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View Full Version : An important MSG to my fellow JETCONNECT pilots.


disconnect2017
29th Dec 2017, 22:26
Firstly, I would like to thank the JC Council for their hard work and dedication to this CEA and their fellow NZ ALPA members. Nothing in this letter is directed at the Council or the effort they have put into reaching this Draft agreement.

However, I don’t believe that now is the time for JC pilots to sign a CEA, and I’m left wondering why NZ ALPA think we should.

Jetconnect Pilot operations are about to undergo a massive change, the exact nature of which is yet to be determined, as I understand that the Australian & International Pilot Association (AIPA) have stated they are against the restructuring as it has been proposed.

Because of this uncertainty, before the exact nature of operational changes have come to light, I don’t think there should be any rush to sign a CEA. Locking into a CEA means that Jetconnect pilots will be in a weak industrial position. The option of industrial action will not be available if we do not agree with the future changes to the organisation imposed by the Company.

For this reason, I cannot support this CEA and urge my fellow Jetconnect Pilots to think about the ramifications of prematurely signing.

In addition to this, I also believe this CEA is not worthy of endorsement.

This CEA is a reflection of Jetconnect pilots continually undervaluing themselves, the Airline they represent and the premium service/product they provide, particularly when the proposed changes bring us so close into the fold of Mainline Qantas for all intents and purposes except for pay and conditions.
This isn’t a matter of “remaining competitive on the Tasman” but rather a systematic and intentional degrading of pilot conditions by Qantas management. The responsibility falls upon us to protect this industry for both ourselves and for future pilots.

My reasons for not supporting this CEA are as follows:

Proposed dates of CEA
Jetconnect’s last CEA covered a period of 3 years over the dates of 18th April 2013 until the 17th April 2016. It would make sense that the following CEA covered a period of 3 years over the dates 18th April 2016 until 17th April 2019. But the draft CEA doesn’t end until April 2020. So instead of bargaining for better conditions in 2019, the Pilot group will be penalised a year to do so, and why? Because the Company didn’t act in good faith, they didn’t resolve the negotiations in a timely fashion? If we sign this CEA we are once again rewarding the Company for mistreating the CEA process and their pilot group.

3.2 Training Bond
3.2.2 An actual figure needs to be specified for the Training bond or transparency of the actual costs involved made available to the Pilot. This will prevent the Company from over bonding Pilots in a means to retain them through financial hardship.


4.4 Redundancy
4.4.10 Company notice period to the Pilot needs to be increased to 3 months, on par to the requirement changes for Pilots to give the Company 3 months’ notice in clause 3.3.1.

7 Air Data Recorders
7.2 (b) Education
(c) Training
These clauses either need to be defined or removed, as they’re an avenue for punitive action against a pilot or pilots and can lead to an environment of attempted fuel savings over safety.

9.4.3 Contactability
A clause added that the Company cannot attempt to relay a message to a pilot in a no contact period through any means, including other pilots or the person’s Next of Kin.

11 Remuneration
Between the dates of 26th October 2016 (the date the last pay rise should coincide with) until the end of this proposed CEA of 26th April 2020, the Pilot group will receive a 5% increase to wages, equivalent to 1.4% annually. The 18 month pay freeze should not have taken away an entitlement to a 2.5% pay rise during this time, simply delayed its introduction until after the pay freeze. This is shown in the Australian Services Union’s Enterprise Bargaining Agreement (EBA), which will see pay rises of 7.5% introduced between 2018 and mid-2020 as a result of undertaking the pay freeze and which covers a period from between July 2016 to July 2020.

11.2 Annual Base Pay
We are told that we have to remain competitive across the Tasman and that we need to remain on “local conditions”. In comparison to Jetstar and Virgin, we are still far below the industry standard and local conditions. This isn’t a matter of remaining competitive but the Company eroding conditions to the greatest extent they can.

As an example, current FO wages will be compared;

VANZ. Jetstar Jetconnect
L1. 103950. 99425. 97454
L2. 112217. XXXXXX 108072
L2. 120606. 107625 110531

VANZ don’t get flying credit for any ground training duties and most likely explains the level of their base pay, I’m unsure if they are paid any company bonuses.

Jetstar get flying credits for ground training duties and they get paid incentive company bonuses. Although Jetstar’s base pay looks lower, their ability to earn more is increased.

Jetconnect don’t get flying credits for ground training duties and don’t get paid company bonuses like Jetstar.

Entry First Officers
An introduction of an ‘Entry First Officer’ wage is setting a new and lower precedent in the industry. Jetstar have a Junior First Officer wage for Cadets who have completed a Cadetship and lack the experience to hold an ATPL.

Training Salary
11.2.5.1 For pilots not employed as Entry FOs, the training wage will cost these pilots an additional $6800 in lost wages over a 3-month period. If the company is unable to retain pilots, the company should bear the cost of replacing them. New pilots will be bonded for 3 years, to a currently unspecified amount that is supposed to cover training costs, therefore they should be paid as full pilots from day one of joining.

11.3 Incentive Flight Pay
Paxing Credits
50% Paxing credit is an industry standard and a non-negotiable for me. (QF long haul receive 100%). Variations to rosters caused by this change can be mitigated through shift swaps, bidding or preferences. Once the CEA is signed we can’t get these credits and may never be able to bargain for their introduction again.

Credits for Ground duties
An introduction for credits during ground courses, simulators and online courses, in line with the Jetstar CEA or dare I suggest QF mainline? Or, an increase to overall salary in line with Virgin NZ.

13.3 Meal and Breaks
13.3.1.1 “Reasonable cost” needs to be defined to protect employees against possible punitive action in regards to reimbursement.

13.3.2.3 After the Company admitted that Pilots were not receiving this entitlement, they apparently allocated an extra $350,000 towards the CEA. This roughly equates to $1458 per pilot annually in added benefits to the CEA. Jetstar, with their far superior benefits also receive an annual payment of $3,500 for Captains and $2,000 for First Officers in lieu of meal breaks. To date, I have not heard any discussion about backpay for entitlements not received.

14.4 Reminbursing Allowances
14.4 Communication Allowance
Slight increase to accurately reflect what members pay to maintain a constant method of contact with the Company.

16.2 Loss of Licence
16.2.1.1 Without the $1200 Company input and change to 1% of income, loss of licence cover through the MBF or private insurance will cost FOs more money, since the highest paid FO in this CEA will be entitled to only $1161. This effectively forces an FO onto the new company scheme, of which we have not seen any details about.

This change is in line with Jetstar entitlements but without comparing the Companies own schemes, since this information is currently unavailable. Virgin Pilots receive the higher of $2665 or 1.5% of income.

16.2.1.3 Jetconnect Licence Insurance Scheme
The terms and conditions of this scheme need to be made available to members, we may be unknowingly subjecting members to risk if this scheme does not favour the employee. Something that cannot be decided until the details are made public.

Adherence of the Current Heads of Agreement
Clause 2.2 in the current HoA states that road transport be:
Safe- seat belts for every passenger seat, no large crew bags in the passenger compartment unless they are properly restrained, no vehicle defects, driven within the law.

Despite the Park’n’Ride not fulfilling these requirements, the Union or Company have done nothing to enforce this clause which is repeated in the new HoA. Without adherence to a single clause, renders the rest of the HoA worthless.

Seniority Number
A seniority number be granted within Mainline Qantas, in line with Virgin NZ’s CEA. AIPA has stated that they would be happy for Jetconnect Pilots go to the bottom of the seniority list and be base frozen for a selected amount of time, as this would have minimal effect on current progression within Mainline.




All these points were found in the 45-60min period I looked over the CEA, so I am sure there are points I have missed out on.



Please encourage other JC pilots to read this, not agreeing is fine, ignorance isn't.

Derfred
30th Dec 2017, 15:05
Nicely worded. Now is the time for you guys to improve your T&C's.

Hawkeye787
30th Dec 2017, 18:07
NZALPA think we should sign it up because they are IR experts. This is the same quality union that successfully prevented pilots going on the skill shortages list. They know what they are doing.

If ALPA say yes I would trust them, I don't believe staying strong is saying no. Being strong might be getting this improved deal across the line to give everyone certainty before Qantas short haul goes up for bargaining in mid 2018 . The points you raise are for the most part quite minor and quite frankly the captains at jetconnect are fearing for their jobs. Becoming a AIPA pawn is a dangerous prospect.

SandyPalms
30th Dec 2017, 20:34
How would Jetconnect pilots become AIPA pawns if they don’t lock themselves into an agreement? The ideal solution is to have Jetconnect pilots integrated into mainline with some sort of Integration agreement. Not sure how that could be a bad thing for anybody. NZALPA of course would then lose 120 sets of contributions, which may or may not be the motivation behind their support of this agreement.

engine out
30th Dec 2017, 21:20
All great points. It is important for Jetconnect to improve conditions and not let the puppet masters in Mascot win. On a side bar (same in most awards I’ve seen) why do Captains need more in meal allowances/DTA than FO’s, do they eat more? Anyway I hope the rest of the JC pilots also feel the same way.

havick
30th Dec 2017, 21:28
All great points. It is important for Jetconnect to improve conditions and not let the puppet masters in Mascot win. On a side bar (same in most awards I’ve seen) why do Captains need more in meal allowances/DTA than FO’s, do they eat more? Anyway I hope the rest of the JC pilots also feel the same way.

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the different meal rates between FO and CA.

maggot
30th Dec 2017, 21:34
Cause el capo is meant to buy ya coffee and a beer

73qanda
30th Dec 2017, 22:51
NZ Employment law is changing early in the new year in favour of employees. One of the changes removes a companies ability to walk away from/stall the bargaining process.
I haven’t checked that info myself but was told that by someone who is normally correct about these things. He seemed to think that other changes were possible surrounding rest breaks.
Motivation?

AerocatS2A
31st Dec 2017, 01:13
All great points. It is important for Jetconnect to improve conditions and not let the puppet masters in Mascot win. On a side bar (same in most awards I’ve seen) why do Captains need more in meal allowances/DTA than FO’s, do they eat more? Anyway I hope the rest of the JC pilots also feel the same way.

Probably to do with the Australian Tax Office and their maximum allowance for tax free meal reimbursements without needing receipts. These allowances are tied to income.

maggot
31st Dec 2017, 01:41
Probably to do with the Australian Tax Office and their maximum allowance for tax free meal reimbursements without needing receipts. These allowances are tied to income.

Nah thats just for claiming. The allowance paid is just what's negotiated

Awol57
31st Dec 2017, 01:48
Nah thats just for claiming. The allowance paid is just what's negotiated

We are paid TA aligned with our salary in AsA.

https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?DocID=TXD/TD201719/NAT/ATO/00001

AerocatS2A
31st Dec 2017, 02:26
Nah thats just for claiming. The allowance paid is just what's negotiated

Yes that's correct, however some companies simplify things by paying you the maximum amount allowed by the ATO. This may result in higher meal allowances paid to the pilots with the higher salaries.

AerocatS2A
31st Dec 2017, 02:27
What has the ATO to do with it? They are based in NZ.

It was a general question not specific to Jetconnect. To clarify, I was responding to the "same in most awards I've seen" bit.

Blitzkrieger
31st Dec 2017, 05:40
Another peripheral operator having an agreement rushed through before a major change to the business?

Beer Baron
31st Dec 2017, 07:09
Being strong might be getting this improved deal across the line to give everyone certainty before Qantas short haul goes up for bargaining in mid 2018
So what part of the new contract protects JetConnect pilot’s jobs? Being the lowest paid norrow body jet operators in NZ?

Is this an admirable trait to negotiate in a contract, being paid less than everyone else so the company doesn’t sack you? But still get no actual guarantee of your job.

On Guard
31st Dec 2017, 07:16
Virgin get 4.5hrs credit per ground duty. Why not sign 18mth contract then see how cookie crumbles.

Steve Zissou
31st Dec 2017, 18:33
So what part of the new contract protects JetConnect pilot’s jobs? Being the lowest paid norrow body jet operators in NZ?

Is this an admirable trait to negotiate in a contract, being paid less than everyone else so the company doesn’t sack you? But still get no actual guarantee of your job.

Exactly. What is happening here?

73qanda
31st Dec 2017, 19:44
Nothing that I can see. The proposed CEA gives 8 weeks pay.
The comparison would be Jetstar who get 16 weeks.

Ollie Onion
1st Jan 2018, 03:07
Look, the true damage for Jetconnect was done at the last contract negotiation. I remember chatting to a Jetconnect pilot/negotiator in 2013ish when both Jetstar and Jetconnect were in CEA negotiations and the Jetstar pilots had just served a notice for industrial action against Jetstar to 'further' their CEA. The Jetconnect guy told me that they were going to accept absolutely minimal improvements as 'now is not the time to ask for money due to Qantas being in such a bad position'. Now you are trying to play catchup, even though Qantas is doing well you are getting the whole 'must be within the pay freeze and overall 3%' line. The CEA that Jetstar NZ landed in 2013 was a massive improvement and lept them way ahead of Jetconnect so this time around they just took the payfreeze and the 3% overall along with winning in the Supreme Court over meal breaks secured an additional payment and ongoing compensation leading Jetstar to edge even further ahead. How you could accept anything less than a group 'low cost' carrier based in the same country is beyond me.

normanton
1st Jan 2018, 11:17
I agree with the OP on most points, except one.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think you are entitled to a mainline seniority number?

Jetstar / Cobham / Network / Qlink pilots don't, so why should you?

If you want a mainline seniority number, go jump through the HR process like all the rest of us had to do.

balance
1st Jan 2018, 21:17
Was just about to ask the same question as normanton.

Please justify why on earth you think you should have a mainline seniority number? I'm really interested. And somewhat annoyed by such an entitled attitude. But please, go ahead?

bythenumbers
2nd Jan 2018, 03:25
I’m by no means advocating that Jetconnect pilots must be giving a seniority number.... however as you mention Qlink Cobham Jetstar Network which of those will shortly be operating under the QF AOC in an offshore base?

I don’t see a sense of entitlement from the OP; more that he/she can see what QF IR is really up to and uniting a pilot group is one of the steps into giving them the middle finger.

One of the other steps is voting no to this sub standard contract.

bythenumbers
2nd Jan 2018, 03:39
... The points you raise are for the most part quite minor and quite frankly the captains at jetconnect are fearing for their jobs. Becoming a AIPA pawn is a dangerous prospect.

Minor points summed up are not minor at all. Have you ever heard of death by a thousand cuts?

I haven’t met anyone at Jetconnect fearing for their job unless they’re one the few worried about not passing a CASA medical or a QFA line check.

Derfred
2nd Jan 2018, 07:54
I agree with the OP on most points, except one.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think you are entitled to a mainline seniority number?

Jetstar / Cobham / Network / Qlink pilots don't, so why should you?

If you want a mainline seniority number, go jump through the HR process like all the rest of us had to do.

This kind of attitude is why pilots continue to be out-manoeuvred.

"I didn't get one so why should you?"

It's been done before, and it can be done again, with the agreement of the various parties. To shoot for it in an EBA would be very wise, especially with current pilot shortage in the group, and the bleed of JC pilots to other airlines.

In fact, if I were a JC pilot, I'd be pushing my reps to contact AIPA to organise a coordinated campaign to make that happen. I'm sure AIPA would prefer them to be flying VH jets under the QF AOC under mainline T&C's with a mainline seniority number. I'm sure those guys would too. Delaying the CEA won't affect their job security one iota.

Lowly FO
4th Jan 2018, 00:59
I hear the base meetings for JC were today and yesterday. Does anyone who was there care to share how it went? What was the mood like amongst the group?

JPJP
4th Jan 2018, 03:21
Was just about to ask the same question as normanton.

Please justify why on earth you think you should have a mainline seniority number? I'm really interested. And somewhat annoyed by such an entitled attitude. But please, go ahead?

Whipsaw and Leverage.

Respectfully - Perhaps you should be asking yourselves (as a group) what you would lose if they were stapled to the bottom of your seniority list ? Then ask yourself why the Qantas group enjoys outsourcing its flying to separate seniority lists on significantly lower terms. Qantas IR have a hundred reasons to like it. Ninety nine percent of those reasons should make you not like it. The remaining one percent is the sting of pride. It absolutely sucks to have anyone given something that you worked very hard for. But in the cold hard light of day, pride is not a good reason to give up that kind of IR leverage.

My humble opinion, having seen both sides of that coin.

Angle of Attack
4th Jan 2018, 06:01
The best outcome is for JC pilots and QF mainline pilots is for them to go on the mainline seniority list and be on QF shorthaul terms and conditions. OK I’m hearing you regarding they haven’t gone through the HR shambles to be accepted by Qantas, but hey at the end of the day they are flying passengers who booked Qantas between Australia and New Zealand. Yes I know Cobham and Network do as well, but we have to make a start with the JC pilots. Because the opportunity is there. And if I was in JC right now there would be no way I would vote up any agreement that doesn’t give at least 5% plus per year pay rise. QF are desperately short of crew and they need you! Good luck to all you JC crew regardless of the outcome.

Hawkeye787
4th Jan 2018, 08:00
My understanding is that the bargaining team gave secured more then 5% year on year when time is factored in the 'value'. Atleast that's how it was sold at base meetings.

morno
4th Jan 2018, 08:59
Ohh the Qantas sense of entitlement is coming out again. For gods sake fellas, you’ll lose nothing.

balance
4th Jan 2018, 16:41
Whipsaw and Leverage.

Respectfully - Perhaps you should be asking yourselves (as a group) what you would lose if they were stapled to the bottom of your seniority list ? Then ask yourself why the Qantas group enjoys outsourcing its flying to separate seniority lists on significantly lower terms. Qantas IR have a hundred reasons to like it. Ninety nine percent of those reasons should make you not like it. The remaining one percent is the sting of pride. It absolutely sucks to have anyone given something that you worked very hard for. But in the cold hard light of day, pride is not a good reason to give up that kind of IR leverage.

My humble opinion, having seen both sides of that coin.

And respectfully right back again - Question asked "what do we have to lose?" The answer is long fought for pay and conditions of employment. If we continue down this track of continual compromise, then as a pilot group we are continuing the race to the bottom. We continue to dilute our worth as an industry.

If you can't see this, then woe betide our industry. Don't mistake my opinion for "pride", I don't work for the red rat anymore. This allows me to view the situation that has been developing for the past 20 years pretty objectively.

balance
4th Jan 2018, 16:43
Ohh the Qantas sense of entitlement is coming out again. For gods sake fellas, you’ll lose nothing.

Yep, pretty sure that GD said that when he and AJ introduced Jetstar. And it has been a race downhill since then. On that basis I'm sure you will forgive my cynicism.

framer
4th Jan 2018, 18:54
The race to the bottom requires a segmented and fractured pilot body.
Every step that supports this state continues the race to the bottom.
Every step that creates a bigger, stronger, less fragmented pilot body is a blow to the race to the bottom.
I don’t care if they go on the list or not but if I was a QF pilot I sure would be pushing for it.
balance, I think you have it backwards.
If you can't see this, then woe betide our industry.
Well, there are a fair few smart guys and girls that think putting them on the bottom of the list is beneficial for QF pilots long term. Woe is me.

balance
4th Jan 2018, 20:26
The race to the bottom requires a segmented and fractured pilot body.
Every step that supports this state continues the race to the bottom.
Every step that creates a bigger, stronger, less fragmented pilot body is a blow to the race to the bottom.
I don’t care if they go on the list or not but if I was a QF pilot I sure would be pushing for it.
balance, I think you have it backwards.

Well, there are a fair few smart guys and girls that think putting them on the bottom of the list is beneficial for QF pilots long term. Woe is me.

Well, a couple things, framer. One - it makes a big fat zero difference to me these days. I'm just an observer now, and a fairly appalled one at that. So, no "woe is me".

The bigger, stronger, less fragmented body you speak of? Yeah, sure. Lets give the Gympie North Ultralight Club QF seniority numbers, shall we?

Your concept of 'bigger, stronger, less fragmented" is an unachievable Nirvana. And THAT is exactly why AJ and Oldmeadow are winning this war, and exactly why the pilot game is in a spiral to the bottom.

You might think I have it backwards, frankly I couldn't care less what you think. I've watched things spiral for the past 20 years, and I can't see things changing anytime soon. Especially with that attitude.

framer
4th Jan 2018, 20:55
I've watched things spiral for the past 20 years, and I can't see things changing anytime soon. Especially with that attitude.
I’ve watched things spiral for the last twenty as well, but I can see things changing mainly because I see an opportunity to be slightly more united as a pilot group than we have been for decades. Tsk tsk what a silly attitude.
PS, although your example of the Gympie North Ultralight club was banal it’s worth considering what would happen if a small move in that direction was made. Would T’s and C’s improve if AIPA had more bargaining power or would they get worse?

balance
4th Jan 2018, 21:41
I’ve watched things spiral for the last twenty as well, but I can see things changing mainly because I see an opportunity to be slightly more united as a pilot group than we have been for decades. Tsk tsk what a silly attitude.
PS, although your example of the Gympie North Ultralight club was banal it’s worth considering what would happen if a small move in that direction was made. Would T’s and C’s improve if AIPA had more bargaining power or would they get worse?

Banal the example might have been, but T's and C's cannot improve whilst this happens. It is dilution of the product, pure and simple. Pilots in Australia WILL NEVER form a common entity, it's just not in their nature. Therefore they will be easy prey for the predator.

At least whilst the QF guys were at the "top of the food chain" as it were, there was a standard set, a measuring stick. Now that measuring stick is being filed away, and it is getting smaller by the day. Each time a new company with lesser T's and C's is acquired, each time someone else demands to be included on the QF seniority list, each time a fracture appears, the executives giggle with glee, and give themselves a mouth watering bonus.

And I don't think there is a way to stop it. :\

ElZilcho
4th Jan 2018, 21:53
The bigger, stronger, less fragmented body you speak of? Yeah, sure. Lets give the Gympie North Ultralight Club QF seniority numbers, shall we?


What a load of :mad:. Ever heard of a Straw man? Go on, have a google :ugh:

I don't have a dog in this race either, but some of the rubbish thrown around in this thread begs addressing.

If JC were to remain on their NZ AOC, with ZK Rego'd Aircraft then there is absolutely no valid argument to give them a QF Seniority number. But that's not whats happening, is it? JC are getting VH tails....

So as a Collective Pilot group, what's the best outcome? No doubt, bringing the JC operation back into Mainline... QANTAS Planes, QANTAS Pilots and all that Jazz. :ok: But it's already been pointed out (possibly in another thread) that the QF 737 operation is in dire need of crew, and could not possibly take over the Tasman.... hrmmm, wonder where they could find some 737 qualified Pilots to do the job? :D

What's that? They haven't jumped through the same HR hoops as other QF Pilots? Well then, how many QF Pilots have gone through the Current recruitment process? Should they all be asked to re-interview for their positions after 30+ years in the Airline because HR didn't even exist back in their day? Give me a break. We all despise the modern day HR process... why give it any validation now?

Give the JC Pilots a QF Sim ride along with a Route check (would be a CASA requirement anyway with the change of AOC) and when they're successful, throw them on the bottom of the QF list.

Honestly, from where I'm sitting, this is the only (and best) opportunity to shift the jobs back into Mainline. It's already been established that QF cannot afford to lose the JC Pilots at this time, so any other scenario which sees JC exist as a separate entity sets a precedent for foreign pilots flying VH, QF tails.

-edit-

Each time a new company with lesser T's and C's is acquired, each time someone else demands to be included on the QF seniority list, each time a fracture appears, the executives giggle with glee, and give themselves a mouth watering bonus.

And I don't think there is a way to stop it.

What's the lesser evil? Absorbing that company into the fold, or allowing it to exist on it's own, to be used as a bargaining threat every CEA? Freedom was incorporated into Air NZ and now it's nothing more than a bad memory. Sure there's a few hurt feelings and the odd stone got thrown, but that's behind us now. Think big picture, rather than focusing (with spite) on a handful of pilots who might happen to be in the right place at the right time and benefit from a merger.

mohikan
4th Jan 2018, 22:23
There is 100K AUD difference in pay between a Jetconnect 737 Captain and a Mainline one.

This gives the Jetconnect pilots massive leverage in current CEA negotiations.

The company of course doesn't want JC pilots to realise this, hence the sudden rush to get a deal done

Jetconnect is an even more powerful industrial wedge against mainline now its integrated

The BS assurances from the company that it won't be used to extract future concessions from the mainline 737 group are laughable. Oldmeadow is deeply involved again and given the massive additional bonuses on offer flight ops management and higher simply wont be able to help themselves.

Qantas iis n the global pilot market as we speak looking for Jetconnect FOs and direct entry Captains. There will be massive expansion of the Jetconnect operation in the next few years - keep in mind that whilst Jetconnect cannot operate domestically in Australia, it can do international services. So SYD-DPS, MEL-DPS and BNE-POM-BNE are there for the taking for you.

My message to the JC pilots is simple - no need to rush signing anything.

For the first time in your history you have bargaining power because you are not only the cheapest B737 pilots in the first world, you are also a powerful industrial weapon to be used against other group pilots.

Don't fall for their bluff this time.

balance
4th Jan 2018, 22:30
What a load of :mad:. Ever heard of a Straw man? Go on, have a google :ugh:

I don't have a dog in this race either, but some of the rubbish thrown around in this thread begs addressing.

If JC were to remain on their NZ AOC, with ZK Rego'd Aircraft then there is absolutely no valid argument to give them a QF Seniority number. But that's not whats happening, is it? JC are getting VH tails....

So as a Collective Pilot group, what's the best outcome? No doubt, bringing the JC operation back into Mainline... QANTAS Planes, QANTAS Pilots and all that Jazz. :ok: But it's already been pointed out (possibly in another thread) that the QF 737 operation is in dire need of crew, and could not possibly take over the Tasman.... hrmmm, wonder where they could find some 737 qualified Pilots to do the job? :D

What's that? They haven't jumped through the same HR hoops as other QF Pilots? Well then, how many QF Pilots have gone through the Current recruitment process? Should they all be asked to re-interview for their positions after 30+ years in the Airline because HR didn't even exist back in their day? Give me a break. We all despise the modern day HR process... why give it any validation now?

Give the JC Pilots a QF Sim ride along with a Route check (would be a CASA requirement anyway with the change of AOC) and when they're successful, throw them on the bottom of the QF list.

Honestly, from where I'm sitting, this is the only (and best) opportunity to shift the jobs back into Mainline. It's already been established that QF cannot afford to lose the JC Pilots at this time, so any other scenario which sees JC exist as a separate entity sets a precedent for foreign pilots flying VH, QF tails.

What's the lesser evil? Absorbing that company into the fold, or allowing it to exist on it's own, to be used as a bargaining threat every CEA? Freedom was incorporated into Air NZ and now it's nothing more than a bad memory. Sure there's a few hurt feelings and the odd stone got thrown, but that's behind us now. Think big picture, rather than focusing (with spite) on a handful of pilots who might happen to be in the right place at the right time and benefit from a merger.

Honestly, you gotta laugh sometimes at people on PPrune. The irony of someone arrogantly telling you you're using the straw man argument, then using the straw man argument themselves! Hilarious!

Mate, I know a bunch of really good pilots that are on the QF hold file right now. They've passed the testing, they've earned the right. Yet a bunch of guys who would gladly undercut their grandmother demand that THEY be given that right instead?

Why give the current HR process validation now? Because it is all we've got. Surely you don't expect they will just open the floodgates and let any Joe in?

I've no idea from where you're sitting, but it doesn't sound like you were / are in mainline, nor is it any of my business. I'd bet vital parts of my anatomy, if you were on the QF hold file you'd be a bit p1ssed.

You tell me to think big picture, and not worry about a handful of pilots from JC? Okies, given that you are prone to lecturing me about things, how about you google the word precedent? Because each handful of pilots that get a seniority number = precedent. It's JC today, Gympie Ultralight Club tomorrow? Where does it end? The tolerance of one creates precedent.

The best outcome? Well, there's no good outcome unless you are a CEO or a HR manager, but to my mind giving the JC guys a QF seniority number is the thin end of the wedge and will realize far worse results.

And my friend, if you think what I say is :mad:, well I just don't care. This has been happening for a long time now, it is still happening, and just because you say :mad:, doesn't detract from the fact that it is happening. Maybe you should google the ostrich "head in the sand" concept too...

Have a nice day! :ok:

help me jebus
4th Jan 2018, 22:43
Post edited

ElZilcho
4th Jan 2018, 22:58
Where'e my Straw man Balance?

You keep mentioning the Gympie Ultralight Club, so tell me, what's their association to QF? Are they wearing QF uniforms, flying QANTAS branded 737's and about to change AOC's onto the VH register? Didn't think so. JC is a unique operation in the QF group.

You've got mates on the hold file? Congratulations. We've all got mates on a hold file somewhere. Mate of mine sat on the hold file at Air NZ for nearly 7 years. Welcome to Aviation.

Perhaps when your mates finally get a start at QF, they would rejoice in the fact that there's another 50-60 737 Command and FO positions available due to the integration of a group Airline. Because they'll get start with QF regardless of what happens with JC.

This is the short-sightedness I'm referring to. You're so focused on your mates with a "Yes" letter and angst towards JC that you've lost all sight of the bigger picture.

If JC remains a separate entity those jobs are forever lost to mainline Pilots. Worse still, the VH rego opens up more routes for them ex Australia, potentially taking MORE positions away from Mainline (which will hurt your mates careers in mainline).

As for what seat I'm sitting in? Well it's a ZK registered A320 and I'm thankful it's not yellow with Freedomair.com plastered on the side.

-Edit-

Actually Balance, I should ask, what's your desired outcome here? You're clearly opposed to JC getting put on the Mainline seniority list so what's your alternative? Keep them separate? Sack them all?

balance
4th Jan 2018, 23:22
Zilcho, I suggest you either re-read your accusatory post, or Google straw man yourself, because you're obviously having a few problems there...

The Gympie Ultralight Club has no association with Qantas. Yet. But I hear that AJ is eyeing them closely. He believes they would be good candidates to undercut those pesky JC guys that are asking too much. You get my point now, or are you just gonna keep playing dumb?

You mention a mate that was on hold with Air NZ for 7 years? Tell me, was he kept there because others undercut him? So I ask you, so what about your mate?

They may get a start at QF, but it will 50 - 60 numbers lower, and the consequences to that are obvious.

You say I have angst towards JC pilots? How do you figure that? I have no angst towards them? THAT my friend, is a straw man argument. You throw out something that I didn't say, and expect me to argue it? Seriously? Good grief. I'm not short sighted, nor am I focused on mates with a Yes letter. Sorry fella, that little gem doesn't work at all. By saying something ridiculous like that, you make it clear you have no concept of what I am saying. Which doesn't phase me at all by the way...

Stop being a smart ar$e and start listening to some who have been around for a while. You mention that you are sitting in an A320, but I note you didn't say LHS, which you would be quick to point out if you were.

Anyhoo, I have no interest in continuing this. It really doesn't mean that much to me. Enjoy your A320, dude. Airbus make a beautiful aeroplane... :-)

ElZilcho
4th Jan 2018, 23:48
Zilcho, I suggest you either re-read your accusatory post, or Google straw man yourself, because you're obviously having a few problems there...

Ok.

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

The Gympie Ultralight Club has no association with Qantas. Yet. But I hear that AJ is eyeing them closely. He believes they would be good candidates to undercut those pesky JC guys that are asking too much. You get my point now, or are you just gonna keep playing dumb?

Sounds like a Straw Man argument to me.



You mention a mate that was on hold with Air NZ for 7 years? Tell me, was he kept there because others undercut him? So I ask you, so what about your mate?

They may get a start at QF, but it will 50 - 60 numbers lower, and the consequences to that are obvious.

Like I said, short sighted. You're worried about your mates number (and yes, I know it's important), but how many "slots" would your mates lose if QF management decided to grow JC with the VH tails? As someone else has already pointed out, JC might not be able to do Domestic, but a VH tail gives them access to more than just the Tasman.

As for "undercutting" (again, focused on the short term), whose to say AIPA don't negotiate for JC to get placed on bottom of the list below those on the active hold file? How do you know your mates wont get a start before any of this even happens?!

You say I have angst towards JC pilots? How do you figure that? I have no angst towards them? THAT my friend, is a straw man argument. You throw out something that I didn't say, and expect me to argue it?

Yet a bunch of guys who would gladly undercut their grandmother demand that THEY be given that right instead?

Undercutting their Grandmothers? Doesn't sound like you hold them in very high regard now does it?

Seriously? Good grief. I'm not short sighted, nor am I focused on mates with a Yes letter. Sorry fella, that little gem doesn't work at all. By saying something ridiculous like that, you make it clear you have no concept of what I am saying. Which doesn't phase me at all by the way...

Every response you've made has focused on mates seniority. You've failed to address how JC going onto the VH register could be managed while protecting the entire QF Pilot group.


Stop being a smart ar$e and start listening to some who have been around for a while. You mention that you are sitting in an A320, but I note you didn't say LHS, which you would be quick to point out if you were.

No, I am not in the LHS (I didn't realize we were measuring). I'm at a Legacy Carrier and it's not my first rodeo. Hopefully not long to go now, although the RHS of a 787 is looking rather appealing.

I guess you missed my subtle hints that Air NZ Pilots went through a similar situation with Freedom Air. The end result was integration rather than segregation.

Anyhoo, I have no interest in continuing this. It really doesn't mean that much to me. Enjoy your A320, dude. Airbus make a beautiful aeroplane... :-)

balance
4th Jan 2018, 23:56
Jeez, man find a life. You might want to re-think that 787. Sitting with you in an aluminum tube for 15 hours would be an absolute riot.

goodonyamate
4th Jan 2018, 23:58
As someone who actually is in QF and on the 737, id like nothing more than to see the JC pilots on the mainline list on mainline Ts & Cs. However, as I have no plans to leave the 737, sorry, you can’t be staying in those seats on a permanent basis. Give it 2-3 years, then as a mainline crew member is trained, you go where your seniority allows.

NGsim
5th Jan 2018, 00:06
As someone who actually is in QF and on the 737, id like nothing more than to see the JC pilots on the mainline list on mainline Ts & Cs. However, as I have no plans to leave the 737, sorry, you can’t be staying in those seats on a permanent basis. Give it 2-3 years, then as a mainline crew member is trained, you go where your seniority allows.

That's probably a reasonably fair outcome sir (although I still don't see the joined lists coming together personally).
It also wouldn't result in a considerable amount of movement as I can't imagine too many people wanting to uproot families to move to NZ for a command. And even less for FO spots since no more than a couple of mainline SO's took up leave without pay to go to JC (though I do acknowledge that increased T's and C's would alter that slightly).

ElZilcho
5th Jan 2018, 00:12
As someone who actually is in QF and on the 737, id like nothing more than to see the JC pilots on the mainline list on mainline Ts & Cs. However, as I have no plans to leave the 737, sorry, you can’t be staying in those seats on a permanent basis. Give it 2-3 years, then as a mainline crew member is trained, you go where your seniority allows.

That's the best all-round solution yes.

It brings the jobs back under the mainline umbrella while solving the crewing implications of absorbing the Tasman flying overnight.

Eventually the deck chairs get shuffled and everyone's where they should be.

Can only hope that's achievable.

framer
5th Jan 2018, 02:03
Perfect solution. It’s not the first time that it would have been done. Now, try to get executive management onboard........

Hawkeye787
5th Jan 2018, 03:55
Jetconnect pilots would love the t&cs of the mainline agreement but would generally not be willing to uproot their lifestyle and be based in Australia to achieve it which is the only way it would go down, no one on mainline gets to choose their basing from day 1.

The group are generally happy with NZ terms (days off aside) with a NZ basing (especially WLG).

I feel the captains are going to votes yes and the FO's with ambition to eventually work in Mainline will vote no naievely hoping the company will give them a QF seniority #. If ALPA AIPA QF and JC don't want it how can it happen?

27/09
5th Jan 2018, 06:44
Jeez, man find a life. You might want to re-think that 787. Sitting with you in an aluminum tube for 15 hours would be an absolute riot.
Actually I had the same thoughts about you. From what I've read of El Zilchos posts I think he has a rounded view on things and I could easily spend 15 hours in his company, not so sure I'd say the same about you though, happily there's very little chance of that.

By the way it's aluminium tube and the 787 is carbon fibre. :ok:

27/09
5th Jan 2018, 06:50
As someone who actually is in QF and on the 737, id like nothing more than to see the JC pilots on the mainline list on mainline Ts & Cs. However, as I have no plans to leave the 737, sorry, you can’t be staying in those seats on a permanent basis. Give it 2-3 years, then as a mainline crew member is trained, you go where your seniority allows.

The problem with that is most of the guys and gals at Jet Connect are there because they want to live in New Zealand. So unless Qantas opens New Zealand bases for other fleets going anywhere your seniority allows doesn't really come to anything.

27/09
5th Jan 2018, 07:00
Mate, I know a bunch of really good pilots that are on the QF hold file right now. They've passed the testing, they've earned the right. Yet a bunch of guys who would gladly undercut their grandmother demand that THEY be given that right instead?



I don't think you understand. These gals and gals are being paid similar money plus or minus, (sometimes they have been ahead and sometimes behind) to other flight crew employed/based in New Zealand flying similar equipment. They are under cutting nobody so don't go around slamming them.

Some of them started off when Qantas NZ picked up where Ansett left off in New Zealand. Originally they were only operating within New Zealand. If you want to blame anyone direct your venom at Qantas management, as it was they who decided to replace the Qantas brand in New Zealand with Jetstar and redirect the Qantas NZ operation to Trans Tasman operations.

By the way in case you're wondering I don't work at Jet Connect and I have never worked there but I do know some who have or still do.

HabuHunter
6th Jan 2018, 10:57
[QUOTE=Hawkeye787;10010889]Jetconnect pilots would love the t&cs of the mainline agreement but would generally not be willing to uproot their lifestyle and be based in Australia to achieve it which is the only way it would go down, no one on mainline gets to choose their basing from day 1.

The group are generally happy with NZ terms (days off aside) with a NZ basing (especially WLG).

I feel the captains are going to votes yes and the FO's with ambition to eventually work in Mainline will vote no naievely hoping the company will give them a QF seniority #. If ALPA AIPA QF and JC don't want it how can it happen?[/QUOTE



Hawkeye, you seem to be confusing the issue of the CEA vote and the proposed move to be under the QF AOC.

No one is saying vote NO to the CEA because you should hold out for QF mainline conditions.... you should vote NO because the JC pilots are the lowest paid jet pilots flying across the Tasman. You have no bidding rights, you don’t get a meal or even provided with water when you duty pax on Jetstar, you don’t get credits for paxing or ground duties including sims, you haven’t had a pay rise in years etc etc etc! Also, this CEA introduces a B scale for new F/Os which is pretty low in my opinion.
I don’t get why anyone would vote yes, it’s a crap CEA, and there’s NO down side to a NO vote. Send it back to be reworked and improved. And you have to ask yourself what’s the rush all of a sudden after 2 years of stalling.

As far as getting mainline seniority numbers and mainline terms and conditions, AIPA have stated that that is one of their prefered options to deal with the issue of JC pilots flying VH mainline aircraft. And you’ve stated yourself that the JC pilots would love the mainline T &Cs. It’s only the company that want you on “local” conditions. If you do end up in mainline, I doubt if QF would close the NZ bases, so no one will be forced to move.

ElZilcho
6th Jan 2018, 21:06
I wouldn't put too much weight on JC Pilots being unwilling to move over the ditch. Demographics have changed over the years.

Plenty of Captains are either leaving, left or weighing up their options. China might pay more than a QF S/O, but there's more to consider than money when you're mid 40's with a young family. As for the FO's, well there's plenty of Aussies at JC these days...

ExtraShot
7th Jan 2018, 02:59
you don’t get credits for paxing or ground duties including sims

I’m sorry... say WHAT?! You do work, and yes it is work, for NO PAY?

On Guard
7th Jan 2018, 12:18
Virgin Au had a similar fear about putting vanz on seniority list. FYI no pilots went across the Tasman. Now we have a few but they are pilots that are from Au and took a NZ base to get the 738. No New Zealander has moved in 5 years to the best of my knowledge, just as very few Au pilots would make a long term move to nz. NZ Pilots seniority would shortly award 738 commands in Au and still I know of no one.

Beer Baron
8th Jan 2018, 23:21
All this heated debate of where JC pilots should fit in to a combined entity is largely irrelevant at the moment. Qantas are not asking the opinion of their pilots or the unions, they have no interest in combining the groups so there is little point in getting angry with each other about it.

What us pilots do get a say in are the terms and conditions that we work under, our EBA (or the NZ equivalent). The original post was about using the unique position JC pilots find themselves in presently to get the best possible outcome.

You can effect your teams and conditions by voting accordingly. Remember a few key points;
- Qantas are making a bucket loads of money at the moment. If you can’t improve things now then you never will. The next EBA vote may coincide with a downturn.
- There is a local (QF group) and global pilot shortage. You are not easily replaceable and they need to stem the rate of attrition of JC pilots.
- Network changes brought about by EK (mostly) exiting the Tasman in March are driving this new integration. There is a firm deadline and Qantas will want your EBA locked away by the time this starts in March. This time pressure improves your bargaining position. Don’t get rushed into a deal that you think could be improved. I would expect a NO vote would very quickly be met with an improved counter offer.

I do not pretend to know your EBA conditions but even from across the ditch I can see that as pilots flying for the legacy airline side of the QF group you should not be on sub-standard conditions. You have the best possible combination of circumstances working in your favour right now as you try and improve your situation. Don’t let the opportunity pass you by.

Derfred
9th Jan 2018, 00:39
All this heated debate of where JC pilots should fit in to a combined entity is largely irrelevant at the moment. Qantas are not asking the opinion of their pilots or the unions, they have no interest in combining the groups so there is little point in getting angry with each other about it.

I don't know that I would write it off that quickly. Qantas haven't ruled anything out publicly about it. All they have done is present their "preferred option" (their words). This implies that they are aware that there are other options, and that their "preferred option" may not be accepted by all parties.

It has been said by both Qantas and AIPA that they are in talks about the subject. Qantas wouldn't been talking if they didn't have to (unless they've had an attitude change recently).

There is also a rumour that CASA isn't too impressed by the proposal either.

Let's see what happens, and if the JC guys pick up the phone to AIPA, maybe the pilots can work together on what their preferred option would be, and go from there.

In the meantime, voting down the proposed CEA might put more pressure on Qantas. Just my thoughts.

Ollie Onion
9th Jan 2018, 04:02
I Listened to a meeting once between AIPA and ALPA discussing a group strategy with regard to negotiating CEA's (EBA's) for Jetconnect and Jetstar and if there was any possibility of helping each other out to move towards a group seniority list. Barry Jackson was there and I was in on it as a conference call. It broke down very quickly when AIPA stated that they would only negotiate in Qantas pilots interest even if that meant the end of Jetconnect and Jetstar with the loss of those jobs, that was the end of the meeting. I can't see AIPA spending ANY time on trying to accomodate the Jetconnect guys onto the seniority list, I get the feeling they would rather just see Jetconnect wound up with Jetconnect pilots offered interviews just like any other applicant. Hopefully I am totally wrong.

maggot
9th Jan 2018, 05:16
How can a president of a union negotiate to destroy his members careers?

Welcoming in is a different story

theheadmaster
9th Jan 2018, 05:20
Happy to say Ollie that you are wrong.

Derfred
9th Jan 2018, 12:27
Happy to agree with the headmaster here... I happen to know that you are very wrong.

Regardless, that was then, this is now.

Pick up the phone and keep an open mind.

normanton
9th Jan 2018, 14:25
So whats the general consensus then?

Bring the entire JC pilot group into mainline at the bottom? That way it will bring the jobs back to mainline. Yes I agree it's better for Australian pilot jobs and conditions long term.

If the JC pilots want their own EBA, then no mainline seniority.

Unfortunately I do not see QF management getting rid of JC.

theheadmaster
9th Jan 2018, 19:17
All this heated debate of where JC pilots should fit in to a combined entity is largely irrelevant at the moment. Qantas are not asking the opinion of their pilots or the unions, they have no interest in combining the groups so there is little point in getting angry with each other about it.

What us pilots do get a say in are the terms and conditions that we work under, our EBA (or the NZ equivalent). The original post was about using the unique position JC pilots find themselves in presently to get the best possible outcome.

You can effect your teams and conditions by voting accordingly. Remember a few key points;
- Qantas are making a bucket loads of money at the moment. If you can’t improve things now then you never will. The next EBA vote may coincide with a downturn.
- There is a local (QF group) and global pilot shortage. You are not easily replaceable and they need to stem the rate of attrition of JC pilots.
- Network changes brought about by EK (mostly) exiting the Tasman in March are driving this new integration. There is a firm deadline and Qantas will want your EBA locked away by the time this starts in March. This time pressure improves your bargaining position. Don’t get rushed into a deal that you think could be improved. I would expect a NO vote would very quickly be met with an improved counter offer.

I do not pretend to know your EBA conditions but even from across the ditch I can see that as pilots flying for the legacy airline side of the QF group you should not be on sub-standard conditions. You have the best possible combination of circumstances working in your favour right now as you try and improve your situation. Don’t let the opportunity pass you by.

This is about the best summary of the situation I have seen so far.

fullnoise
9th Jan 2018, 19:33
So whats the general consensus then?

Bring the entire JC pilot group into mainline at the bottom? That way it will bring the jobs back to mainline. Yes I agree it's better for Australian pilot jobs and conditions long term.

If the JC pilots want their own EBA, then no mainline seniority.

Unfortunately I do not see QF management getting rid of JC.

I see this thread has pretty much turned into a discussion on mainline seniority for JC pilots. While the OP's wording has probably made it sound like this is a factor or claim in the current CEA negotiation, it isn't, and contrary to some conclusions drawn from this wording, no JC pilot considers themselves "entitled" to a seniority number, nor is "demanding" one. It has been a point of discussion with AIPA, and will continue to be, but this has no bearing on the CEA proposal or the impending move to the Qantas AOC.

It's an interesting topic though. Personally, mainline seniority and T&C (likely at the expense of command prospects) would be ideal. In the short term, "what JC pilots want" (beyond the current proposal) will be largely irrelevant. The company (Qantas) is maintaining their cost-neutral stance on negotiation, and the information we have is there's very little to no room to move if the current proposal is voted down. This may turn out to be untrue. I'm sure we'll all find out soon.

Jetsbest
10th Jan 2018, 00:19
The company (Qantas) is maintaining their cost-neutral stance on negotiation, and the information we have is there's very little to no room to move if the current proposal is voted down. This may turn out to be untrue. I'm sure we'll all find out soon.

Would you really expect the company to say, or admit to, any other possible outcomes? If the pilots can’t/won’t indicate a disbelief of such statements (by rejecting a low-ball offer) then the people on the other side of your table are not going to volunteer to explain how much ‘room to move’ they really have!

Stick with it....

bythenumbers
10th Jan 2018, 00:44
Unfortunately buying into the company’s cost neutral bs has meant that things have been given up that needn’t have been.

Diddling FO’s out of $5580 per year on loss of licence insurance (over 60 FO’s ... not each) is penny pinching on the company’s behalf or pure incompetence by ALPA... probably both from what I’ve seen.

Giving up stat days to get 10 days off (of which the company is only obligated to roster 9 plus an owed lieu) is basically what we’ve got now; it’s a shuffling of a clause now wearing a shiny new hat. Don’t be fooled, you haven’t REALLY gained much. Between 130 to 141 days off per year... let’s hope you’re the lucky one. Jetstar NZ get 142 by the way. But... You don’t actually get 10 days off for 6 months after signing AND you’re not entitled to monetary loss of those days off and over the life of a 2 year agreement you’re down to an average of 131.

It was mentioned at the base meeting that the reserve call out couldn’t be changed because the company “doesn’t want pilots driving an extra half an hour due to fatigue” yet apparently doing an extra 5 hours duty per week has no effect on fatigue... again incompetence.

Meal break payment under NZ Employment law... traded away... initial FO pay... traded away... in this market... incompetence or worse.

The list goes on but I won’t clog the thread with anymore... if you don’t have a copy of the draft just look at the old contract and rearrange some words.

“Cost neutral”...

I’m sorry but this agreement is not worth the paper it’s written on. Voting yes is an affirmaion that JC Pilots aren’t worth anything more in this market than they were back in 2013.

fullnoise
10th Jan 2018, 01:03
Would you really expect the company to say, or admit to, any other possible outcomes? If the pilots can’t/won’t indicate a disbelief of such statements (by rejecting a low-ball offer) then the people on the other side of your table are not going to volunteer to explain how much ‘room to move’ they really have!

Stick with it....

I agree with the above two posts and the bulk of the OP's points, we are sticking with it, and there's a very high chance this proposal will be voted down. I just hope our side of the table is up to it, as the feedback from the recent base meetings certainly didn't generate a lot of confidence in how future negotiations would go with a no vote. I hope you're all correct.

And for the record, this is in no way a comment against the Council and the many days of hard work they've put in.

help me jebus
10th Jan 2018, 21:31
Post edited

ElZilcho
10th Jan 2018, 21:48
I agree with the above two posts and the bulk of the OP's points, we are sticking with it, and there's a very high chance this proposal will be voted down. I just hope our side of the table is up to it, as the feedback from the recent base meetings certainly didn't generate a lot of confidence in how future negotiations would go with a no vote. I hope you're all correct.

And for the record, this is in no way a comment against the Council and the many days of hard work they've put in.

Hopefully most Pilots at JC will take the attitude "What's the worst they can do to us?"

Fear of redundancy (or base closures) might have worked in the past, especially for the ex Ansett Pilots, but it's a different market today.

Troo believer
10th Jan 2018, 23:03
The ball is certainly in the JC pilot’s court giving you a strong backhander from a weak serve. If as alluded to by many including AIPA that the JC pilots did get some sort of ghost seniority numbers and this current proposal is time limited for joint flying of OZ rego aircraft, what happens to all the ancillary staff and JC management in NZ? Why couldn’t the whole box and dice be operated and managed from Sydney? Is NZ JC AOC going to be dissolved? There must be some nervous managers hoping that the current division continues otherwise they just might be looking for a new job.

bythenumbers
11th Jan 2018, 03:57
The ball is certainly in the JC pilot’s court giving you a strong backhander from a weak serve. If as alluded to by many including AIPA that the JC pilots did get some sort of ghost seniority numbers and this current proposal is time limited for joint flying of OZ rego aircraft, what happens to all the ancillary staff and JC management in NZ? Why couldn’t the whole box and dice be operated and managed from Sydney? Is NZ JC AOC going to be dissolved? There must be some nervous managers hoping that the current division continues otherwise they just might be looking for a new job.

The NZ AOC will cease to operate as of July if all goes to plan... groups of crew are beginning a 2 week conversion training course end of the month and once converted will be unable to fly the ZK rego aircraft.

Several folk will loose their positions including the Chief Pilot and other senior management pilots, engineering and safety department although the number is small. There are a few others here and there that will be made redundant due to the change however there are quite a few support staff required for the 600 odd FA’s and 120 odd pilots so they will thankfully not be looking for work elsewhere.

Rated De
11th Jan 2018, 04:37
Why couldn’t the whole box and dice be operated and managed from Sydney? It is and always was run from Sydney. CEO of Jetconnect Paul Daff responding to question from SC Moses in Fiar Work Australia hearing February 2011.

It never made any economic sense as a business, but it made complete sense from an IR perspective..That was the entire raison d'etre


SC MOSES Who paid the bills?


DAFF We process the bills in our office and they get paid ultimately by Qantas.

SC MOSESQantas pay the bills?
DAFF Well, Qantas pays all our bills, yes.

Hold_Short
19th Jan 2018, 08:55
The Jetconnect guys voted AGAINST the new contract. The proposal was voted down just after lunch time.

Interesting times ahead for the boys and gals. Good on you! Don't settle for second class contracts.

Hawkeye787
19th Jan 2018, 09:50
The Jetconnect guys voted AGAINST the new contract. The proposal was voted down just after lunch time.

Interesting times ahead for the boys and gals. Good on you! Don't settle for second class contracts.
It really wasn't if you were a captain. But agreed, interesting times ahead. Not my first rodeo, I have my predictions.

framer
19th Jan 2018, 10:04
Read this in today’s news, I guess the Jetconnect folk have options now more than ever.

SYDNEY: A recruitment drive by Australia's Qantas Airways after a seven-year hiatus is exacerbating shortages of pilots at regional air services that provide a lifeline to remote communities in the country's sparsely populated Outback.
As airlines from Asia, Europe and North America vie for pilots amid a global shortage, there is growing concern among people in Australia's vast interior who rely on flights to major cities for medical treatment.
Ewen McPhee, a doctor in the remote mining town of Emerald, said that when he referred patients for specialist care they often needed to travel nearly 1,000km to the nearest big city, Brisbane.
"Then they have to fly," he said. "It is an 11-hour drive otherwise for an ill patient with quite a significant problem."
Over the last four months the 80-minute flights have not been as reliable as usual, McPhee said, with last-minute cancellations for lack of pilots.
Regional Australia's predicament illustrates the broader risks the aviation industry faces from a lack of pilots as the number of annual air passengers globally is expected to nearly double to 7.8 billion over the next 20 years.
Advertisement
Around the world, airlines will be forced to review the wages, training and conditions they offer younger pilots as they open new routes and pursue ambitious expansion plans.
Australia's pilot shortage closely parallels one in the United States, where major airlines are on a hiring spree and regional carriers like Seattle-based Horizon Air have canceled hundreds of flights because of a lack of aviators.
Both countries have a culture of pilots paying up to US$100,000 of their own money for training and flying for years at regional carriers on low pay to gain experience to be hired by major airlines.
To help fill in the gaps, the Australian government has reopened two-year visas for foreign pilots. Regional airlines however say longer visas are required to attract pilots from overseas.
Qantas began hiring again in 2016 after years of financial strife, during which it offered pilots leave without pay to work for other airlines. By mid-2018, it says it will have employed 300 new pilots, many from regional airlines.
Virgin Australia Holdings Ltd hired roughly another 120 pilots over the past year to fly major domestic and international routes.
HIGH COSTS, LOW PAY
While the Australian government offers loans of up to AUS$75,000 for students at select flying schools, trainee flyers still need tens of thousands of dollars from other sources to get their stripes.
Such costs are a major reason the number of student pilot licenses issued annually has fallen 23 percent since 2006, according to official figures.
Once out of flight school, young first officers at relatively large regional carriers only earn about A$60,000 (US$48,000) a year, while being based in high-cost cities like Sydney where the average house price is about US$1 million.
"There is not a lot of incentive for smart young men and women to get into aviation," said Shane Loney, a Qantas pilot and vice president of the Australian and International Pilot Association.
"They have got a significant up-front cost to get qualified and then there isn't good pay unless they're fortunate enough to land a career with a big airline like Qantas or Virgin."
Unlike major Asian and European carriers such as Singapore Airlines Ltd and easyJet plc , Qantas does not offer a cadet program, although it partners with universities for its regional arm. Virgin, meanwhile, had 2,500 applications for 12 cadet spots last year.
Australia does not have a formal requirement for airline pilots to have 1,500 hours of flying experience like in the United States, but informally airlines want pilots with at least that number of hours for jets.
Even junior turboprop pilots in Australia usually have hundreds of hours, said Kirsty Ferguson, the founder of Sydney-based airline interview coaching firm Pinstripe Solutions.
"Australia is having the same gaps in regional flying as in the US," she said.
GLOBAL CHURN
U.S. regional carriers like Mesa Airlines Inc and Skywest Inc are so short of pilots they are raising salaries, offering sign-on bonuses worth up to US$50,000 and aggressively recruiting Australians and other foreigners eligible for visas. The U.S. Airline Pilots Association has said regional salaries are moving in the right direction.
In Australia, airlines with tight profit margins have not raised pay significantly despite pressure from unions, even as profits have recovered due to heavy cost-cutting.
At Regional Express Holdings Ltd (Rex) , which operates 33-seat turboprops, former cadets are paying agreed penalties of more than A$25,000 to escape a seven-year contract to advance to better-paid jobs at bigger airlines.
Rex has seen a spike in turnover as bigger airlines recruit. It wants the government to open up four-year visas for pilots with a path to permanent residency, said Chris Hine, a senior Rex executive and chairman of its flying school.
High turnover is not limited to Rex. Qantas's regional arm QantasLink, which employs 400 pilots, hired more than 80 last year and expects to hire another 100 this year as pilots leave for bigger airlines, including Qantas.
Others are heading overseas to carriers such as Dubai's Emirates and Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd while the opportunities are available.
"It just follows the trend of cycles in aviation," Australian Federation of Air Pilots President David Booth, a Virgin pilot, said of

Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/outback-australians-grounded-as-pilot-crisis-worsens-9875098

framer
19th Jan 2018, 10:11
I guess it’s not just Australia either, this is also from last week.

A pilot shortage across Canada is causing some regional carriers to cancel flights, put less experienced pilots in the cockpit and has even had an impact on some air ambulance services.

A combination of factors is causing the shortage — ever-increasing air travel by Canadians, a shortage around the world and a large number of pilots reaching retirement.

A soon-to-be released report by the Canadian Council for Aviation and Aerospace says Canada should be producing an extra 300 pilots a year to meet demand of a growing air travel industry.

Furthermore, the report warns demand for new hires for expansion and replacement of retirees could mean a shortfall of 6,000 pilots by 2036.

"Having fewer and fewer pilots to draw from, sooner or later the operators are going to have to start cutting routes," said Mike Doiron, an aviation consultant and CCAA representative.

Northern airlines cancel flights as Canada faces shortage of 6,000 pilots
ANALYSIS: WestJet at 20: Grown-up airline, grown-up problems
"Those seats are going to be sold at a premium because you will have more people wanting those seats, so the end result is the cost of flying, I would suggest, is inevitably going to go up."

Some in the industry say flight schools should be producing twice as many pilots to meet demand.

New federal rules around pilot fatigue could make the problem worse as airlines may have to hire substantially more pilots to maintain current flight schedules, industry representatives and observers say
The Indians are trying to fix their shortage;
Indian carriers are grappling with the pilot shortage and to stop them from migrating abroad, they have opportunities across the world primarily from West Asian carriers where income is tax free, airlines have no choice but to bear the extra burden of surcharge in addition to the tax,” said an executive of a private airline.

From today’s Irish Times;
RYANAIR pilots at each of the Irish airline’s 15 UK bases have voted to accept pay increases of up to 20 percent just months after rejecting the same deal last year.

The U-turn follows Ryanair’s decision to recognise unions for the first time after it was forced to cancel 20,000 flights last Autumn over a shortage of stand-by pilots.

The pilots originally rejected the offer late last year over concerns about pilot staffing and employment terms and conditions.
And over in the USA they have sign on bonuses for First Officers;
The signing bonuses of up to $45,000 will go to pilots who already have a solid record and Part 121 commercial airline experience, Wilson said.

“The actual amount offered will vary by candidate, but someone with a clean training record, reliable attendance and at least 600 hours of Part 121 experience can earn a check for $45,000 when they walk through the door,” he added.

The smart Airlines will lock in their crew to ride out the next few years and capitalise on the higher ticket prices that will become the norm.

bafanguy
19th Jan 2018, 10:22
"U.S. regional carriers...aggressively recruiting Australians and other foreigners eligible for visas."

Who are the "other foreigners" being recruited by US regionals ? :confused:

fullnoise
19th Jan 2018, 15:46
It really wasn't if you were a captain.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that. Spoken to a lot of Captains over the last month, and it was a resounding NO from at least 70-80% of them.

Hawkeye787
19th Jan 2018, 18:35
I'm not sure how you arrived at that. Spoken to a lot of Captains over the last month, and it was a resounding NO from at least 70-80% of them.
The issue is the union has received legal advice that our challenge on rest an meal breaks would have very limited success because Tasman flying has longer cruise periods then the domestic jetstar guys. So being expert negotiators they traded what was already a very questionable trump card for some real genuine benefits which the company will never be able to bargain back. It was our chance to lock it in. My concern now is,the company will fight back and revoke that offer tell us to litigate the meal issue and we are 80% likely to lose. It is for this reason the council said yes. Now we are going to be weaker as one by one the people are going to take IEA's the company is offering to lock in the days off and the bonus payments I already know of 5 (4CPT & 1 FO)looking to do it.

jetconnector
19th Jan 2018, 20:57
It really wasn't if you were a captain.

Actually, it really was. It’s still the worst contract in NZ. And that’s before you factor in the rubbish FOs that you as a Captain will be sitting next to because the good candidates will have stopped applying to Jetconnect.

But agreed, interesting times ahead. Not my first rodeo, I have my predictions.

Yep, I’m sure you have been to a few "rodeos" before and no doubt voted “yes” at every one... that’s why Jetconnect’s contract is the envy of the industry (jokes obviously). Maybe if we vote yes to this one we’ll get 78’s, yeah?

Considering what you’ve already posted on this thread, I think any new predictions from you can comfortably be taken with the grain of salt they deserve. I’m still patiently waiting to meet one of these Jetconnect Captains you say are fearing for their jobs... waiting, waiting.

help me jebus
20th Jan 2018, 00:14
Post edited

jetconnector
20th Jan 2018, 01:35
The issue is the union has received legal advice that our challenge on rest an meal breaks would have very limited success because Tasman flying has longer cruise periods then the domestic jetstar guys. So being expert negotiators they traded what was already a very questionable trump card for some real genuine benefits which the company will never be able to bargain back. It was our chance to lock it in. My concern now is,the company will fight back and revoke that offer tell us to litigate the meal issue and we are 80% likely to lose. It is for this reason the council said yes. Now we are going to be weaker as one by one the people are going to take IEA's the company is offering to lock in the days off and the bonus payments I already know of 5 (4CPT & 1 FO)looking to do it.

Why are you focusing on one issue? The proposed CEA got voted down for many reasons. And if the company now wishes to take meal break compensation off the table it will merely reinforce how inferior our contract is compared to our peers.

ElZilcho
21st Jan 2018, 06:32
Good job on the NO vote.

Why worry about one clause? Can always vote NO again. If some Pilots are opting to take IEA's, well it shows a lot about their character doesn't it.

This has always been JetConnects problem, or certainly was back in my days there... too many voting yes out of fear, or in the case of some Wellington Pilots, to protect their part-time job!! (Seriously, are those guys still flying ~300 hours a year? :})

help me jebus
22nd Jan 2018, 03:28
Post edited

bythenumbers
22nd Jan 2018, 03:56
The issue is the union has received legal advice that our challenge on rest an meal breaks would have very limited success because Tasman flying has longer cruise periods then the domestic jetstar guys. So being expert negotiators they traded what was already a very questionable trump card for some real genuine benefits...

Wait let me stop you there... Meal break money... 300 and something THOUSAND DOLLARS per annum for what benefits exactly?...

...an extra 0.5% in your Kiwi saver? Well that is approximately $90k across the pilot group assuming everyone took 8% out of their already ridiculously poor pay packet to actually get the extra 0.5%... remember they’ll match your contribution up to 4.5% so 4% ain’t gonna cut it buddy... why don’t you just take your $2k or $3.5k a year and save that... you’ll be better off.

Oh and then there is spending some of the other 300 and something THOUSAND DOLLARS on buffing up the entry FO pay... but wait a minute... Why am I spending my meal allowance to improve a pay scale that shouldn’t even be in the contract to begin with?

Should I go on?

Let’s just all be thankful that the pilot group wasn’t swimming in the coolaide fountain and get on with negotiating an acceptable contract instead of an insult.

help me jebus
23rd Jan 2018, 21:47
Post edited

Lapon
23rd Jan 2018, 23:50
... not to mention the Cobham proposal has just been overwhelmingly voted down.

Steve Zissou
23rd Jan 2018, 23:58
I note you are comparing yourselves with LCC's and 717 pilots. What about AirNZ 320 pilots?

Oh, this’ll be good....

Lapon
24th Jan 2018, 00:04
Or Qantas mainline 737 :E

Popgun
24th Jan 2018, 00:31
I don't have a dog in the fight but I think 'exploitation' is a bit of a stretch.

It's hardly a job in a gulag or salt mine at gunpoint!

Are the remuneration and associated conditions below par? Absolutely, no question. But when suitable staff can be found for the conditions on offer in a free, democratised country then that is a definition of a market rate.

The real question is what to do about it. There are really only two possible options. Reduce the supply of suitable pilots willing to do the job for the conditions on offer (i.e. quit/don't apply) or organise cohesively and negotiate a fairer deal.

There will always be limited good jobs in this part of the world and strong pilot industrial cohesion is usually elusive.

I genuinely wish you guys a fair outcome.

PG

virgindriver
24th Jan 2018, 02:14
How do the real wages compare when you factor in the top NZ tax rate of 30% compared to nearly 50% in Australia?

Should really just be comparing wages in NZ.

help me jebus
24th Jan 2018, 03:13
Post edited

Daylight Robbery
24th Jan 2018, 03:20
Jetconnect Captain AVERAGE wage over first 3yrs (2x2.5% increases over CEA)
Ratification.....Oct2018..........Oct 2019
NZ$178,248.33 NZ$182,704.33 NZ$188,860.66

NZ$186,269.50 NZ$190,923.02 NZ$197,359.40 (Total Package)


Is there not a 18 or 24k retention payment per annum? Or is this just at present and going to disappear?

bythenumbers
24th Jan 2018, 04:24
Is there not a 18 or 24k retention payment per annum? Or is this just at present and going to disappear?

The retention payment has been rolled into the base salary primarily I believe because where an employee took leave immediately after their retention payment was made their base salary was hyper inflated for their annual leave period. Something to do with how payroll works.

Yet don’t be getting too excited because the incentive flight hour payments are based on the base salary minus the retention figure and are fixed for the term of the agreement meaning over time inflation will degrade the hourly rate for incentive...

What’s more because the retention bonus has been rolled into the base the higher duty allowances such as the flight examiner duty allowance has been reduced from 16% to 15.6% to account for the increase in base salary... better not pay those pesky flight examiners too much lest they get too big for their boots.

Did someone mention cost neutral?

ElZilcho
24th Jan 2018, 05:03
The retention payment has been rolled into the base salary primarily I believe because where an employee took leave immediately after their retention payment was made their base salary was hyper inflated for their annual leave period. Something to do with how payroll works.

Yet don’t be getting too excited because the incentive flight hour payments are based on the base salary minus the retention figure and are fixed for the term of the agreement meaning over time inflation will degrade the hourly rate for incentive...

What’s more because the retention bonus has been rolled into the base the higher duty allowances such as the flight examiner duty allowance has been reduced from 16% to 15.6% to account for the increase in base salary... better not pay those pesky flight examiners too much lest they get too big for their boots.

Did someone mention cost neutral?

WOW :sad:

Forget about all the Pilots who left a few months shy of their retention, costing themselves (but saving the company) thousands of dollars.... no, let’s go after the few who manage to get leave right after their anniversary :D::rolleyes:

No wonder JC is haemorrhaging Pilots to other carriers.

virgindriver
24th Jan 2018, 05:36
Under AU$180,000 you remain on 37c per dollar tax bracket in Australia.


AU$160,238 pays roughly $46,919 in tax, as calculated by the ATO tax calculator.


The same wage converted to NZ$ and taxed on the highest bracket of 33c.


NZ$175,459 pays roughly NZ$48,821 (AU$44,585), as calculated by the IRD tax calculator.


The fact in NZ you can't make any work related deductions to lower your taxable income. Along with the fact, the cost of living in New Zealand compared to Australiais quite high, means the comparisons of wages between countries should be quite relevant..


I thought every captain at JC would be earning well more than 200k a year.

The actual take home pay would be better than is suggested.

Be more than a Network or Cobham captain over here.

help me jebus
24th Jan 2018, 06:22
Post edited

27/09
24th Jan 2018, 06:40
What pilots get paid in Aussie has SFA to do with what the pilots at Jetconnect get paid.

How their pay and conditions compare to pilots doing similar jobs (Virgin, Air NZ Jetstar etc), in New Zealand is what matters.

You need to be comparing apple with apples. They are New Zealand pilots employed in New Zealand on a New Zealand contract.

I think Aussie pilots need to realise that by and large they get paid better than in most other parts of the world. Good on you for being able to achieve that, but just because you get paid well it doesn't translate that your conditions will automatically flow into other jurisdictions.

One of Ansett New Zealand's downfalls was the generous salary packages they brought with them to New Zealand from Australia.

help me jebus
24th Jan 2018, 07:00
Post edited

Troo believer
24th Jan 2018, 07:39
That’s utter crap 27/09.
How many hours do you fly is what should be asked. Productivity? Hours at work? Duty? Qf short haul is probably double the duty or more for equivalent flight time than Jetconnect. Flying at the moment is woefully inefficient. 4 sector days 6 hours pay 12 hours duty for example is not uncommon. Total Package for some very hard working Captains on the 737 is north of $400k. For that 1000 (Flight) hours/yr and duty in the order of at least on average 180hrs/28 days. In other words 18-20 days at work per 28 day roster. Most will earn around 280-300k/yr. Of course at least 35% goes to the government unless you can write it off!

framer
24th Jan 2018, 07:57
Consumer Prices in Sydney are 4.91% higher than in Auckland
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Sydney are 19.14% higher than in Auckland
Rent Prices in Sydney are 47.80% higher than in Auckland
Restaurant Prices in Sydney are 7.09% higher than in Auckland
Groceries Prices in Sydney are 8.04% higher than in Auckland

I agree with 27/09
Apples with Oranges.
A valid comparison is with Air NZ A320, Virgin NZ, and Jetstar NZ

bythenumbers
24th Jan 2018, 08:08
Jetconnect doesn’t operate anywhere else ex NZ but Australia on routes that used to be operated solely from Australia with flights that still technically originate from Australia as per the schedule and branded as being Australian.

So if you want to compare the Jetconnect Apple with Apples of a similar type then you need to compare it to all the other contracts that QF pays to do its bidding no matter how rotten they may be (You see what I did there).

Troo believer
24th Jan 2018, 08:52
How many hours in the seat for the money? It’s not that hard.

aerostatic
24th Jan 2018, 20:07
I don't have a dog in the fight but I think 'exploitation' is a bit of a stretch.

But when suitable staff can be found for the conditions on offer in a free, democratised country then that is a definition of a market rate.

PG

'Suitable' is a relative term. I would suggest that 90% of 'suitable' pilots join Air NZ/Qantas and stay until retirement. At Jetconnect it would be lucky to be 5%. The high level of churn is not good for maintaining experience levels and quite frankly I think Qantas customers want experience. Look after your staff and your staff will look after your customers.

HabuHunter
24th Jan 2018, 21:58
I don't have a dog in the fight but I think 'exploitation' is a bit of a stretch.

Are the remuneration and associated conditions below par? Absolutely, no question. But when suitable staff can be found for the conditions on offer in a free, democratised country then that is a definition of a market rate.

PG

Hi PG, I think your definition of “market rate” is too simplistic. The market itself is rigged! It’s not a free market and democracy has very little to say about it.

QF can set a substandard offer because there has been a systematic attack over the last decade or so both in NZ and Aust on the legal options for workers to organise and withhold their labour. NZ and Aust are both in contravention of International Labour Organisation Convention no.87 which permit industry wide sympathy industrial action. Also, both countries have made it illegal to withhold labour outside a small legally defined window, again in contravention of the ILO.

You have to ask yourself why wage growth is at a historical low while executive renumeration is at an all time high... I think workers in general are being exploited by this manipulation of the “market rate”.

framer
25th Jan 2018, 04:04
Well whatever they end up with will be the market rate but the market in question is certainly a long way away from the concept of a free market. People who espouse the benefits of a free market normally don’t acknowledge that they rarely if ever exist.

Thewnz
24th Apr 2019, 18:38
Can anyone give any insight to how things are going with the new CEA? I am looking at shortly applying to both Jetconnect and Virgin and just wnt to make the best educated decision if I was fortunate enough to be offered something by both parties (coming from a regional turboprop background with what will be a very long wait for any jet progression with current company)....
is JC inevitably going to be absorbed into mainline? And is job/career security an issue within the forseeable future with these changes?

Arthur D
25th Apr 2019, 11:12
JC exists purely and simply as an instrument of industrial convenience designed to reduce labour cost.

Until recently the AOC was held as it was believed to be necessary to keep the party going. As soon as the winds of opinion swung the other way it was gone.

Why would you think the labour hire shell that now exists would be any different?

Not saying don’t work there, just be realistic about the situation. You are a mercenary, extract appropriate benefit.

Gligg
25th Apr 2019, 13:44
So in future, any Australian pilot looking to join direct entry on jets with Qantas or Virgin, will need to move overseas?

Tankengine
25th Apr 2019, 14:48
So in future, any Australian pilot looking to join direct entry on jets with Qantas or Virgin, will need to move overseas?

Err, no?
This thread is about Jetconnect in NZ, not Qantas or Virgin in Australia.

Thewnz
25th Apr 2019, 22:36
JC exists purely and simply as an instrument of industrial convenience designed to reduce labour cost.

Until recently the AOC was held as it was believed to be necessary to keep the party going. As soon as the winds of opinion swung the other way it was gone.

Why would you think the labour hire shell that now exists would be any different?

Not saying don’t work there, just be realistic about the situation. You are a mercenary, extract appropriate benefit.
so basically your saying take the job for what it is.. A jet job within NZ with potentially quicker commands than other places and earning a good enough wage to support a modest lifestyle?

Gligg
26th Apr 2019, 11:17
Err, no?
This thread is about Jetconnect in NZ, not Qantas or Virgin in Australia.

Aren't they intertwined? I was referring to the fact that a direct entry jet job at virgin oz these days goes through nz, and that if JC merge seniority with Qantas mainline, the same would likely be the case for joining Qantas.

Arthur D
26th Apr 2019, 11:25
Yep - get in, get what you want / need, get out.

I would be careful about holding delusions of a career, however if you do hang around, be prepared.

NGsim
26th Apr 2019, 14:38
Yep - get in, get what you want / need, get out.

I would be careful about holding delusions of a career, however if you do hang around, be prepared.

Some have been holding these delusions for 16 years, any day now......

Tankengine
26th Apr 2019, 18:20
Err, no?
This thread is about Jetconnect in NZ, not Qantas or Virgin in Australia.

Aren't they intertwined? I was referring to the fact that a direct entry jet job at virgin oz these days goes through nz, and that if JC merge seniority with Qantas mainline, the same would likely be the case for joining Qantas.

Except they aren’t.
Virgin is Virgin, Qantas is Qantas and Jetconnect is Jetconnect (in Qantas colours)

Gligg
27th Apr 2019, 10:45
Tank, I hope you're right.

Thewnz
28th Apr 2019, 08:36
Yep - get in, get what you want / need, get out.

I would be careful about holding delusions of a career, however if you do hang around, be prepared.
Im intrigued, be prepared for what? In the grand scheme of things im a pretty low hour turbo prop fella, staring down the barrel of about 5-7 years as a turbo prop fella before a shot at jets with current outfit. Im not a spring chicken, a late aviation bloomer, with kids, a wife whos also a turboprop driver but well up the seniority list for a jet gig, but ultimately wants to work part time. So From here on out im here for a job that has quick progression (both position wise therefore financially too). Im happy to be a line pilot that turns up to work to do a job and go home when i finish. The idea of a career has changed these days anyway, now there are a few options in NZ. Im more interested in job security and lifestyle (not in auckland but a short 2 hours commute)

ElZilcho
28th Apr 2019, 11:18
Im intrigued, be prepared for what? In the grand scheme of things im a pretty low hour turbo prop fella, staring down the barrel of about 5-7 years as a turbo prop fella before a shot at jets with current outfit. Im not a spring chicken, a late aviation bloomer, with kids, a wife whos also a turboprop driver but well up the seniority list for a jet gig, but ultimately wants to work part time. So From here on out im here for a job that has quick progression (both position wise therefore financially too). Im happy to be a line pilot that turns up to work to do a job and go home when i finish. The idea of a career has changed these days anyway, now there are a few options in NZ. Im more interested in job security and lifestyle (not in auckland but a short 2 hours commute)

Can only assume you're referring to Air NZ and are currently a Link Pilot?

What makes you say you're 5-7 years from a Jet Job? Low hours? Or is it because Tag & Release is creating a bit of a seniority based backlog? If it's a the latter, then that's something many of us warned Air NZ about repeatedly when they came up with this wonderful idea. With 600 Link Pilots and 1100 Jet Pilots (roughly), the simple fact is not every Link Pilot will get to fly a Jet for Air NZ, as that's about 20 years worth of retirements.

Personally, I left the Links as soon as I'd done 12 months of Command time. I was similar to you with a family and mortgage to pay and the Links (historically) simply didn't pay enough to keep me around. Many of us left for Jet Job within NZ and plenty more went overseas, most notably to Cathay.

Anyway, JetConnect... they should be the best job in NZ for those who want to be home every night. Flying the Tasman with an average return time of about 7 hours should see you working 10-12 days a roster and spend the other 16 or so fishing. So ask yourself, why do they have such a massive turnover? Why did they have to fight to get 10 days off per roster? Why did a large portion of their Captains, including C&T Captains, head to China, the ME.... even Air NZ as SO's?

I'm not saying don't go there.... but don't go there assuming it'll be a career. No one really knows what QF's long term plans are for JC, but I'd say it's unlikely they'd ever get on the Mainline Seniority list or Contract. Job security is probably assured for a few more years now they're on the VH rego, so the next question will be what happens when QF retire the 737-800? That's the history of JC really, they've never been able to look more than a few years ahead.

I will say however, Air NZ is paying attention to the current mess that is recruitment.... both Link and Jet. There's been problems with Recruitment for years, but now it's costing them money. I don't know what exactly is going to change, the obvious solution would be to pay you guys enough to make you think twice about J*/JC/Virgin but that costs money so probably wont happen. A Jets just another Aircraft type, and the novelty eventually wares off... faster than you might think. If Air NZ were to increase the T&C's of the Link Group, might be worth hanging around.

Thewnz
28th Apr 2019, 23:29
Can only assume you're referring to Air NZ and are currently a Link Pilot?

What makes you say you're 5-7 years from a Jet Job? Low hours? Or is it because Tag & Release is creating a bit of a seniority based backlog? If it's a the latter, then that's something many of us warned Air NZ about repeatedly when they came up with this wonderful idea. With 600 Link Pilots and 1100 Jet Pilots (roughly), the simple fact is not every Link Pilot will get to fly a Jet for Air NZ, as that's about 20 years worth of retirements.

Personally, I left the Links as soon as I'd done 12 months of Command time. I was similar to you with a family and mortgage to pay and the Links (historically) simply didn't pay enough to keep me around. Many of us left for Jet Job within NZ and plenty more went overseas, most notably to Cathay.

Anyway, JetConnect... they should be the best job in NZ for those who want to be home every night. Flying the Tasman with an average return time of about 7 hours should see you working 10-12 days a roster and spend the other 16 or so fishing. So ask yourself, why do they have such a massive turnover? Why did they have to fight to get 10 days off per roster? Why did a large portion of their Captains, including C&T Captains, head to China, the ME.... even Air NZ as SO's?

I'm not saying don't go there.... but don't go there assuming it'll be a career. No one really knows what QF's long term plans are for JC, but I'd say it's unlikely they'd ever get on the Mainline Seniority list or Contract. Job security is probably assured for a few more years now they're on the VH rego, so the next question will be what happens when QF retire the 737-800? That's the history of JC really, they've never been able to look more than a few years ahead.

I will say however, Air NZ is paying attention to the current mess that is recruitment.... both Link and Jet. There's been problems with Recruitment for years, but now it's costing them money. I don't know what exactly is going to change, the obvious solution would be to pay you guys enough to make you think twice about J*/JC/Virgin but that costs money so probably wont happen. A Jets just another Aircraft type, and the novelty eventually wares off... faster than you might think. If Air NZ were to increase the T&C's of the Link Group, might be worth hanging around.
Yeh all very fair comments and things that ve thought about a lot. Im very far down seniority and due to my hours still about 2 more years for a turbo prop command and then another year for jet eligibility and prob another 2 years for tag and release. Ill be mid 40's by then and ive quickly realised that a jet is a just another plane (ie: dont have shiby jet syndrome never have) but i do have aspirations of moving up the ladder a little bit. And well i may as well get paid more than twice my current earnings to do a similar job in terms of hours (prob less duty time at JC) with the chance of having more time at home. I guess the toss up for me is which OTHER jet company. For me the hopeful choices are JC and virgin both with pros and cons (depending if i get interviewed and offered a job) a few people seem to think things are OK at both

ElZilcho
30th Apr 2019, 04:55
Yeh all very fair comments and things that ve thought about a lot. Im very far down seniority and due to my hours still about 2 more years for a turbo prop command and then another year for jet eligibility and prob another 2 years for tag and release. Ill be mid 40's by then and ive quickly realised that a jet is a just another plane (ie: dont have shiby jet syndrome never have) but i do have aspirations of moving up the ladder a little bit. And well i may as well get paid more than twice my current earnings to do a similar job in terms of hours (prob less duty time at JC) with the chance of having more time at home. I guess the toss up for me is which OTHER jet company. For me the hopeful choices are JC and virgin both with pros and cons (depending if i get interviewed and offered a job) a few people seem to think things are OK at both

All fair points. Depending on how low your hours are, you might find you're up for a Command in the Links before a Jet Job comes along anyway. We all get stuck somewhere in our careers. I joined the links with the Command requirements so didn't have to wait long (took a less than desirable base). I'll never forget the comment one of my colleagues made to me.... said I was lucky to have joined with such high hours as they had to spend longer as an FO to get the ATPL requirements. The fact that I got those hours slogging in GA while they were on a T-Prop went completely over their head.

If I had to choose one of the 3, with the plan to stay in NZ, then I'd likely look at J*. Virgins going broke (last I heard), JC is simply a crew provider to QF while J* has more routes and A/C than QF mainline. It's entirely possible all 3 will still be operating 30 years from now, but if I had to bet which one was most likely to survive, my money's on J*. Variety is also a factor, I personally couldn't fly the Tasman for the rest if my career without going mad with boredom.

Best of luck in whatever you decide. Ultimately, they're all good jobs and pay much better than your current gig so cast a wide net and see what happens.

NewZealand2
7th Sep 2019, 06:26
....
Anyway, JetConnect... they should be the best job in NZ for those who want to be home every night. Flying the Tasman with an average return time of about 7 hours should see you working 10-12 days a roster and spend the other 16 or so fishing. So ask yourself, why do they have such a massive turnover? Why did they have to fight to get 10 days off per roster? Why did a large portion of their Captains, including C&T Captains, head to China, the ME.... even Air NZ as SO's?....


Simply put, they're a disgraceful employer.