left at 90 degrees!!!) and you have no head-wind to help you.

Not all cross-wind components are equal...

The real problem with operating a Tiger in windy conditions tends to be more the problem of taxying to and from the runway rather than the actual take-off and landing (assuming no gusts which will add another dimension to your day).

As has been said above, build up to it slowly and get yourself a wing- walker if necessary.

[megan]

and you'll be off the ground in a couple of yards tooThat would be zero yards in a Tiger. Had the case of a lad in a Chippie trying to land after a horrendous wind sprang up, bunch of us had to go out to the runway while he hovered and we pulled him down to the ground and piled on the weight.

[StallsandSpins]

I inherited quite a few original 1930's era Dehavilland factory pilot handbooks for many of the moth types from my grandfather. They do not specify any cross wind limits or G limits in any of them. The DH86 doesn't even have any loading system even though its about as big as a Navajo. They read more like suggestions for for how one may operate the aircraft to achieve best range and shortest landing distance. The leopard moth handbook states that the pilot "should take off into the wind" and that's pretty much it. It also suggests "that the aircraft is stressed for light Aerobatics" but doesn't actually state what maneuvers constitute light aerobatics and what speeds they should be done at. Its completely the opposite to modern Cessna handbook which is as thick as the bible and explicitly states what one shall and shall not do with the aircraft.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

And of course taxying in a crosswind in a taildragger can be more of an issue than the landing. Especially in a Tiger, with no brakes.

[Centaurus]

And of course taxying in a crosswind in a taildragger can be more of an issue than the landing

Agree with that from experience. Taxiing a DC3 in a crosswind could cause the rudder to slam to one side and damage it. The rudder pedals were quite small while the rudder was huge and it was difficult to stop the rudder from flapping. It was a standard technique to centralise the rudder and quickly engage the autopilot which then held the rudder central while taxiing.

This technique caused this writer momentary grief during a DC3 landing in gusty crosswind conditions. The captain was acting as support pilot while he gave me the landing. We had touched down smoothly when a gust caused the DC3 to swing strongly left while the tail was still in the air.

I tried to apply corrective rudder only to discover both pedals had apparently jammed central. With difficulty I stopped the swing by hard jabs on the right brake which in turn caused the landing gear horn to momentarily sound. After I got the tail on the ground while still using intermittent jabs of brake and we slowed to 10 knots or so, I reached down to engage the autopilot only to find to my surprise it was already engaged; yet I had not touched it.

The captain then rather sheepishly admitted he had engaged the autopilot immediately after touch down without telling me:mad: His rationale being he thought it would stop the rudder from flapping in the crosswind once we were at taxi speed. Words failed me..

[Rosevidney1]

And THAT is character forming!:mad:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Closest I got to putting the Chippy on its nose (not easy as it's not a tail-light tail dragger) was on the apron one windy day. I had a couple of notches of brake set for taxying and turned downwind. I could tell from the way the stick wanted to go to either full back or full forward that the elevator, despite prop wash, was experiencing a reversed airflow due the very strong tailwind so I let it rest stick forward (elevator down, which is not the usual elevator position for taxying in a taildragger), hand on stick but not having to hold it forward (the tail wind onto the top surface of the down-elevator did that).

There was a sudden gust increasing the strength of the tailwind and before I could prevent it the rudder blew hard over to the left, applying full left brake. I felt the tail rise but as I instantly centred the rudder (and held it central with hard foot pressure on both pedals), while instinctively closing the throttle, and resisted the temptation to pull the stick back, the tail thankfully dropped back onto the tail wheel.

I asked myself afterwards what I'd have done if the tail had continued to rise, as it might have done once the tail was high enough off the ground to reduce the power of the tailwind on the elevator top surface. I like to think I'd have had the wit to apply full power and full back stick, but fear of burying the prop into the concrete apron at full power might have made me hesitate to do that!

[megan]

elevator down, which is not the usual elevator position for taxying in a taildraggerSSD, just out of interest, had you been taught the use of controls when taxiing with the wind coming from any particular point of the compass?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

SSD, just out of interest, had you been taught the use of controls when taxiing with the wind coming from any particular point of the compass?

Oh yes! But in a tail dragger you have to take into account wind strength in a tailwind. If it's a very light tailwind the prop wash over the elevator will be more than the tail wind and forward stick can raise the tail.

As I said, you can judge whether that's the case by the 'feel' of the elevator in the stick.

[Warmtoast]

Not sure why this Tiger Moth ended up on it's back (too much wind from the wrong direction perhaps?). Photographed by me at 5 FTS RAF Thornhill, S. Rhodesia in late 1951.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/TigerMothOops_zpsf3c9f8b6.jpg

[Dave Hadfield]

Are you asking for yourself? If you're new to a Tiger, or new to taildraggers in general, make your limit about 5 kts crosswind component. Pick nice days only until you get 20 hours or so in, and you are feeling connected with the aeroplane.


I've flown the 82A, the 82C, and the 83, to the tune of about 500 hours. Now I am quite careful about crosswinds, but it depends on the aeroplane and the landing surface, and the consequences if a groundloop should happen. So, no hard answer.


A 82A with a tailskid, on grass, is actually pretty good once you get comfortable -- but not too comfortable! 10 kts crosswind component is doable. If it gets to 15 kts you quit or land somewhere else, or land on a tangent to the runway direction -- you cheat or give up.


Pavement is your enemy with these aircraft. In Canada there was a great deal of training done in 82Cs during WWII on the BCATP "triangle" layout fields, but what is not generally known is that if the crosswind got uncomfortable, they just used the grass of the infield. (I did this myself not too long ago while hopping rides with Air Cadets, at CYSN, ON.)


If it gets away from the pilot, a slow-speed groundloop on grass in a Tiger is not that big a deal as long as it doesn't hit something solid. It tends to skid. But a groundloop on pavement breaks things.


Dave

[Genghis the Engineer]

I work with a team here in the UK with a similar problem. The common view is that a crosswind limit wasn't published when the Pilots Notes were written because the airfields of the time were all grass and so take off and landing were in to wind as required. Our lot use 10kts as a ballpark and increase that with experience and the agreement of the CFI.

Not a type I have anything to do with, and the place I am only an occasional impressed spectator who happens to know a few of the pilots, but...

If I was looking for a serious answer to that question, I think I'd ask it at Shuttleworth. Given that the majority of their pilots are Test Pilots, and the Tiger Moth is one of their standard types, I think that they could provide you with a pretty authoritative answer between them, and enjoy coming up with it.

G

[4forward8back]

My deep dark memory says 10MPH from the left and 7MPH from theright. But try as I have, I can't find the reference.


As others have said, it's not an aircraft that likes crosswind. Anything over about 5 knots requires you really pay attention. Infact, with that narrow gear, high CoG, large wing area, light weight, small wingtip clearance and abysmal aileron authority, you'd think it was designed to be poor!


Take off is not so critical as you can get the tail up high enough very early in the take-off roll to keep the wings at near zero lift andshe has excellent rudder authority. Landings are a different story...


I have landed in the 10-12kt range, but I was very currenton type at the time (and possibly a bit silly). In those conditions, a wheeler is the only option and once the tail drops it is in the fate ofthe Gods as to whether the upwind wing will lift.


Centaurus, I have a lot of Tiger Moth documentation(official, unofficial and in-between). PM me an email address and I'll send itover. I believe we are in a similar part of the world, should you need anyinfo/assistance I'm happy to help. I was once very familiar with the type andknow those who still are.


Regards,
[550hrs, 1000+ landings on type]