Do you believe Mrs May?

[Onceapilot]

I have just read the BBC reported comments by Mrs May. I tried to relate her comments about the "Valiant hearts" of British servicemen and women and how they actively protect the nation and how highly valued they are... But then, I thought about the Armed forces covenant and, the collapse of future pensions, and the overstretch, and the pay freeze and 1% pay cap. :oh:

OAP

[air pig]

I have just read the BBC reported comments by Mrs May. I tried to relate her comments about the "Valiant hearts" of British servicemen and women and how they actively protect the nation and how highly valued they are... But then, I thought about the Armed forces covenant and, the collapse of future pensions, and the overstretch, and the pay freeze and 1% pay cap. :oh:

OAP

Do you believe a politician of any stripe?

[jindabyne]

Plus ca change -------

[goudie]

She's just sacked Minister for telling lies so she wouldn't lie herself...would she?

[glad rag]

Plus ca change -------

Oh yes indeed, say what they want to hear, do it enough times, and they'll start to believe it..

[KPax]

I think the PM has a cheek in particular the handling of the pay, but the thought of Corbyn and Momentum being allowed anywhere near any part of Defence or Intelligence fills me with dread.

[Lima Juliet]

I don’t trust any of them. She’s just lucky that her competition are Comrades Corbyn/Mcdonnell/Abbott whom I won’t vote for whilst I still have a hole in my arse. At least you know what you’re getting with Mrs May, I suppose? But you could say the same of the Trumpmeister!!!

I see that M. Macron’s popularity halo has also slipped - falling faster than any French president ever! It is only showing mild signs of recovery this month due again to somewhat weak opposition.

The best Christmas message that I truly believe comes from Gen David Goldfein USAF - the bits in bold shows that he really understands the problem. His problem, like ours but on a far larger scale, is how to fix it:

To all our Airmen standing watch here at home and around the globe to keep us safe, Dawn & I thank you for your service and sacrifice. We know many of you will be working, making the mission happen, when you would likely rather be spending time with loved ones. I wish I could thank each one of you personally.

Our Nation demands a lot of you. Given our high operations tempos, I know you are tired, taxed and feeling the burden of these demands.The work you do is necessary, important and makes a difference. As the service with the most diverse portfolio of missions operating from the outer reaches of space and everywhere in between, Airmen are involved in some way in every mission the joint force performs. You are always there for America and our allies. And, we are grateful. It is my absolute privilege and honor to serve with you.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Coming back to whether or not you can believe Mrs May perhaps it is first apposite to take a quick review of her track record when she was Home Secretary.

As far as I can tell she almost completely b*ggered the police, the prison service and the boarder/immigration service. All of which she cut so drastically as to reduce their efficiency to a degree that has not been seen for decades. However if you listened to her speeches of the time and believed what she said you would come to the conclusion that the opposite was the case.

So in my opinion her past actions speak volumes for her personal integrity. This I find is the most worrying thing about Brexit and fully expect that we stand the risk of being "sold down the river" by her.

[JAVELINBOY]

Dodgyoldfart hits the nail on the head with regard to TM's track record, she has destroyed the Police Service with what she did when Home Secretary. Today we are seeing officers leaving in their droves, my old force lost a Sergeant and 4 Constables in a single day at one police post this week.

[ImageGear]

My, my, we are a cynical lot, aren't we.

I listened to the speech in it's entirety, and I do not personally subscribe to the "if the mouth is moving, then the Lady is lying". So I would say this in May's defence. I personally have never heard a sitting PM make a speech directly to the armed forces, without having referenced some other political hot potato in all the years I have been listening. Many PM's have included a piece as part of a larger speech, but I have not heard it as a direct and specific pre-Christmas message. The possible exception may be Maggie after the Falklands, but I did not hear it.

I will also say this since she is my MP. I attended a clinic with the Lady to request her assistance in a matter that had no relevance to me personally, or to my family. She made certain commitments which were not only communicated to relevant departments, but she also ensured that they were fulfilled. There was nothing in it for her but she did it anyway.

I will continue to cut her some slack. Perhaps I may be proved wrong however then the alternative person in the chair is likely not to take such a view of the services and they may become surplus to requirements.

Imagegear

[NutLoose]

Lost total faith when I watch Cameron on the carrier praise everyone while knowing he was chopping the lot.

[glad rag]

Anyway OP, isn't this a song by The Darkness?

[woptb]

No. An awful,awful specimen of humanity, determined to cling on to power at any cost. If you believe this speech was for the ears of our beleaguered armed forces,best consult a pharmacist :E

[NutLoose]

True, but the consequences for our future in the long term if she does not remain isn't worth thinking about, at least let them get Brexit out of the way and then boot her into touch

[etudiant]

A beleaguered PM has to be grateful to the Armed Services, they are loyal, which is more than can be said of any of her fellow politicians or even the senior bureaucrats.
So an appreciative comment seems very much in the spirit of the season.

[Lockstock]

Lost total faith when I watch Cameron on the carrier praise everyone while knowing he was chopping the lot.

Eh?

I thought the carriers were still going ahead. Do you know different?

[TBM-Legend]

How can you tell when a politician's lying?

That's when you see their lips move!

[Melchett01]

They’re all as bad as each other. But looking across the current crop of career politicians of all hues that have left us with a divided, divisive profit at all costs country, where spin beats substance and a quick retort is viewed more highly than a considered response, there’s a fair few of us wondering whether what we are left with after their efforts is actually worth putting lives on the line for.

A point brought home when reading a supposed quality paper online and looking at some of the outrageous comments and ad hominem attacks being casually thrown around; left me thinking that if that is a representation of what I and my colleagues are supposed to be defending, frankly I’d rather not waste the effort on those sorts.

[Lordflasheart]

And apparently, an effective £1 per head Christmas tip for the 500 British military currently serving in Afghanistan - or is that fake news in today's Sunday Times ?

[BEagle]

I don't read the ST as it's behind the Dirty Digger's paywall....

However, in other news I see that the new Defence Secretary has stopped a pointless, wasteful £520K 'rebranding' attempt by some daft pongo committee - see Army halts plans to ditch 'Be the Best' slogan - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42469901)

It seems that the pongo committee considered 'being the best' to be "dated, elitist and non-inclusive" and that it didn't "resonate with many of our key audiences".

Fortunately Willy thought otherwise and had such nonsense stopped! But not before £520K had been wasted....:ugh:

[WilliumMate]

A beleaguered PM has to be grateful to the Armed Services, they are loyal,

I was never, in the sense of the word, loyal to any bunch of politicians. I was loyal to my oppos, my service and to the Crown but not those that often conspired to shaft me, my oppos and my service.

[Wander00]

At least new SofS seems to have understood something. To punch above your weight as UK does you have to "be the best", elitist is good, very good

[Party Animal]

I'm told by a colleague who attended the 'Millies Awards' event last week that the only comment the PM had to make, concerned the current government fighting to increase the number of outlets willing to give a 10% discount on goods and services to those with a military ID card! :rolleyes:

[Basil]

A beleaguered PM has to be grateful to the Armed Services, they are loyal, which is more than can be said of any of her fellow politicians
Something I mentioned to my Remoaner MP after he recently voted against his party.

[The Old Fat One]

Something I mentioned to my Remoaner MP after he recently voted against his party.


Do you speak to him often? If so, could you say thank you on my behalf :p

PS Not a remoaner (seems to be working out quite well so far), just a democrat.

[Roadster280]

I don't read the ST as it's behind the Dirty Digger's paywall....

However, in other news I see that the new Defence Secretary has stopped a pointless, wasteful £520K 'rebranding' attempt by some daft pongo committee - see Army halts plans to ditch 'Be the Best' slogan - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42469901)

It seems that the pongo committee considered 'being the best' to be "dated, elitist and non-inclusive" and that it didn't "resonate with many of our key audiences".

Fortunately Willy thought otherwise and had such nonsense stopped! But not before £520K had been wasted....:ugh:

"Be the best" seems to have bit more about it than the below, but really, why do the forces have to have such nonsense to begin with?

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5505b90de4b04bf62ae48b5f/5505c439e4b02e3c159d2f5e/58757cee725e25df433975e7/1484094704142/RAF+LOGO+.jpg?format=1000w

[Lima Juliet]

Roadster

That is so last year...:cool:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/media/2119/desktop-intro-bg.jpg

Innit?

[Lima Juliet]

http://gonfernandez.co.uk/img/work/noj.jpg

[sharpend]

I don't believe her or trust her.

[Lima Juliet]

This was the one that did it for me...
http://aviationancestry.co.uk/Humm/Sites/Main/Views/Database/Images/RAFRecruit/Recruitment-RAFRecruit-1979-59481.jpg
...although I should add it took me until 27!

[Onceapilot]

Nice one LJ! I didn't even have 5 O's, my maths was CSE GRADE 1! :eek:

OAP

[ExAscoteer]

Surely a CSE Grade One was the equivalent to an O Level GCE Grade C?

[Onceapilot]

Surely a CSE Grade One was the equivalent to an O Level GCE Grade C?

Yes, I do understand that was a generally accepted rule. However, it does say "5 good O-levels" etc.....
I wonder how many joined with the bottom level, or lower, qualifications, apart from me? :ok:

Merry Christmas

OAP

[Roadster280]

Interesting that no A Levels were required!

[Basil]

I left school at 15 with no 'O' or 'A' levels.
When, IIRC, at the age of 22, I applied to the RAF, they required 5 'O' levels.
I could have knocked them off in a couple of months but had to wait for the exams to come around. ISTR I was considered to have maths and one or two others on the basis of post-school engineering qualifications.

Interesting that no A Levels were required!
The Airways Corporation required 'A' levels but it was clearly demonstrated by the RAF that they were not necessary for pilot training.

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadster, in those days 4 got you airman aircrew, 5 got you a commission and 2 A levels got you to Cranwell as aircrew or Henlow as ground crew.

No engineers in those days, Technical or Secretarial.

GCEs were only pass/fail, no grades.

[Pontius Navigator]

As Basil says, what was essential was a minimum educational level and ability. The need was for hundreds of aircrew every year but far fewer destined for command.

[The Helpful Stacker]

A beleaguered PM has to be grateful to the Armed Services, they are loyal...

Not to her they're not.

There is a reason why the Armed Forces don't swear an Oath of Allegiance to a political entity.

[NutLoose]

Correct... When I think of half af the spivs we have had in power, they do not inspire trust nor leadership, their only interest is to feed at the trough of plenty.

[Pontius Navigator]

And it is wrong to assume that anyone in the Services is right wing or Tory supporter. Perhaps the best evidence of that is Lord West a Labour peer. To a lesser extent former CDS tend to be cross benchers which is more the position of the Monarch.

[Vendee]

This was the one that did it for me...
http://aviationancestry.co.uk/Humm/Sites/Main/Views/Database/Images/RAFRecruit/Recruitment-RAFRecruit-1979-59481.jpg
...although I should add it took me until 27!

Yebbut you didn't manage to fly the one in the photo (GR1) ;)

On a more serious note, I wonder how many 22 year olds did fly it. I would imagine that you would have to be an 18 year old entrant on O or A levels to manage that. I think that even back in the 80's, most fast jet starters were university graduates joining up as 22 year olds so by the time they had done basic and advanced training, they would be about 24/25 before they got near a Tornado cockpit. I wonder when the last "5 O level" pilot/nav was recruited from new?

[mikemmb]

........well no!

But then we are in an awfull situation with our politics at the moment.
An inbred culture of lying & deceit has taken over, probably brought about by all the hangers on, spin docters etc constantly trying to make everything look good and bury bad news.
Everything that is said or written is carefully crafted to look like one thing, but mean something else.

Shades of the Emperors New Clothes?

[Basil]

One of the last truthful statements was: “I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat.”

[Lima Juliet]

Yebbut you didn't manage to fly the one in the photo (GR1)

Thank goodness for that! The RS version was so much better than the Popular Plus...:E

PS. On reflection it looks like Prototype (P08) :8

[Vendee]

Thank goodness for that! The RS version was so much better than the Popular Plus...:E

PS. On reflection it looks like Prototype (P08) :8

I'm surprised you didn't ditch the nav in the RS model and put a big subwoofer in his place :E

[Lima Juliet]

That would be the PA100, a single seater, that was eventually dropped for the 2 seat PA200...
http://www.afwing.com/upload/2016-07/tornado-ids/pa-100.jpg

[Herod]

Ref political parties: "Always keep a hold of nurse; for fear of finding something worse" (Belloc)

[The Helpful Stacker]

And it is wrong to assume that anyone in the Services is right wing or Tory supporter...

Indeed.

The days of service personnel being default Tory supporters are long gone, given that they have repeatedly proved (through their reckless attacks on the budget of the Armed Forces) that their claim of being the party of 'security' is nothing but talk.

Some may consider the prospect of Left-leaning government distasteful, due to their less war-mongering rhetoric, but at least the Left are likely to do as they say, not BS about being "strong on defence" whilst hacking the services to pieces.

[Roadster280]

Roadster, in those days 4 got you airman aircrew, 5 got you a commission and 2 A levels got you to Cranwell as aircrew or Henlow as ground crew.

No engineers in those days, Technical or Secretarial.

GCEs were only pass/fail, no grades.

I did my GCE O Levels in 1984/5, A-Levels in 1987. The Tornado must have only been in service a couple years when I did my O Levels, and from past papers we did at the time, I am sure they must have been the same from at least 1980 onwards - ie graded A-E and U.

Maybe the requirement for A Levels came in with the move to Cranwell-only training for offrs.

[ExAscoteer]

Maybe the requirement for A Levels came in with the move to Cranwell-only training for offrs.

Nope. I joined in 1981 and the minimum requirement then was 5x O Levels at C Grade (or equivalent) including Maths, English, and a Physical based Science.

[The B Word]

Still 5x O Levels by 1989 as per above. However, they were allegedly a bit harder than the GCSE - certainly fewer A/A*s floating about.

[Vendee]

When I joined in 1975 it was min 5 O levels for officer aircrew and 3 O levels for NCO air eng, loadmaster etc. However at seventeen and a half, with 6 O Levels, I enquired about NCO air eng but was "persuaded" by the CIO to go for propulsion tech with a view to remustering to air eng later on. It was probably the right decision as I wasn't mature enough as a 17.5 year old and I'm sure I would have flunked the course.

[Easy Street]

The days of service personnel being default Tory supporters are long gone, given that they have repeatedly proved (through their reckless attacks on the budget of the Armed Forces) that their claim of being the party of 'security' is nothing but talk.

I've always found the idea of voting out of self-interest quite distasteful, whether it's the rich voting Tory for lower taxes or public sector workers voting Labour for more money. There is so much more at stake in an election than that. Instead of focusing on special interest areas, voters should be looking at a party's entire offer and its core philosophy, because that is what will drive Government decision-making as unexpected events unfold during the subsequent Parliament. Rant over.

[Heathrow Harry]

Doesnt matter which party is in office - they all talk big and then cut.......

[Pontius Navigator]

Roadster, the clue in my post was Henlow. In 61 Cranwell was exclusively aircrew and mostly pilot at that. Cranwell was essential if you expected promotion to sqn ldr and beyond. It was possible to be promoted to sqn ldr whilst on the Supplementary List with the bonus that passing the C was not required. However for promotion to flt lt it was essential that one passed the B. It was noit unusual to find fg off with 12 years seniority in rank. They enjoyed the almost total lack of power or authority.

[jindabyne]

PN

And then it all changed around 8/9 years later. Sailed past many a Cranwellian!!

[Herod]

1969, with the introduction of the Military Salary, and the combining of the lists. I was 22 and married. No entitlement to married quarters, and a VERY reduced marriage allowance. Suddenly an increase in pay, and a quarter. Oh, and a third of a batwoman to help my wife out (that didn't last long, though).

[Basil]

Roadster, the clue in my post was Henlow. In 61 Cranwell was exclusively aircrew and mostly pilot at that. Cranwell was essential if you expected promotion to sqn ldr and beyond. It was possible to be promoted to sqn ldr whilst on the Supplementary List with the bonus that passing the C was not required. However for promotion to flt lt it was essential that one passed the B. It was noit unusual to find fg off with 12 years seniority in rank. They enjoyed the almost total lack of power or authority.
Having tried, not too hard, to pass an exam the point of which, as, before joining, an engineer, I really didn't get, it was hilarious to become an instant Flt Lt which pissed off many, much to our amusement.

(Was that punctuation correct?) :}

[Brian W May]

There is one Mrs May I do believe, but the politician? No bloody way.

If there is a 'y' in the day, or their lips are moving, they're lying.

[skydiver69]

I prescribe to the talk is cheap theory for politicians and therefore tend not to believe any politician's protestations of support for whoever they claim to back. As a PC I see the Tories cutting police budgets whilst increasing the penalties for a range of offences and telling everyone how tough they are on x y and z. The trouble is an increase in penalties is cheap but the real cost comes with having enough people to enforce the laws no matter how tough the penalty. In the meantime the government gets lots of column inches about how tough they are at no cost. The same principle applies to May and her fine words about the armed forces. She talks about how much she values them but she isn't prepared to back up those fine words with an inflation matching or inflation plus pay rise for example. The veterans card is a fine gesture but it won't cost the government a penny as the people giving the discounts linked to it are all private organisations, but again HMG gets the good publicity but at no cost to them.

[Pontius Navigator]

Basil, and the change to flt lt pay scales where the GL flt lt, whose pay had been frozen at 6 years of increments, were aligned with SL who had increments to 38, but suddenly limited to 6 years, so everyone on 6+ immediately jumped to the previous top rate :)

[Heathrow Harry]

New Op-Ed in the Times today suggesting far too many SO's and not enough concentration on lower ranks

"Every new Policy or military challenge brings a new Two Star HQ and staff"

[[email protected]]

The problem is that the country is f**ked from decades of underfunding and selling off the family silver to keep things going.

The ONLY thing that will save us is an increase in tax across the board in order to replenish the coffers and allow us to properly fund the police, NHS, Armed Forces, roads, etc etc etc

But which party would ever commit to that as a policy since they all consider it to be taboo to raise taxes? And would any of us vote for them if they did?

Instead we are wasting what parliamentary time and effort there is available trying to cut ourselves off from the rest of Europe and commit slow-motion economic suicide just because we don't like Brussels telling us what to do FFS!

Things are just going to get worse so get used to it.

[glad rag]

You'll have to do better than that.

"The Tory ‘strength and stability’ message has been undermined throughout the campaign. The manifesto launch was a disaster. The foxhunting thing [pledging a vote on bringing it back] has cut through a lot more than people think. That plays into people’s concerns about the Conservative party – the party of the establishment, country estates, and quite vicious and nasty. It was not necessary. An absolute own goal.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/27/tory-manifesto-disaster-labour-surge-polls-close-general-election

And what was that thing that finally scuttled the vile witches [opinion based on her "successes" as Home Sec] hopes again????

Ah yes, even more TAXATION. Which neatly brings us back to your earlier, lamentable, post 65 above...

[[email protected]]

Ah yes, even more TAXATION. Which neatly brings us back to your earlier, lamentable, post 65 above.. And your solution to the parlous state of our country is...............?

[Brian 48nav]

Please close this thread and any other reference to Brexit!

A lot of us here have served together, flown together and attend reunions together. This subject is threatening to tear us apart; there are plenty of forums elsewhere including comments sections in the press where Brexit can be discussed.

Please, please everyone keep Brexit off these pages.

[jindabyne]

There is an unpleasantness running through this thread which is more suited to Jet Blast. And all brought about by references to Brexit. Even some old hands who are usually more tempered with their remarks are fuelling the unwelcome debate.

As per my Post No 74 earlier, I agree with the likes of Brian and Harry. Mods please close it down.

And well said Newt - HNY.

[Chris Kebab]

That said it is a totally accurate reflection on the sad, totally divided, state of our Nation today. A division apparent in our household and one that will take decades to heal:(

[[email protected]]

Back to trusting Mrs May then - she insisted that the immigration figures should include the 100,000 foreign students studying in UK because, in her words, 'few of them went home at the end'.

This has now been proven utterly false and the real figure for students overstaying their visas is actually 5,000.

With disingenuous remarks (or blatant lies if you prefer) like that, how can she be trusted with the Armed Forces welfare and future?

[Melchett01]

And your solution to the parlous state of our country is...............?

The question I have regularly wanted to ask our lords and masters is why, if we are one of the biggest economies in the world, does the country appear to be falling apart with constant cries of no money to do anything about it? Where is all the money going to?

I suspect I know the answer - large chunks being spent on pensions and social security. I'm not going to debate the rights and wrongs of how a civilised society funds its pensioners and vulnerable, but I think we seriously missed a trick when North Sea oil & gas came on stream not to do as the Norwegians did and set up a sovereign wealth fund. That might have at least mitigated some of the issues of unfunded spending commitments.

That ship has sailed, but with a degree of intelligent thinking surely there must be some other mechanism we as a nation can tap into to provide the government with an income stream beyond taxation that can help arrest the constant erosion of institutions and capability.

[[email protected]]

I think they tried that with the selling off of council houses and utilities - nothing left to sell so it is more borrowing or more taxation..........

Perhaps stop rewarding the housebuilders for banking land, not building truly affordable housing and doing a pretty poor job of the houses they do build.

Something else Mrs May isn't to be trusted on! (There, just kept on topic):ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

Scandi expectations on health & Social security plus US levels of taxation = disappointment all round

[Flash Harry]

[email protected]

Do you believe everything you read in the Grauniad?

You have fallen into that old left wing trap, tax more is the answer. As Melchett has already pointed out the budget is massive, most of it already goes on Social Security and the NHS (pensions, other welfare and Health i.e. 52% of total spend for fy 2017-2018). The tax rates rates are already fairly punitive in the UK. If you think that the likes of Philip Green will pay more, then dream on.

'Only the little people pay tax.' And, I feel I pay more than enough thanks. There are still many in our society taking the Social Security system for a ride.

[[email protected]]

And you have fallen for the standard Telegraph/Sun/Mail trap There are still many in our society taking the Social Security system for a ride.

I am far from being a Grauniad reader and a very long way from being left wing but what is your answer?

The country is broke and in debt, there is nothing in the war chest and we are, shortly after 2019, going to have to stand on our own 2 feet in the world with a crumbling infrastructure and failing NHS.

Mrs May's magic money tree is compost and everything in the country has been cut and cut again (for good reason - to try and reduce the debt).

Our tax levels are not punitive by any stretch of the imagination but our debt levels, both personally and as a country, are ridiculous as we struggle to keep the economy 'growing' by getting people to spend more.

I don't have a utopian solution but unless something changes, the dystopian future will seem very bleak by comparison.

Unless Mrs May sorts her life out, there will be a general election this year and comrade Corbyn will get in and try to spend his way to the promised land - I'd rather pay a bit more tax thanks.

[Vendee]

There are still many in our society taking the Social Security system for a ride.

While that is undoubtedly true in some cases, it must be remembered that the largest part of the SS budget is paid out to people who are in work but not earning enough to survive so the taxpayer is compensating for the employer who is not paying a genuine living wage. The wealthiest employers are getting wealthier, often benefiting from a good supply of cheap overseas labour and "trickle down" simply does not work as those at the top are keeping hold of the money.

[Basil]

the taxpayer is compensating for the employer who is not paying a genuine living wage
Very good point.

[Melchett01]

I think they tried that with the selling off of council houses and utilities - nothing left to sell so it is more borrowing or more taxation..........

Perhaps stop rewarding the housebuilders for banking land, not building truly affordable housing and doing a pretty poor job of the houses they do build.

Something else Mrs May isn't to be trusted on! (There, just kept on topic):ok:

crab,

And that's the problem - flogging off utilities is a one time thing. Once they are gone, that's it - it's like selling the goose rather than the egg. Hence my comment about missing the boat on North Sea oil / gas; whilst not infinite, it was at the time offering a damn sight greater sustainability in terms of income generating potential. And is exactly what I would expect from politicians with no strategic vision and only an eye on the news & election cycles.

I'm certainly no bleeding heart liberal, but a living wage strikes me as a reasonable idea in this day and age; as noted by Vendee and Basil, too many of our illustrious private sector organisations like to pay more attention to share holders than they do employees, the result being very low pay and the state having to step in with social security measures and therefore reduced spending on other areas (like the RAF .. just to keep things relevant!)

I know the hard line capitalists would probably have a field day with such fluffy and compassionate thinking, but our expectations of social responsibility from all sectors of society are increasing. We aren't there yet, but in future I think those companies that are most successful will be the ones doing the right thing as well as the correct thing. In contrast, companies arguing for unrestrained growth at all costs will be seen to be arguing for, in economic terms, the same mechanisms by which cancer exists.

[[email protected]]

Melchett01 - agreed and it is those very hard line capitalists with no social conscience whose greed has got us to where we are now.

I know Victorian working conditions were outrageous but at least many of the big businesses built homes for their workers.

We might get somewhere in this country when we start doing things because they are the right things to do, not the cheapest/most profitable/most career advancing/best spun for the media.

[pusight]

One of the underlying problems with the economy is the creation of (new) money. A good introduction can be found at (I cannot post URLs), search for:

bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy

It is shameful in the extreme (malfeasance in public office?) that successive governments have rescinded their sovereign duty to control the money supply - they now only issue 3% of the total supply, that is the coins and notes.

[Heathrow Harry]

"sovereign duty to control the money supply"

deluded monetarist nonsense from 1980................

[Alber Ratman]

"sovereign duty to control the money supply"

deluded monetarist nonsense from 1980................

Agree. The stuff that damaged our manufacturing base so badly in the 1980s, when investment was required and exactly the opposite happened.

[glad rag]

Back to trusting Mrs May then

Almost like magik the way a counter point to your suicide inducing negativity gets removed allowing you carry on regardless..

:D

[woptb]

Awful Home Sec’,pandered to vested interests, met none of her own ‘unachievable’ targets, apart from hacking the judiciary & police services to pieces. Even worse as a ‘Zombie’ PM,nominally in charge of a zombie government, there only because nobody wants the poison chalice. Is surrounded by a few lickspittles & even more incompetent slimes who she is too weak to sack.Other than that she’s just peachy 😃 Has given gongs to curry favour,see whose been enobled from The 1922 Committee.

[[email protected]]

Almost like magik the way a counter point to your suicide inducing negativity gets removed allowing you carry on regardless..sorry, glad rag - I could hardly get a post in between your pages of helpful, constructive and insightful observations and suggestions:E

[glad rag]

You are more than welcome.

:p

[Onceapilot]

Well, reported on the 5th Jan 18 that Mrs May has decided to delay the Defence review by "months". This seems to be a stalling measure because Gavin Williamson has claimed he needs more time to study the problems and the "£20B" black hole in defence budget. It is reported that there is a huge divide between the views of Hammond and Williamson. :rolleyes:
It does seem to me that, it is unlikely Williamson will avoid the financial cuts. However, it is possible that the extra time will allow some focused redefinition of UK Defence needs that avoids the gradual hollowing-out of all capabilities. :oh:

OAP

[langleybaston]

Awful Home Sec’,pandered to vested interests, met none of her own ‘unachievable’ targets, apart from hacking the judiciary & police services to pieces. Even worse as a ‘Zombie’ PM,nominally in charge of a zombie government, there only because nobody wants the poison chalice. Is surrounded by a few lickspittles & even more incompetent slimes who she is too weak to sack.Other than that she’s just peachy 😃 Has given gongs to curry favour,see whose been enobled from The 1922 Committee.

Sad to say this lifelong Tory voter agrees with you.
Me and lots like me. However, if its to stop the Trots, I dare say we will do as we have always done.
Sod it.

[Private jet]

History does seem to repeat itself. There are a lot of parallels now to the Major government in the mid 90's. A weak, ineffectual "leader", a voting minority in the Commons, a lack of "equality" in society both perceived & in reality, in-fighting within the Conservative party (as I seem to recall over Europe) & a dose of sleaze thrown in for good measure. We all know what happened next. Jeremy just needs to bide his time.

[Onceapilot]

History does seem to repeat itself. There are a lot of parallels now to the Major government in the mid 90's. A weak, ineffectual "leader", a voting minority in the Commons, a lack of "equality" in society both perceived & in reality, in-fighting within the Conservative party (as I seem to recall over Europe) & a dose of sleaze thrown in for good measure. We all know what happened next. Jeremy just needs to bide his time.

Hmmm. If you mean that the Conservative party has not done as well as it might, who could argue? However, if you mean that history shows the British public will elect a far-left led Labour party.....:oh:

OAP

[Heathrow Harry]

Today's Times says that they're still looking at a £ 20Bn hole forecast over the next 10 years in the defence budget and so the National Security Review will be published without the military bit being decided....................

[Onceapilot]

Today's Times says that they're still looking at a £ 20Bn hole forecast over the next 10 years in the defence budget and so the National Security Review will be published without the military bit being decided....................

I guess that will just cover police and border type security?

OAP

[Heathrow Harry]

says there are 12 "strands" including the military - so all the buzz words I guess....

"The national security capability review was launched last summer to consider the changing nature of the threats posed to the UK in the face of an upsurge in Islamist terrorism and cyber warfare from hostile states such as Russia and North Korea. In total it is considering 12 areas of security, including counter terrorism, cyber threats and international aid"

[ShotOne]

Whether you choose to believe Mrs May or not, does anyone seriously maintain that a Corbyn government would improve defence?

[jindabyne]

Shot

Agree your drift. But there will be very many who either do, or quite simply don't care - until it's needed, that is.