CX, KA or... HKA?

[schweizer2]

Hello,

As some of you may know from my last post, I am on a quest to get back home to HK.

After nearly 10 years of trying to break into this industry, with years of ups and countless downs, fun and potentially the best experience I'll ever get out of aircrafts, I have finally landed myself in a position where I will be logging that valuable jet time.

Now that I am in this position, I want to target a return to HK as soon as possible. I understand the conditions are not what they used to be, nor are they here in Europe.
My target would be to be back within the next two years, I want to be as prepared as possible as I may only be able to convince CX to give me one last go at joining the company. (Should I target CX)

What I would like to try get out of this thread is; what current deal would you go for in HK? If you work for CX, KA or HKA, which HK company would you rather be in and why?

Thank you all in advance for your input, I will monitor the inbox should you rather send a private message.

Happy holidays to all.

[Tommy Gavin]

Mate, you've just opened a :mad: storm....

Let the disgruntled CX warriors come in i 3,2,1.....

[Air Profit]

You mean the 3000+ of us that fit that description? (congrats to the management, epic accomplishment).

[cxorcist]

Truth!

Honestly, I’d choose HKA. Your promotion through the ranks will be much faster than at CX/KA, and the future is probably far brighter there where growth is inevitable with Mainland backing. This will all come at the expense of CX/KA whom are giving away the farm to fight a lose-lose battle against their pilots.

[schweizer2]

Thank you for the honest response.

Any chance you know how the current take-home pay from HKA compares to CX/KA?
Very difficult to judge it all from pjn as I don't quite know what extras will go towards the salary.
Been quite some time since I have actually been up to date with the packages available in HK.

[PanZa-Lead]

Also in HK it’s Merry Christmas and not Happy Holidays

[Trafalgar]

Air Profit. From what i'm hearing/seeing in the Flight Deck the past 6 months, that 3000+ will pretty soon be a much smaller number :hmm:

[kolob666]

Don’t be silly, the order from best to worst is KA, CX, Air Hong Kong, HKA, HKA Cargo, HKE, among the airlines anyway.

[bacou]

It depends on your age, how long you want to work and what you are looking for.
My opinion about these 3 choices:
KA for quick command and then work part time somewhere else.
CX for career if you're young enough to accept a long wait before command and you're sure you will be happy staying in HKG that long.
HKA would be a compromise between previous options with a bit less money than KA/CX.

[cpahka]

kolob666

Air Hong Kong! you must be kidding!

[volare_737]

Has it ever crossed your mind that some of us might not be interested in long haul operations at all !!! To be honest - you can keep your 10 hour plus trips in a metal tube, to get to your hotel room on the other side. So what I am trying to say is the options change. HKE is much more attractive from that point of view !!!

[cxorcist]

Frank W. Abagnale

If HKA is a “falling knife” then CX is total “fools gold”! No fortune to be made at CX anymore, and long haul is definitely not what it is cracked up to be. Real pilots prefer short and medium haul.

[schweizer2]

bacou

I am seeking to return to HK on a permanent basis. My age group is 28-33.
With my current employer, I could potentially look at command in 3 years, though I am not sure if it is worth the wait as I would have to join as an FO if I went to KA or CX.

I am not fussed between long or short hall. I've had previous jobs where I have spent a vast amount of time in hotels.

If quick command wasn't the selling point, would the overall CX package still be better than KA?

[FreemaninHK]

You may as well ask "Rancid Chicken, Rancid Beef, or Rancid Salmon"

Everything in life has a best before date. Even our bodies... we die.

CX,HKA,KA.. its over.. the Expat dream in HK is simply no more.

If you're joining under the guise 'getting ahead on a jet', you've not seen the forest for the tree's.

B scale guys with Housing, Education, loads of benefits can't make it work.

You think you can on D scale?

[cxorcist]

All 100% correct. However, KA has a better cadet package than CX and much faster career progression, assuming you can pass the course. Sitting as a CX SO to 5-8 years should be a non-starter if you are actually interested in being a pilot.

[FreemaninHK]

But whats the prize at the end...?

Atleast when we started you had housing payout and decent MPF.
You worked with professionals that challenged you.
(positively to be better.. not due to their lack of experience or knowledge).

Now its an erosion of already poor COS, and a transient work place.

On that happy note.. Merry Christmas..

[schweizer2]

I don't consider myself special compared to anyone else who has tried to make it work in HK or any expensive city.
Over the years, as an outsider, I have watched the terms and conditions erode in HK aviation, and it deeply saddens me.

All I am wanting to do is return home and finally be close to family and friends.

As you say, we all have a best before date and it is time for me to resume my life.
My passion for aviation has driven me to put my life on halt.
I have lived out of a car next to an airfield and in rooms that simply had a mattress on the floor all in the name of climbing that ladder whilst gaining incredible flying experience.
I move so much in pursuit of this career that I do not have friends, simply acquaintances.

But all my hard work is starting to pay off as I am soon in a position where my flight experience will actually mean something to the HR department and thus, I want to make sure that I am fully prepared for any opportunity I may get back in HK as well as make sure that I can find myself the best package out of what is currently available.

We all have our own desires, and mine is simply to come back to the place I call home and as every year ticks by, I understand my chances reduce.

[bacou]

Don't know what the package is at CX but I am sure that you would be paid more as a Captain with KA than a FO with CX and command at CX won't be at least before 10 years when in KA you'll be doing the course within 1 year.

Hope you're really sure you want to come back to HKG, even if you call the place home the city is far from being as good as it used to be.
A lot has already been posted on how expensive, overcrowded, polluted the city is and unfortunately that's all true.

[schweizer2]

Thank you for the response, I will be taking this into consideration once I reach the criteria for applying.

[mngmt mole]

Schweitzer, although I could not be considered impartial, there is arguably a better career to be had at either KA or HKA. My bet would be HKA. CX has openly declared war on it's pilots and their package, so it will be an exercise in frustration. It will also take many more years to command. At either of the other two, you would obtain much quicker promotion (and associated higher salary). KA is owned by Swire, so expect the same misery as at CX. HKA is the best bet. Quicker growth and a more positive atmosphere to work in. Good luck.

[schweizer2]

Thank you Mole.

Frustrating how requirement always change. Now that I have found a job elsewhere, the DESO requirements of CX have slightly been modified and I actually qualify for the position.

Within the next 12 months, I believe I will acquire the required experience to qualify for DEFO at HKA and CX, and if I can get the ATPL sign off at the next LPC, KA as well.
Any one know how flexible KA are in regards to having the ATPL and not just CPL with ATPL credits?

I do appreciate the time you have all taken to provide assistance.

[mngmt mole]

Something to bear in mind: a SO position at CX could stretch out more than 5 years with the changes the company is making. You would be a Captain with HKA in that time period.

[schweizer2]

I would be very interested to hear from someone who has jumped from CX/KA to HKA, knowing what you know now, would you still make the jump?

Feel free to send a private message if you prefer.

Cheers.

[checklistcomplete]

schweizer2

CX and KA have always had an unwritten non-poaching agreement. Merging of the two pilot groups had been a long term goal by senior management but recently abandoned as career opportunities and pay scales diverged.
CX to HKA is a reality. Many local CX pilots see their future with this growing local giant whereas CX continues to slide down the world rankings and careers are scarificed for share price short term gains.
The future is HKA.

[Dragon Pacific]

clc is correct. For locals HKA is the future. A fair number have already jumped from CX and KA to go there. The career opportunities to go into training and/or management are better. The money is not quite so good there but that is rapidly converging. If HKA would increase their package a bit more then they could cause real damage to the cpg. The locals I fly with have it worked out to the cent when it will be worth their while jumping.

[cpahka]

New relax, HKA now open for S/O with total 1500+ P2X hours plus current rated on A330/350 offer direct F/O position! Seems to target the Green's boys/gals. Also, HKA will give joining bonus after check out....:cool:

[Dragon Pacific]

Yes I heard that too. Sign on bonus for type rated guys with a CAD licence.

[checklistcomplete]

With unlimited financial backing HKA could strike a fatal blow to CX by upping their overall pilot package by say 10%. This would attract the disgruntled local CX guys ( and gals ) in their hundreds. This with the prospect of an early command MUST be attractive to our colleagues who call HKG their home and want/can remain here.

[cpahka]

I will predict or guess after 2020, cx/ka package to be lined up by vanishing the subsidies...

[Oasis]

What about the training bond at cx?
Would it be viable to make the jump with that to be paid off?

[Below the glide]

With unlimited financial backing HKA could strike a fatal blow to CX by upping their overall pilot package by say 10%. This would attract the disgruntled local CX guys ( and gals ) in their hundreds. This with the prospect of an early command MUST be attractive to our colleagues who call HKG their home and want/can remain here.
Just for the record, they’re a self sustaining airline. There’s no financial support from the mother company so I hear from PEK

[swh]

Not really true. They make a fair bit of money by leasing aircraft and supplying parts to the mainland HNA group airlines to get around the CAAC central ordering.

That has not been going well over the past few months,
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hnagroup-leases/hnas-airlines-miss-lease-payments-report-idUSKBN1DZ33G

Over a dozen FOs have left HKA for KA in the past 6 months.

[cpahka]

need to further verify actual KA hiring in 2017! heard few HKA FO has been offered DEC in AirAsia!

[Shep69]

What about the training bond at cx?
Would it be viable to make the jump with that to be paid off?

LOL....guess it depends on where you intend to go as to whether or not it's enforceable.

But in any case one should carefully evaluate what one is getting into. Actually talk to folks there and see how things are trending. There's no lack of sage advice.

As the old proverb goes:

There once was a hooker named Su
Who filled up her xxxxxx with glue
She said with a grin
If they pay to get in
They'll pay more to get out again too

Careful not to get 'stuck' wondering how you got there and what to do next.

[A350HK]

need to further verify actual KA hiring in 2017! heard few HKA FO has been offered DEC in AirAsia!

That's what I heard too. Rumor also has it that there are a load of KA FO's heading to HKA.

[cxorcist]

And why wouldn’t they? They’re not going to pass the KA (shuttle) command course. At least the KA expat TCs are protecting the safety standards there. Can’t say the same for CX. Another capitulation by another weak group!

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys, I did all the possible research myself but I am here to also ask a realistic view with some numbers from people with years of experience in hong kong.
I understand there is resentment and disillusion with many here, but I am just a colleague who is trying his best to take a good decision for his family, like everybody else.

So here it goes.

IF one gets hired as DEC by HKA, a realistic salary after training would be about 121700 HKD net (maybe a bit more on the 330, but just to be conservative).

As someone married, planning to have kids in the future, here is the expenses calculation I come up with:

37400 HKD for rental per month for a nice enough apartment, maybe discovery bay
14000 HKD a month to put in a private pension
9300 HKD per month per kid for private school

this leaves about 61000 HKD per month for living expenses and other insurances. Plus obviously some savings.

I am just looking to understand if I am missing something here. I understand the conditions are way behind what they used to be, and I am not here to defend any airline. Just looking for realistic numbers based advice from experienced colleagues. I know this has been answered many times, but as it is a super dynamic enviroment, I would like updated info.

Thank you for your help.

[Dan Winterland]

I am just looking to understand if I am missing something here.

Yes. You forgot tax!

[bringbackthe80s]

The mentioned salary is net of HK tax

[schweizer2]

Any chance those at CX, KA and HKA could post some figures for direct comparison?

Year 1 FO pay (specify if net)
Year 1 CPT pay (specify if net)

Dare I ask... What the perks are on offer, ie staff travel and its limitation (Only ID economy etc etc)

A quick message to thank you all for contributing to this thread be it with a reply here or with the private messages you have sent me. All the information is helping me make a decision for when the time comes to apply.

Sadly, due to my age, it is looking like CX will have to be my backup option should all else fail.

[etops330]

I would love to be based out of HKG too, but it doesn't make any sense to join CX/KA now, if you are currently at FR or EZY you're better off staying here mate, wait for command then leave! You'll better off financially and if things don't work out and you're medically fit, go and work as a skipper in China.

[schweizer2]

I can understand where you are coming from. At my new outfit, I have been told command could be anywhere between 2 and 4 years.
The problem I have is that, It simply isn't home.

[Trafalgar]

Schwiezer. I think you have received good advice overall. I understand your comment about 'home'. I don't know your age or experience. If you are 30+, I would not join CX. The time to upgrade, even from SO to FO could easily be 5-6 years. That is a lot of wasted time doing nothing (no offense to the SO's....!). I would join HKA first choice, as they are rapidly expending, seems to be a very positive environment and you will enjoy quick upgrades. The improving package there is in contrast to the degrading one at CX. You will be a Captain there before you even are finished as an SO at CX. No contest. KA would be second choice, but is infected with Swire management just like CX is. I don't think it will prove to be an enjoyable experience (plus too much China flying). HKA is the one to go for in Hong Kong.

[schweizer2]

Thank you again for your input.

Isn't the package offered by KA significantly better than HKA?

[Trafalgar]

It isn't necessarily the 'package' that counts. Swires have already indicated they are planning to go after the KA package next. They are a toxic management group and I sincerely believe you will ultimately not be happy there. Also, most of their flying is in and out of China. Not really enjoyable on any level.

[cxorcist]

I agree with this statement 100%. Rereading this thread, it’s a hands-down no brainer to go to HKA unless you love flying in the Mainland and don’t mind all the delays.

[Average Fool]

Thank you again for your input.

Isn't the package offered by KA significantly better than HKA?

Chasing the money will make for a very disappointing career. Go where you will get the most fulfillment. The money will come.

[Below the glide]

Good man ☝️

[Oasis]

Cx is still the way to go bud, but make sure you get the latest info before you pull the trigger...

[etops330]

The problem with any Asian airlines HR is that they will mislead you, just to lure you into signing the bloody contract. Once you're in, they suddenly forget about what they promised or come up with impossible and ridiculous requirements for bonus and upgrades. At least we have BALPA or ECA to protect us when things do go wrong in Europe. Once you're out there in Asia, you're on your own mate!

[Macarto]

Not really true. They make a fair bit of money by leasing aircraft and supplying parts to the mainland HNA group airlines to get around the CAAC central ordering.

That has not been going well over the past few months,
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hnagroup-leases/hnas-airlines-miss-lease-payments-report-idUSKBN1DZ33G

Over a dozen FOs have left HKA for KA in the past 6 months.

Looks like there is a mix of FOs switching between HKA and KA

[cxorcist]

Cx is still the way to go bud, but make sure you get the latest info before you pull the trigger...

That’s a mirage bud, not an Oasis. I want some of what you’re smoking.

[cxorcist]

When do people think a deal will be reached?

Never, because CX management has to “win”. It’s almost likely dealing with a child throwing tantrum. They are utterly committed to destroying the airline but too obtuse to see how.