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Dan_Brown
18th Dec 2017, 09:47
Nasty smash in the underpass in Birmingham, allegedly caused by a Souped up Audi. This car was capable of 155 mph.

The accident aside, can anyone, for the life of me explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??

Frankly I for one am getting very p****d off at the amount of noisy motors driven by absolute morons. The police don't seem to be doing too much about it.

4mastacker
18th Dec 2017, 09:50
What police??

ATNotts
18th Dec 2017, 10:08
Nasty smash in the underpass in Birmingham, allegedly caused by a Souped up Audi. This car was capable of 155 mph.

The accident aside, can anyone, for the life of me explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??

Frankly I for one am getting very p****d off at the amount of noisy motors driven by absolute morons. The police don't seem to be doing too much about it.

It's probably too early to apportion blame, but the pictures I saw on the TV this morning reminded me so much of the scene after the Princess of Wales' accident in Paris. Probably if there was ever a case for average speed cameras is it through underpasses and concrete sided cuttings where if anything does go wrong, or prats are driving stupidly the innocent party(ies) just have nowhere to go.

As for the cretins who seem to need high powered cars to somehow enhance their, probably wanting, masculinity I agree it is really about time the law and those that enforce it got a grip and took them off the roads. If I wake in the early hours I can normally hear them racing up and down the A52 which runs within a few hundred metres of my house. If I can hear them, the many others can too, and at that time of night the police, if they were mined to could get off their backsides and start enforcing laws, not just on speed, but on illegally modified vehicles, which as a result of said mods. are probably running around inadequately / uninsured.

Of course, so far as Notts. police are concerned, enforcement of traffic laws largely surrounds collecting revenue from speed cameras, aside of which they're rarely seen.

Animal Mother
18th Dec 2017, 10:27
If I can hear them, the many others can too, and at that time of night the police, if they were mined to could get off their backsides and start enforcing laws, not just on speed, but on illegally modified vehicles, which as a result of said mods. are probably running around inadequately / uninsured.

Of course, so far as Notts. police are concerned, enforcement of traffic laws largely surrounds collecting revenue from speed cameras, aside of which they're rarely seen.

So you'd rather see the Police tackle noise rather than speed? Speed kills, does noise do anything more than annoy?

Animal Mother
18th Dec 2017, 10:30
Nasty smash in the underpass in Birmingham, allegedly caused by a Souped up Audi. This car was capable of 155 mph.

The accident aside, can anyone, for the life of me explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??

Frankly I for one am getting very p****d off at the amount of noisy motors driven by absolute morons. The police don't seem to be doing too much about it.

Not really a choice by the Police, more a necessity as a result of years of cuts. Sadly, prioritisation of incidents is the reality and the future.

#cutshaveconsequences

Perhaps it's not for the Police, but for the MOT testing stations/DVLA/VOSA to start doing their jobs properly.

clareprop
18th Dec 2017, 10:44
This car was capable of 155 mph.

The accident aside, can anyone, for the life of me explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??

You'll find many cars sold today (diesel, petrol & Hybrid) are capable of such speed without being 'souped-up'. In fact, under a manufacturers agreement, the majority of premium vehicles such as Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW etc are actually restricted so they do not exceed 155mph.

ATNotts
18th Dec 2017, 10:48
So you'd rather see the Police tackle noise rather than speed? Speed kills, does noise do anything more than annoy?

The speed and the noise usually, but not always go hand in hand. You completely miss the point of what I said.

You can hear the idiots speeding, because of their souped up vehicles and deliberately enhanced exhaust racket. And we're not talking about "speeding" - that's what the cameras catch, and often it's not deliberate speeding, but momentary lapses that earn easy money.

If the OP's analysis is correct, this time someone's high powered vehicle, perhaps stolen, perhaps not, we just don't know at the moment has killed 6 people. A bit more, preferably covert activity at night by the police could help get the message across that stupid speeding / racing simply isn't on on public roads.

419
18th Dec 2017, 10:50
So you'd rather see the Police tackle noise rather than speed? Speed kills, does noise do anything more than annoy?

How do you get that idea from the comment that ATNotts posted?
Yes, they mentioned noise but in the same paragraph the possible lack of insurance was also mentioned.

4mastacker
18th Dec 2017, 10:51
So you'd rather see the Police tackle noise rather than speed? Speed kills, does noise do anything more than annoy?

Some chavs will 'undo' the mods so the car passes its MOT then restore them once the car has passed the test.

The noise merely attracts attention to the vehicle - don't forget, it's illegal to have a faulty exhaust. It just needs the police to stop the vehicle for being noisy; do a deep down inspection of tyres, suspension, lights, exhaust, insurance, brakes, etc. Start taking a few of these piss-takers off the road, crush the car and the message will soon get round.

787-1
18th Dec 2017, 10:54
Nasty smash in the underpass in Birmingham, allegedly caused by a Souped up Audi. This car was capable of 155 mph.

The accident aside, can anyone, for the life of me explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??

Frankly I for one am getting very p****d off at the amount of noisy motors driven by absolute morons. The police don't seem to be doing too much about it.

Why are you blaming the Audi driver ? Looks like a standard S4 to me - hardly souped up! Most modern cars are capable of 155mph. Why not blame the Seat next to it ?

Metro man
18th Dec 2017, 11:12
Back in the 1970s that sort of performance was restricted to exotic supercars, well outside the budget of a tear away. Theses days itís available for a few thousand pounds on the second hand market.

Unfortunately driving ability and judgment havenít increased at the same rate.

ATNotts
18th Dec 2017, 11:17
Some chavs will 'undo' the mods so the car passes its MOT then restore them once the car has passed the test.

The noise merely attracts attention to the vehicle - don't forget, it's illegal to have a faulty exhaust. It just needs the police to stop the vehicle for being noisy; do a deep down inspection of tyres, suspension, lights, exhaust, insurance, brakes, etc. Start taking a few of these piss-takers off the road, crush the car and the message will soon get round.

That would be my strategy. We appear to have reached a situation where enforcement is far too focused on the easy things - speeding, and of course the "Christmas drink drive campaign" - do they honestly believe that people only drink and drive at Christmas??? Tackling the other more difficult and manpower consuming stuff like mobile phone use and rank stupidity / recklessness has to move further up the list of priorities, especially if, as has been quite above, that cars are now made to do up to 155mph, which is ridiculous for a road car, even on a deserted motorway / autobahn.

The police will of course complain about funding, and of course with them seemingly becoming a social service for some people, and free taxi home after a night on the pi$$ on for others I suppose that's hardly surprising.

Sallyann1234
18th Dec 2017, 11:19
It's probably too early to apportion blame, but the pictures I saw on the TV this morning reminded me so much of the scene after the Princess of Wales' accident in Paris. Probably if there was ever a case for average speed cameras is it through underpasses and concrete sided cuttings where if anything does go wrong, or prats are driving stupidly the innocent party(ies) just have nowhere to go.

As for the cretins who seem to need high powered cars to somehow enhance their, probably wanting, masculinity I agree it is really about time the law and those that enforce it got a grip and took them off the roads. If I wake in the early hours I can normally hear them racing up and down the A52 which runs within a few hundred metres of my house. If I can hear them, the many others can too, and at that time of night the police, if they were mined to could get off their backsides and start enforcing laws, not just on speed, but on illegally modified vehicles, which as a result of said mods. are probably running around inadequately / uninsured.

Of course, so far as Notts. police are concerned, enforcement of traffic laws largely surrounds collecting revenue from speed cameras, aside of which they're rarely seen.
Police don't collect the money from speed cameras. It's a cheap, if inefficent, way of enforcing speed limits that doesn't need boots on the ground or in cars.

As to the case in question, I do not understand why there is no central barrier to prevent vehicles crossing over. The cost of it would have been far less than the excess damage in this case. I'll bet that Armco will be installed there now.

ExXB
18th Dec 2017, 11:40
Hey! Why not mandate speed regulators in cars. With modern technology we can limit speeds to the posted legal maximums.

Awaiting howls of indignation from those that only want to restrict others and not themselves. Don’t care about the laws, only their ‘judgement’ of what is safe and what isn’t.

So why don’t we have noise cameras? Again technology should allow this revenue generating tool. Is there a law that sets out a legal maximum noise?

Dan_Brown
18th Dec 2017, 12:03
So you'd rather see the Police tackle noise rather than speed? Speed kills, does noise do anything more than annoy?

Well in case you weren't aware the noisy cars are normally associated with aggressive and speeding driving.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Dec 2017, 12:07
does noise do anything more than annoy?
Yes. It can make people ill, and if they can't sleep enough to be able to work the next day it can cost them their jobs.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Dec 2017, 12:08
So why donít we have noise cameras?
Your council's environmental heath people should have the necessary gear which I expect they will deploy if you can persuade them that your problem comes high enough up the priority list.

ATNotts
18th Dec 2017, 12:15
Police don't collect the money from speed cameras. It's a cheap, if inefficent, way of enforcing speed limits that doesn't need boots on the ground or in cars.

As to the case in question, I do not understand why there is no central barrier to prevent vehicles crossing over. The cost of it would have been far less than the excess damage in this case. I'll bet that Armco will be installed there now.

I know the revenue doesn't go into a Police's account directly, however if I recall correctly the party line is that the money earned from speed cameras and other moving fixed penalty fines goes towards "road safety" which by implication will include amongst other things, more resources for more speed checking measures.

So far as the road concerned in this incident is concerned, there's hardly room to install barriers, when it was built they were never considered necessary, even though road deaths were many times higher than they are today.

4mastacker
18th Dec 2017, 13:05
Looking at the photographs of that particular road, the central reservation is about 4 feet wide, so enough room for barriers.

See the third photo down in the link.

Birmingham crash: Victim Imtiaz Mohammed 'was on last job' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-42387110)

747 jock
18th Dec 2017, 13:26
Police don't collect the money from speed cameras. It's a cheap, if inefficent, way of enforcing speed limits that doesn't need boots on the ground or in cars.
They don't receive money directly but they do get £45 from each person that opts to go on a speed awareness course.
With somewhere in the region of one and a quarter million people on these courses each year, that's well over £55 million the police will get.

RedhillPhil
18th Dec 2017, 14:09
Nasty smash in the underpass in Birmingham, allegedly caused by a Souped up Audi. This car was capable of 155 mph.

The accident aside, can anyone, for the life of me explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??

Frankly I for one am getting very p****d off at the amount of noisy motors driven by absolute morons. The police don't seem to be doing too much about it.



"The accident aside...."


"My willy is bigger than your willy" just about sums it up.

chuks
18th Dec 2017, 14:20
We have a perfectly ordinary 3-series BMW estate car, a 330xD touring, with AWD and an automatic transmission (not even one of these 7-speed double-clutch thingies but one with a plain old torque converter and only six speeds).

This family car will do about 145 mph, and it takes a little over six seconds to reach 62 mph. With numbers such as those from a family car, one not marketed as a high-performance car as such even though it has 245 horsepower, it's easy to see that if you want to drive it like a loon then you can get yourself into just as much trouble as with an Audi S4; you might crash 20 or 30 mph slower, but that's still going to make one hell of a mess!

(In fact, one unintended consequence of AWD is that when you do lose control going too fast for conditions then you still shall merge with the scenery, but going that much faster than you would have done in a less-capable car.)

It might be worth thinking about requiring extra training for people who want to drive cars that have superior performance, and for people who need to drive cars with inferior performance too! Anything that can do better than 0-62 in ten seconds or less, or in 15 seconds or more; anything that can top 110 mph or not reach 80 mph ... why not require drivers of such vehicles to have some sort of special endorsement?

I do regular safety training with the ADAC (a German automobile club). They have training grounds where, for not all that much money, you can practice avoidance, emergency braking, skid control (on a big, wet, steel plate), and a few other useful things, plus get a classroom presentation on braking distance relative to speed and a few other things most of us tend to forget about.

If you can spend money on a fast car, or save money driving an absolute crap-box, then you should be able to afford about a hundred quid once a year for safety training.

From experience I would advise that just because someone drives a supercar or superbike does not mean that they must drive like a loon. I see plenty of bad driving from young people in tarted-up little crap-boxes that could not pull the skin off a custard, and from folks my age who simply do not bother to pay attention, no matter what they are driving. Rather than some sort of unfocused crack-down on young guys in hot cars, obviously driven to some extent by anger and resentment, how about a focused drive for recurrent training, taking the drivers of higher-performance cars for just one more obvious risk group?

Lonewolf_50
18th Dec 2017, 14:25
Unfortunately driving ability and judgment havenít increased at the same rate. That' sums it up.

sitigeltfel
18th Dec 2017, 16:31
There are another "Six" to think of here. The six children of the taxi driver whose dad won't be coming home.

radeng
18th Dec 2017, 17:01
Sort of related on speed - parts of Bath have had more people killed or injured in some areas where speed limits have been reduced to 20 mph, rather than less. The council say they can't afford to change the limits back to 30mph...

Bath and North East Somerset Council 'can't afford' to get rid of 20mph zones despite rise in death and serious injury rate - Bath Chronicle (http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/bath-news/bath-north-east-somerset-council-927379)

Krystal n chips
18th Dec 2017, 17:56
Police don't collect the money from speed cameras. It's a cheap, if inefficent, way of enforcing speed limits that doesn't need boots on the ground or in cars.

As to the case in question, I do not understand why there is no central barrier to prevent vehicles crossing over. The cost of it would have been far less than the excess damage in this case. I'll bet that Armco will be installed there now.

Now that's a very good question regarding the central barrier or rather the lack of because ever since it was constructed, this useful item has been conspicuously absent and ( I presume you've never been unfortunate enough, thankfully, to use the road ) when you drive down it, the lack is more than a shade unnerving because whilst there are speed limits, it's classed as the A38(M) and......bingo! that's all some people need to see.

Tankertrashnav
18th Dec 2017, 19:32
I see that two of the dead were thrown from the car they were travelling in. I suppose it is possible that both were strapped in and their seat belts failed, but it is far more likely that they weren't wearing them. I really cannot understand why anyone would drive a car without wearing a seatbelt, but it is clear many do. Is it a macho thing, or just laziness?

G-CPTN
18th Dec 2017, 19:41
Drivers of taxis and some taxi passengers do not choose to wear seatbelts, however there is no excuse for the young men in the other car.
Whether they would have survived if they had been wearing belts ?

Planet Basher
18th Dec 2017, 20:38
I commute on this road twice a day, 5 days a week. My trip takes me past the police training college as well. I am lucky to see a police car on average once a month.

Cars don't kill people, dick heads kill people. Cut the speed of the cars to what? The speed limit on that road is 40 mph, combined 80 mph without breaking any limits.

Sallyann1234
18th Dec 2017, 20:56
So far as the road concerned in this incident is concerned, there's hardly room to install barriers, when it was built they were never considered necessary, even though road deaths were many times higher than they are today.
I disagree. It doesn't take much width to install double-sided Armco, and there is the increasingly popular barrier comprising tensioned steel wires between posts, that is effectively double-sided and even narrower. I'm sure either could be installed there, and I'll bet money that it will be now.

Sallyann1234
18th Dec 2017, 20:59
Now that's a very good question regarding the central barrier or rather the lack of because ever since it was constructed, this useful item has been conspicuously absent and ( I presume you've never been unfortunate enough, thankfully, to use the road ) when you drive down it, the lack is more than a shade unnerving because whilst there are speed limits, it's classed as the A38(M) and......bingo! that's all some people need to see.
Yes I have used the road from time to time, the last time according to my diary was in April this year. But it's always been in busy times when traffic has been heavy and speeds much slower.

Gertrude the Wombat
18th Dec 2017, 21:35
Sort of related on speed - parts of Bath have had more people killed or injured in some areas where speed limits have been reduced to 20 mph, rather than less. The council say they can't afford to change the limits back to 30mph...

Bath and North East Somerset Council 'can't afford' to get rid of 20mph zones despite rise in death and serious injury rate - Bath Chronicle (http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/bath-news/bath-north-east-somerset-council-927379)
All the analyses of this report that I've seen conclude that it's bollocks.

mrangryofwarlingham
18th Dec 2017, 22:08
Audi was capable of 155mph
The taxi was also capable of 120mph

Noise does not equate to speed
Some very fast cars can do double the speed of a souped up mini with an illegal exhaust whilst making half the noise

I had an Yamaha F1SE when I was 16. Bloody thing might do 45 or 50 with a big bore kit.....taking the baffles out made no difference to performance except annoying the victor meldrews out there

My missus has a bmw 3.28. It can do 146 according to road tests.

So the Audi may have been speeding
That it could have done 155 ....... this was the cause of the accident how?
That the Audi was on the wrong side of the road (according to a question put to the police at the press conference) might have had something to do with the accident regardless of the speed it was going at ?
Regardless of the noise it was making?

Was it stolen?
Was the driver under the influence?
We donít know

But I would be very surprised to learn that the potential top speed of the vehicle caused the accident

Yes it may have been speeding

Inappropriate speed kills. Especially going the wrong way into oncoming traffic.
The police btw said they did not know whether the car ended up on the other carriageway after the accident....

Speed limit all cars to the national limit?
So long as the car can be adjusted to suit the country it is being driven in.
As for those who say they never break speed limits, I donít believe them.

mrangryofwarlingham
18th Dec 2017, 22:14
Out of curiosity

Why title the thread Birmingham 6?
I recall the 6 ďIRA bombersĒ wrongly jailed and eventually freed
Is the naming of this thread deliberately insensitive?

G-CPTN
18th Dec 2017, 22:14
Audi was capable of 155mph
The taxi was also capable of 120mph
So the Audi may have been speeding
That it could have done 155 ....... this was the cause of the accident how?
That the Audi was on the wrong side of the road (according to a question put to the police at the press conference) might have had something to do with the accident regardless of the speed it was going at ?
Regardless of the noise it was making?

Was it stolen?
Was the driver under the influence?
We don’t know

But I would be very surprised to learn that the potential top speed of the vehicle caused the accident

Yes it may have been speeding

Inappropriate speed kills. Especially going the wrong way into oncoming traffic.
The police btw said they did not know whether the car ended up on the other carriageway after the accident....


Apparently the Audi was driven by a known drug dealer who had recently been released from prison after a police chase at 120/130mph.

Witnesses claim it approached at high speed and lost control, crossing to the opposite carriageway and collided head-on with the taxi.

mrangryofwarlingham
18th Dec 2017, 22:15
Why quote all of my post to say 2 sentences ?

mrangryofwarlingham
18th Dec 2017, 22:18
What is high speed in a 40mph limit?
60mph?

Is the theoretical top speed relevant?

G-CPTN
18th Dec 2017, 22:26
Why quote all of my post to say 2 sentences ?

I quoted relevant parts of your post to define what my post was referring to - rather than a reply to another contributor's post.

I could have written more than two sentences or added a link to the source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5190963/Road-six-died-crash-known-racing-cars.html) - which is more damning than my quote - but contains subjective statements.

topradio
18th Dec 2017, 22:49
I don't want to sidetrack this thread but according to that news article the low life drug dealer who was in the Audi had been jailed for 3 years in November 2016 but he's out on the street just over a year later!


The system is FUBAR. I would gladly pay significantly more tax specifically for the building of new jails. Proper jails where people are deprived of not just their liberty but all creature comforts. Jails where the authorities don't conspire to allow drugs and contraband inside in order to 'keep the peace'


Not going to happen though.

mrangryofwarlingham
18th Dec 2017, 23:17
Top radio

You point is a good one
And does not sidetrack the thread but focuses it

It isn’t cars like S3s that are the problem.
It is dangerous drivers.

Innocent people have died as a result of this incident.
Children have lost fathers..

Yet somehow this awful incident is the trigger for a bunch of mostly grumpy old men to moan about the noise from illegal exhausts from souped up minis driven by young scroats.

Seriously. I do not understand the mind of someone who takes such an awful incident as this as the starting point to moan about how really pissed off he is about the number of noisy motors driven by morons....

Jeeez.

Pappa Smurf
19th Dec 2017, 00:08
No Nigel Smith of Derrik Jones involved.

Crepello
19th Dec 2017, 00:39
Indeed a tragic accident - but as to the OP's question:

"Can anyone... explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??"

Simple - because they're a lot of fun! There are many drivers of high performance vehicles that drive safely on public highways, but enjoy "letting rip" at racetracks. If you're going to propose banning everything that may be abused by a minority, I'd respectfully suggest that you're starting on a slippery slope.

Let's not assume bad wrecks are the preserve of Audis and similar - I've seen several fatalities involving vehicles like my own pickup, electronically limited to 95mph per the tire rating. (And much as I love my truck, it has the aerodynamics of a concrete block - at 95mph, it handles like a shed.) Typically, those fatalities happen at lower speeds, often due to a driver running a red light. Technology exists to automatically apply the brakes to any vehicle approaching a red. Is that really what we want our governments to mandate?

chuks
19th Dec 2017, 07:11
Why have a car with superior performance? Fun comes into it, but here in Germany, where many of those cars are built, it's not unusual to drive at 100+ mph.

It takes getting used to, doing 120 mph to be passed by someone doing 150.

Unfortunately, many Germans use a tactic of leaving the speed high to close rapidly on the car ahead, only braking very late, and then following the car ahead much too closely in order to get its driver to pull over. You can watch some jerk making his progress that way, in a series of sprints interrupted by heavy braking and tailgating. He "wins" when the guy ahead is intimidated into pulling into the slow lane sooner than he might, I guess.

I was puzzled when I took our BMW 330xd in for a service, when the technician told me that its brakes "looked like new." Yes, well, the car only had about 60 thousand km. on it then, so why not? Ah, driving like a hoon! I guess a lot of his customers come in with brakes that are totally shagged because of this German style of driving that is totally non-predictive and aggressive.

ATNotts
19th Dec 2017, 08:35
"Can anyone... explain why anyone would want, or be allowed to have a car on the road that has that much power??"

Simple - because they're a lot of fun!

I wouldn't pretend to argue against that, some people find driving cars at high speed fun - Lewis Hamilton for one, but I doubt he'd be so reckless to do it on a public road open for normal traffic.

Sure, have your high speed vehicles, and "play" with them, but do it exclusively on a race track, public roads aren't a suitable venue to test how fast your car can do 0-60mph, or to test people's (often inadequate) driving skills at high speed.

And by high speed I don't mean 10mph over the speed limit.

Regarding Autobahns, and speed, I don't live in Germany (more's the pity!) but in my experience there aren't that many head cases driving at much in excess of 150 km/h, I have experienced a few though, and generally they aren't the Mitsubishi Evolutions and Subaru Imprezas with "toy" exhausts, it's high spec. Mercs and BMWs - my former boss took great pleasure out of sharing the sh1t out of us when bringing us from NŁrnberg Airport to the office, driving stupidly fast down about 4 exits!

The message needs to get through to drivers in UK is that the only "toy cars" they should be driving are Scalextric - roads aren't a playground and their cars not toys. That message is at least as important as drink and drug driving.

Effluent Man
19th Dec 2017, 08:51
Why are you blaming the Audi driver ? Looks like a standard S4 to me - hardly souped up! Most modern cars are capable of 155mph. Why not blame the Seat next to it ?

Think it was an S3. Looking at the pictures of the occupants, one posing with gym weights, it would lead towards the thought that they might be the perps rather than the cab man. Two possibilities, either a crossover leading to a head on or a high speed rear end impact. Judging from the nature of the bend, unless ice was a factor, then the speed required for either case would have been 100 mph ish.

mrangryofwarlingham
19th Dec 2017, 10:05
Is 93mph

Plenty of UK drivers exceed 90mph on UK motorways and dual carriageways
150kph is very commonly exceeded in Germany

You donít need to be a head case to exceed 93mph

UK courts have decided that speeding does not automatically equate to dangerous driving.

mrangryofwarlingham
19th Dec 2017, 10:11
Effluent man

I think you are right. I also suspect a crossover leading to head on impact
What caused crossover we don’t know
Police pointed out that road had been gritted some hours before
I therefore also suspect inappropriate speed from the car that crossed over
Not sure where you get your figure of 100mph from?
And perhaps other factors...maybe the car was poorly maintained in a way that contributed to the accident. Poor tyre condition perhaps ?

We shall see the results of the police investigation in due course...

Effluent Man
19th Dec 2017, 10:13
Is 93mph

Plenty of UK drivers exceed 90mph on UK motorways and dual carriageways
150kph is very commonly exceeded in Germany

You donít need to be a head case to exceed 93mph

UK courts have decided that speeding does not automatically equate to dangerous driving.

I remember testing my new Merc C Kompressor on the 5 Autobahn between Basel and Strasbourg and covering 55 miles in half an hour. It was a Sunday in perfect conditions and the road was almost empty, crucially with no 90kmh trucks. Speed and safety is all about where and when. These lads chose the wrong place, wrong time.

yellowtriumph
19th Dec 2017, 10:19
... I wouldn't pretend to argue against that, some people find driving cars at high speed fun - Lewis Hamilton for one, but I doubt he'd be so reckless to do it on a public road open for normal traffic. ...



You might want to slightly re-think that one

Formula 1's Lewis Hamilton fined for driving stunts - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11067471)

chuks
19th Dec 2017, 10:39
Modern cars have chips that can be read to reconstruct driving history.

For example, when prominent far-right politician JŲrg Haider died in a late-night, single-driver accident in Austria the cops were able to state that he'd been doing well over the speed limit on a foggy road at night. (This was important to know because of some suspicion that he'd been killed in a staged accident, perhaps the victim of internal feuding on the far right.) They read the data from a chip in his VW Phaeton that showed, that he'd been driving at 142 km/h. (88 mph) on a road limited to 70 km/h (43 mph). Also, the autopsy showed that he was well over the blood alcohol limit.

In the case of this accident it should be simple to discover what speed that Audi had been doing just before the crash and the state of its driver at the time.

One thing that is remarkable is how many of these hoons choose to document their bad driving. We had a fellow in Bremen who had been posting clips quite regularly of his foolishness on a big bike. He then managed to run over a pedestrian in the city (who was crossing the street on a red, but ... ), killing him quite dead. This fool turned out not to have a full license, plus he tore up a nerve that left his right arm lame. The state even put him on trial for murder, when part of the prosecution evidence was his own documentation of the way he had been riding.

Andy_S
19th Dec 2017, 12:51
So, it turns out that one of the deceased occupants of the Audi was a convicted drug dealer, recently released from prison, who had previously been the subject of a 120mph police pursuit on the M6.

Why am I not surprised?

mrangryofwarlingham
19th Dec 2017, 13:06
Effluent man

We are on the same page

I shall be driving to Germany next week as I regularly do.
If conditions are appropriate, I will probably exceed 180kph on occasion
In my 4.4 litre car......

Thatís after I have driven down the M2 to Dover and been overtaken a few times by traffic probably imagining they are already in Germany 🇩🇪

Regarding underpasses...I would suggest even the speed limit might be too fast if the roads are icy.

Blacksheep
19th Dec 2017, 13:28
Meanwhile the chavs run time trials late at night: in Hatfield, they use Comet Way as a drag strip and also use the empty (at night) Galleria Car Park for "Donut" competitions. The Hatfield Police Headquarters is on Comet Way, directly opposite the Galleria Car Park. The traffic lights outside the Police HQ are the starting line for the drag races. :ugh:

Effluent Man
19th Dec 2017, 15:15
So, it turns out that one of the deceased occupants of the Audi was a convicted drug dealer, recently released from prison, who had previously been the subject of a 120mph police pursuit on the M6.

Why am I not surprised?

Not surprised either. When I saw the pics of them posted it occurred to me that having a car like that it wasn't too likely he worked in a normal occupation. Youngsters with too much money usually have either wealthy parents or crime connections.

ATNotts
19th Dec 2017, 18:57
Is 93mph

Plenty of UK drivers exceed 90mph on UK motorways and dual carriageways
150kph is very commonly exceeded in Germany

You donít need to be a head case to exceed 93mph

UK courts have decided that speeding does not automatically equate to dangerous driving.

A few drivers exceed 90mph on British motorways, plenty drive between 80 - 85mph.

In my experience, if I'm driving on a derestricted autobahn (and there aren't as many of those as there used to be, certainly in western Germany) and running at 140 km/h not that many cars overtake, perhaps 5% of traffic. The recommended maximum is 130 km/h, and again, in my experience, driving during the day, if you drive at 130 - 140 km/h and driving in the nearside lane except when overtaking, you're not inconveniencing those few who want to drive at excessive speed.

Speed doesn't automatically equate to dangerous driving, but I wouldn't recommend suggesting that next time you're on a speed awareness course, that doesn't fit the police's or AA Drivetech's narrative.

mrangryofwarlingham
19th Dec 2017, 19:33
A few drivers exceed 90?

Plenty do

On stretches of the M23 and M40 where there are no speed cameras...to see a car exceeding 90 is common.

Last time I was on a speed awareness course (just over a year ago) I did indeed point out that speeding did not equate to dangerous driving. If judges have said so in court when throwing out a case of alleged dangerous driving where the accused was doing 130mph on the M3, then it is good enough for me.
And the focus of speed awareness courses is speeding in built up areas where speeding is more likely to be considered dangerous. You should attend one sometime.

mrangryofwarlingham
19th Dec 2017, 19:36
Black sheep

The super rich Arabs use Knightsbridge as a drag strip in their Ferrariís and lambos.
Same chav behaviour...just loads more money.

Is your suggestion that the accident in the tunnel in Birmingham was related to drag strip racing ?

meadowrun
19th Dec 2017, 19:53
Perhaps it's time to limit top speeds of all ground vehicles.
Every road has a top speed limit. No need to engineer speed capabilities much beyond the highest speed limit (exclude Germany)
The focus these days is on fuel conservation, emission controls. Stop spending on speed engineering = more money on efficiency. Stop excessive speeds - save fuel. (Having said that, even some of the new electrics (read Tesla) are capable of "ludicrous" speed, for little reason.)
Who needs your average Honda or BMW being driven by the average poorly skilled driver, capable of over 90 or 100mph?
But you want to get from one major centre to another at zip speed in comfort - do I have a fast train or aircraft for you!
But I feel the need for speed!
Fine.
But Not on regular roads. It's transport, not racing.

Ogre
19th Dec 2017, 20:34
I would raise the subject of the media, specifically films, showing these sort of activities as full of thrills and spills. There are a whole series of movies that portray street races around cities, no-one ever finds that the local populace is on their "raceway" going about their lawful business!

It was a bit ironic that one of the stars of these films dies in a car crash (in which he was a passenger) where a high performance car was being driven at speeds in excess of the limit when it crashed into a lamp post.

ExXB
20th Dec 2017, 06:51
Two solutions, all cars to be fitted with governors to limit speed to posted limit. +10 kph excess permitted but time-limited.

Or, all cars to broadcast speed and plaque numbers to roadside sensors. Fines for travel above 10kph sent automatically by sms and direct debit. Police automatically advised of stupid driving.

We have the technology which will save lives.

Or, of course, only self-driving cars allowed. Now that will save lives, and do away with high speed loonies. No point putting expensive noisy kit on a car when the noise can’t be controlled by the idiot behind the wheel

Trossie
20th Dec 2017, 07:09
Why are you blaming the Audi driver ? From the way I usually see Audis driven, that is a good staring point!

ExXB
20th Dec 2017, 07:14
Timely report Why does speeding feel so good? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-42406692/why-does-speeding-feel-so-good)

And the Amtrack accident in Washington state was caused by excessive speed that could have been controlled had the technology been in place. Of course lobbying by the rail owners with the US Congress put of the 2015 deadline for that well into the future.

In the U.K. speed kills more than drink driving.

crewmeal
20th Dec 2017, 07:25
I used that underpass that afternoon and I was doing 40mph which is the limit. There were idiots in suped up Hondas with lowered suspension zooming past at 70+ Why? Because the cameras on both sides are switched off to save money.

meadowrun
20th Dec 2017, 07:26
Last night. R8 on Burrard Bridge estimated at 120kph into taxi. R8 driver dead, cab driver in hospital. Both cars exploded. R8 is ash.


Here there is a significant situation with foreign students funded by millions in Asian family money with mansions and the fastest on tyres but with no skills or sense. But that's just one example of the types of stupid speed we're seeing.

ExXB
20th Dec 2017, 07:34
Well, S/he has removed itself from the gene pool. Darwin was right.

New drivers should have limitations on night driving, who they can carry, and, in particular, distracted driving in place and enforced. Limitations like what type of cars they drive will get political contributors, like Jim Pattison, upset.

ATNotts
20th Dec 2017, 08:52
And the focus of speed awareness courses is speeding in built up areas where speeding is more likely to be considered dangerous. You should attend one sometime.

I did, about 8 years ago, and I'm having another one in January. Last time it was suggested by participant that on a clear motorway at night driving above the limit is fine; he was put down firmly by the "trainer".

Will be interesting to see if the course has changed at all since I last did it, when I did find it informative.

mrangryofwarlingham
20th Dec 2017, 09:01
I didnt say it was ďfineĒ
I said speeding is not automatically dangerous
Thankfully judges interpret and apply law in this country, not driving instructors.

mrangryofwarlingham
20th Dec 2017, 09:17
It is possible to apply governors to cars
Lorries already have them
There are plenty of safety arguments in favour
And it would undoubtedly save lives

But it would be a brave government that did so
Cars are seen as a freedom, and restraint of freedom is a vote loser

If saving lives is the number one priority, then we should also be banning alcohol and cigarettes

Not everyone wants to drive around in a Honda leaf or Nissan volt
Even ford escorts and VW golfs can do well over TWICE the national speed limit

Several cars are speed limited by manufacturers to 155
Some motorbikes are speed limited to 186
Even little 125cc bikes can do more than 70mph

So rather than wrap everyone in cotton wool
Speed limit everything
I predict.....
The government will do nothing. Various reasons.... votes, revenue,

ATNotts
20th Dec 2017, 09:31
It is possible to apply governors to cars
Lorries already have them
There are plenty of safety arguments in favour
And it would undoubtedly save lives

It must be, the cruise control on our not very up market vehicle I think does allow me to set a limit on the speed, I just don't know how - I must the read the manual over Christmas - the telly will be dire anyway!!

So far as the acceptability or not of fitting speed limiters; there is a danger that the "performance vehicle" lobby could begin to sound a lot like the National Rifle Association insofar as they will say that it isn't the cars that are dangerous, it's the drivers - the same analogy as used by the NRA as regards guns. Both are flawed, but nevertheless persuasive arguments.

Personally I'd be for fitting digital, virtually tamper proof, tachographs to all vehicles, that could be analysed in the event of an accident, and could very easily establish speed, harshness and time of braking, and the number of hours the driver has been behind the wheel. If it's good enough for trucks then it is good enough for cars, and the knowledge that your driving prior to an accident could be digitally analysed may dissuade some of the more law abiding of us to think more carefully about how we drive. Another plus would be that a lot of the time the police spend doing analysis of skid marks and the like after a serious accident could be negated if the information was digitally available.

Sallyann1234
20th Dec 2017, 09:49
If we're going to be prescriptive of how people can use their cars, I'd make it an offence to modify a vehicle in any way that breaks the registered type approval for that model.
So no ECU changes, lowered suspension, exhaust modifications etc.

Gertrude the Wombat
20th Dec 2017, 12:23
restraint of freedom is a vote loser
Not any more it isn't - we recently voted to remove people's freedom to live, work and study in 27 countries. So give it a go, you might be lucky this time!

Eclectic
20th Dec 2017, 12:30
Not any more it isn't - we recently voted to remove people's freedom to live, work and study in 27 countries. So give it a go, you might be lucky this time!

This is not true.

UniFoxOs
20th Dec 2017, 12:34
we recently voted to remove people's freedom

I guess the "we" doesn't include yourself. And I guess any "we" voting to restrict other freedoms would.

Sorry this has turned into a political argument, but speeding always does. Read any of the 9494 previous threads on it.

The Nip
20th Dec 2017, 13:59
Again this thread follows the standard outrage. Person alledged speeding, kills people, therefore bring in laws to ban every car that exceeds the speed limit.

One of the victims was jailed in Nov 16 for 3 years for a high speed chase (140 +) and also dealing drugs. So 12 months later back on the road. Some deterrent.

Sort out proper sentences for those who are the real danger on the road. I would like to see more police on traffic duty. Make fines really hurt. Not only should you pay a fine you should pay for the system to process that fine.

G-CPTN
20th Dec 2017, 14:02
A fine for the miscreant drug dealer would be 'small change'.

meadowrun
20th Dec 2017, 14:20
therefore bring in laws to ban every car that exceeds the speed limit.


Don't think anyone has suggested that.


Could you tell me the rationale behind designing day in day out transportation capable of exceeding the speed limits by 2 1/2- 3 times? Why is that capability needed on public roads?

Dan_Brown
20th Dec 2017, 14:27
Out of curiosity

Why title the thread Birmingham 6?
I recall the 6 ďIRA bombersĒ wrongly jailed and eventually freed
Is the naming of this thread deliberately insensitive?

Six?? 6 dead, at least one almost dead and countless lives effected. Yes the Birmingham 6 does have a familiar ring to it doesn't it? Many murdered, countless lives effected, and 6 locked up. Wrongly as it turned out.

So to assist, 6 dead and very many lives effected. Cause? I bet my pension it was a macho thing, fast car driven a driver incapable of "reading" the surface conditions and nothing between the ears?

Hardly rocket science is it?

German cars. What have the K****S done for the UK?? (Aside from the fact they have risen up, twice last centery) Why not support British industry, therefore jobs??

Espada III
20th Dec 2017, 15:07
German cars. What have the K****S done for the UK?? (Aside from the fact they have risen up, twice last centery) Why not support British industry, therefore jobs??

Almost all airbags worldwide are made frm material manufactured in Bury, Lancashire.

Effluent Man
20th Dec 2017, 15:41
[QUOTE=787-1;9993961]Why are you blaming the Audi driver ?

Of course there is no definitive proof of his guilt. I would however be quite prepared to wager quite a large sum that it will turn out to be the case. I don't think that my money would be at great risk.

Andy_S
20th Dec 2017, 16:38
Of course there is no definitive proof of his guilt. I would however be quite prepared to wager quite a large sum that it will turn out to be the case. I don't think that my money would be at great risk.


Iím afraid my suspicions were raised the moment I heard that one of the cars involved was a) carrying several young men and b) being driven around the city in the early hours of the morning.

That was before I knew anything about the cars or the background of the people involved. And nothing Iíve heard since leads me to believe Iíve jumped to the wrong conclusion.

DType
20th Dec 2017, 17:04
He was under "probation service supervision".
Not very effective, was it?

topradio
20th Dec 2017, 20:24
The problem with introducing more regulation (suggestions of compulsory speed limiters etc) is missing the point that a lot of these people are already ignoring the law and driving illegal cars in dangerous ways without the necessary licence, insurance, mot etc. Why would anybody think that introducing new laws will suddenly make all the scroats out there think that they had better comply.
Only one way to keep the law abiding population safer and that's to lock up the bad guys for a long time.*

*its often said that prison doesn't work, that's not because its too harsh but because its not harsh enough. At least while they are locked up they aren't dealing drugs or mowing down innocent passers by.

meadowrun
20th Dec 2017, 21:16
Dunno. Pretty easy to spot boy racers et al by their gaudish cars. Take them down one by one, they will be in violation. Got to have some police tho', and motivated would be nice.


Got one outside my building these past couple of days. Thinks it is appropriate to loud exhaust idle for 20 minutes to warm up below my window. Repeatedly.
I have a couple of exhaust pipe fitting potatoes for the very next time.

Effluent Man
20th Dec 2017, 21:27
I can thoroughly recommend the method. My primary school headmaster had a Humber Super Snipe, the old model like the army used for chauffeuring high ranking occifers. One day he had a go at me and the next I nicked a nice tater from mum's vegetable box.

It was a good tight fit. When he started the car to go home there was a few seconds of normal running followed by a massive explosion as his exhaust blew to bits.

mrangryofwarlingham
20th Dec 2017, 23:34
OMG

What have loud exhausts got to do with this underpass accident?

D.Brown

Got to say the thread....to use this fatal accident as the basis for you to moan about loud exhaust pipes...thatís stooopid

And to call it the Birmingham six
Thatís just crass

But seems I am the only one to be offended by this
So I am in the wrong company

Bye bye thread
And actually bye bye jet blast and pprune

Bye bye all

treadigraph
20th Dec 2017, 23:42
vWhat have loud exhausts got to do with this underpass accident?

Attitude. An enormous but delusional opinion regarding one's appendage.

Effluent Man
21st Dec 2017, 04:45
I am sure that all contributors have sympathy for the innocent half of the casualty list. The problem is the other half. By their attitude they have been responsible for this appalling crash and I have to say that, certainly in my opinion, the world is a better and safer place without them. It is just a shame that they could not have chosen a tree or a concrete pillar to have brought about their demise rather than another road user. Dispute my distribution of liability at your peril.

4mastacker
21st Dec 2017, 07:48
Wow!! A flounce worthy of ARRSE.

Dan_Brown
21st Dec 2017, 09:01
I am sure that all contributors have sympathy for the innocent half of the casualty list. The problem is the other half. By their attitude they have been responsible for this appalling crash and I have to say that, certainly in my opinion, the world is a better and safer place without them. It is just a shame that they could not have chosen a tree or a concrete pillar to have brought about their demise rather than another road user. Dispute my distribution of liability at your peril.

Well said.

andytug
21st Dec 2017, 09:08
The problem with introducing more regulation (suggestions of compulsory speed limiters etc) is missing the point that a lot of these people are already ignoring the law and driving illegal cars in dangerous ways without the necessary licence, insurance, mot etc. Why would anybody think that introducing new laws will suddenly make all the scroats out there think that they had better comply.
Only one way to keep the law abiding population safer and that's to lock up the bad guys for a long time.*

*its often said that prison doesn't work, that's not because its too harsh but because its not harsh enough. At least while they are locked up they aren't dealing drugs or mowing down innocent passers by.

Clearly you've never been in a prison, or spoke to anyone who has. Prisons are the best place to deal drugs there is!
Under-investment in the prison system is just turning out worse criminals than when they went in. Plus it's also the biggest recruitment ground for Islamic extremists. Give people no hope and they will turn to anything.

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Dec 2017, 09:42
He was under "probation service supervision".
Not very effective, was it?
Don't see how it can be, when each probation officer has a case load of around 8,246 people and at best can expect to spend 90 seconds per year on the phone with each one.

If you want a better service then guess what: you have to be prepared to pay more tax, and people won't vote for that.

Rail Engineer
21st Dec 2017, 19:58
There is a real problem in Birmingham with mostly men of young age from a certain section of the community who appear to be allowed to drive round in mostly German cars at high speed and very aggressively. A family friend who is a Police Officer has told us that they (the Police) have been instructed not to tackle driving/insurance offences when the culprits come from a certain section of the Community.

The Police are also reluctant to get involved in law enforcement with those Communities because very quickly things escalate with threatening groups forming, followed subsequently by complaints about the Police Officers involved from that community fully supported by our good friends from the Left. As will be expected even if there is no basis to the claim, no action is taken against the complainant but the matters stands on the Officer's personal file and if there are subsequent complaints (unjustified again) it can lead to an Officer being removed.

There is therefore NO incentive for the West Midlands Police to tackle these people, and without even hearing the full details on Sunday it was easy to surmise (correctly) the group involved, and that speeding was at the forefront of the causes.

I really do not understand why any Country that has a speed limit on its roads should allow the sale of vehicles that can exceed the speed limits by a substantial amount. Why do we need cars that can do 140mph plus when the legal limit is 70 ???????

Rail Engineer
21st Dec 2017, 20:01
Don't see how it can be, when each probation officer has a case load of around 8,246 people and at best can expect to spend 90 seconds per year on the phone with each one.

If you want a better service then guess what: you have to be prepared to pay more tax, and people won't vote for that.Not necessarily true.


If we spent our tax revenue more efficiently, and enforced more of our laws that generate fines then why should we need to increase taxes ???

UniFoxOs
21st Dec 2017, 20:18
A family friend who is a Police Officer has told us that they (the Police) have been instructed not to tackle driving/insurance offences

Failure to take action against dangerous driving and lack of insurance is also an offence. Any police officer who promotes or accepts such a policy should be in jail.

This country had a nasty and expensive lesson on the futility of appeasing bullies 80 years ago and it seems it is all forgotten.

Effluent Man
21st Dec 2017, 20:25
I am sure that in the present climate any officer who went public with the details of such claims would actually put themselves in a very strong position as a whistleblower.

UniFoxOs
22nd Dec 2017, 04:41
very strong position as a whistleblower

You mean "in danger of a life of misery as a whistleblower"

Katamarino
22nd Dec 2017, 18:15
Not necessarily true.


If we spent our tax revenue more efficiently, and enforced more of our laws that generate fines then why should we need to increase taxes ???

GtW is a politician, so spending taxpayer money efficiently is unlikely to be something that occurs to him :ok:

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2017, 19:06
If we ... enforced more of our laws that generate fines then why should we need to increase taxes ???
Erm ... try reading that again, slowly and carefully? How, exactly, do you "enforce more" without costing more?

Gertrude the Wombat
22nd Dec 2017, 19:07
GtW is a politician, so spending taxpayer money efficiently is unlikely to be something that occurs to him :ok:
You try it. I've routinely seen vastly more value got for £1 in the public sector than I ever have in the private sector, where there aren't the same pressures to be efficient.

Effluent Man
22nd Dec 2017, 19:49
Just a thought, but maybe people convicted of driving at more than 30 mph above a speed limit should have their licence restricted to the lowest powered cooking models - put 'em in a Panda!

TWT
22nd Dec 2017, 22:05
Excellent idea Effluent Man

Hyundai i10 and Dacia Sandero would also fit the bill. Or, a fleet of Fiat Bambinos that the offenders have to rent.

Dan_Brown
22nd Dec 2017, 23:49
I think the Tata Nano would cure a lot of these bad speeding habits. Should be mandatory for speeding and aggressive drivers, to be supplied with one, at their own expense of course. Cost effective as it is the worlds cheapest car. Hozat for willy waving material.??

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/tata/nano

Rail Engineer
25th Dec 2017, 19:02
You try it. I've routinely seen vastly more value got for £1 in the public sector than I ever have in the private sector, where there aren't the same pressures to be efficient.Clearly a politician. Have you ever managed or had any involvement in construction contracts ?

Public sector spending control is an absolute joke, and I have worked for both private and public sector clients.

Inevitably public sector tenders are badly written, are driven by the desire to save a penny and spend a pound, are always poorly scoped and defined, and always, always far to optomistic on cost because Politicians and Civil Servants do not understand business. They also have to pander the demands of short-termist "Councillors/Politicians", et al seeking party political gain.

There are so many examples of this to be seen in the disaster that enfolded the Country between 1997 and 2010. Let me give you just - the new QE Hospital in Birmingham was built without a morgue because it was overlooked, the Hospital is so large that staff spend most of their break travelling to and from the canteen, and the Hospital now costs so much to run that they are closing wards because they have no money to employ Doctors and Nurses.

bosnich71
26th Dec 2017, 10:08
Three killed on Christmas Eve just down the road from where I live in Melbourne.Straight piece of road,70 kms per hour speed limit.Audi with two in it collided with a Honda Jazz containing two ladies.one of the ladies died and the other is critical.The two in the Audi died on impact.The Audi was described as being driven at very high speed,got out of control and crashed head on with the Jazz.It is now revealed that the Audi occupants were from an ethnic background which seems to like driving somewhat illegally....could be similar to the problems in UK.