PDA

View Full Version : S.W.A.T.


BlankBox
29th Dec 2017, 21:53
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/fake-swat-call-over-call-of-duty-suspected-in-man-s-shooting-death-1.3739251

...not much to say here except :yuk:...

...have a joyous ?? New Year...

G-CPTN
30th Dec 2017, 01:17
How an online gaming feud might have led to a deadly police shooting (http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article192160869.html).

G-CPTN
30th Dec 2017, 17:24
Police shoot dead man after alleged Call of Duty 'swatting' hoax (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42523045).

a dispute over a game led to one gamer threatening another with a "swatting", who then gave the first gamer a fake address. That address was then reportedly given to a third person, a known online "swatter", who allegedly made the emergency calls.

Gertrude the Wombat
30th Dec 2017, 18:07
Sigh. Yet another case of "not enough guns". If everyone were to look out of their bedroom window before opening the front door, and shoot any police they could see in the street, this sort of thing wouldn't happen.

Hempy
30th Dec 2017, 18:20
U1mlCPMYtPk

Gertrude the Wombat
30th Dec 2017, 20:48
The policeman's gun didn't kill the victim. Guns don't do that.
Sure, but if the victim had been properly armed with his own gun he could have killed the policeman first.

Ogre
30th Dec 2017, 22:08
Quote from the ALLEGED person who made the original phone call "I didn't get anyone killed because I didn't discharge a weapon and being a swat member isn't my profession".

Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your actions? What happened to stopping to think about the consequences of sending a bunch of highly trained, heavily armed personnel into a situation that they think would be involving a person with a gun who has already resorted to violence?

My thoughts are for the guy who did pull the trigger!

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article192160869.html#storylink=cpy"

funfly
30th Dec 2017, 22:33
I think everyone should have a gun and that killing people should be mandatory.
Good riddance to us all.
Bah.

westhawk
31st Dec 2017, 01:20
Two problems with how this transpired:

1) If these SWAT members are so highly trained, then why did one of them shoot an unarmed innocent man? Yes I'm aware of the concerns for everyone's (except the victim in this instance) safety, but "movement of his hand towards his waist" isn't much of a standard to justify shooting a man. Especially when you're equipped and "trained" as a SWAT officer. These cops can and should do better. Maybe until they do, they could carry weapons without bullets like fictional Deputy Barney Fife? (Don Knotts)

2) This LA "gamer" jackass can and should be tried for murder.

Now back to your regularly scheduled 'murica-bashing anti-gun rhetoric! (whatever that particular social illness has to do with the actions of a thoughtless idiot compounded by a police screwup I'm not certain)

Edited to add: More recent versions of the news story regarding the "swatting" incident now appear to make it clear that there was no SWAT involvement. Just ordinary street cops responding to a fake call. Tragic...

jolihokistix
31st Dec 2017, 02:50
Spiderman would've webbed/netted the guy.

Ascend Charlie
31st Dec 2017, 05:58
When the general population worships guns, and stockpiles guns, and the games they play glorify mass killing, what could possibly go wrong?

westhawk
31st Dec 2017, 07:02
When the general population worships guns, and stockpiles guns, and the games they play glorify mass killing, what could possibly go wrong?

Does that tired old diatribe have some relation to the incident which is subject of this thread. Not very clever.

mickjoebill
31st Dec 2017, 08:09
If you are half asleep, deaf, drug affected, mentally ill, panicked, traumatised or don’t understand American English and so do not appear to respond to verbal commands the police could shoot you, without warning and (usually) without recrimination.

They can also shoot you in the back if you begin to run away and they believe or suspect that you are armed.

This is the price innocent Americans pay, due to the likelihood of police crossing paths with armed members of the public.

wiggy
31st Dec 2017, 08:52
With regard to the guns and America argument FWIW “ swatting” has happened a few times in France recently, though fortunately the worse that has happened is doors have been kicked in and innocent people have been left traumatised.

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Dec 2017, 10:49
1) If these SWAT members are so highly trained, then why did one of them shoot an unarmed innocent man?
We are talking about armed American police here - shooting unarmed innocent men is what they do, if there aren't any unarmed innocent black children handy.

Tankertrashnav
31st Dec 2017, 11:03
If these SWAT members are so highly trained ...

I always get cynical when I hear this "highly trained" phrase being trotted out. From counsellors who move in mob handed after some tragedy, to police teams making yet another cock-up like this, all are invariably "highly trained"

Bring back the talented amateur!

Mechta
31st Dec 2017, 11:29
I always get cynical when I hear this "highly trained" phrase being trotted out. From counsellors who move in mob handed after some tragedy, to police teams making yet another cock-up like this, all are invariably "highly trained"


Perhaps they were highly trained because they were never any good at it and took inordinate amounts of training to reach even the most mediocre pass. :E

ORAC
31st Dec 2017, 12:08
He who is without sin.....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/27/police-car-shoot-near-bristol-witness

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jan/17/anthony-grainger-shooting-public-inquiry-police-intelligence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan

Crepello
31st Dec 2017, 14:16
Ah - yet another thread proving that here on JB, complete ignorance of a subject shouldn't dissuade you from attempting to formulate an opinion of it!

Seems a clean shoot. Cops responded to immediate life threat, subject failed to comply with commands and further elevated threat level. Subject down; all cops go home safe. All too often, that's not the case - yet I get impression several of the above posters would be partying in the streets, had yet more police widows/widowers been created.

The usual hypocrisy remains... "guns are evil", "cops are brutal", etc. Yet almost every crime victim I've assisted was quick to call 911 and demand cops with guns appear instantaneously. Funny old world!

bafanguy
31st Dec 2017, 15:02
Sure, but if the victim had been properly armed with his own gun he could have killed the policeman first.

You've made a couple of references in this thread to shooting cops. You're just being sarcastic, I assume ?

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Dec 2017, 15:03
The usual hypocrisy remains... "guns are evil", "cops are brutal", etc. Yet almost every crime victim I've assisted was quick to call 911 and demand cops with guns appear instantaneously. Funny old world!
They probably wanted one of the competent ones, if there are any outside your imagination. Personally I wouldn't call an armed cop in the USA and then open the door to them! - FFS!!!

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Dec 2017, 15:05
You've made a couple of references in this thread to shooting cops. You're just being sarcastic, I assume ?
If the biggest threat out there on the street is armed cops, as now seems to be the case, and the American Way is to arm yourself against threats out there on the street and shoot first and worry about the paperwork later, then I am simply being logical.

westhawk
31st Dec 2017, 15:27
Seems a clean shoot.

That's one way to spin it. Another way could be forthcoming. The media hasn't collectively decided which way to go on this yet. We'll see what they say after the legal and police procedure "experts" chime in. In the meantime, at least we have this slacker from LA who likes to play games on the phone to concentrate our scorn upon. His previous conviction for calling in bomb threats to a TV station could influence the narrative!

Jet II
31st Dec 2017, 15:42
A cop is pointing a gun at you so what is so hard about complying with his (or her) instructions. Almost all the police involved shootings of unarmed suspects are because they either tried to flee or refused to comply with instructions - if they had simply done as they were told they would be walking around today.

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Dec 2017, 16:01
A cop is pointing a gun at you so what is so hard about complying with his (or her) instructions.
Scared shitless and brain freeze would be only one of several possible answers, especially if you've only got half a second or so to analyse the situation and react.

Jet II
31st Dec 2017, 18:15
Scared shitless and brain freeze would be only one of several possible answers, especially if you've only got half a second or so to analyse the situation and react.

Well it must be just me then - when someone is pointing a gun at me I tend to do what they say, I dont try and run away and I dont start fiddling around in my pockets.

But as I said - that is just me. :rolleyes:

Mechta
31st Dec 2017, 18:27
A cop is pointing a gun at you so what is so hard about complying with his (or her) instructions. Almost all the police involved shootings of unarmed suspects are because they either tried to flee or refused to comply with instructions - if they had simply done as they were told they would be walking around today.

You're in the house doing nothing wrong. You hear a commotion outside, so go to the door. Someone, maybe many people, are pointing torches (flashlights) and car headlamps at you. Someone shouts something at you. What did they say? If you don't do exactly the right thing straight away, you're dead.

Do the American Police and military really shout at people when pointing guns at them, as portrayed by Hollywood? If so, its hardly surprising that panic ensues and people get shot.

Word of advice to any would-be hostage takers - Always send a hostage to the door first.:E

Pontius Navigator
31st Dec 2017, 18:28
Well it must be just me then - when someone is pointing a gun at me I tend to do what they say, I dont try and run away and I dont start fiddling around in my pockets.

But as I said - that is just me. :rolleyes:

Remember, in a multi-lingual society, what is perfectly clear and understandable to one person could be gibberish to another.

Once challenged by a white US Serviceman I could not understand a word he said. Fortunately his colleague, who had done a tour in East Anglia, was able to interpret. Another instance, a USAF Sgt on posting to Florida could not understand the locals. He asked for, and got, an immediate reassignment back to Germany.

Mechta
31st Dec 2017, 19:16
Once challenged by a white US Serviceman I could not understand a word he said. Fortunately his colleague, who had done a tour in East Anglia, was able to interpret. Another instance, a USAF Sgt on posting to Florida could not understand the locals. He asked for, and got, an immediate reassignment back to Germany.

That sounds very familiar. Once when asking for directions in a shop (store) in Virginia Beach, the girl behind the counter, looked at me and very slowly and clearly stated, 'I'm very sorry, I do not speak German'.
The next day, having hired a car, I was driving down to Kitty Hawk, North Carolina, and picked up a hitchhiker. This guy was the full deal; denim dungarees, collarless shirt, straw hat etc. We really did try to communicate, but whatever he was speaking, clearly wasn't the same English that I was using, and he couldn't understand a word I said, either.

Gertrude the Wombat
31st Dec 2017, 20:51
Well it must be just me then - when someone is pointing a gun at me I tend to do what they say
I've never had anyone point a gun at me - under what circumstances could that possibly have happened???[#] It would be a completely outlandish, unreal, out-of-this-universe, experience and I can't begin to guess how I'd react.

[#] OK, we did get stopped by some armed police in Jamaica once, but they were pointing their guns at the road, not at me.

bafanguy
31st Dec 2017, 21:15
...especially if you've only got half a second or so to analyse the situation and react.

Exactly the circumstance cops experience as part of their job description; you stated you've never been in such a position yet condemn those who have for a lack of unfailing perfection.

But since you wish death for the ~900,000 cops in the US, here's some info that should brighten your holiday season as it comes to an end. You'll be encouraged to see that not only are they shot by perps but also perish by "vehicle assault" !! Happy New Year:

https://www.odmp.org/search/year
Law Enforcement Facts (http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/)

Preliminary 2017 Fatality Statistics (http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/)

The preliminary data seems to show that gun-related cop deaths are down in 2017 vs 2016. Sorry to end on such a sour note for you. But there's always 2018 to look forward to.

spInY nORmAn
31st Dec 2017, 21:49
A cop is pointing a gun at you so what is so hard about complying with his (or her) instructions. Almost all the police involved shootings of unarmed suspects are because they either tried to flee or refused to comply with instructions - if they had simply done as they were told they would be walking around today.

This guy was trying to comply with the instructions which apparently involved crawling on hands and knees with his legs crossed?! It didn't end well for him (or his wife and two young daughters who are now fatherless). The officer who did the shooting was charged and subsequently found not guilty. Skip to about the 11 minute mark. This really disturbed me. https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

Pontius Navigator
31st Dec 2017, 22:42
I've never had anyone point a gun at me - under what circumstances could that possibly have happened???[#] It would be a completely outlandish, unreal, out-of-this-universe, experience and I can't begin to guess how I'd react.
you react slowly. First because you don't know what is happening. Then still slowly as you think a sudden movement might alarm the gunman. And finally still slowly as you want to do the right thing as ordered by the gunman and don't want to make a mistake.

RatherBeFlying
1st Jan 2018, 00:37
There's just one
You can establish a working rapport with that one person
There's no buddy standing where you don't see him who might panic and shoot at any misinterpreted movement that may even be exactly as ordered by another officer
The robber knows he will be up for murder if you get shot
A cop will be defended by the best lawyer his union can buy in the rare occasion his shooting results in charges

Jet II
1st Jan 2018, 00:55
This guy was trying to comply with the instructions which apparently involved crawling on hands and knees with his legs crossed?! It didn't end well for him (or his wife and two young daughters who are now fatherless). The officer who did the shooting was charged and subsequently found not guilty. Skip to about the 11 minute mark. This really disturbed me. https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

Yes - the guy clearly didn't do what the cop told him to do. The cop said quite clearly that if he put his hands behind him again they would shoot.

So as I said, if he had complied with the instructions from the cop he would not have been shot.

tdracer
1st Jan 2018, 01:19
Yep, let's just get rid of the armed police, that'll solve the problem...

https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2017/12/31/baltimore-police-backed-away-community-protested-guess-happened/



So the greatest revelation that some communities may be grasping, moving into 2018 is that if you continuously threaten the police, attack the police, protest and spit on the police, they’ll back off and the crime in your communities goes up.

TWT
1st Jan 2018, 03:05
It's no wonder cops are twitchy ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/31/us/colorado-deputies-shooting.html

RatherBeFlying
1st Jan 2018, 06:52
Looking at the officer fatality statistics in Preliminary 2017 Fatality Statistics (http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/)

a rough average of 55 officers died from firearms in 2016-17. Traffic incidents (accidental and intentional, no breakdown given) took a rough average of 50 each year.

So that comes to some 20 civilians killed by police (mostly shot) for every officer killed by firearms.

tdracer
1st Jan 2018, 08:01
So that comes to some 20 civilians killed by police (mostly shot) for every officer killed by firearms.
And how many of those civilians were unarmed or unthreatening to the cops?
I don't know about you, but if someone points a gun at the police, I think they deserve to be shot...
I'm not disputing that mistakes are made - police are after all humans - but the odds of a law abiding citizen getting shot by the police (even those citizens of color) are much, much lower than the odds of their getting shot by a criminal.

feueraxt
1st Jan 2018, 10:09
And how many of those civilians were unarmed or unthreatening to the cops?
I don't know about you, but if someone points a gun at the police, I think they deserve to be shot...
I'm not disputing that mistakes are made - police are after all humans - but the odds of a law abiding citizen getting shot by the police (even those citizens of color) are much, much lower than the odds of their getting shot by a criminal.

Except that in this case the victim didn't point a gun at the police. He didn't have a gun on him. There wasn't even a gun in the house. The cop killed him anyway.

Your need to observe that an innocent person would be in more danger of being shot by a criminal than a police officer is quite telling. In most countries this would be taken for granted.

tdracer
1st Jan 2018, 21:24
Except that in this case the victim didn't point a gun at the police. He didn't have a gun on him. There wasn't even a gun in the house. The cop killed him anyway.

Your need to observe that an innocent person would be in more danger of being shot by a criminal than a police officer is quite telling. In most countries this would be taken for granted.
Good job at taking the response out of context - yes in this case the police made a horrible error and shot an unarmed, innocent person. My point was this was a rare exception - most people shot by police are armed and threating, but those don't make national news.


As for the second part of your response, it was mainly directed at this post by Gertrude:
If the biggest threat out there on the street is armed cops, as now seems to be the case, and the American Way is to arm yourself against threats out there on the street and shoot first and worry about the paperwork later, then I am simply being logical.

Crepello
2nd Jan 2018, 14:34
He didn't have a gun on him. There wasn't even a gun in the house. The cop killed him anyway.
Wow - you've established that the cop had cleared the subject of weapons, cleared the house, then returned to shoot the subject? You should take your evidence of this new timeline to the authorities..... :ugh:

the police made a horrible error and shot an unarmed, innocent person
No error. An immediate threat presented itself, given opportunities to surrender, yet chose to enhance the level of threat - and was rightly neutralized. Basic officer safety demands that all contacts must be considered armed until determined otherwise. Innocence/guilt is a matter for the courts, and nowhere near an LEO's radar at the time of subject contact.

KenV
2nd Jan 2018, 15:48
Once again, clueless bigots ranting on a subject they know nothing about and using the occasion to slam an entire nation and its populace.

radeng
2nd Jan 2018, 16:01
I know a US policeman in Wisconsin. He's actually a detective these days and says his biggest worry if he's ever with uniformed police comes if they draw their guns because he says that very, very few are really competent to even be trusted with a gun. Before he joined the police, he was a firearms instructor in the Marine Corps, so can be assumed to know what he's talking about.

KenV
2nd Jan 2018, 16:29
I know a US policeman in Wisconsin. He's actually a detective these days and says his biggest worry if he's ever with uniformed police comes if they draw their guns because he says that very, very few are really competent to even be trusted with a gun. Before he joined the police, he was a firearms instructor in the Marine Corps, so can be assumed to know what he's talking about.Hmmmm. The cop that pulled the trigger in the case that is the subject of this thread clearly hit his target. So I'm not sure how the above relates to this case.

KenV
4th Jan 2018, 16:14
Who are the Seppos picking on now?Case in point.

Crepello
4th Jan 2018, 18:03
Right? Wary of being given "a little time away from this discussion" by the mods - as has happened in the past, when I've deigned to disagree with the house's opinion on firearm law - I'd have phrased my reply thus:

Who are the [insert your preferred racist slur here] picking on now?

Ah - if only I counted myself among the millions who make a good living from being offended!