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SOPS
21st Dec 2017, 08:21
Police are calling the running down of at least 12 people in the Melbourne CBD a deliberate act.

More to come.....

nomorecatering
21st Dec 2017, 08:45
Video on Facebook shows a crowd pulling a middle eastern looking man with a long beard being pulled from the passenger seat after the car hit a power or light pole.

In last 5 mins, 50km to the south, panic evac of Frankston shopping center after 2 large explosions heard coming from inside the shopping center. Believed to be Gas bottles. Nothing else is known atm.

WingNut60
21st Dec 2017, 09:13
...... a middle eastern looking man with a long beard.......

You may be correct in the end but, I wish people wouldn't say things like that when enthnicity and motive are completely unknown.

Lots of people in Oz match that description without meeting the implied ethnicity at all.

SOPS
21st Dec 2017, 09:17
Same photos are on the 7 news web site...they could just be spreading piece and love on the lead up to Christmas..( all speculation of course).

sitigeltfel
21st Dec 2017, 09:46
You may be correct in the end but, I wish people wouldn't say things like that when enthnicity and motive are completely unknown.

Lots of people in Oz match that description without meeting the implied ethnicity at all.

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/fbd62e3987b7cfc6357999c67eefa90e?width=650

Toadstool
21st Dec 2017, 09:58
Ah Siti

I win my bet. I knew you'd be along presently.

spreading piece and love

SOPS, is that a jammy piece like the piece my granny used to feed me when I was young?

Yamagata ken
21st Dec 2017, 10:01
Nice one sitigeltfel

I have a beard and moustache. I never shave. It's a reaction to my 6 months of Boy Service in 1969.

I run the 9mm comb over my scalp and the 11mm comb over my face before every shower. It's a choice, not a political or religious statement

WingNut60
21st Dec 2017, 10:04
Yes, I know. I had seen the photos too.
But it doesn't do anyone any good to start using the ethnicity card prematurely.

From that photo alone I wouldn't like to bet on his ethnic background.

ian16th
21st Dec 2017, 10:12
Care to take a wild guess at his religion?

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2017, 10:18
Care to take a wild guess at his religion?
None, if you believe religious people, because religious people don't do things like that, they claim, therefore anyone who does something like that is de facto not a member of their religion. As we were told during the civil war in Northern Ireland, when murderers and terrorists were always "nationalist" or "unionist", not "Catholic" or "protestant".

Or you could take the view that I do, that as there is nothing in the way of fact or logic involved in religion it isn't very surprising if religious people do things that don't appear to make sense.

Pontius Navigator
21st Dec 2017, 10:22
Ian, quite.

Brown - no
Beard - no
Car rampage -

Brown, bearded, car rampage - do the holes line up?

TWT
21st Dec 2017, 10:28
From 'The Australian' newspaper :

A vehicle attack on a busy pedestrian crossing in Melbourne’s Flinders Street which left 14 people in hospital was the work of a mentally ill drug addict, police believe.
The Australian understands the attack, which occurred at 4.42pm in the heart of downtown Melbourne, is not being treated as terrorism.
Rather, the driver is thought to be a mentally ill man with a history of addiction to the drug ice.
It is understood he has no known links to extremism and is not known to counter-terrorism authorities.
A second man pictured arrested at the scene was unconnected to the attack, The Australian has been told.
Police have said publicly the attack was deliberate but that the driver’s motive remained unknown.

Toadstool
21st Dec 2017, 11:02
Ian, quite.

Brown - no
Beard - no
Car rampage -

Brown, bearded, car rampage - do the holes line up?

If only we were quick to deduce the line of the holes in air accidents that quickly we could save a lot of time, money and effort.

In fact, we could use this line of thought with just about everything. Do away with courts etc.

WingNut60
21st Dec 2017, 11:08
Care to take a wild guess at his religion?

Take a wild guess? Sure I could. But I wouldn't get on my soap box until there are a few more facts available.

As I said in previous post, the guy in the red shirt could be from just about any ethnic group or religion.
The quote from the Australian seems to indicate that he may not have even been involved.

clareprop
21st Dec 2017, 11:49
From local news reports and CNN:

The driver was known to Victorian Police due to "historical assault matters" and a history of drug use. "We understand he is on a mental health plan and receiving treatment for a mental illness," Patton said. Patton told reporters that while the crash was considered to be deliberate, there was no evidence of a link to terrorism.

Police said the 32-year-old driver was the sole occupant of the white Suzuki 4WD at the time of the crash.

A second man arrested at the scene is not believed to be connected to the incident, police said.

Few post deletions needed above?

Pontius Navigator
21st Dec 2017, 12:07
TS, I asked a question, I did not make a statement.

cattletruck
21st Dec 2017, 12:28
Man was pulled out of his damaged car unconscious.

Pic of an officer checking him for a pulse.
http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/74852fcc141322cbc794edaa4a23579c

Did he lose consciousness before he went through the pedestrian crossing or after? The damage to the car seems minor and a rather ordinary bollard managed to stop the vehicle.

I'm also surprised he managed to get some speed to drive through a red light as the road is notoriously congested with vehicular traffic.

At this point in time there is just too much misinformation going around. Best to wait for more facts.

jolihokistix
21st Dec 2017, 12:33
So with that background, we are to assume a stolen car, and no driving license?

Of course, IS tends to attract, draw out and encourage people with mental problems, so it must be very hard for the authorities to draw such a clear line in the sand.

ian16th
21st Dec 2017, 13:25
Or you could take the view that I do

Not in a month of Sundays.

I'll stick with my well-proven prejudices.

jolihokistix
21st Dec 2017, 13:44
Interesting that al Arabiya (Saudi news outlet) finds the word 'Afghan' to be highly significant in their reporting of the incident.
https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2017/12/21/Car-rams-into-pedestrians-in-Melbourne-up-to-19-injured.html

Pontius Navigator
21st Dec 2017, 13:56
It looks increasingly like holes lined up as second man was filming the first.

Hempy
21st Dec 2017, 14:02
It looks increasingly like holes lined up as second man was filming the first.

So were about 100 other people...

meadowrun
21st Dec 2017, 14:11
"ICE-addicted Afghan-Australian Saeed Noori has deliberately mowed 17 pedestrians down in the CBD in an “act of evil”.
Noori, who was known to police and was on a mental health plan, roared through the Elizabeth St intersection on Flinders St and slammed into innocent shoppers, workers and tourists.
After his Suzuki SUV smashed into a tram stop bollard an off-duty cop — hailed on Thursday night as a hero — dragged Noori out of the vehicle."


Melbourne Herald-Sun

flash8
21st Dec 2017, 14:42
When people read "Mental Illness" as an excuse for such atrocities they substitute their own interpretation, and it invariably means one thing.

As soon as I read that I knew exactly what they try great pains to avoid... the truth.

Pontius Navigator
21st Dec 2017, 14:43
Hempy, but they weren't Afghan

Kelly Hopper
21st Dec 2017, 14:48
Why is it only ever middle eastern bearded gentlemen who drive cars/trucks through pedestrians that suffer from this "mental illness?"

Hempy
21st Dec 2017, 14:59
Hempy, but they weren't Afghan

How do you know where any of them came from? Melbourne is a very multicultural city.

le Pingouin
21st Dec 2017, 15:01
KH, except when they have Greek origins: Melbourne car incident: Four dead, man arrested after pedestrians hit in Bourke Street Mall - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-20/car-hits-several-pedestrians-in-melbournes-cbd/8197876)

Have you seen they way we treat asylum seekers? It induces mental illness in many.

Hempy
21st Dec 2017, 15:09
Why is it only ever middle eastern bearded gentlemen who drive cars/trucks through pedestrians that suffer from this "mental illness?"

You mean like this guy?

Bourke St accused Dimitrious Gargasoulas inches closer to mental-health plea (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bourke-st-accused-dimitrious-gargasoulas-inches-closer-to-mentalhealth-plea-20171204-gzy2it.html)

oh...wait....

le Pingouin
21st Dec 2017, 15:19
KH, did that white supremacist in Charlottesville look a little on the dark side for your taste? Or is it just his 5 o'clock shadow?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/12/virginia-unite-the-right-rally-protest-violence

Kelly Hopper
21st Dec 2017, 15:32
Hempy.
Mental illness has been around a very long time. Driving vehicles through crowds of people has not.
It never ceases to amaze me how many do gooders come out of the woodwork trying to defend the indefensible when these things happen.
Anyone with an once of it knows that using mental illness as an excuse is simply manipulating the justice system in your favour.
I am up to my neck dealing with genuine mental illness and I don't see any tendancy to drive through crowds of people.
What chance do the rest of us have in ever dealing with this problem when there are people like you around bending over backwards making excuses for them?

Kelly Hopper
21st Dec 2017, 15:41
And LP. I suggest you read my post again as it has obviously been misunderstood. The Charlottesville murderer was just that, a murderer. Where was the excuse of "mental illness?" Perhaps he should have tried it to get your sympathy?

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2017, 15:55
Why is it only ever middle eastern bearded gentlemen who drive cars/trucks through pedestrians that suffer from this "mental illness?"
What did happen to that Glasgow bin lorry driver in the end?

le Pingouin
21st Dec 2017, 15:57
KH, psychotics don't kill people, believing themselves to be in mortal danger or that their victim would be better off? Throw in a drug like ice and who knows what happens.

My wife suffers psychotic episodes and truly believes some very weird shit when she's psychotic. She's never been violent or particularly dangerous but I don't doubt that if she felt sufficiently threatened she'd be capable of fairly extreme action.

Again I ask in relation to this: "Why is it only ever middle eastern bearded gentlemen who drive cars/trucks through pedestrians that suffer from this "mental illness?", except when they're Greek?

Kelly Hopper
21st Dec 2017, 16:00
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Glasgow_bin_lorry_crash

Again. Desperate, but still missing the point!

Hempy
21st Dec 2017, 16:12
Hempy.
Mental illness has been around a very long time. Driving vehicles through crowds of people has not.
It never ceases to amaze me how many do gooders come out of the woodwork trying to defend the indefensible when these things happen.
Anyone with an once of it knows that using mental illness as an excuse is simply manipulating the justice system in your favour.
I am up to my neck dealing with genuine mental illness and I don't see any tendancy to drive through crowds of people.
What chance do the rest of us have in ever dealing with this problem when there are people like you around bending over backwards making excuses for them?

I don’t see how you come to the conclusion that I’m making excuses for anyone, bending over backwards or otherwise. You state,

Why is it only ever middle eastern bearded gentlemen who drive cars/trucks through pedestrians that suffer from this "mental illness?"

I point out that the last person to do this in Australia, who is claiming a mental health issue, was not a ‘middle eastern bearded man’, and suddenly I’m making excuses? Pure deflection on your behalf because your assertion is patently incorrect and particularly racist.

Kelly Hopper
21st Dec 2017, 16:21
During appearances at the Melbourne Magistrates' Court in April and May 2017, Gargasoulas made claims including that "Muslim faith is the correct faith according to the whole world," "I am the saviour," "I was under extreme stress, which caused me to have a mental breakdown," "[L]ife is being controlled by the Government," and "I'm very saddened by everything that's happened, but it's due to the illuminati

So your point being?

EGLD
21st Dec 2017, 19:03
Why is it only ever middle eastern bearded gentlemen who drive cars/trucks through pedestrians that suffer from this "mental illness?"

Mentally ill people have always run people over, this isn't a modern phenomenon, and there is absolutely nothing else that links these people together.

:ooh:

The guy that drove into the gates at Mildenhall this week is British and has mental issues too, do we know his name yet?

Ever wonder if the media are keeping key details from us?

clareprop
21st Dec 2017, 19:10
except when they're Greek?

Or Welsh...or Scots...or..oh well, look here for twenty six other cases...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack#List_of_not-terror_related_incidents

EGLD
21st Dec 2017, 19:28
Or Welsh...or Scots...or..oh well, look here for twenty six other cases...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack#List_of_not-terror_related_incidents

List of not-terror related incidents
.
.
.
.
December 2017 Melbourne car attack in Melbourne, Australia in which 19 were injured.


:rolleyes:

look here for twenty six other cases...

Spread over 44 years, and the jury is still out on number 26 currently

Someone should post that stat about more people being killed by lawnmowers than Islamic terrorists

If you ignore 9/11

And you ignore the fact lawnmowers aren't deliberately wired to kill people

Hydromet
21st Dec 2017, 23:54
Meadowrun, quoting the notoriously inaccurate Herald-Sun is not the firmest ground to stand on.

Pappa Smurf
22nd Dec 2017, 00:26
That picture with the guy in the red shirt--where did he come from.Footage shows the driver in a white top and the guy arrested outside the station in a black top.
In one piece of footage a cop is seen lightly slapping the driver across the face who seemed in a dazed state.Who knows,he may have "accidentally" hit his head on the ground.
Been a bit of going ons in Melbourne this week with Iranians and Africans as well.

TWT
22nd Dec 2017, 00:44
Pappa Smurf,

The guy in the red shirt is the 'second person arrested'. He was seen close to the crashed vehicle taking images on his mobile phone. He was found to be in possession of 3 knives in a bag. He has been charged with weapons and drug offences and the police say his arrest is unrelated to that of the car driver.

WingNut60
22nd Dec 2017, 02:44
...And you ignore the fact lawnmowers aren't deliberately wired to kill people

Not sure that Suzuki SUV's are either.

jolihokistix
22nd Dec 2017, 02:57
Maybe the Muslim community worldwide has asked governments to pronounce any further incidents like this as the work of lone nutters.

le Pingouin
22nd Dec 2017, 03:09
joli, I'd stick to chemtrails if I were you as that's more plausible than what you've just proposed.

jolihokistix
22nd Dec 2017, 03:24
Gotta look at these things from different angles I reckon, Pingouin!

Krystal n chips
22nd Dec 2017, 04:18
It looks increasingly like holes lined up as second man was filming the first.

About those holes ......the ones in your instant deductive analysis that is...

Melbourne car attack an isolated incident, says PM Turnbull - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/42451576)

WingNut60
22nd Dec 2017, 05:40
You've gotta laugh.

The guy in the red, chequered shirt, arguably the more "muslim looking" of the two and a significant figure in this thread running to three pages (refer post #02), was not involved in the incident at all, other than as a not-so-innocent bystander, taking pictures.

The actual miscreant, though sporting a beard, otherwise looks like many others of Afghan origin, remarkably non-descript; European even.

I am not an apologist for muslim extremism or any other aberrant behaviour, especially that carried out in the name of religion. But let's be a little bit fair.

This thread had started judging before the cops had the idiot out of the car and on the ground. (Oops, that's a bit judgemental too).

StAn gelo
22nd Dec 2017, 06:28
None, if you believe religious people, because religious people don't do things like that, they claim, therefore anyone who does something like that is de facto not a member of their religion. As we were told during the civil war in Northern Ireland, when murderers and terrorists were always "nationalist" or "unionist", not "Catholic" or "protestant".

Or you could take the view that I do, that as there is nothing in the way of fact or logic involved in religion it isn't very surprising if religious people do things that don't appear to make sense.

I recall the terrorist murderers being either 'loyalist' or 'republican' .... not 'unionist' or 'nationalist'.

owen meaney
22nd Dec 2017, 06:47
With the poor misunderstood sub Saharan teenagers and now the poor mentally ill afghans and Greeks, living in Melbourne, it is a place I wouldn't visit unless armed. Very sad state of affairs in our country.

le Pingouin
22nd Dec 2017, 07:33
How about you just stay away then owen, we don't want you here either. I'd feel safer.

owen meaney
22nd Dec 2017, 08:07
How about you just stay away then owen, we don't want you here either. I'd feel safer.It is my country mate, I'll visit where ever I wish to, and if that means coming armed, so be it. BTW most of us older Australians can create a weapon out of just about anything.

Krystal n chips
22nd Dec 2017, 08:37
I recall the terrorist murderers being either 'loyalist' or 'republican' .... not 'unionist' or 'nationalist'.

Given your location, this is possibly no surprise.

Unfortunately, the initials UDA / UFF / UVA made their own significant contribution to the carnage.

SOPS
22nd Dec 2017, 09:12
By my definition, anyone that comes to my country, accepts our hospitality and our welfare, and then seeks to kill us, has firstly a mental illness and secondly is a terrorist. The two go hard in hand..end of point.

Pinky the pilot
22nd Dec 2017, 09:37
By my definition, anyone that comes to my country, accepts our hospitality and our welfare, and then seeks to kill us, has firstly a mental illness and secondly is a terrorist. The two go hard in hand..end of point.

SOPS; I suspect that more than a few people would agree with that. FWIW, so do I.

Owen; I suspect that there may be an increasing number of average Aussies who would be thinking about arming themselves for the purpose of self protection. Given the proficiency of the average Aussie Copper with their issued sidearms, that does not surprise me in the slightest!

BTW most of us older Australians can create a weapon out of just about anything.

I was once shown by a former member of the SAS how to create a fairly efficient weapon out of a tightly rolled newspaper.:eek:

In reality, It is the 'how you use it,' not the way it is made that actually does the damage!:hmm:

le Pingouin
22nd Dec 2017, 10:21
"if that means coming armed" I do hope you get searched.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2017, 10:44
I suspect that there may be an increasing number of average Aussies who would be thinking about arming themselves for the purpose of self protection.
And a hand gun protects you how, exactly, against a ton of motor vehicle coming at you from behind?

Just do the sums. Subtract the momentum of a magazine full of bullets from the momentum of the car and it makes FA difference.

owen meaney
22nd Dec 2017, 11:22
And a hand gun protects you how, exactly, against a ton of motor vehicle coming at you from behind?

Just do the sums. Subtract the momentum of a magazine full of bullets from the momentum of the car and it makes FA difference.Well you could use your imagination and use what ever is to hand, but worry not Gertrude you wombat, go back to sleep, others will protect you I'm sure.

Kelly Hopper
22nd Dec 2017, 13:09
I awoke this morning with an analogy to mind:
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and leaves duck feathers behind it, I would bet pretty much anything that it's a duck.
Some however would still argue it's a horse if it squatted down and laid a duck egg on their lap!

And EGLD your comparison with lawn mowers is so way off the mark it is not worth blinking at. But I will...
How many people were caught up in a lawn mower "attack" in November 2017?
Compared with...
133 attacks
2013 killed
1123 injured

I cannot publish my source as it is censored by...well you can guess? Someone else that thinks a duck is a horse!

But Merry Christmas Everyone. :)

nomorecatering
22nd Dec 2017, 13:21
https://www.facebook.com/RitaPanahiColumnist/photos/a.866739496677952.1073741827.866573653361203/1756448291040397/?type=3&theater

Todays front page. Say no more.

mickjoebill
22nd Dec 2017, 14:33
It looked like the both driver and passenger side airbags deployed, indicating the seat was occupied, so I assumed two people were involved.
Appearances can be deceiving.


Mjb

Hempy
22nd Dec 2017, 15:48
It looked like the both driver and passenger side airbags deployed, indicating the seat was occupied, so I assumed two people were involved.
Appearances can be deceiving.


Mjb

:rolleyes:

megan
22nd Dec 2017, 16:17
Local ABCPolice say the man who crashed his car into Melbourne pedestrians yesterday has blamed "the mistreatment of Muslims" for "some of his activities", but they still do not know what motivated him to drive through a busy crossingA 32-year-old Afghan refugee. Perhaps the mistreatment was not enough welfare cash to support his drug habit. I'd say he drove through the crowd for the reason he stated, perceived mistreatment of Muslims, which makes him a terrorist aka making a political statement. Why the tip toeing?

Kelly Hopper
22nd Dec 2017, 16:28
Well I can go along with a theory that anyone who follows a 6th century philosophy, believing that there is a sky god peodophile giving 78 virgins away that hates everyone who doesn't agree with his hatred of everyone and feels compelled to commit mass murder whenever possible as someone suffering from mental issues? Wouldn't you?

clareprop
22nd Dec 2017, 16:40
Well I can go along with a theory that anyone who follows a 6th century philosophy, believing that there is a sky god peodophile giving 78 virgins away that hates everyone who doesn't agree with his hatred of everyone and feels compelled to commit mass murder whenever possible as someone suffering from mental issues?

Personally, I believe that anyone who fervently believes in a deity is suffering from mental issues.

oicur12.again
22nd Dec 2017, 17:12
133 attacks
2013 killed
1123 injured

Kelly, I am pretty sure I know where your information comes from and many of the incidents on the list have been discredited.

I’m curious as to why you have chosen to include a global database of terrorist events when discussing what you think was a terrorist event in Melbourne. Should we include motor vehicle accident rates in China when we analyze the threat posed to drivers on Australian roads?

Kelly Hopper
22nd Dec 2017, 19:23
Discredited by whom? The same people that are now claiming that every one that hits the headlines in the west as a loner with mental health issues? That was my earlier point, lost on some here.
If you know my source you will know it is not a global database of terrorist events, it is a global database of i s l a m i s t terrorist events. And everyone is detailed.
An afgan, driving a SUV, foot hard down, at exactly the same spot in Melbourne as a confirmed attack a year ago? Duck or horse?

TWT
22nd Dec 2017, 20:29
at exactly the same spot in Melbourne

Incorrect Kelly. Not the 'same spot'

Captain Dart
22nd Dec 2017, 20:51
Ironically, very close to the area, hangs a large banner on a church steeple.

It says 'Let's Fully Welcome Refugees'.


Disclaimer: very few are actual refugees. Most are economic migrants, largely males of military age who have bypassed many 'safe' countries in order to ride the Aussie taxpayer-subsidised gravy train. But it makes for great virtue-signalling.

EGLD
22nd Dec 2017, 21:03
I awoke this morning with an analogy to mind:
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and leaves duck feathers behind it, I would bet pretty much anything that it's a duck.
Some however would still argue it's a horse if it squatted down and laid a duck egg on their lap!

And EGLD your comparison with lawn mowers is so way off the mark it is not worth blinking at. But I will...
How many people were caught up in a lawn mower "attack" in November 2017?
Compared with...
133 attacks
2013 killed
1123 injured

I cannot publish my source as it is censored by...well you can guess? Someone else that thinks a duck is a horse!

But Merry Christmas Everyone. :)

i was being sarcastic :rolleyes:

packapoo
22nd Dec 2017, 21:12
A most illuminating reason to totally reject accepting any refugee.

Suck you dry and screw you over.

clareprop
22nd Dec 2017, 21:28
A most illuminating reason to totally reject accepting any refugee.

Suck you dry and screw you over.

And a very merry Christmas to you too..goodwill to all men.

obgraham
22nd Dec 2017, 21:29
I guess I'll start believing in the "lone wolf with mental issues" when the next attacker is a blonde Scandinavian who moved to Oz and was upset that it was too hot at Christmas there.

flash8
22nd Dec 2017, 21:39
Funny how most of these attacks are "lone wolf with mental issues" but the attack on the British MP stabbed was a "Terrorist event" even though the man was blatantly mentally ill.

When I read "lone wolf with mental issues" now I substitute another more accurate description.

SOPS
22nd Dec 2017, 21:51
It looked like the both driver and passenger side airbags deployed, indicating the seat was occupied, so I assumed two people were involved.
Appearances can be deceiving.


Mjb

I have the same model of Suziki...it does not turn off the passenger side airbag if the seat is not occupied...

WingNut60
22nd Dec 2017, 21:55
A most illuminating reason to totally reject accepting any refugee.

Suck you dry and screw you over.

In some cases, yes. But not all, or even most.

The influx of European migrants following WWII was predominantly refugees and that wave seemed to work out pretty good.

The influx following the Vietnam war has, by and large worked out OK. And there we had a moral obligation to take those boats; we'd invaded their country and then left them in the lurch when we decided it was all just too hard.

Similarly, there has to be some moral obligation with the Afghan / Iraqi / Syrian interventions. Albeit, it needs to be a controlled process with proper screening.
If you don't want your share of the aftermath then don't get involved in the first place.

The wave of immigrants escaping British Thatcherism was a bit spotty, but all-in-all not too bad. Though a whole heap of them were economic opportunists with an embedded "suck and screw" philosophy.

Where I'm baffled is what the hell we're doing taking sub-Sharan Africans.
That's a link I just can't make.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2017, 22:53
Most are economic migrants
I have been an economic migrant three times, moving where I live in order to take a job somewhere else, because I could do the job and the locals couldn't. This is called, by Tory politicians, "getting on yer bike", and used to be seen by them to be preferable to sitting around at home on the dole.

svhar
22nd Dec 2017, 23:05
Taking a job somewhere else is totally different from abusing the welfare system somewhere else.

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2017, 23:26
Sure. I've never actually discovered how to abuse the welfare system - last time I had no work for a year I didn't bother to claim the dole, as the tiny amount I would have got wasn't worth the hassle of doing the paperwork.

WingNut60
23rd Dec 2017, 03:51
Now being reported:

Police have charged Saeed Noori, the man accused of ploughing a car into pedestrians in central Melbourne on Thursday, with 18 counts of attempted murder and one count of conduct endangering life.
Mr Noori is expected to face Melbourne Magistrates Court this afternoon.

To charge him with attempted murder the police must believe that they will be able to show intent.
If that is the case, then it is hard to see why this would not now be classed as an act of terrorism.

SOPS
23rd Dec 2017, 06:06
Im happy to bet my house, that the people who got run over felt terror. He is a terrorist..full stop. I just wish our Lefty PM would stop his hand wringing and call it for what it is.

le Pingouin
23rd Dec 2017, 06:18
Not hard at all - the police are convinced enough that his actions were deliberate but haven't sufficiently established a motive. Now they've charged him they can hold him for as long as it takes.

"The court was told the motivation for attack remained under investigation and further charges were being considered."

Flinders St: Saeed Noori charged with 18 counts of attempted murder over Melbourne car attack - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-23/flinders-st-car-attack-saeed-noori-charged-by-police/9283876)

So why wasn't Dimitrious Gargasoulas charged with terrorism when he was arrested?

WingNut60
23rd Dec 2017, 06:30
...........So why wasn't Dimitrious Gargasoulas charged with terrorism when he was arrested?

Because:

a) there seems to be a very real case for insanity, in his case
b) it would be more difficult to prosecute and hold more risk (of failing) whereas;
c) murder should be easier to prosecute and effectively keep him out of harms way for a very long period.

But what's the big deal with the use or otherwise of "terrorism" anyway?
It is just one more serious criminal charge, currently politicised to the point of losing all meaning.

Hempy
23rd Dec 2017, 06:30
What is a terrorist act?

a ‘terrorist act’ is an act, or a threat to commit an act, that is done with the intention to coerce or influence the public or any government by intimidation to advance a political, religious or ideological cause, and the act causes:

 death, serious harm or endangers a person
 serious damage to property
 a serious risk to the health or safety of the public, or
 seriously interferes with, disrupts or destroys critical infrastructure such as a telecommunications or electricity network.

https://www.ag.gov.au/NationalSecurity/Counterterrorismlaw/Documents/Australias%20counter%20terrorism%20laws.pdf

jolihokistix
23rd Dec 2017, 06:38
So this 'known' drug addict was free to own and drive a car, as long as he took his other, legal meds, but he then misses once and turns into a mass-mower of humans?


Is that correct so far, and is there anything in this story that is strange, or could be tweaked in any way?

Clare Prop
23rd Dec 2017, 06:43
Seeing as it's Victoria he will probably just be given bail and the hand wringers will be coming up with some new hashtag about hugging strangers on trams while threatening to kill anyone who makes a comment showing any kind of opinion on religion, race or, god forbid, gender. This is the city that had to have pedestrian crossing lights that were gender diverse while lawless gangs run amok with no consequences for their actions.

Talking of lawless gangs, I thought the guy in the red shirt looked like Ned Kelly. As do so many young blokes these days.

le Pingouin
23rd Dec 2017, 06:55
Noori didn't apply for bail, so he's still detained. Clare, your tabloid induced paranoia is showing.

WingNut60
23rd Dec 2017, 06:58
https://www.ag.gov.au/NationalSecurity/Counterterrorismlaw/Documents/Australias%20counter%20terrorism%20laws.pdf

My question is, as always, what's the significance of motive?
Why single these three categories out?
With very few exceptions (eg some mental illness) all such crimes are carried out with some motive, even if only recognised by the perpetrator.
What is the point of differentiating the crime based on motive?

Surely the only significant factor is consequence, not motive.

By bringing motive into the equation for these cases you are allowing that heinous crime can be prosecuted differently depending on why you did it.
Something with which I do not agree.

sitigeltfel
23rd Dec 2017, 07:37
Surely the only significant factor is consequence, not motive.

There is so much wrong with that statement and it is difficult to know where to start.
Reviewed your comments on this it is obvious that you are blatantly avoiding the elephant in the room, making any excuse not to turn round and look at it and telling everyone else it does not exist.
But it is there, and no amount of pressure to disguise it, or censor its existence, will make go away.

Pontius Navigator
23rd Dec 2017, 08:08
I think there are two non-terror strands here.

The first is the almost standard policy statement with a sub-text, don't panic, it is an isolated incident. This is designed to avoid panicking the public and avoid an immediate anti-terrorist backlash.

The other is, for want of an accurate description, the liberal Christian one of innocent until proven guilty and the facts are known.

To counter these is the understandable, lock the doors, get the guns out. Over reaction maybe but I think a sensible precaution. That is can exaggeration but suggestive of prudent defensive measures.

SOPS
23rd Dec 2017, 08:16
Seeing as it's Victoria he will probably just be given bail and the hand wringers will be coming up with some new hashtag about hugging strangers on trams while threatening to kill anyone who makes a comment showing any kind of opinion on religion, race or, god forbid, gender. This is the city that had to have pedestrian crossing lights that were gender diverse while lawless gangs run amok with no consequences for their actions.

Talking of lawless gangs, I thought the guy in the red shirt looked like Ned Kelly. As do so many young blokes these days.

Clare has a valid point. To quote from todays Australian....A week ago a gang of youths (allegedly) bashed and robbed beachgoers and tourists in a wild brawl on the St Kilda foreshore. Witness said police were outnumbered as they struggled to deal with about 200 youths. mainly of African appearance, stole phone, watches and literally shirts of peoples backs. They then continued to smash up a McDonalds store.

When asked why these gangs were running wild, seemingly with impunity, and why no arrests were made, the Police Commissioner said....we have to balance these peoples human rights.

So in essence...the criminals are being allowed to take over the streets, because the hand wringers are worried about their human rights, while the public seems to have no rights at all...

The left has gone stark raving mad.

owen meaney
23rd Dec 2017, 08:51
Pontious and SOPS have nailed the issue as far as I can see.
The police have abrogated their responsibility, the ones we gave up to them to live in a civil society.
You are now responsible for you and your families safety, be prepared to defend yourselves.
Some here will not like the fact that their benign paradigm has been ripped apart, and will be in denial until the unthinkable happens.

Such is life, or in this case death.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Dec 2017, 10:13
By bringing motive into the equation for these cases you are allowing that heinous crime can be prosecuted differently depending on why you did it.
Something with which I do not agree.
Let's hope you don't hurt someone by momentary inattention whilst driving, lest you be sentenced the same as a terrorist who achieves the same outcome.

Clare Prop
23rd Dec 2017, 11:52
Not tabloid induced paranoia but hearing from friends in Melbourne, many of them very firmly on the left, who are sick of the way the Apex gangs are just allowed to run riot, car jack, rob and assault people and if they do get as far as a magistrate, just being let go as so many of them are underage.

I was in Bourke St just after this happened last time.

le Pingouin
23rd Dec 2017, 12:18
Except that the Apex gang aren't running riot. But it has been extensively hyped by the Herald Sun - typical tabloid sensationalism to induce fear and anxiety and sell more papers.

owen meaney
23rd Dec 2017, 12:24
Killing someone whilst driving a motor vehicle through inattention is deemed "negligent driving causing death", and is not the same as purposely driving into a crowd at Flinders Station and trying to murder them.

And the APEX street gang and their cohorts are not a beatup by newspapers,
but then again Lepengiun has already indicated that he is rolling over and playing dead in the hope the bad guys won't see him. Good luck with that mate.

le Pingouin
23rd Dec 2017, 12:41
But the sensationalist over-hyping of them is - The Hun specialises. It sells papers and helps keep the public alarmed and primed for "law and order" political campaigns.

Good luck when you get arrested for wandering public streets carrying a concealed weapon, like the second bloke who was arrested in Flinders Street.......

I haven't rolled over anything - I just don't immediately assume the worst when there is no solid evidence and no immediate personal threat. I don't live in fear like you clearly do.

meadowrun
23rd Dec 2017, 12:53
carrying a concealed weapon, like the second bloke


It was reported as "3" knives.


Personally I can't remember the last time I carried 3 knives when out in public. Of course the only time that would happen was if I was taking them out to be sharpened, or had just bought them from a shop or was a chef going home.


Anyone finding out why he was carrying three?

le Pingouin
23rd Dec 2017, 13:04
I suspect it's something like that as well - he happened to be in the really wrong place at the really wrong time. Presumably that will be for the court to determine as he's "expected to be charged on summons over possession of cannabis and a weapon".

Flinders Street driver was on mental health plan, had no known terror links: Melbourne police - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-22/melbourne-car-crash-police-investigate-flinders-street-scene/9281044)

Ex Cargo Clown
23rd Dec 2017, 13:06
Doesn't sound like the Melbourne I know. St Kilda was good fun, even used to have a laugh with the prossies and drug dealers there on my way to the TAB. Was there when the Monash Uni shootng happened, didn't scare me. There however was always a left-wing undercurrent at uni though, didn't enjoy that. Felt safe everywhere, even Broady, Footscray etc. Sounds like it's gone downhill.

Back on topic. I can't see how you can accidently mow down people outside a busy place with no intention. It would be a billion to one chance. Motive is incredibly important.

This isn't an anti-Aussie rant, we have our own terrorist issues in Manchester, but if looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......

le Pingouin
23rd Dec 2017, 13:43
ECC, Melbourne hasn't changed much. Don't believe everything you read in Rupert's publications and hear from the RWNJs on here. Students being left-wing at uni? Who'd have thunk it!

It's been clearly stated that Noori is under a "mental health plan" so there's a not insubstantial chance he was motivated by internal terrors. Talk of ducks and quacking is refusing to even acknowledge this possibility.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Dec 2017, 14:11
Back on topic. I can't see how you can accidently mow down people outside a busy place with no intention.
Ask the Glasgow bin lorry driver.

WingNut60
23rd Dec 2017, 15:13
There is so much wrong with that statement and it is difficult to know where to start.
Reviewed your comments on this it is obvious that you are blatantly avoiding the elephant in the room, making any excuse not to turn round and look at it and telling everyone else it does not exist.
But it is there, and no amount of pressure to disguise it, or censor its existence, will make go away.

Whereas your problem is that you don't know the difference between motive and intent.

So I stand by my question (here simplified for those who can not differentiate) :

If you intend to kill someone and then achieve your goal, what does it matter why you did it?
Religion, politics, sexual bias. Who gives a toss. Certainly not the victim.

Why do you need a different name and definition to prosecute a murder committed because of philosophical leaning versus killing someone because you just don't like them.

WingNut60
23rd Dec 2017, 15:17
Let's hope you don't hurt someone by momentary inattention whilst driving, lest you be sentenced the same as a terrorist who achieves the same outcome.

Once again, can't tell the difference between intent and motive.

longer ron
23rd Dec 2017, 15:25
Ask the Glasgow bin lorry driver.
On the other hand the Glasgow bin lorry driver hid his medical history from 2 different employers,him passing out was not just an accident in that he knew it might happen but still was happy to be a heavy vehicle driver.
If you read up about his health and employment history,then his was an 'accident' waiting to happen - he was lucky not to get prosecuted for it,one could understand the victims families anguish.

EGLD
23rd Dec 2017, 17:47
Funny how most of these attacks are "lone wolf with mental issues" but the attack on the British MP stabbed was a "Terrorist event" even though the man was blatantly mentally ill..

And don't forget, he was an officially elected representative of the Brexit voters :rolleyes:

Remainers really were despicable during that period, weren't they

EGLD
23rd Dec 2017, 17:50
Ask the Glasgow bin lorry driver.

Twice now you've brought up this unrelated and completely different event

The guy in Glasgow had a heart attack, please stop trying to show false equivalence when appeasing terrorists

Kelly Hopper
23rd Dec 2017, 18:13
- he happened to be in the really wrong place at the really wrong time.
With the really wrong number of knives whilst really wrongly filming the act!

Are you for real? Really?

oicur12.again
23rd Dec 2017, 18:38
“Discredited by whom?”

The very authorities charged with investigation. Just because you find a list of “Islamist terrorist acts” on the Internet does not mean the data is accurate.


“……that the people who got run over felt terror. He is a terrorist..full stop.”

No, that’s not how it works at all. How someone “felt” has nothing to do with how the crime is categorized. That’s up there I “felt the plane was going to crash”.


“By bringing motive into the equation for these cases you are allowing that heinous crime can be prosecuted differently depending on why you did it.”

Actually, motive is a key ingredient in prosecution. The results are not.

More importantly, your suggestion that motive should be ignored simply sweeps the event under the carpet and prevents debate and further understanding of exactly why this occurred.

Kelly Hopper
23rd Dec 2017, 18:49
“Discredited by whom?”

The very authorities charged with investigation. Just because you find a list of “Islamist terrorist acts” on the Internet does not mean the data is accurate

So go on then... disprove it?

Kelly Hopper
23rd Dec 2017, 18:54
Start with this one..


Män! Inga mer problem i sovrummet om ni gör detta dagligen
In one month, police in the Swedish city of Malmö have received three reports of brutal gang rapes and torture. Now citizens are warned not to go alone at night.

- These predators aim for lonely women who are walking alone. I want to say that one should be extra careful and maybe not go alone, but rather together two and two or in groups, says Anders Nilsson of the Malmö police to SVT.

On Saturday night, the police in Malmö received a report of a third violent gang rape since November. This time it was a minor girl who had been raped and tortured by several men at a playground in the Sofielund district.

- The assault against the 17-year-old indicates a special kind of ruthlessness and abuse, says Nilsson.

Among other things, lighter fluid was poured on the girl's vagina and set on fire.

All three rapes during the last month have similarities: They have been outdoors in the vicinity of green spaces and playgrounds. And they have all happened at night.

- It is more than one perpetrator, and we try to put a jigsaw puzzle together while waiting for answers from the DNA analyzes, says Nilsson.

As usual, police do not want to answer questions if they have specific descriptions of the perpetrators, rapists who are still out there.

- We have some information, but we are not going say anything because of the ongoing investigation. We do not want to influence witnesses, says Nilsson.

Mats Attin has worked for the police for years. He is shocked.

- We have not experienced anything like this before. They really have crossed a line. The dream is that we find eyewitnesses who have seen the incidents or the perpetrators before or after the rapes, says Attin.

Just to make it clear, gang rapes have not been popular among Swedish men for 1000 years, not since the Viking era, so it is highly unlikely that the perpetrators are ethnic Swedes.

le Pingouin
24th Dec 2017, 04:26
KH, I'm being very real. Which bit of the following don't you understand?

"A second man, 24, who was seen filming the incident and found to be carrying a bag with knives in it, was also arrested yesterday afternoon.

He was interviewed by investigators last night but police now say he was not involved or connected with the initial incident.

He has now been released and is expected to be charged on summons over possession of cannabis and a weapon."


Flinders Street driver was on mental health plan, had no known terror links: Melbourne police - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-22/melbourne-car-crash-police-investigate-flinders-street-scene/9281044)


He was a bystander and very decidedly not a participant.

Ex Cargo Clown
24th Dec 2017, 05:57
"the mistreatment of Muslims" is a worrying fact. Also that he was known to Police is worrying. Don't know how Gertude can compare this to Glasgow. The chanes of it being an accident is nigh on impossible if they know Melbourne. couldn't hit a softer target.

wiggy
24th Dec 2017, 06:12
If it seems the Glasgow incident can’t be used by way of comparison then perhaps this is more of a parallel, also from the U.K.

Panic outside London's Natural History Museum as car hits pedestrians leaving nine people in hospital - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/multiple-people-injured-after-car-11303608):

Man arrested after Natural History Museum car crash released | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/08/police-release-man-arrested-after-natural-history-museum-crash-6984931/)

As for the significance of the bystander filming...see the above report....in this part of the world these days SOP for any unusual event isn’t run and hide etc, it is whip out the phone and start filming...

cattletruck
24th Dec 2017, 06:44
Personally I can't remember the last time I carried 3 knives when out in public. Of course the only time that would happen was if I was taking them out to be sharpened, or had just bought them from a shop or was a chef going home.


Many part-time/emergency chefs carry their own knives - not just because they're expensive but they're also their tools of their trade. Another hint is the small amount of marijuana they found on him which seems to be the lubrication of the hospitality industry.

Unfortunately the exploitation of foreign chefs working illegally in Melbourne is a very huge problem.

Clare Prop
24th Dec 2017, 07:14
Le P, I don't think I've ever read the Herald Sun to my knowledge, I get my information from real people, friends who live in Melbourne. If your area is free from these Apex thugs then lucky you but many areas of Melbourne are not. And good luck trying to sell your house in those areas if you want to move away to somewhere safer.

le Pingouin
24th Dec 2017, 07:25
And where do your friends and people who buy houses get their news from in Melbourne? The Herald Sun.

Clare Prop
24th Dec 2017, 07:39
They get their information from personal experience. Where do you get yours from?

You do love to make assumptions and judgements, don't you.

le Pingouin
24th Dec 2017, 07:57
Where would people who buy houses largely get their information from? The media. What is the largest selling newspaper in Melbourne? The Herald Sun.

I know people who live in the south-eastern suburbs who don't feel particularly threatened - their personal experience.

Clare Prop
24th Dec 2017, 08:26
OK well if you say so, the Apex gang don't exist. Lucky you to live in a such a privileged bubble! Very few people actually go out and buy newspapers now, if I was looking for a house then that is the last place I would look. Oh and apparently Bourke Street was a hoax and all those dead people were just actors. Have a good one.

le Pingouin
24th Dec 2017, 09:02
Sigh. Nothing like hysterical misrepresentation. I don't live in a privileged bubble, I didn't say the Apex gang doesn't exist, I didn't say people buying houses look in the Hun for houses to buy and I didn't say Bourke Street was a hoax.

Please don't shoot the guy in the red suit and white beard when comes down your chimney tonight - he's not a home invader and your kids might get upset.

Hempy
24th Dec 2017, 09:10
Where would people who buy houses largely get their information from? The media. What is the largest selling newspaper in Melbourne? The Herald Sun.

I know people who live in the south-eastern suburbs who don't feel particularly threatened - their personal experience.

I live in McKinnon and have done for over a decade. I have never, not once, felt threatened or intimidated by ‘gangs’ (or Muslims, or terrorists), either here or anywhere else in Melbourne I’ve traveled, although I have occasionally seen a group of ‘yoofs’ that I suppose you could classify as a ‘gang’. I’ve never felt the need to carry a weapon for protection, in fact it’s never even crossed my mind. About 8 or 9 years ago someone broke into my garage and stole an empty mower fuel can and an extension lead...

I could sell my house tomorrow for 3 times what I paid for it.

Thankfully, the majority of the people I know - neighbours, colleagues, friends - are intelligent enough to recognise the race baiting fear campaign peddaled by certain feckless media outlets and ‘alt-right’ pundits exactly for what it is; a race baiting fear campaign.

As far as I can see, their campaign is tailored to two types of audience; those bereft of an IQ sufficiently adequate enough to allow critical thinking and who simply ‘swallow the kool aid’, and natural born racists who grasp onto anything that suits their agenda in order to attempt to legitimatise their bigotry. I unfortunately happened to be in Melton when the ‘Reclaim Australia’ mob held their rally there a couple of years ago and both types were easily recognisable, particularly the racists.

They were the ones covering their faces......

SOPS
24th Dec 2017, 10:05
It must be so lovely to live in the Lefts "wunder world"...My sister and her partner who are left of the left..no they are left of the far left...they want to open the borders to all comers and come what may...

Hempy
24th Dec 2017, 10:48
It must be so lovely to live in the Lefts "wunder world"...My sister and her partner who are left of the left..no they are left of the far left...they want to open the borders to all comers and come what may...

I live in the centre, but I dare say it probably would be lovely living in your so called “wunder world”. A far sight more lovely than spending your days looking over your shoulder, feeling the need for a weapon, and stricken with fear that you’ll fall victim to an attack statistically less likely than being struck by lightning. But hey, each to their own :ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Dec 2017, 10:58
although I have occasionally seen a group of ‘yoofs’ that I suppose you could classify as a ‘gang’
Well quite.

My wife cycled into a dark alleyway once on her way home, only to see a 'gang' of 'yoofs' appear at the other end of the alleyway coming towards her ...

As they got nearer one of them called out:


















"Hey Mummy, what are you doing here?"

owen meaney
24th Dec 2017, 11:24
Clare Prop, People like Hempy, The pengioun, et al live in their own little world. One where all those who disagree with them are paranoid or belong to the Alt Right.

They are very mouthy on these bulletin boards but would not have the intestinal fortitude if they were challenged for real.

They will rely on others to protect themselves and their families, ironically the very same people they despise.

le Pingouin
24th Dec 2017, 12:13
owen, I don't despise the military or police. I'm not sure who else you're meaning. Is an invasion imminent?

Pontius Navigator
24th Dec 2017, 14:44
spending your days looking over your shoulder, feeling the need for a weapon, and stricken with fear that you’ll fall victim to an attack statistically less likely than being struck by lightning. But hey, each to their own :ok:

There are two possibilities here. Indeed look over your shoulder, avoid dark alleys and generally take precautions and minimise risks. The other, it is all media hype, I can continue to wear my mini skirt and heels and taske my regular short cut though the park in the early hours.

Oh, and airport and other security screening is a waste of time induced by a knee jerk reaction to such media hype.

le Pingouin
24th Dec 2017, 15:26
Pontius, that's a false dichotomy. There are considerable possibilities between hyper-vigilance and totally ignorance. Has it ever been any different?

And yes, airport security is largely security theatre. Given the expertise of most of the people who operate the scanning equipment (not the operators fault - it's generally not treated as a highly skilled, highly paid job) and the difficulty in remaining attentive to finding the proverbial needle in a haystack, the chances of sneaking something through are probably quite good. I've inadvertently "smuggled" a 6" screwdriver onto flights several times.

Pontius Navigator
24th Dec 2017, 16:37
Le pingouin, I was merely taking extremes to illustrate the point. We only need look at this tread to see there are those automatically suspicious of the stereotypical terrorist and those that are strict adherents to innocent until proven.

I know there have been many attacks perpetrated by 'clean skins' such as the doctor at Glasgow Airport.

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Dec 2017, 16:38
And yes, airport security is largely security theatre.
The last scheduled flight I took, there were some security processes on departure, but as the entire airfield is effectively unfenced I could have then picked up pretty well anything that I'd previously stashed airside.

My previous departure from the same airfield it was me doing the flying, and there was a security check the first time we went out to the aircraft, but whilst waiting for flyable weather we went backwards and forwards into the terminal several times and weren't checked again.

oicur12.again
24th Dec 2017, 18:02
“So go on then... disprove it?”

Well let’s take a quick look at just one example.

The FLL airport shooting is on the list despite findings by the FBI and the DHS that no link to terrorism could be found.

Its just one example, there are others but time is limited.

Interestingly the FLL shooting, the recent incident in MEL and many so called terrorist events along with the VAST majority of mass shootings here in the US are linked.

Not by a common social or political motive but a serious problem with how we deal with mental health and the proliferation of prescription drugs.

“Just to make it clear, gang rapes have not been popular among Swedish men for 1000 years”

An interesting story you are using here.

Firstly, statistics in Sweden appear to show an increase in the incidence of rape in recent years not because of the reasons you are alluding to but because of changes in legislation relating to sex crimes and the broadening of the definition used when collating data pertaining to sex crime.

There has also been legislation passed making it easier and safer for women to report sex crimes and so more women are coming forward following events.

According to recent studies conducted by the Swedish Government, the UN and the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, there is no indication that immigration has resulted in an increase in exposure women have to sex crimes.

Secondly, why are you gathering data from Sweden (particularly considering it does not help your argument). As I asked before, should Australia shape its road traffic laws according to data from Chinese road accident statistics?

owen meaney
24th Dec 2017, 20:45
As I asked before, should Australia shape its road traffic laws according to data from Chinese road accident statistics? Bad analogy mate, Australia based a lot of it's road rules on UK and USA.

Is an invasion imminent? A leading question there Penguin, Aristotle would be proud of you.
Some would say the invasion is underway already, but you were hoping for that answer, weren't you mate?
Some see only good things from the immigrants coming to their country, others see only bad, including the increase in crime in our major cities, I live in the bush and don't really give a **** either way, only that I don't go to the cities unless I'm armed.

stricken with fear that you’ll fall victim to an attackHempy, Carrying a weapon means traveling without fear, you conflate cause with effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlFobM0BPGU From the SBS, make of it what you will

Merry Christmas to those that subscribe to Christianity, for the rest Bah Humbug.

EGLD
25th Dec 2017, 08:23
fear that you’ll fall victim to an attack statistically less likely than being struck by lightning.

What is it with people trying to trivialize mass murder committed by Islamic terrorists by comparing it to accidents?

Can you understand how a deliberate concert bombing targeted at children is different to being struck by lightning or run over by your own lawnmower?

A deliberate malicious act, directed at a single group of people in place at the same time, couldn't be more different to a meaningless accident statistic based on an entire population.

You have to ask yourself; what is the motivation behind trying to normalize this?

Hempy
25th Dec 2017, 11:48
What is it with people trying to trivialize mass murder committed by Islamic terrorists by comparing it to accidents?

Can you understand how a deliberate concert bombing targeted at children is different to being struck by lightning or run over by your own lawnmower?

A deliberate malicious act, directed at a single group of people in place at the same time, couldn't be more different to a meaningless accident statistic based on an entire population.

You have to ask yourself; what is the motivation behind trying to normalize this?

I’m not ‘normalising’ anything. I don’t condone any terrorist act, be it by Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, far right, far left...whatever. Murder, GBH, assault etc are all despicable crimes and should be dealt with to the full extent of the law, imo regardless of ‘motivation’.

What I do refuse to do though is bow down to the exaggeration and outright deceit dished up over my vegemite on toast each morning by the Andrew Bolts and Miranda Devines of this world pushing an agenda.

Yes, a very small number of people are capable of doing a large amount of damage. We have seen that at places like Bataclan, and we’ve also seen it at places like Las Vegas. I’m not denying that ‘terrorism’ in all its guises is a threat that needs to be dealt with appropriately.

To listen to some of the rabid contributors on here over the last decade or so however, we should have all been subjugated by the Islamist hordes by now. Armed death squads roaming the streets of Yackandandah ready to gleefully lop our heads off with rusty carving knives. Gangs of highly trained and motivated Jihadists chomping at the bit to meet their 72 virgins after they complete the daily car-bombing excursion to the Vic Markets. Be scared!!!

Well fk that. For two reasons. Firstly, I’m not letting the pricks win (and you can use your own discretion to determine which pricks I’m talking about), and secondly, statistically I’m more likely to meet an untimely end by spending an extra hour at the pub without informing swmbo (or getting hit by lightning....). So WHY should I be scared of this politically inflated boogeyman? I’m cautious if the situation requires caution, just as I am cautious flying into class G airspace or trying to negotiate the fkn stupid roundabout at the end of Flemington road.

But I’m not going to run around worrying about dying from anything other than old age (or possibly cirrhosis of the liver) just because some right wing ‘commentator’ tries to convince me that I’m in mortal danger so he can add another digit to his ratings column and finish the 25 square extension to the house in Double Bay. I’m not going to start judging individuals based on the same style of racial profiling championed by Heydrich. And unless I decide to start a new career as a drug dealer, I’m certainly not going to sink to the level of some neutered, phallically challenged pantywaist who feels the need to carry a weapon just to survive a day tackling the mean streets of Melbourne....

So by all means, swallow the hype. Each to their own. And feel free to brand me with all the adjectives and expletives you can think of, because to be honest I’ll be taking about as much notice of you as I do to Andrew Bolt or Miranda Devine.

At ease
25th Dec 2017, 14:33
owen, I don't despise the military or police. I'm not sure who else you're meaning. Is an invasion imminent?

It already started long ago.

A complete army division consists of 17,000 soldiers +/- depending on the type of division.

According to the latest available figures, net immigration was more than 245,000 last year.

‘It will destroy Australia as we know it’: Dick Smith’s warning as population surges towards 25 million

IMMIGRATION to Australia shot up by more than 245,000 extra people last year. Some say it will come with disastrous consequences.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/it-will-destroy-australia-as-we-know-it-dick-smiths-warning-as-population-surges-towards-25-million/news-story/feb3ccbc6257ac21314e703ce0828b5b

That is more than 14 fully equipped divisions each year.

My father survived his service to this country in WW2 but died a premature death at 57 years old due to conditions acquired due to his war service - as legitimately accepted by the Australian Department of Veterans Affairs.

All of my family has suffered greatly over the years because of the price that he paid.

He, and his fellow servicemen, did not enlist to see our country invaded.

On the contrary.

And yet their sacrifice is made a mockery of by those politicians and self-interest groups seeking to remake Australia in their own image.

They are traitors, and should face the penalty forthcoming to any person found guilty of not defending the interests of their country.

Yes, that includes the death penalty.

It is a shame such penalties are no longer en vogue.

Many of my father's generation would be absolutely disgusted at the way this country has changed.

Why did they bother?

Hempy
25th Dec 2017, 14:57
It already started long ago.

A complete army division consists of 17,000 soldiers +/- depending on the type of division.

According to the latest available figures, net immigration was more than 245,000 last year.




Australian population 2017: Immigration pushes us towards 25m (http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/it-will-destroy-australia-as-we-know-it-dick-smiths-warning-as-population-surges-towards-25-million/news-story/feb3ccbc6257ac21314e703ce0828b5b)

That is more than 14 fully equipped divisions each year.

My father survived his service to this country in WW2 but died a premature death at 57 years old due to conditions acquired due to his war service - as legitimately accepted by the Australian Department of Veterans Affairs.

All of my family has suffered greatly over the years because of the price that he paid.

He, and his fellow servicemen, did not enlist to see our country invaded.

On the contrary.

And yet their sacrifice is made a mockery of by those politicians and self-interest groups seeking to remake Australia in their own image.

They are traitors, and should face the penalty forthcoming to any person found guilty of not defending the interests of their country.

Yes, that includes the death penalty.

It is a shame such penalties are no longer en vogue.

How did you feel about the ‘invasion’ of Australia by the the Chinese, the Greeks, the Italians, the Serbs, the Croats, the Maltese, the Viets?

At ease
25th Dec 2017, 15:05
How did you feel about the ‘invasion’ of Australia by the the Chinese, the Greeks, the Italians, the Serbs, the Croats, the Maltese, the Viets?

On the whole, these people fit in quite well and are not attacking our previous way of life.

Some other examples, however, are quite disruptive and resentful of our way of life, and seek to change it.

What I will never understand though, is the desire by the ALP(and closet leftists - even those in Government), for example, to call for greater and greater intakes that hold down real wages.

(And no, I don't vote for the Liberal Party)

(get)Up The Worker!

Screw those who sacrificed for their country.

Pay only lip service to their dependents.

WingNut60
25th Dec 2017, 17:31
It already started long ago.

A complete army division consists of 17,000 soldiers +/- depending on the type of division.

According to the latest available figures, net immigration was more than 245,000 last year.


Not being pedantic, your source and definitions may be different from those that I am using but:

Executive summary
The total permanent migration programme outcome for 2015–16 was 189,770 places within the planning level of 190,000.
The major source countries in the migration programme
were India (21.2 per cent), China (15.3 per cent) and the United Kingdom (10.0 per cent)
.
Within the managed migration
programme the breakdown was:

128,550 places were
delivered in the Skill stream;

57,400 places were delivered in the Family stream; and

308 places were delivered in the Special Eligibility stream.

I emphasised the "permanent" qualification above.

In the same period, temporary migrants included:
Overseas students :310,845
Business long stay (457) 85,611

oicur12.again
25th Dec 2017, 19:25
Owen,

Yes, most road rules in Australia come from these countries. They have similar road accident statistics as Australia and so its reasonably appropriate to apply their learning to Australian transport policy.

We do not, however, fear driving on Victorian roads as a result of the carnage on Chinese roads in the same way that the incidence of terrorism in Australia is very different to that of the UK or America or Iraq and we should formulate policy accordingly.

Kelly Hopper et al are asking us to fear terrorism in Australia because of (largely false) data from Sweden or the UK or a dubious list dragged from the internet that includes ALL cases of Islamist terrorism worldwide, a lot of which can easily be disputed with little effort.

I always find these debates about terrorism troubling for several reasons. People such as Kelly Hopper spend most of their energy regurgitating simplistic sound bites without applying some critical analysis: why does terrorism occur?

Terrorism does not occur in in a vacum, there is always a motivating force. What is that force. Why do Australians fear terrorism but New Zealanders dont?

And more importantly, what is terrorism? Its obvious that killing innocent kids at a rock concert ticks the box, but what about an LGB killing 84 civillian women and children in a market place in Syria, an event that occured shortly before the concert bombing in the UK.

Make no mistake, its terribly convenient for the Government in Canberra or Washington or London to have you reasonbly scared about terrorism but generally passive when it comes to asking the important questions.

owen meaney
25th Dec 2017, 19:43
Make no mistake, its terribly convenient for the Government in Canberra or Washington or London to have you reasonably scared about terrorism but generally passive when it comes to asking the important questions. That is indeed true, oicur12, not only the questions but to keep the population looking over "there" while something else happens over "here".

At ease
26th Dec 2017, 00:28
Not being pedantic, your source and definitions may be different from those that I am using but:



Possibly, your sources(which are unnamed) may be out of date or also possibly, incorrect.

You might be the victim of "rubbery figures".

I will now quote more material from the same article that I did a few posts ago(#137):



[.....]
ENTREPRENEUR Dick Smith says it is “not accidental” that immigration skyrocketed by 27 per cent last year, accusing Australian politicians of cooking the books to keep economic growth figures artificially high.
The latest figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics show net overseas migration (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Latestproducts/3101.0Media%20Release1Jun%202017?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=3101.0&issue=Jun%202017&num=&view=) for the year ending 30 June 2017 was 245,000, with New South Wales and Victoria recording their highest ever levels.
[.....]

Please note the name of the person being quoted.

Earlier, I neglected to thank him for his public stand on this scandalous issue, but I am happy to do so now.

Thanks Dick.

Please keep shining the light on the disgraceful cockroaches.

P.S. Our family held it's Christmas gathering on Christmas eve due to my sister in law's work commitments.

I have lived away from Sydney for more than 5 years, but this year traveled north to pick up my 93 year old mum to transport her to my brothers house.

Even on a weekend, Sydney is bursting at the seams with traffic and partially completed band-aid roadworks and toll roads formerly free of this urban blight.

More and more people are being relentlessly squeezed into a finite area.

More and more hi rise home units are being built where free standing houses used to be.

Where do the children play safely?

Pets?

Garage/driveway space to work on the car and household appliances?

I spent most of my life in Sydney which, when I was much younger, used to be a fantastic place to live.

We used to have things like Amaroo Park, Oran Park(both gone) and a thriving Bankstown Airport(going).

It is now approaching whatever the opposite of fantastic is.

As Dick Smith pointed out in the article I quoted, we need economic growth based on productivity improvements, not population growth.

WingNut60
26th Dec 2017, 01:29
Possibly, your sources(which are unnamed) may be out of date or also possibly, incorrect.
You might be the victim of "rubbery figures".............

I am not the victim of "rubbery figures"; I quoted the 2015–16 Migration Programme Report from DFAT (now Home Affairs, since Malcolm got gun-shy having Peter Dutton breathing down his neck).
Since I did not have 2016-17 numbers available yesterday, I will provide them now.


Executive summary
The total permanent migration programme outcome for 2016–17 was 183,608 places within the planning level of 190,000.

The major source countries in the migration programme were India (21.2 per cent), China (15.4 per cent) and the United Kingdom (9.3 per cent).

Within the managed migration programme the breakdown was:
· 123,567 places were delivered in the Skill stream;
· 56,220 places were delivered in the Family stream; and
· 421 places were delivered in the Special Eligibility stream.

From 2015–16 the Child programme has sat outside the managed migration Programme, but remains within the overall ceiling of permanent migration places.
The outcome of Child visas for the year was 3400 places.

Refer : https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/report-on-migration-program-2016-17.pdf (https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/ReportsandPublications/Documents/statistics/report-on-migration-program-2016-17.pdf)

I don't know why you are taking an adversarial approach to my comments. I have not yet stated, and you do not know my thoughts on Australian immigration.

But I do know that interpreting your point of view is difficult because you haven't really explained what it is that you are opposed to. Is it the overall migration levels or any one or more migrant categories.
Edited / Added :- OK. Now I get your gist.

It is obvious that the bulk of the numbers overall is made up by the skilled migrant programme and overseas students (420,000 + combined).

Refugee / asylum seekers for 2015-16 (latest figures) was 17,555 and that will probably drop next year with the 12,000 additional allocations for Syria / Iraq.
That is, there were approx. 5,500 refugee visas granted other than for Syria / Iraq, and that programme has now ended.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about/corporate/information/fact-sheets/60refugee

WingNut60
26th Dec 2017, 02:08
This conversation seems to be going off-piste.
Better if someone were to open a separate thread.

But in the meantime.....

Please note the name of the person being quoted.



Some might not see the credentials of the person quoted as being relevant to population growth.

But following your line of argument, take a look at the paper quoted below.


Australia’s future population - Dr Luke Buckmaster - How ‘big’ is Australia’s population likely to become by 2050? - Current policy

Australia does not have a formal population policy that commits the country to a particular population target. https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook43p/futurepopulation

dr dre
26th Dec 2017, 02:38
It already started long ago.

A complete army division consists of 17,000 soldiers +/- depending on the type of division.

According to the latest available figures, net immigration was more than 245,000 last year.

Australian population 2017: Immigration pushes us towards 25m (http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/it-will-destroy-australia-as-we-know-it-dick-smiths-warning-as-population-surges-towards-25-million/news-story/feb3ccbc6257ac21314e703ce0828b5b)

That is more than 14 fully equipped divisions each year.

Those migrants are coming here legally with skills and jobs, they are a net gain for the economy rather than a drain on it.
Here's an economics professor who is also an IPA member (so no accusations of "leftie bias") explaining the truth:
Immigrants boost the economy and should be welcomed | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/news/policy/immigration/immigrants-boost-the-economy-and-should-be-welcomed-20170224-gukhgo)

They are not coming here with weapons, they are not "invading" and they do not want to change our way of life. Sure there may be a call from some insignificant imam for a change to Australian law to placate his beliefs, but they aren't taken seriously by anyone important. There's a foreign born Christian called Danny Nalliah who runs a political party that wants Australian laws changed to suit his fundamentalist Christian beliefs, why aren't we as outraged at that as well?

He, and his fellow servicemen, did not enlist to see our country invaded.

Many of my father's generation would be absolutely disgusted at the way this country has changed.

Why did they bother?

Don't use the "my father was in the military and he didn't want all these foreigners in his country" argument. I've got relatives who were in the military too, and even though that gives me no more right to comment on immigration policy than anyone who doesn't, both I (and my relatives) think your comments are nothing more than uneducated and xenophobic.

WingNut60
26th Dec 2017, 03:00
Those migrants are coming here legally with skills and jobs, they are a net gain for the economy rather than a drain on it.


This argument is firmly rooted in the concept that what is good for business is good for society and "trickle down" means it'll be good for all sectors of society. And that is flawed.


Here's an economics professor who is also an IPA member (so no accusations of "leftie bias") explaining the truth:
Probably not, after all, it's the "righties" who are pushing the bulk of the immigration programme (See above). Nothing helps business like a never-ending supply of cheap labour.


........explaining the truth:


Well, his version of the truth.

nomorecatering
26th Dec 2017, 03:50
TRUCKS, bollards protect Boxing Day shoppers in Pitt St | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5212067/TRUCKS-bollards-protect-Boxing-Day-shoppers-Pitt-St.html?ito=social-facebook)

Security Sydney style.

owen meaney
26th Dec 2017, 05:17
TRUCKS, bollards protect Boxing Day shoppers in Pitt St | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5212067/TRUCKS-bollards-protect-Boxing-Day-shoppers-Pitt-St.html?ito=social-facebook)

Security Sydney style.They should have listened to Hempy and his cohort, the police are being scared by the Sun Herald.

Hempy
26th Dec 2017, 06:25
They should have listened to Hempy and his cohort, the police are being scared by the Sun Herald.

No, they are just providing the sheeple with the perception that the money and effort spent is actually making them safer. “You can go about your shopping feeling less scared today, dear readers. Look at all the highly visible measures we are taking to calm your anxiety.”

And it must have been a wonderful deterrent! It’s 5pm and, once again, there were no terrorist attacks in Australia today!! :ok:

owen meaney
26th Dec 2017, 08:58
) think your comments are nothing more than uneducated and xenophobic. You conflate zenonfobia with Nationalism mate, and whilst Nationalism is probably a concept that you and your family wouldn't support, many others do.

You seem to believe, along with Hempy, that open borders to all the filth in the world is good for Australia, I for one do not subscribe to this supercilious idea.

Hempy, perhaps you and your other servos should go along to the police and tell them just what knobs they are.

Hempy
26th Dec 2017, 09:39
You conflate zenonfobia with Nationalism mate, and whilst Nationalism is probably a concept that you and your family wouldn't support, many others do.

You seem to believe, along with Hempy, that open borders to all the filth in the world is good for Australia, I for one do not subscribe to this supercilious idea.

Hempy, perhaps you and your other servos should go along to the police and tell them just what knobs they are.

Actually I’m just about to head out to the Ulladulla Ex-Servos Club as we speak. I could take a survey, but I’d reckon the consensus would be that you’re actually the knob, not the coppers who are just doing what they’re told :ok:

G-CPTN
26th Dec 2017, 14:18
TRUCKS, bollards protect Boxing Day shoppers in Pitt St | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5212067/TRUCKS-bollards-protect-Boxing-Day-shoppers-Pitt-St.html?ito=social-facebook)

Security Sydney style.

That's all very well, but how would they manage a major fire or a serious medical incident?
Access for emergency service vehicles?

WingNut60
26th Dec 2017, 15:04
That's all very well, but how would they manage a major fire or a serious medical incident?
Access for emergency service vehicles?

Move the trucks ?

G-CPTN
26th Dec 2017, 15:21
The drivers are on standby 24/7?

WingNut60
26th Dec 2017, 23:11
The drivers are on standby 24/7?

Not entirely sure but then, are the trucks actually there 24/7?
If I owned them, I'd have someone there to move them if necessary.
You'd just need to move them enough to provide access.

Minor cost compared to cost of rental.
Few governments / councils would have units like that at there disposal to use as crash barriers.

TWT
26th Dec 2017, 23:30
The trucks were there for just one day to protect the massive crowds attending the Boxing Day sales. A temporary security measure.

Concrete bollards were delivered on these trucks so they just had the drivers park them to block vehicular access. The drivers were on hand to move them if required for emergency services.

Semi-trailers block traffic at Pitt Street as crowds flock for sales (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/semitrailers-block-traffic-at-pitt-street-as-crowds-flock-for-sales-20171226-h0a93v.html)

Lonewolf_50
27th Dec 2017, 02:06
I always find these debates about terrorism troubling for several reasons. People such as Kelly Hopper spend most of their energy regurgitating simplistic sound bites without applying some critical analysis: why does terrorism occur?
Make no mistake, its terribly convenient for the Government in Canberra or Washington or London to have you reasonbly scared about terrorism but generally passive when it comes to asking the important questions.
Yet another form of a curious phenomenon among the conspiracy theorist's world view: the apologia for terrorist attacks because the government made them do it.

oicur12.again
27th Dec 2017, 15:20
"Because the Government made them do it"

Not sure how you managed to arrive at that conclusion based upon my comments, care to expand a little?

WingNut60
30th Dec 2017, 02:16
Now being reported :


‘Hero’ grandfather Antonios ‘Anton’ Crocaris dies in hospital following alleged Flinders St attack.

He passed away tragically aged 83 yesterday evening at the Alfred hospital, nine days after sustaining injuries from a SUV which ploughed through pedestrians in the heart of Melbourne’s CBD.

I know why, but the semantics about an "alleged attack" still gets up my nose.

flash8
30th Dec 2017, 02:40
I know why, but the semantics about an "alleged attack" still gets up my nose.

They wouldn't even have reported it if they thought they'd get away with it.

SnowFella
30th Dec 2017, 10:43
Legal requirement for the press I'd think, until convicted in a court of law they have to report it as "alleged" or risk a lawsuit if for some reason the accused comes out as innocent in the courts.

At ease
2nd Jan 2018, 05:39
It's about time Victorian authorities had the backbone to admit to a problem that everyone knew existed.

Unfortunately, taking effective action about this is another matter entirely.

As I said earlier in this thread, my father and his generation who gave or had their lives shortened by defending the country as it used to be would be disgusted as to how it has been allowed to deteriorate.

[.....]
Victorian police have conceded Melbourne has a problem with African street gangs, after earlier insisting there were no gangs in the city, as the State Government rejects criticism it has dropped the ball on the problem.Police Minister Lisa Neville today defended the Government's handling of youth crime after the Federal Government yesterday said "African gang crime" was out of control in Melbourne because of lenient state policies.
The issue has become a priority for both major parties after a series of recent headline-grabbing crimes blamed on groups of young African men, including the trashing of an Airbnb property in Werribee (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-20/werribee-airbnb-party-police-pelted-with-rocks/9275064), vandalism in Tarneit and a night of violence at St Kilda Beach involving dozens of youths.
[.....]

African gangs in Melbourne are a problem, police admit, as Victorian Government defends strategy - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-02/street-gangs-are-a-problem-in-melbourne-police-admit/9297984)

Captain Dart
2nd Jan 2018, 06:32
More like lenient Federal immigration policies. Why on earth are we letting these people in?