REX W.A. Expansion

[AIRTAM]

In the week Rex dropped two routes in N.S.W., (Taree and Cobar) it was announced by the Western Australian Government that Rex was the preferred Tenderer for the Perth - Carnarvon and Perth - Monkey Mia routes. It is subject to the final signing of a "deed of agreement" to cover the five year exclusive licence commencing on 2 July 2018.
Skippers are the current operator to both towns.

[KRUSTY 34]

Mmm?

How far is it from Perth to Carnarvon?

[warrior92]

And rex have enough pilots?

[AmarokGTI]

Two additional Perth Commands have been allocated internally. Routes start in approx 6 months. Time to train for the upgrade is 3-6 months depending on upgrading pilots prior experience and Training Captain availability. FO spots can be filled from next groundschool. Aircraft will be WT.

[topend3]

The route is only 3 days a week

[Bend alot]

Damm the F28 was great!

[continueapproach737]

watch this space!

[KRUSTY 34]

Perth to Carnarvon is about 890.1km

Flight duration currently 2 hours 15 minutes and I think Skippers are using their Q100 for the routes

3 hours 20 minutes flight time in a 340b. :confused:

[AmarokGTI]

3 hours 20 minutes flight time in a 340b. :confused:

How did you come up with that?!?!

[KRUSTY 34]

How did you come up with that?!?!

Well I did take Andrias’s statement of Perth to Carnarvon as 890 nm at face value.

Last time I looked an SF340B had an average TAS of 270kts.

Happy to stand corrected if I’ve missed anything?

[AmarokGTI]

Well I did take Andrias’s statement of Perth to Carnarvon as 890 nm at face value.

Last time I looked an SF340B had an average TAS of 270kts.

Happy to stand corrected if I’ve missed anything?

I think you misread. 890km, not nm. It’s about 450nm.
You are correct about 270ktas for the Saab. To factor in a slower climb, 235-240ktas average is a better figure for planning. That would make it just under 2hrs flight time. Block time will be slightly longer, as per usual.

[Icarus2001]

Can someone with some real aviation law knowledge explain to me how a state government can legislate aviation routes within their state given that the Australian constitution specifically says that aviation regulation is under the sole authority of the federal government.

Giving a monopoly "licence" to one operator I believe is not legally defendable.

[morno]

If it’s the same as some routes in Queensland, it’s regulated so that they can get an airline to service the route. The government would be subsiding the route in some way, so to encourage operators to apply, they would offer some protection.

That’s the way I understand it.

[TurboMaggot]

I think you misread. 890km, not nm. It’s about 450nm.
You are correct about 270ktas for the Saab. To factor in a slower climb, 235-240ktas average is a better figure for planning. That would make it just under 2hrs flight time. Block time will be slightly longer, as per usual.

From memory you could bank on 182KIAS in High Climb, equating to 180-200kts GS.

Can't see a problem unless a tempo gets slapped onto the TAF.

[KRUSTY 34]

[QUOTE=AmarokGTI;10001148]I think you misread. 890km, not nm. It’s about 450nm.

Thanks Amarok.

Bloody metric system!

[AmarokGTI]

From memory you could bank on 182KIAS in High Climb, equating to 180-200kts GS.

Can't see a problem unless a tempo gets slapped onto the TAF.

182KIAS is the highest IAS that High Climb with give you. Basically High Climb is 200TAS. Medium Climb 180TAS. The IAS will reduce as you climb to roughly keep that TAS.

In nil wind min fuel load to get there will be about 1.2tonnes (including reserves etc). That’s ok for a full load. Headwind/inter/tempo/alternate will have to mean capped sales or a stop for some more motion lotion on the way. 28ish pax with typical luggage weights will allow inter fuel.

[topend3]

Can someone with some real aviation law knowledge explain to me how a state government can legislate aviation routes within their state given that the Australian constitution specifically says that aviation regulation is under the sole authority of the federal government.

Giving a monopoly "licence" to one operator I believe is not legally defendable.

The primary factor is that without a regulated service it is likely some towns would have no air service at all.

[gulliBell]

I don't think it's a question of legislation, it's simply just a State Government putting out a tender for the provision of a service. No problem with that at all. There is nothing stopping an unsuccessful tenderer operating the same route, other than the common sense economics of it.

[TurboMaggot]

182KIAS is the highest IAS that High Climb with give you. Basically High Climb is 200TAS. Medium Climb 180TAS. The IAS will reduce as you climb to roughly keep that TAS.

In nil wind min fuel load to get there will be about 1.2tonnes (including reserves etc). That’s ok for a full load. Headwind/inter/tempo/alternate will have to mean capped sales or a stop for some more motion lotion on the way. 28ish pax with typical luggage weights will allow inter fuel.

Yeah I meant 180-200kts Ground Speed. It'd be interesting to know what the loads were with Skippers.

[Skystar320]

Can someone with some real aviation law knowledge explain to me how a state government can legislate aviation routes within their state given that the Australian constitution specifically says that aviation regulation is under the sole authority of the federal government.

Giving a monopoly "licence" to one operator I believe is not legally defendable.


The Minister for Transport has powers under the Transport Coordination Act 1966 to license aircraft and place conditions on aircraft licenses to control where and when airlines may fly within the State.

Under the Western Australian Transport Coordination Act 1966 and the Transport Coordination Regulations 1985 the Minister for Transport has the authority to issue aircraft licences for up to 12 months, free of charge, to airlines operating within the State for commercial purposes (hire or reward), other than for medical emergency purposes.

The purpose of the Act and Regulations is to ensure that Western Australians are provided, as far as is practicable, with reliable, efficient and economic transport services. Under this legislation the Minister is empowered to regulate intrastate air routes by placing various conditions on aircraft licences.

These can include conditions that restrict the area or frequency of airline operations or any other conditions considered in the public interest. Any condition placed on an aircraft licence may refer to the provision of RPT services, charter services, or both where applicable.

[dijical]

Can someone with some real aviation law knowledge explain to me how a state government can legislate aviation routes within their state given that the Australian constitution specifically says that aviation regulation is under the sole authority of the federal government.

Giving a monopoly "licence" to one operator I believe is not legally defendable.

The constitution gives the federal government exclusive responsibility for interstate trade. Intrastate trade (exclusively within a state, things like intrastate air routes) are regulated by the state.

[Icarus2001]

Thanks Skystar 320 and dijical for the info. Makes more sense now.

[Lead Balloon]

And the primary point of the intra-state licensing systems is to increase the likelihood of a service being financially viable (through the route being a monopoly).

[Johnny_56]

This is a kick in the guts for all the crew at Skippers.

The Dash & Braz are great aircraft for these routes (Apu’s in summer, can carry decent loads when required)

It was a shame that Rex won the southern routes initially. I’m not really sure why the WA government would be so keen to have an interstate operator start up at the expense of an established WA company.

[Bend alot]

Can I please ask what Skippers political donations was for the last 5 years, let me guess it was less than Rex's.


A very foolish move in a non corrupt country.

Stay on top of your G/Name

[Skystar320]

This is a kick in the guts for all the crew at Skippers.

The Dash & Braz are great aircraft for these routes (Apu’s in summer, can carry decent loads when required)

It was a shame that Rex won the southern routes initially. I’m not really sure why the WA government would be so keen to have an interstate operator start up at the expense of an established WA company.

DID THEY EVEN TENDER?

[tomcat264]

Can someone with some real aviation law knowledge explain to me how a state government can legislate aviation routes within their state given that the Australian constitution specifically says that aviation regulation is under the sole authority of the federal government.

Giving a monopoly "licence" to one operator I believe is not legally defendable.

These airlines tender for a route on a 5 year contract etc when the 5 yrs is up any airline can tender for it or pull the plug on it just like VARA pulled the plug on Albany and w few other routes deciding it was better to pull out & sell the F50's than to continue making a loss on those routes, Rex picked up those routes with the 340

[4EvahLearning]

According to the Skippers website:

"Carnarvon is 904km North of Perth and is a 1 hour and 50 minute flight with Skippers aviation from Perth"

[morno]

The Dash & Braz are great aircraft for these routes (Apu’s in summer

Just in regards to that APU thing. I recently did the mail run from Brisbane out to a far Western QLD port on the Rex SAAB. Fearing how hot it'd be given no APU (40+ degree days), I was pleasantly surprised at how cool they managed to keep it on the turnarounds when they shut down (some single engine turnarounds where possible). Air conditioning carts were plugged in when able and the crew made sure all blinds were closed to keep the direct sunlight out during a turnaround. So don't fear the whole no APU thing!

morno

[topend3]

If skippy wasn’t such a shoddily run organisation they might have put up a winning tender. REX have come in and provided a service on Albany and Esperance that VARA couldn’t, so they obviously put up a compelling offer. Government should take what is best for those communities in providing a reliable and viable service with consumer interests at the fore, not just giving it to the local operator. I would be surprised if skippy didn’t put an offer in, with their recent loss of contract work they need all the flying they can get.

[Saintly]

I think you misread. 890km, not nm. It’s about 450nm.
You are correct about 270ktas for the Saab. To factor in a slower climb, 235-240ktas average is a better figure for planning. That would make it just under 2hrs flight time. Block time will be slightly longer, as per usual.

F50s used to do PER-CVQ in two hours but I assume the F50 had similar speeds to the Dash 8s 100/300?? I also assume the Saabs may be slightly quicker then the F50s and Dash 8 100/300??

[givemewings]

In the past the tender process split the destinations into coastal and goldfields, both winning tenders had to take less desirable routes in order to get the 'profitable' ones to ensure service remained to those towns that otherwise wouldn't get an RPT flight.

Getting Monkey Mia and supporting Kalbarri comes to mind, Skywest did it with the F50 before VARA. I think at one point Skippy did it too in a pair with Geraldton/Kalbarri.

[Ken Borough]

The constitution gives the federal government exclusive responsibility for interstate trade. Intrastate trade (exclusively within a state, things like intrastate air routes) are regulated by the state.

Section 92 of the Commonwealth Constitution is the answer. It's been challenged to death over the past 110 plus years in the High Court and the Privy Council.

[Saintly]

Do people think that there is still a need for the F50s to operate in WA? In the future would Rex possibly use F50s on the Carnarvon and Monkey Mia routes?

[topend3]

Reality is both will barely support a Saab or a Dash 8.

[Saintly]

Reality is both will barely support a Saab or a Dash 8.

Why is that? Dash 8/F50 not economically viable?

[Bend alot]

Monkey Mia has a very small population, possibly lucky to be 200 people. It is a tourist destination due to the dolphins.


Carnarvon for many years had a sign stating the population was 6,700 (its post code is 6701) but I see in the 2016 census it has reduced to 4,426.

Flights seem a bit cheaper these days but Peth to either Monkey Mia or Carnarvon will still be around $500 return (some days more some less). The flight between Monkey Mia and Carnarvon is a bit over $100.


There is not a large fixed population to support large aircraft on these routes. Due to the vast distance between towns in WA particularly north of Geraldton and the high costs of all flights very few tourists use air travel as a mode of transport. Most tourist that come to this region use campervan or caravans as there are many places to see along the way that have no air services.

Many residents of Carnarvon simply drive to Geraldton to buy any goods they can not find in Carnarvon often things like white goods and then they drive them back and use them that day not 2 weeks later. After Carnarvon living Perth is too busy and big for many and only visited to fly out some place else like Bali for a vacation.

I think you would find Carnarvon - Darwin, would be get similar if not better traffic than Perth. The reason is Carnarvon has a high migrant population and heading towards Singapore rather than away from it is appealing.

[Saintly]

We already knew this but its been confirmed..


https://thewest.com.au/business/aviation/rex-expands-wa-reach-with-carnarvon-monkey-mia-routes-ng-b88759279z

[marreeman]

Bit hard to expand with not enough crew!

[Slippery_Pete]

Cadet motivation letters. That’ll fix it.

[Saintly]

Yup.

Virtually the entire Cairns base resigned last week!

Why did they resign?

[KRUSTY 34]

Why did they resign?

Honestly!

Why do you think?

[Icarus2001]

So they can move to Perth to crew flights?

[MajorLemond]

Pilots rarely resign from a job unless they have something to move on to.

Was probably worse a decade ago, with lots of resignations every week with majors recruiting pilots. Same thing is happening again, nothing new.

How's the training regime going Krusty?

[KRUSTY 34]

How's the training regime going Krusty?[/QUOTE]

Well, I can’t say a lot about REX Major, but there is a backlog of training slots up the line. This has produced an interesting and I dare say frustrating set of circumstances for REX management. Just as they finish fudging a new set of crew numbers, Wham! 5 or more Captains resign. This ongoing attrition driven by the training needs of the majors, ensures that the blood loss is as prolonged as it is profound.

When you consider that virtually every REX pilot with an ATPL is waiting for a call up, it truly will be the death of a thousand cuts.

[assasin]

Surely rex are not short of crew, after all the cadet programme was started to combat this from happening to them! http://www.rex.com.au/MediaRelease/Files/525_MR20171211-AustralianAirlinePilotAcademyCelebrates10yearAnniversaryPilo tGraduation.pdf

32million for a system that may not be living up to expectations?

[KRUSTY 34]

32million for a system that may not be living up to expectations?[/QUOTE]

Ha! Nailed it assasin. 😀