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RedhillPhil
24th Dec 2017, 20:42
When did actresses change sex? There seems to be a growing trend for actresses to be introduced and introduce themselves as actors.
Does this mean that such persons will not be accepting best actress awards at the various bunfights?
No, I didn't think so.

treadigraph
24th Dec 2017, 20:51
As a former native of Penzance I am no less puzzled even though I might be persuaded to support their right to identify as neither one thing nor t'other.

On the plus side, amongst the various ales I bought up to Suffolk for my b-i-l to enjoy over Christmas was a bottle of Proper Job. Plus a dozen bottles of Rattler for me...

owen meaney
24th Dec 2017, 21:08
It was/is part of the push to de-gender various titles. Thus we have Chair Person and Fisher etc etc, although I see your point of female act-things of taking on the male honorific.

G-CPTN
24th Dec 2017, 21:09
Firefighters.

treadigraph
24th Dec 2017, 21:18
It's the old joke about a well known northern city/conurbation being renamed Personchester.

Incidentally, I was slapped down by my sister for referring to some female friends of mine as "the girls". I later asked various female friends whether they minded being referred to as girls and they all replied that they were perfectly happy to be so described. The youngest would be late 40s, the eldest about 60. I go drinking with the boys, youngest is 52, eldest 75.

Ogre
24th Dec 2017, 21:32
Incidentally, I was slapped down by my sister for referring to some female friends of mine as "the girls".

I've found that below 16 females don't like to be referred to as "girls" because they want to be seen to be older, but over a certain age (which depends on the audience, but generally the older the better) the term "girls" tends to get giggles, laughs, and a better response in terms.

To refer to any group of females with an age greater than 16 and less than 50 as "ladies" as I was taught to do is getting to be dangerous.....

And to answer the original question, we used to have "Comediennes" such as Victoria Wood, now we have male and female "comics". This is confusing because that was a word I always used to describe an illustrated magazine for young people (which are not to be confused with "graphic novels" which are comics for older people).

Flypro
24th Dec 2017, 21:36
Oh no, you didn't forget the Betty Stogs did you Treadigraph ??!!

treadigraph
24th Dec 2017, 21:48
I didn't, Tescos aint got it. I wanted to get him (rather late in the day) some local Surrey brews, Shere Drop and anything by Dorking Brewery and Westerhams for preference. But they don't seem to stock those any more. Got some Fursty Ferret, Bath Gem and something Goose-ish.

His daughter lives in St Agnes so Cornish ales are regulars for a Suffolk dwelling Northampton lad who likes Harvey's best of all.

Ancient Observer
24th Dec 2017, 22:31
SWMBO was a solicitor. Her close mates, there are 4 of them, all graduates, all 60 +, all with high power hubbies, always call themselves the girls. They go out weekly, and their watsapp group is called the ******* girls. (Not a rude word, but I don't want to id them!

treadigraph
24th Dec 2017, 22:39
Ogre, I thought adult comics were the Sun, Mail, Express, Mirror and Guardian...

RedhillPhil
24th Dec 2017, 22:47
Forgot, don't forget that all young sexes tend to be addressed and respond to "guys". The bloke in Nero's in Truro look quite offended when I told him that my then 69 year old wife was not a guy.

treadigraph
24th Dec 2017, 23:00
I dislike being referred to as "dude". I thought it was a redundant hippy term from the 60s. I don't mind "mate", "chap", "feller" (or "fellow" for K'n'C's imaginary adversaries) or "you bastard", but "dude" is awful. Prats.

Pontius Navigator
24th Dec 2017, 23:04
Phil, our daughter, 42, refers to we aged Ps as 'you Guys'. Yuk.

I don't necessarily mind being call Guy though I don't subscribe to 'Old Guy's Rule'.

At least the RAF has 'airmen' of both genders.

ChocksAwayChaps
24th Dec 2017, 23:37
I always ask, with a smile, that servers not refer to me as 'guys'. They are astounded.

ShyTorque
25th Dec 2017, 00:23
Let's face it, calling everyone the same is safer because no-one is sure what gender many actors are/were/want to be.

Ogre
25th Dec 2017, 00:49
I always ask, with a smile, that servers not refer to me as 'guys'. They are astounded.

The alternative of "folks" makes it sound as is we're all hillbillies!

When asked for a name to go with my order in a coffee shop once replied "Oi you" as I am happy to respond to that. When it came time to collect said drink, the barrista was under the impression I was Asian...

Oh and Treadigraph, the newpapers in question are "tabloids", a word that probably shares it's roots with other "oids" like "paranoid" and "haemorrhoid".

G-CPTN
25th Dec 2017, 01:03
The woman who 'mans' the enquiry desk at our local supermarket addresses me (and, no doubt, others) as 'flower'.
It quite warms my heart . . .

"Alright, flower?"

Tankertrashnav
25th Dec 2017, 01:19
I notice that a lot of older actresses still like to refer to themselves as such. I remember June Whitfield being introduced as "the well - known actor" by a right-on feminist presenter on Woman's Hour (it could get boring in my shop!) . June made a point of referring to herself as an actress several times in the course of the interview, which I thought was a nice put-down.

Refusal to differentiate can lead to confusion. Until Cameron Diaz came on the scene the only Camerons I had come across were blokes, including one of my nephews. I was puzzled when I saw a picture of a new film actor called Cameron Diaz - I assumed they'd printed the wrong photo!

Weeds round the prop
25th Dec 2017, 05:37
I was addressed as 'babe' a few weeks ago whilst being breathalised by a lovely cop-ess. I went to the pub to celebrate.

Gertrude the Wombat
25th Dec 2017, 09:57
Let's face it, calling everyone the same is safer because no-one is sure what gender many actors are/were/want to be.
Same with salutations - when knocking on strangers' doors sensible politicians address people by "first name / last name" rather than attempting to guess whether it's Mr, Ms, Mx or whatever.

Case in point. There are an elderly man and a women living round the corner from me sharing a house. They both have the same surname. The council write them letters addressed to "Mr & Mrs", which pisses them off somewhat - they're brother and sister.

Pontius Navigator
25th Dec 2017, 10:31
A friend of mine on a cruise was Mr and Dr. They assumed two men and set out single beds. The doctor of mathematics was not amused.

OTOH or local GP refused to call those with a PhD, doctor.

Gertrude the Wombat
25th Dec 2017, 10:49
A friend of mine on a cruise was Mr and Dr. They assumed two men and set out single beds. The doctor of mathematics was not amused.
This family is Mr and Dr. We do however have different surnames, and these days different nationalities, which has confused people when Mr shows up with a UK passport and Dr shows up with an Irish passport.
OTOH or local GP refused to call those with a PhD, doctor.
In Cambridge some doctors seem to use "Dr" as the default for addressing patients, as they think it's the title most likely to be correct (at least when talking to "obviously" educated middle class patients).

funfly
25th Dec 2017, 12:14
Some schools have been directed to stop addressing the kids as boys or girls in order not to offend anyone with gender problems. Fking stupid methinks.

Living here in the North West, I was amused by the hospital entry form asking me the politically correct question of how I would like to be addressed followed by all the staff actually calling me 'darling' or 'ducks'.

Me, I tend to call most other people 'Mate' but this is because I can never remember names so it's a safe option.

Gertrude the Wombat
25th Dec 2017, 13:35
Me, I tend to call most other people 'Mate' but this is because I can never remember names so it's a safe option.
Once Upon A Time a then girlfriend called me "darling".

"You once called a man the wrong name, didn't you?" I accused. She went very red and talked about something else.

VP959
25th Dec 2017, 13:49
This family is Mr and Dr. We do however have different surnames, and these days different nationalities, which has confused people when Mr shows up with a UK passport and Dr shows up with an Irish passport.

In Cambridge some doctors seem to use "Dr" as the default for addressing patients, as they think it's the title most likely to be correct (at least when talking to "obviously" educated middle class patients).

There's also the problem that when you go to see your GP he/she often assumes that you're a medical doctor, so launches into "professional to professional" mode, rather than "professional to patient" mode. It's far easier to register with the NHS using the title Mr, as it saves having to explain that you know next to sod all about medicine, then getting a confused look from the GP.............

old,not bold
25th Dec 2017, 14:30
Now that we've drifted into titles, as opposed to male/female designators, I wouild like to ask if anyone else gets the enjoyment I do from selecting a title on the BA website as well as, curiously enough, the National Express website. The list reflects the British obsession with titles, so I can choose to be a Lord, a Professor, plain Mister, a knight, a Right Hon, a Viscount, a Rabbi, a Rev, a Baron, a Dr, or a Capt.

Of course it makes no difference at any point in the process, no matter which I choose, and I've tried them all several times. But it's a tiny part of my protest against titles and those who think they're important. (And against awards to civil servants for making it to early retirement without dying in a career characterised by its record of achieving precisely nothing with masterful incompetence, ignorance and stupidity.)

VP959
25th Dec 2017, 14:56
Years ago my younger brother filled in the title "Reverend" on his driving licence application form. Apparently no one checked and he was duly issued with a licence with that title on it.

He did it as a joke, but it turned out to be beneficial. He was riding back from Oxford one night and was stopped by the police for having a "defective silencer" (he'd removed the baffles from the megaphone exhaust on his Tiger Cub). The police asked to see his licence and as soon as they saw the title, changed their attitude, suggested that the Reverend should get his exhaust system checked as soon as possible and let him go on his way.

Trossie
25th Dec 2017, 15:13
Doing some mail order work some time ago some of us got to mentioning 'gender neutral' titles. One of our group 'won' when they they had an order for "Rev Dr (Ret) ... "!!

.. the barrista was under the impression ...Always been amused seeing a woman with that job-title of 'barrista', would a man then have the job-title of 'barristus'? (But then maybe the original term, to keep in with 'gender neutrality' is a 'neuter' plural?)

treadigraph
25th Dec 2017, 17:08
Oh and Treadigraph, the newpapers in question are "tabloids", a word that probably shares it's roots with other "oids" like "paranoid" and "haemorrhoid".

Seems reasonable as much of the content is spheroids... ;)

westernhero
25th Dec 2017, 22:55
Bit of a minefield, calling a woman Mrs Smith got me a " don't call me Mrs Smith, I've just divorced the bastard " . Calling another Ms Jones got me a " oh, don't say that I'm not a lesbian, Miss Jones please". Can't win.

Trossie
25th Dec 2017, 23:00
Can't win.I wouldn't try to... It would be Mrs Smith and Miss Jones for me, sod what they think. I know that they wouldn't care two hoots about what I think!! (Talking about those two 'hoots'...!)

M.Mouse
25th Dec 2017, 23:13
Are people with a doctorate so insecure they feel the need to have Dr. in front of the names?

I cringe when I receive mail adressed to Captain.... I no longer hold that rank, which was/is meaningless outside of the airline I worked for anyway!

I too hate being addressed collectively as guys when in a restaurant. Similar to being told to 'Enjoy!' followed by the obligatory interruption of 'How is your food?' 5 minutes later.

Gertrude the Wombat
25th Dec 2017, 23:25
There's also the problem that when you go to see your GP he/she often assumes that you're a medical doctor, so launches into "professional to professional" mode, rather than "professional to patient" mode. It's far easier to register with the NHS using the title Mr, as it saves having to explain that you know next to sod all about medicine, then getting a confused look from the GP.............
Depends on the GP I guess. My GP very quickly works out what I do and don't know about immunology or genetics or whatever and pitches what he's saying at the right level.

My wife's doctor OTOH did give her the links to the academic studies on the efficacy of the various treatment options, but then looked slightly bemused (although she rapidly recovered) when we started by saying "well, we've consulted a professional statistician, and his view of the metastudy data is ...". Well FFS of course we consulted a professional statistician, given that we've got one in the family: we don't have the background to make life and death decisions on our own from that level of technical information.

Trossie
25th Dec 2017, 23:33
Are people with a doctorate so insecure they feel the need to have Dr. in front of the names?

I cringe when I receive mail dressed to Captain...."Dr" is a situation that involves effort and recognition in the world out there. 'Captain' is a situation that involves a position with a particular employer. In our family we have both and the 'Dr' is quite justified!

RedhillPhil
26th Dec 2017, 00:09
Bit of a minefield, calling a woman Mrs Smith got me a " don't call me Mrs Smith, I've just divorced the bastard " . Calling another Ms Jones got me a " oh, don't say that I'm not a lesbian, Miss Jones please". Can't win.


There's another one that puzzles me. So many women who were say, Susan Smith marry Terry Jones and become Mrs. Jones. Five years later they divorce but she still calls herself Susan Jones. My sister is guilty of this. They divorced thirty years ago but she still uses his name.

Tankertrashnav
26th Dec 2017, 00:54
Doing my Christmas cards I noticed I was still adhering to the old practice of addressing the envelopes as Mr & Mrs J. Smith (or whatever), using the husband's initial when sending to married couples. It occurred to me this might well offend some younger married women. Also when sending a card to the widow of an old chum I addressed her as Mrs A. Brown, using his initial, not hers. Was that correct?

Effluent Man
26th Dec 2017, 05:40
[QUOTE=VP959;10001207]Years ago my younger brother filled in the title "Reverend" on his driving licence application form. Apparently no one checked and he was duly issued with a licence with that title on it.

In the 80's I bought a petrol filling station from Mobil to use as a car sales site. It came with this old boy called Vic who had worked there for years and was known to everyone as "Vic Mobil". He used to deal in goats from the local market and I sold him a Morris Marina van for transporting them. I filled in the V5 as Victor Mobil R**** . Swansea issued the new log book like that and he never noticed.

Pom Pax
26th Dec 2017, 08:23
I know a clever G.P. who maintains that PhDs are the genuine doctors not the medical ones.

owen meaney
26th Dec 2017, 09:08
In the Australian Army, depending on which corps one is enlisted in they have different titles for Private rank. One is Craftsman for those in the RAEME corp (equivalent to REME in British Army). Moves are afoot to change that title to non gender specific, although the female craftsman wish to retain that title.

VP959
26th Dec 2017, 09:10
Personally I don't much like those who routinely use qualification titles, post nominals or service ranks, outside the workplace.

One observation I've made over the years is that those that do often have some deep character flaw and that using such things is their way of trying to show the world that they are somehow "better" than others. In my view, respect is earned by the way people behave and what they do, not what title, rank or qualifications they happen to have acquired.

The worst examples I can remember are a retired Sqn Ldr who was a civvy, in an RO 2 post (a straightforward desk admin job) who insisted on wearing his old uniform to work and being addressed as Sqn Ldr all the time (fair enough, by the letter of the rules he was entitled to use the rank post retirement, even though very few people do now). He and I fell out when I insisted on always referring to him as Sqn Ldr ****** RAF (Retired), his official rank, on anything I sent him. The second example is an inadequate and pretty useless individual who struggled for a decade or more to acquire qualifications for the sake of it. He insisted on using them in full, so was Dr ***** EUR ING. If he had been competent I doubt people would have paid much notice, but frankly he was incompetent enough to being close to being dangerous.

VP959
26th Dec 2017, 09:15
Depends on the GP I guess. My GP very quickly works out what I do and don't know about immunology or genetics or whatever and pitches what he's saying at the right level.




The problem we have is that our small GP practice merged with two others, as many seem to be doing now, so no one now has their "own" GP. There are around 20 GPs in the practice now, and if you only see a doctor infrequently the chances are you will see a different one each time.

yellowtriumph
26th Dec 2017, 11:22
Personally I don't much like those who routinely use qualification titles, post nominals or service ranks, outside the workplace.

One observation I've made over the years is that those that do often have some deep character flaw and that using such things is their way of trying to show the world that they are somehow "better" than others. In my view, respect is earned by the way people behave and what they do, not what title, rank or qualifications they happen to have acquired.

The worst examples I can remember are a retired Sqn Ldr who was a civvy, in an RO 2 post (a straightforward desk admin job) who insisted on wearing his old uniform to work and being addressed as Sqn Ldr all the time (fair enough, by the letter of the rules he was entitled to use the rank post retirement, even though very few people do now). He and I fell out when I insisted on always referring to him as Sqn Ldr ****** RAF (Retired), his official rank, on anything I sent him. The second example is an inadequate and pretty useless individual who struggled for a decade or more to acquire qualifications for the sake of it. He insisted on using them in full, so was Dr ***** EUR ING. If he had been competent I doubt people would have paid much notice, but frankly he was incompetent enough to being close to being dangerous.

As a result of various mergers I ended up entitled to use ‘Fellow of a particular Institution’ and various others after my name. I never thought I’d really earned it and never ever used it.

After retirement I gave the Insititution up, a couple of years later I sort of regretted doing so because I was not now entitled to use the award despite the fact I never used it or had any intention of ever doing so in the future. Truly muddled thinking I know.

RedhillPhil
26th Dec 2017, 11:32
Doing my Christmas cards I noticed I was still adhering to the old practice of addressing the envelopes as Mr & Mrs J. Smith (or whatever), using the husband's initial when sending to married couples. It occurred to me this might well offend some younger married women. Also when sending a card to the widow of an old chum I addressed her as Mrs A. Brown, using his initial, not hers. Was that correct?


Yes it is. If a woman marries and takes her husband's name she takes the name. My late wife was Mrs. P. *** but working she was Miss A. ******. If Jane Smith marries John Wilson she is either Miss Jane Smith or Mrs. John Wilson. It may seem an anathema to to-day's younger generation but that is the correct etiquette.

Tankertrashnav
26th Dec 2017, 11:37
Thanks Phil, I'll stick to that then :ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
26th Dec 2017, 11:59
If Jane Smith marries John Wilson she is either Miss Jane Smith or Mrs. John Wilson. It may seem an anathema to to-day's younger generation but that is the correct etiquette.
But when John Wilson has died the widow becomes Mrs Jane Wilson, I was brought up to believe.

M.Mouse
26th Dec 2017, 13:56
"Dr" is a situation that involves effort and recognition in the world out there. 'Captain' is a situation that involves a position with a particular employer. In our family we have both and the 'Dr' is quite justified!

Quod errat demonstrandum.

VP959
26th Dec 2017, 14:03
As a result of various mergers I ended up entitled to use ‘Fellow of a particular Institution’ and various others after my name. I never thought I’d really earned it and never ever used it.

After retirement I gave the Insititution up, a couple of years later I sort of regretted doing so because I was not now entitled to use the award despite the fact I never used it or had any intention of ever doing so in the future. Truly muddled thinking I know.

The only time I found my old (expired) membership useful after retirement was in Screwfix, where producing proof of membership entitled me to an Electrofix trade discount card (and free coffee........).

RedhillPhil
26th Dec 2017, 16:41
But when John Wilson has died the widow becomes Mrs Jane Wilson, I was brought up to believe.


Possibly, but until any re-marriage or a statement to the contrary from her she should still be Mrs. John Smith. Perhaps the French have the right idea with the title "Widow" - or vueve as in Veuve Dopont. Widow of M. Dupont.

olympus
26th Dec 2017, 17:12
Or as I prefer- 'Veuve Clicqot'

visibility3miles
26th Dec 2017, 17:17
I have a PhD but don't use the title "Dr." unless it is a professional event.

When I married another PhD, I was unhappy when my invitation to the annual Christmas event at work changed from "Dr. Vis3" to "Dr. and Mrs. Vis3."

I mean, hello? My doctorate went out the window when I married?!?

visibility3miles
26th Dec 2017, 17:20
You ask when did actresses become actors?

The real question is when did women start playing female roles?

All actors/actresses were males in Shakespeare's time.

G-CPTN
26th Dec 2017, 18:05
But when John Wilson has died the widow becomes Mrs Jane Wilson, I was brought up to believe.

What about Dowager?

Tankertrashnav
26th Dec 2017, 18:29
Isn't that an Arab sailing boat? ;)

Rosevidney1
26th Dec 2017, 18:30
Oh, don't over-burden GtW with suggestions, please! He enjoys being disputatious and confrontational on here.

RedhillPhil
26th Dec 2017, 21:39
Or as I prefer- 'Veuve Clicqot'


I couldn't remember how to spell Clicqot. :)

Flypro
26th Dec 2017, 22:05
Cliquot.

Happy to hepl.........hic ;)

teeteringhead
27th Dec 2017, 11:34
Oh and Treadigraph, the newpapers in question are "tabloids", a word that probably shares it's roots with other "oids" like "paranoid" and "haemorrhoid". "Tabloid" has an interesting etymology.

In the 19th century, most pills/tablets were larger than now - think Alka-Seltzer size. When technology allowed smaller tablets, they were initially called "tabloids". The word spread to other smaller-than-usual things in the same way that "mini" (cars skirts etc) did in the 1960s.

At about the same time smaller newspapers were produced (Daily Mail was first I think) and were duly called tabloid newspapers. It's the only useage that stuck. Simples.

old,not bold
30th Dec 2017, 13:56
adressed to Captain.... I no longer hold that rank, which was/is meaningless outside of the airline Meaningless?!! Watch it, Sunshine, some of us "retired" from the military with the rank of Captain. And we know how to spell. Well, some of us do.

Speaking of spelling, I noticed a reduction in standards with M.Mouse's post #46, where the slip was ironically self-descriptive. Or was that intentional?

I was a Captain RA*, and the only time I have ever signed myself as Capt. RA (Retd) was when I was working in Dartmouth (in Devon, UK, home of the Royal Naval College, at least it was once) and needed co-operation from the Harbour Authority on various issues. Their senior staff were all ex-Royal Navy and took themselves and their ranks very seriously. I was accorded cordial and helpful respect by them, simply because an "A" can very easily be made to look like an "N" in a handwritten signature.

*Royal Artillery, for the ignorant.

Ancient Observer
30th Dec 2017, 14:13
I have never been in the military.

I thought everyone was called General or Admiral nowadays. The RN has more admirals of vice than it has boats. And the RAF has more chief marshals than it has planes.

VP959
30th Dec 2017, 15:43
Meaningless?!! Watch it, Sunshine, some of us "retired" from the military with the rank of Captain. And we know how to spell. Well, some of us do.

Speaking of spelling, I noticed a reduction in standards with M.Mouse's post #46, where the slip was ironically self-descriptive. Or was that intentional?

I was a Captain RA*, and the only time I have ever signed myself as Capt. RA (Retd) was when I was working in Dartmouth (in Devon, UK, home of the Royal Naval College, at least it was once) and needed co-operation from the Harbour Authority on various issues. Their senior staff were all ex-Royal Navy and took themselves and their ranks very seriously. I was accorded cordial and helpful respect by them, simply because an "A" can very easily be made to look like an "N" in a handwritten signature.

*Royal Artillery, for the ignorant.

True story. Sea trials, some time in the late 1980's, on board the first Type 23, HMS Norfolk. I had a new chap working for me, who had been tasked with setting up some instrumentation on what was then called the MTLS, Magazine Torpedo Launch System. Part of the set up involved cross-configuring the stabilisers, to induce maximum roll (we were looking for 45 deg roll if we could get it). Said new chap didn't have a clue about service ranks, and was a bit blunt. I'd retired to the wardroom for a lunch time drink when I was interrupted by a very irate ship's captain, who asked me if I thought "excuse me mate" was a suitable form of address for a senior officer.

Apparently the chap that I'd left to do the trials set up had got lost whilst looking for me (dead easy to do on a new warship) and had approached the first person he'd seen to ask as to my whereabouts. His relaxed mode of address to the ship's captain (for it was he that he'd approached) was not appreciated. I was given a stiff lecture on training my staff to recognise rank insignia and use the correct form of address in future...............

G-CPTN
30th Dec 2017, 15:47
Obviously inexcusable, as he had encountered the Captain - not the Mate.

M.Mouse
31st Dec 2017, 11:20
Speaking of spelling, I noticed a reduction in standards with M.Mouse's post #46, where the slip was ironically self-descriptive. Or was that intentional?

Typo on my part. I wanted to write QED but this forum does not allow short posts so had to write it in full. My Latin master would turn in his grave!