TR mandatory

[Journey Man]

I’ve reached the stage where I don’t feel I’m progressing in expanding my skill set at my current operation, and there are no opportunities to grow into higher managerial roles for the foreseeable future. I’m a line trainer and middle manager for a large European operator.

I have a reasonably good network of colleagues in various operators, but nothing that’s borne fruit. I’m looking to move and see there are a good number of adverts out there for jobs, but all require type ratings. Are there that many experienced guys sitting on the sidelines with ratings looking for work? I imagine when an advert goes out, the role is probably filled or the person already chosen and the advert just fills the legal requirement. I don’t want to waste a DFO’s time by responding to adverts I don’t fit the bill for, and most adverts that’s only the type rating.

Anyone else cracked this nut?

[what next]

Anyone else cracked this nut?

I don't think there is a nut to crack here. "Type rating required" these days only means that the employer is not willing to pay for one.

[galaxy flyer]

And enough gullible wannabes are willing to pay for one in the hope Mr. Big will hire him or her. Mr. Big, being ignorant of things aeronautical and smart about money, hires these inexperienced wannabes to learn while he sips chambers over the ocean. Crazy stuff.

GF

[Marlon Brando]

I’ve reached the stage where I don’t feel I’m progressing in expanding my skill set at my current operation....l

play Tennis
Sail
Start a rock band

What I mean is it's an endless process. Even work as an astronaut is boring at some point.
Pilot is a great job, but that's all it is...

[Journey Man]

play Tennis
Sail
Start a rock band

What I mean is it's an endless process. Even work as an astronaut is boring at some point.
Pilot is a great job, but that's all it is...

I’m quite busy outside of work with academic studies and various personal goals, so feel that this is, as stated, a work issue.

I realise that any career is an endless process of learning, but could you concede that it’s feasible that seeking a different working environment might be an acceptable solution to keeping an enquiring mind and personal drive satisfied? I realise many are happy to punch out fifteen minute after on blocks and play golf, but that’s not me unfortunately. Wish that it were.

More generally, non-scheduled operations seem to be healthier than scheduled (airline) operations with respect to not many buying type ratings. I suspect this is because narrow body type ratings are relatively cheap in comparison, providing a welcome barrier to entry however even in a time of demand the requisite type rating required condition seems to be increasing. My Dassault rating was eye watering enough, made possible through a bond. Maybe changing careers within the industry to a full time office role is the key.

[CL300]

There is always a lot of cases, you have indeed the 'legal' advertisement... Usually large corporations with an HR department, running scripts..

You have the lo-co operators like GlobeAir making people pay for their type, bonding them on top, and firing them at will.

You have the owner whom cannot understand why people do not want to fly his GLEX on a 365 days on roster for 5000$ based in Africa.

And you have normal companies, for which, the opportunities are scarce since the pilots will retire with the plane/company/owner.

A Flying job is 60% Type Rating 35 % luck 5% competence...unfortunately, it used to be a time where competence and experience were at the front end.. today is saving peanuts..

[Dan_Brown]

TR Mandatory.

I am afraid so. Long gone are the days where flying skills and experience kept you ahead of the game. As pointed out previously, profits come before all else. What about safety? Doesn't even come into it now. No previous means just that. You are only as good as your last flight in this business.

[uberwang]

There is always a lot of cases, you have indeed the 'legal' advertisement... Usually large corporations with an HR department, running scripts..

You have the lo-co operators like GlobeAir making people pay for their type, bonding them on top, and firing them at will.

You have the owner whom cannot understand why people do not want to fly his GLEX on a 365 days on roster for 5000$ based in Africa.

And you have normal companies, for which, the opportunities are scarce since the pilots will retire with the plane/company/owner.

A Flying job is 60% Type Rating 35 % luck 5% competence...unfortunately, it used to be a time where competence and experience were at the front end.. today is saving peanuts..

All these jets falling out of the sky the last 10 years because of the only 5% competence you speak of. All these kids that bought type ratings crashing left right and centre. The industry has changed and is changing again as we speak. It is what it is as they say.

[CargoOne]

All these jets falling out of the sky the last 10 years because of the only 5% competence you speak of. All these kids that bought type ratings crashing left right and centre.

This is total BS to say the least. Statistics is quite opposite.

[arketip]

Whoosh...;)

[CL300]

Have you flown corporate with 200 hours pilots ? I did....not good...

Correction .. ou standing in pushing buttons efficiency, but scared like **** when time comes to use a no-standard mode ( not to name it V/S) lol

[uberwang]

This is total BS to say the least. Statistics is quite opposite.

Lol unless I’m missing your point I think you are missing my point. I was pointing out that despite all the low houred pilots mentioned, aircraft are NOT statistically dropping out of the sky more these days. Every single one of us was a 200 hour pilot at some point and many started on bigger jets then what we fly. People like to complain all the time.. it is what it is..

[galaxy flyer]

Yes, a 200-hour pilot can fly a bizjet around without “dropping out of the sky”; as long as nothing goes wrong. Now, add in the normal tasks of managing the bags, the handler or FBO relations, servicing the plane, and top it all with a couple of abnormals like maximum range trip, a mountainous airport for the first time, an international clearance problem, 200-550m in snow crosswind landing and it becomes more problematic. I’ve been where CL300 comes from and it ain’t pretty. You’re flying solo!

GF

[His dudeness]

I realize now, that I once had only 200 hrs too.

I apologize to my captain. I´m sorry not to have been born with 10.000hrs.

Come on guys get a grip. WE have to TRAIN em. Just as we have been trained.

[CL300]

I had this discussion on another forum, yes we have been trained as well, and yes everyone of us went trough every single hour including the 200, 1000, 3000, 5000, 8000, 10000...;BUT..... on the last 20 years there was a dramatic fall in performance, overall knowledge, attitude, etc... May be I was not lucky with the guys on the right, or the outfits I flew for were just recruiting on the low side, or else; this is just my experience through around 50 different people as first officers.
And with all the introspection that i am capable of, i cannot see me doing ( or not doing) what they are doing ( or not doing today) when I was 250 hours old ( before it was 250 hours to have a commercial ticket, at least in the USA)

[Globally Challenged]

Take another look at Fate is the Hunter - experienced pilots have always deemed the new blood to be of worse standard than themselves and the good old days were always better - and that’s long before the days of today’s aged sky gods.

[bafanguy]

Have you flown corporate with 200 hours pilots ? I did....not good...

I admit almost no knowledge about corp flying but what kind of corp operator hires 200 hr pilots ?

[what next]

I admit almost no knowledge about corp flying but what kind of corp operator hires 200 hr pilots ?

We are certainly not talking about single pilot operations here but multicrew. In my part of the world it is quite common to hire copilots (or "first officers" which is a term that really doesn't fit our kind of operations at all) straight from the flying school. Some of them are good, some are excellent and very few perform poorly.

In my 25 years in commercial flying I have flown with pilots whose experience ranges from 0 (as I also am an instructor) to 20.000+ hours. I have come to the conclusion that flying experience accounts maybe for 30% of the quality of a pilot. The rest is aptitude for the job and determination. I have flown with quite a few 3000-5000 hour pilots, some of them captains, whom I regard to be worse pilots than some gifted 200 hour newbie and with whom I never want to get into a difficult situation.

[galaxy flyer]

None in the US, but not uncommon in Europe. I had an Englishman in my Global class that had 300-ish in Cherokees buying a Global rating. Cost a bunch in extra sims plus the $75,000 in the “rack rate” charge. With less than ATP min time, the training center wouldn’t guarantee the rating. He was planning on contract work, no job offer.

While I agree in part, Globally Challenged, but my experience is clouded by the above. I had plenty of 300 hour pilots in the USAF in C-5s but they were well trained and eager to learn. For the most part, my corporate pilots were experienced enough it wasn’t an issue for operating the plane, just the other details. Our least experienced pilot was an RJ F/O with 3,000 hours-did well and learned quick. One or two RJ pilots just thought about seniority and when they could upgrade.

Agreed, what next, attitude and determination is 80%, those pilots learn quick, we just rarely see anyone with that little time in a jet in the US. I thought quality had dropped badly when resumes only had 3,000 hours of jet on them and no international. At one time, we had Presidential Flight, Snowbirds, 2,000 hours of Global time to choose from, now more like 2,000 to 3,000 hours of RJ or 1,000 to 1,500 of bizjet time.

GF

[CL300]

In Europe, all the entry level operators of biz jets are hiring right from the flight school.

And yes there is some good guys, but the average is going down on the last 10/15 years.

And this is basics, not even flying, couldn't read a Notam, have no clues about how a TAF is working.. And we are staying in Europe !!....VHF and GPS flying...

[uberwang]

Yes, a 200-hour pilot can fly a bizjet around without “dropping out of the sky”; as long as nothing goes wrong. Now, add in the normal tasks of managing the bags, the handler or FBO relations, servicing the plane, and top it all with a couple of abnormals like maximum range trip, a mountainous airport for the first time, an international clearance problem, 200-550m in snow crosswind landing and it becomes more problematic. I’ve been where CL300 comes from and it ain’t pretty. You’re flying solo!

GF

People really do over estimate the complexity of baggage loading, ground handling etc. A couple of legs and it’s covered. As His Dudeness said, we have to train and if you approach a newbie with the attitude you have then they potentially become poor themselves down the line. Lead by example, teach and train.. And realise you never become to experienced to slacken your efforts, never too good for a newbie.. when I was a newbie I was in awe of the guys that handled the all those conditions you mention above and continue to aspire to perform like them.

[His dudeness]

And yes there is some good guys, but the average is going down on the last 10/15 years.

That would coincide with EASA coming in on flight crew training. Have you told em ?

Or has it more to do with the fact it just becomes more and more expensive and almost impossible to the average dude that went to the glider flying club etcetc. ?

[what next]

That would coincide with EASA coming in on flight crew training.

I have been a flying instructor since 1992. First under German national regulations, then JAR FCL, then EU FCL now EASA part FCL. The changes in the training syllabi and flying hour requirements have been minimal - at least in Germany - so this can not be the prime cause.

But in my observation the type of person who wants to be a pilot has changed a lot. In "my" days almost every student pilot had started to build model aircraft in their youth and/or flown gliders at an aeroclub at the earliest possible legal age. Many trained in a different profession first and worked beside taking their flying lessons. The average age of flying students was between 25 and 30 then. Now the majority are 18 or 19 year olds, many of which have not worked a single day in their life. They spend their classroom time playing around with their smartphones and study for the exam (which they can sit as often as they want now as opposed to our old regulations where two fails would exclude you for good - here is one real change brought about by JAR/EASA) by memorising the correct answer. Luckily there still are some exceptions and some of them even find their way into business aviation!

[His dudeness]

Max, thats exactly what I meant. I have worked my way up, sometimes doing 5,6,7 hrs of airplane washing and waxing after an 8 hrs shift in the factory and working on week ends etc.

Plus I was being sarcastic about the EASA. The new rules have made the ATPL way more expensive - without changing all that much.

[lucille]

There's no substitute for 1500 hours single pilot IFR in a light twin plus some bush flying experience.
In my experience there is the odd unicorn who does well without that base but as a general rule, for global corporate flying, you just cant beat experience at making your won decisions and being alone in the dark.

[galaxy flyer]

Yes, bring Darwin back to aviation. But, there is something to bringing back people that want to fly and will do anything for the chance to do so.

Uberwang,

I’ve done thousands of hours of instruction, mil and civil. In the military, I’ve taken two lieutenants with 300 hours each to Europe on the NATS or to Australia, but motivating them wasn’t an issue. I thought the T-6 and T-1 programs in the USAF turned out well prepared pilots- motiviated, knowledgeable and ready. They quickly understood CRM, the various few positions’ jobs and took responsibility. It was because they were trained in a pass/fail system that didn’t mind tossing the unable or unwilling. This is not th3 case in many civil Flight schools and just reciting “the book” doesn’t cut it in the real world where application of the book is required.

If pilots aren’t hacking it, yes, captains need to provide training. If motivation is the issue, the door is next.


GF

[His dudeness]

Yes, bring Darwin back to aviation.

Thanks GF, that made my day.

Off with our junior F/O to meet my fate (hopefully not...)

[what next]

There's no substitute for 1500 hours single pilot IFR in a light twin plus some bush flying experience.

I didn't do any bush flying (no bushes in range unfortunately) but I did my fair share of that single pilot IFR twin flying. Eight up in a 20 year old C421 at night over the Alps and in weather in which I would refuse to fly a jet today. Did that make me a better pilot? I doubt. A survivor maybe, together with the other seven unsuspecting people I carried on those flights.
Luckily those days are gone as are commercially operated piston twins. An entry level aircraft for a newbie in the year 2018 is a CJ2 or a Mustang or a Phenom 100. Even the KingAirs are a dying species around here. I really would have loved to start my flying career on a Citation 1 (or whatever there was in 1992) and just bypassed those piston twins and turboprops. Would I be a worse pilot now beacause of that? I stongly doubt it. I am who I am regardless of what I fly. And the same is true for every other pilot.

[Dan_Brown]

There is no substitute for air experience. A lot of that experience does have a tendancey to teach us what not to do, also.

Air experience cannot be learnt in the classroom. You cant teach ability or proven, good desision making.

[what next]

There is no substitute for air experience.

Yes. But that experience does not need to be gained in a (now) 35 year old twin piston death trap. Any right hand seat position in any decent and safe aeroplane anywhere on this planet is a good place to get flying experience.

[Dan_Brown]

Correct, however I did not specify an a/c type.

[733driver]

Couldn't agree more with "what next". Too often, especially in the U.S. do I hear the opinion that flying old, clapped out, poorly maintained piston twins in bad weather with lot's of commercial pressure is good preparation for a better job down the line. Wrong. It's just plain dangerous. We all make enough mistakes during our training and more importantly once out of training and all those mistakes teach us valuable lessons but one should not have to tempt fait by engaging in such cowboy flying.

[Dan_Brown]

Couldn't agree more with "what next". Too often, especially in the U.S. do I hear the opinion that flying old, clapped out, poorly maintained piston twins in bad weather with lot's of commercial pressure is good preparation for a better job down the line. Wrong. It's just plain dangerous. We all make enough mistakes during our training and more importantly once out of training and all those mistakes teach us valuable lessons but one should not have to tempt fait by engaging in such cowboy flying.

Not all pilots, outside a very rigid SOP structure, as in an airline environment, or large outfit are cowboys.

Air experience does place one in a better position to stand up to commercial pressure.

[galaxy flyer]

Couldn't agree more with "what next". Too often, especially in the U.S. do I hear the opinion that flying old, clapped out, poorly maintained piston twins in bad weather with lot's of commercial pressure is good preparation for a better job down the line. Wrong. It's just plain dangerous. We all make enough mistakes during our training and more importantly once out of training and all those mistakes teach us valuable lessons but one should not have to tempt fait by engaging in such cowboy flying.

Largely because that’s how most civilian background pilots in the US came up. I wasn’t joking about “bring Darwin back”; I lost four friends whilst flying checks for the Federal Reserve Bank. Then, 7 more in military accidents. Speaking of, “flying old, clapped out, poorly maintained piston twins in bad weather with lot's of ... pressure is good preparation for a better job down the line”; I flew the old, clapped out C -5 thru 13 engine shutdowns, three on the NATS. I, at one or other, ran 80% of the emergency procedures often under less than optimum conditions. Once I put a new squadron pilot in the seat on a base training flight. Downwind for home base ILS, up for a visual. As he got belted in, I said, “no simulated emergencies, just give me a couple of touch and goes to full stop”. Thumbs up, then the engineer says, we’re losing oil pressure on #3. Oops, “pilot, you’re now getting an OEI full stop”.

You can’t buy this experience. It’s NOT “Cowboy”; it’s real world stuff. Those lessons of single pilot IMC with steam gauges stayed with me thru my career. Guess what, not much fazed me later in a Global.

GF

[733driver]

Not all pilots, outside a very rigid SOP structure, as in an airline environment, or large outfit are cowboys.


And I didn't say that at all.

[g450cpt]

Let's put this in perspective. You are down route and one of your company airplanes is deadheading to your location. Your wife and children have a chance to ride on the plane to visit you. Who would you rather have up front if the $h!t hits the fan and things go sideways. I for one don't want some 300 hour newbie that paid for a type rating trying to sort things out with my family in the back.

While I agree, someone has to train them, I would rather start with a FO that has some real world experience under his belt. I realize that long ago I was a 300 hour newbie but I didn't expect to jump into the right seat of a jet at that point in my career. I did the whole flight instructor thing, single pilot light twin charters, single pilot turboprops, etc... (By the way, all structured, no "cowboy stuff") When I did move on to multi pilot airplanes I had a solid foundation of stick and rudder skills, knew what CRM was, and most of all, a good attitude toward the "experienced guy in the left seat that was training me at that level. I'm pretty sure he was pleased that he wasn't starting from zero.

My 0.02 worth. Carry on.

[His dudeness]

I´d like to submit, that we are all discussing from slightly different angles...

Going down the USAF route is complete different from self founded, say, in Germany. French circumstance were vastly different fro the british etcetc.

In reality the PPL, CPL/IFR, FI then ATPL route was maybe more a typical way in the US for civil pilots than it was over here in Europe. In Germany we have had a relative big influx from former fighter pilots at, out of the service at age 42. And so on.

However, I don´t think the "quality" has changed all that much. Some are less motivated, some are more of the knob pusher type, some are plainly good and better than I ever was.... but then the dinosaurs got extinct and not the newer, smarter types of species. Maybe its now just "our turn" now or soon ?

[Dan_Brown]

G450

Agreed.

The criteria I set was this. Captain, could I sleep at night knowing my love ones were on board with said Capt. F/O, same as above if the Capt was incapacitated.

[galaxy flyer]

His dudeness,

Completely agree. Those of us from the older era think our ways are the only ways, but, if we’re honest, we know that’s not true. We thought “glass” cockpits were (and are) a revolution, but if a pilot started out in G1000 Cessna 172, why would he need to know how to fly steam gauges? Professionally, he won’t ever fly them. It was a nice talent, but as useful as a flight engineer’s license. Individuals vary, yes, but to say the new generation is “not like we were” just shows our age.

GF

[Global Aviator]

Lots of good comments and yes times are changing.

Glass cockpit, new diesel piston, etc.

My points always been that without some real command time under your belt you never really know what sh&t hitting the fan and having to deal with it is all about.

That’s why certain airlines used to want 500 command. Now ICUS seems to suffice.