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ShotOne
15th Dec 2017, 19:47
The trial of Liam Allen collapsed today after it emerged that Police withheld phone records showing the alleged victim begging for "casual sex" and telling friends how much they had enjoyed having sex with the accused. Mr Allen had been on bail for two years but the crucial phone records, repeatedly requested by defence lawyers weren't released until the day of the trial.

BehindBlueEyes
15th Dec 2017, 20:31
I read this too - if the reporting is accurate, it sounds a diabolical and very frightening bit of mishandling by the police. This innocent man could have been jailed for 12 years and put on the sex offenders register for life because of a spurned lover.

VP959
15th Dec 2017, 20:47
The thing that REALLY annoys me is that the woman who made up this allegation and caused all this anguish for the defendant is allowed to remain anonymous. At the very least she should be "outed" now, as she has been shown to have fabricated a great deal of her evidence, it seems.

Quite why the police didn't take note of the many thousands of emails/texts between the two, that confirmed that she had been pestering him for sex, bragging to her friends about how good he was in bed, etc, BEFORE passing the case to the CPS and the subsequent decision to charge him beggars belief.

ShotOne
15th Dec 2017, 21:02
Agreed. Most of the criticism has focused on the bun-fight between police and cps as to whose fault it was the phone records weren't disclosed. My issue is more fundamental; in the light of those records why was he even charged?

redsnail
15th Dec 2017, 21:42
Disgraceful. I don't know why she made those allegations. They have ruined a man's life for years. That should not go unpunished.

The real tragedy is that genuine assault cases just got harder to be taken seriously....

Ogre
15th Dec 2017, 22:16
"Regardless of the history, if a woman says "No" she means "No"". A simple statement but with the current rise in certain topics related to sexual proclivity, no wonder men feel they can't win.

Linedog
15th Dec 2017, 22:24
"Regardless of the history, if a woman says "No" she means "No"". A simple statement but with the current rise in certain topics related to sexual proclivity, no wonder men feel they can't win.

But if a woman says yes, she means yes.

Maybe he should have given in and taken one for the team. :ok:

skydiver69
15th Dec 2017, 22:58
I've just completed a 4 week CID course which had a lot of emphasis on disclosure and the recording and reviewing of unused material. I now have a better understanding of the subject but even before the course I had a working knowledge and knew full well that when I signed the SDC1 or 2 or the MG6 C/D or E, I was responsible for reviewing all the unused material I had collected and that I would disclose anything which undermines the case for the prosecution or would assist the defence. Given that I can't understand how a massive quantity of phone and text messages either wasn't reviewed or wasn't listed as unused particularly as they were undermining. The one explanation I can think of is that the DC involved in the case was so over worked that he or she didn't have the time to review the phone info. The Met has been struggling to recruit DCs for a number of years and has also had problems filling positions in specialist departments. Even colleagues in my force which has filled most of its DCs roles, have crime queues of 25-30 offences which is way too many to allow a decent investigation to take place of each offence.

radeng
15th Dec 2017, 23:07
Is it likely that the Met will have to pay the full defence costs - including losses caused by time off work?

If the problem is down to workload because of staff shortage, the Treasury should pay ALL the costs.....but I bet that neither they or the Met will pay anything.

Jet II
15th Dec 2017, 23:42
I see the prosecutor on this case was Jerry Hayes, the ex-Conservative MP from Harlow.

Tankertrashnav
16th Dec 2017, 00:59
After this fiasco the question for anonymity in rape cases surely has to be revisited. Organisations such as Women Against Rape (are there any women FOR rape?) constantly trot out the old argument that revealing the accused's name encourages other alleged victims of the accused to come forward. But this must surely take second place to the principle that a person is innocent until proved guilty. Of course this poor chap has been found not guilty but he has had to endure over two years of hell because of this woman's lies. If as has been reported on the radio, and confirmed by skydiver the police and CPS really are overwhelmed by work in the matter of sifting evidence, then that is surely even more reason to ensure that accused men are granted the same anonymity as their accuser

On that subject, do people remember the case of the actress who made a fantastic accusation that she had been manually penetrated by a man who bumped against here as she was crossing the crowded concourse of a London rail terminus a year or two back? The case, which had incredibly been brought by the CPS in spite of CCTV evidence which showed that the accusation was nonsense was thrown out by the jury in about 15 minutes, after they had seen the CCTV. Nevertheless the woman retained her anonymity, was not charged with making a false accusation, and is now back working for the BBC in her former acting role. This is common knowledge for anyone who wishes to do a little internet searching, and yet if I were to reveal her name I would not only be breaking PPRuNes rules but would be committing a criminal offence. The name of the man on the other hand is in the public domain, no doubt much to his embarrassment.

Lantern10
16th Dec 2017, 01:15
She should certainly be in jail, along with the cops who didn't review the evidence correctly.

Il Vero Padrino
16th Dec 2017, 01:29
The one explanation I can think of is that the DC involved in the case was so over worked that he or she didn't have the time to review the phone info. Another and more likely explanation is that the Police decided to withhold the evidence.

ExSp33db1rd
16th Dec 2017, 04:57
The thing that REALLY annoys me is that the woman who made up this allegation and caused all this anguish for the defendant is allowed to remain anonymous. At the very least she should be "outed" now, as she has been shown to have fabricated a great deal of her evidence, it seems.

Totally agree, like Racism, sexual harrassment only seems to be accepted in one direction.

She should be done for perjury, or fraud, or ......I'm sure there's something ?

sitigeltfel
16th Dec 2017, 06:50
She should be done for perjury, or fraud, or ......I'm sure there's something ?

They get a quack to diagnose them with some sort of mental condition, and bingo, no action is taken!

Free, and anonymous, to maybe do it again.

I see the prosecutor on this case was Jerry Hayes, the ex-Conservative MP from Harlow.

Not sure what your point is in mentioning that, unless you are trying to introduce a political element?
As the prosecuting barrister, he has been as outraged as anyone about the police "hiding" of evidence.

The Nr Fairy
16th Dec 2017, 07:14
Another and more likely explanation is that the Police decided to withhold the evidence.

Shouldn't this comment be in the "offensive and patronising" thread?

ORAC
16th Dec 2017, 07:16
The prosecutor in question was only appointed to the case a couple of days before the case and, on finding the place had been refusing to hand over the telephone data, immediately ordered tha5 they should do so. Having been told the content he and the defence immediately approached the judge. He’s the only reason the truth came out.

ORAC
16th Dec 2017, 07:26
Rape case scandal is just ‘tip of the iceberg’ (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rape-case-scandal-is-just-tip-of-the-iceberg-7hdjtlv9z)

The case of an innocent student put on trial for rape because police withheld evidence is just the “tip of the iceberg”, senior barristers said last night.......

Angela Rafferty, QC, chairwoman of the Criminal Bar Association, said yesterday that without the intervention of the barristers in court Mr Allan “would have suffered an appalling miscarriage of justice” because of the failure of police and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). She warned that the failure was “not an isolated incident” and said that police and the CPS may be “unconsciously bias[ed]” towards people who report sex offences.

Mr Allan’s acquittal comes as concern grows over a series of rape cases involving young men that have fallen apart because of fears about the quality of the evidence. A report in July by HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate, seen by this newspaper, found that police and CPS staff blamed “limited resources and lack of time” for the poor disclosure of evidence. The inspectors found that the failure to deal with issues early meant that unauthorised disclosure between lawyers, unnecessary adjournments and discontinued cases “are common occurrences”. The report said that at least 56 cases had been scrapped because of failure to disclose evidence between 2013 and last year.

More than half of the 146 cases reviewed showed “obvious disclosure issues” before the suspect was charged. In 38.3 per cent of these cases the prosecution did not deal with these issues “at all”. The inspectors said that problems with disclosure had been known for “many years” and warned that “no improvement will result and the likelihood of a fair trial can be jeopardised”.

Critics said Mr Allan’s case showed that lessons had not been learnt. Ms Rafferty said: “The case should never have been brought. Public funds were wasted, he spent two years on bail, and no good has come of it. The authorities do not appear to have learnt lessons from the joint report by HM Inspectors of the CPS and Constabulary in July 2017, which highlighted systemic failures and offered remedies.”

Dapinder Singh, QC, who specialises in complex frauds and serious crime, said the failure to disclose evidence in Mr Allan’s case may be “just the tip of the iceberg”. He added: “Disclosure is the backbone of the criminal justice system and a defence team must be able to trust the prosecution to properly discharge their disclosure duties.”.......

The woman who accused Mr Allan faces investigation for attempting to pervert the course of justice. The detective involved will be questioned about the failure to hand over the vital evidence...... In Mr Allan’s case, the phone records were handed over only when a new prosecutor agreed to a request from the defence barrister to see any material from the woman’s phone. Judge Peter Gower said on Thursday it was clear that Mr Allan would not have been charged if the messages had been seen, and demanded an inquiry into the failure to produce them......

ShyTorque
16th Dec 2017, 07:45
Reading about this outrageous episode put a chill down my spine, as it should for any man, especially as she has so far been allowed to remain anonymous.

Hopefully she will be prosecuted and her name plastered over the media very soon.

sitigeltfel
16th Dec 2017, 08:03
There has been talk of a private prosecution if the DPP don't take action against the liar in this case.

There is however a Catch 22 element to it. The complainer requires the consent of the DPP to do this, and the DPP can then take on the case, then dismiss it if they feel it has no merit or is not in the public interest.

B Fraser
16th Dec 2017, 08:20
It seems that Mr Allen is a student of criminology which means that he is well equipped to sue the living daylights out of the police and the DPP if they choose to do nothing.

Both the woman in question and the actress should be prosecuted. Had a man made false accusations then we all know what the well-deserved outcome would have been. A period of reflection in HMP Barwick Green perhaps ?

ORAC
16th Dec 2017, 08:25
It is equally a condemnation of her “friends” that, over two years, not one spoke to the defence - rather seeming happy for a 20 year old to face 12 years in prison and lifetime disgrace for an offence and allegation they knew to be untrue.

Curious Pax
16th Dec 2017, 09:46
It's unfortunate that the issue of the police not sharing evidence as they should came out as part of a rape trial, as it somewhat muddies the discussion - see a lot of the posts above. Quite telling that although the police are effectively attempting to pervert the course of justice, a lot of folks seem to prefer to fixate on the misdeeds of the rape (non) victim.

Having said that, I do agree with the idea that there should be consequences for trying to get someone you know to be innocent convicted of any crime.

Pace
16th Dec 2017, 09:46
Married City lawyer Graeme Stening 'had rush hour sex outside Waterloo station' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3465215/Married-City-lawyer-51-sex-street-prominent-barrister-outside-Waterloo-station-peak-rush-hour.html)

This was the most disgusting abuse of the anonymity rights of women

The problem for men is rape is one of the most awful charges to have. Often nothing is resolved for years and even if innocent these mens lives are ruined by the no smoke without fire or guilty until proved innocent stigma

Their careers, mental health, marriages can be ruined and in some cases have lead to suicide

It is not right that women can remain anonymous while innocent mens characters are dragged through the mud in the public eye

ORAC
16th Dec 2017, 10:01
It's unfortunate that the issue of the police not sharing evidence as they should came out as part of a rape trial, as it somewhat muddies the discussion Unfortunately not. From parts of the article I did not originally post above.....

“....Mr Allan’s acquittal comes as concern grows over a series of rape cases involving young men that have fallen apart because of fears about the quality of the evidence.

A report in July by HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate, seen by this newspaper, found that police and CPS staff blamed “limited resources and lack of time” for the poor disclosure of evidence. The inspectors found that the failure to deal with issues early meant that unauthorised disclosure between lawyers, unnecessary adjournments and discontinued cases “are common occurrences”. The report said that at least 56 cases had been scrapped because of failure to disclose evidence between 2013 and last year......

Among cases to have fallen apart recently are those of George Owen, a 21-year-old trainee accountant, who was cleared in September by a jury that took two hours to find that he had not forced himself on a 19-year-old student as they left a bar in Manchester. The previous week, two young men were cleared of raping girls after nights out. Bartolomeo Joly de Lotbiniere, 22, a student at York University, was reported to police when he appeared on University Challenge — 14 months after having sex with his accuser. Joshua Lines, 23, was accused by a fellow student who had invited him into her bed. Both said that the sex was consensual and were found not guilty, prompting questions about why they had ended up in court.....

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 10:35
It seems that Mr Allen is a student of criminology which means that he is well equipped to sue the living daylights out of the police and the DPP if they choose to do nothing.

Both the woman in question and the actress should be prosecuted. Had a man made false accusations then we all know what the well-deserved outcome would have been. A period of reflection in HMP Barwick Green perhaps ?

From what I've heard and read, Mr Allan is intending to sue both the police and the CPS. I've no doubt he will receive a substantial settlement, as the evidence of the tens of thousands of messages sent between his accuser, himself and his accuser's friends, allegedly stating how much she enjoyed sex with him, how she requested sex from him on several occasions etc make it very hard to see how his arrest and subsequent charge could be justified, let alone getting so far as to a court case.

One wonders if there is any scope for him to sue his accuser, on the basis that she has caused him demonstrable harm, both to his reputation and the psychological harm from being on bail and suspended from working for two years? It seems wrong to me that she has the right to remain anonymous, especially as the reported reason for her accusation was that that she was upset at not being able to see him as he was going away to college.

It seems to me that she made the compliant vindictively, a position that any man could easily find himself. How many here have either experienced, or heard of via friends, of a woman who has acted irrationally having been spurned?

I've certainly experienced it when I was younger, when I refused to take my first wife back after she'd left me for another man and that relationship then broke down some months later and she made it clear she had made a mistake and wanted us to try again (I'd moved house and moved on with my life). She repeatedly tried to break in to my (not our) house, stole my car (which I then stole back) and made a general nuisance of herself. The police would not intervene as they classified it as a "domestic dispute" (even after windows had been broken and injuries sustained during one of the attempted break-ins, judging by the blood left behind). It was a police officer who advised that the only way to get my car back was for me to steal it back, which is exactly what I did, at 4am one morning. I should be thankful that she didn't accuse me of rape, I suppose.

The old saying that "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned" has a certain element of truth behind it, in my experience.

goudie
16th Dec 2017, 11:37
If she is accused of perjury, wasting police time etc., could she then be
splashed all over the front pages? No sane bloke will ever go near her.

teeteringhead
16th Dec 2017, 11:57
the Treasury should pay ALL the costs.....but I bet that neither they or the Met will pay anything. Thry won't because they don't HAVE any money. It's all ours one way or another.

At times like this Ia lways recall a Budget Day remark from Robin Day (dates me) when a "giveaway" budget was expected.

"Of course, they give GIVE anything. But very occasionally they decide to take a little less...."

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 12:22
The accuser's name is out there if people want to find it. It cannot be disclosed (for life) in the UK, but that does not stop disclosure in other countries where UK laws do not apply.

It seems that the contents of some of the ~40,000 text, What's App etc messages retrieved via the accusers phone are being made public and published, too.

I know this link is to an article by the Daily Fail, but even so, I doubt they would publish false messages from the accuser: Police face more questions over vital evidence | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5185271/Police-face-questions-vital-evidence.html?ITO=1490)

Dan Gerous
16th Dec 2017, 12:54
With Orac on his point. Why did her friends not come forward.

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 13:23
With Orac on his point. Why did her friends not come forward.

May be because they were warned by the police that if they did they might be identifying the accuser and so committing an offence by (inadvertently, perhaps) revealing her identity?

This law is pretty screwed up, in fact it's screwed up beyond belief. I can fully understand why a genuine rape or sexual assault victim, or a child, needs to have anonymity in law for life.

I fail to understand why someone who has deliberately made vindictive claims of rape and sexual assault should have the same protection in law. It makes no sense at all.

Someone else may well find themselves in a relationship with this woman in future, and they have the same right to know about her past as the accused, in my view. Had she got away with this, and had Liam Allan been found guilty, then there is a reasonable chance are that she may well have tried it again the next time she was spurned.

ORAC
16th Dec 2017, 13:32
VP959, already happens (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/24/woman-jailed-10-years-false-rape-claims-jemma-beale).

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 13:57
VP959, already happens (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/24/woman-jailed-10-years-false-rape-claims-jemma-beale).

Indeed it does, I'd missed that case.

I've been reading through some of the thousands of What's App and text messages the accuser allegedly sent and received (someone is busy putting them all up on the web, it seems, along with the accusers ID). From what I've read so far, I'd say the accuser in this case was very similar in many ways to the woman in that case. The messages seem to show that the accuser was the one who was not only actively chasing Liam Allan for sex, but also complaining to friends that, although he was good in bed the accuser wanted him to simulate strangulation and rape (it's not clear whether or not he consented, but it seems he probably didn't from some of the later messages).

The most relevant messages refer to being unable to go without sex for 9 months once Liam Allan started his university course, when presumably it wouldn't be as easy to see him. Friends were asked, both male and female, how they cope without sex and it's even suggested to some that they should come around now to have sex.

The more that is revealed about this accuser, the more convinced I am that Liam Allan should never even have been charged, and the accuser should certainly not be allowed to remain anonymous, as it seems clearly to not be in the public interest to have an anonymous person free to pull a stunt like this again on someone else, without them being aware of the accusers identity and past history.

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Dec 2017, 14:21
VP959, already happens (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/aug/24/woman-jailed-10-years-false-rape-claims-jemma-beale).
Which pops up the Grauniad's exceedingly annoying "give us some money". Which is exceedingly annoying because there is no way to tell them why you are choosing not to give them any money (in my case because I won't give money to a #brexit newspaper).

ShyTorque
16th Dec 2017, 15:16
The accuser's name is out there if people want to find it. It cannot be disclosed (for life) in the UK, but that does not stop disclosure in other countries where UK laws do not apply.Indeed - takes about thirty seconds to find out who she is. Obviously, I'm not telling. But it ought to be officially released to the public domain.

Jet II
16th Dec 2017, 15:28
Not sure what your point is in mentioning that, unless you are trying to introduce a political element?
As the prosecuting barrister, he has been as outraged as anyone about the police "hiding" of evidence.

no at all - it was just news to me that he was now a prosecutor.

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 15:31
Indeed - takes about thirty seconds to find out who she is. Obviously, I'm not telling. But it ought to be officially released to the public domain.

It will be public knowledge within 24 hours, I'm sure, as there seem to be a fair few people who are intent on making sure her name is known, despite the lifetime anonymity that UK law has supposedly provided for her.

It raises a few interesting questions, as her name can be freely known and discussed in any country except the UK, and as the internet is, by it's very nature, global, then once her name became known outside the UK it was inevitable that it would become common knowledge.

With regard to this forum, although there is no way I'm going to tempt fate, right now I'm posting this from "Italy", so outside UK jurisdiction, and I believe that the servers that run this forum are based in the US and the company that owns it is not a UK company, AFAIK, so there's probably no reason why her name could not be disclosed here by a non-UK poster. I doubt there would be any mechanism for the UK legal system to take action against either this forum or a poster outside the UK.

This is not in any way an incitement or invitation for anyone to risk posting her name here - suffice to say if you try you can find it easily enough.

UniFoxOs
16th Dec 2017, 15:32
a #brexit newspaper

The Grauniad? Seems unlikely, but I don't read left wing rags.

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Dec 2017, 15:48
The Grauniad? Seems unlikely, but I don't read left wing rags.
The Grauniad supported Labour in the general election, and Labour were standing on a pro-#brexit manifesto. QED.

NutLoose
16th Dec 2017, 17:36
The police that withheld the evidence should be in court, it's perverting the course of justice, sh*t they go after historic police officers for less..

She should also be now in the dock as was the last one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4671800/Woman-guilty-falsely-accusing-15-men-rape.html

ShotOne
16th Dec 2017, 17:49
Not sure I buy the “overworked DC” line. The point is an individual took a decision to charge this man. If this wasn’t purposely witheld it really was very gross negligence.

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 18:02
Not sure I buy the “overworked DC” line. The point is an individual took a decision to charge this man. If this wasn’t purposely witheld it really was very gross negligence.

I don't buy it either, as the 40,000 messages from her phone had already been reviewed and some of them had apparently been presented as evidence for the prosecution earlier in the case.

That means that some cherry-picking of phone messages had already been undertaken by either the police or the CPS, most probably the former.

If true, then this is not just a lazy or over-worked DC not taking note of the messages from the accuser's phone, but perhaps a case of a deliberate attempt to both hide evidence from the defence and only use messages that supported the false claims of rape and sexual assault in the file sent to the CPS.

Deltasierra010
16th Dec 2017, 20:03
This was certainly deliberate police witholding evidence, discount overworked detectives how much evidence was there, both parties statements, no physical evidence, no witnesses, his word against hers. Any experienced detective should have seen through her story, but of course that would not have been the result they wanted.

However, he was aware of her unusual messages why did he or his lawyer not make more of the importance of them much earlier. It is not normal for a woman to express her feelings in that way, this young inexperienced guy did not realise that she was unstable and that is why it's a waste of time going after her.

The dice are loaded against us guys

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 20:20
According to what has been reported, Liam Allan asked his defence barrister to obtain the phone records, as he felt they would show he was innocent. He had lost/changed his phone and didn't have a copy of them. The police/CPS declared than the phone records thy had were not relevant to the defence and so were not disclosed.

Arguably the defence team should have pushed harder, but it seems that they took the police word that there were no more phone records to disclose. It was only when the prosecution barrister asked for all the records that disclosure to the defence team was forced.

G-CPTN
16th Dec 2017, 20:50
It was only when the prosecution barrister asked for all the records that disclosure to the defence team was forced.

Which shows what an honourable man he is.

VP959
16th Dec 2017, 21:38
Which shows what an honourable man he is.

It does indeed, but in my experience barristers are generally honourable and honest, it seems to me that it's solicitors that generally give the legal profession a bad name (although obviously not all of them, just a few).

Every barrister I've ever met has been a pretty decent individual, and I'd go so far as to say that they are one of the mainstays of our rather strained legal system. I'd also add that I believe that the CPS pays peanuts, so is extremely unlikely to attract the best. In fact I'd go further, and suggest that the cps may well end up employing lawyers that would be unemployable elsewhere..............

Metro man
17th Dec 2017, 01:20
A prosecution lawyer is obliged to disclose any evidence he comes across which could prove the defendant innocent. A defence lawyer cannot disclose anything he comes across which could prove guilt.

Lantern10
17th Dec 2017, 01:55
And if she had deleted all those messages, then what?

skydiver69
17th Dec 2017, 02:19
And if she had deleted all those messages, then what?

Nothing is irretrievable, hence a CYCOMS application.

Bull at a Gate
17th Dec 2017, 10:39
We had something similar here a few years ago. One wonders why these cases go to trial.

Judge puts early end to rape case (http://www.smh.com.au/national/judge-puts-early-end-to-rape-case-20100612-y4or.html)

radeng
18th Dec 2017, 18:32
One hopes that if he sues the police, and the CPS , he wins handsomely. Unless the complainant is 'a woman of straw', he should sue her, too. In such a case, can her name be withheld? Any lawyers here who could comment?

VP959
18th Dec 2017, 18:47
From what has been reported, the moment she made the complaint her identity was protected for life, irrespective of the outcome of the trial. There seems to be no provision for lifting this right to anonymity, which in this case seems wholly wrong and most definitely not in the wider public interest.

Every man she ever meets has a right to know that she is capable of making serious false allegations that may well blight his life, so he has the choice to stay very well clear of her (if he has any sense).

Luckily her name is being covertly circulated around by a number of people who feel strongly that anonymity is not deserved in this case. However, doing this within the UK is against the law and attracts a pretty hefty sentence, I believe, so is not something to be undertaken lightly.

RAT 5
18th Dec 2017, 20:19
I read an article recently that 1 in 6 rape victim is male; and that's not taking about gay couples: it's about female doing the dirty on men, but we never hear abut them. Equality or what?

Pace
18th Dec 2017, 21:52
Rat5

It has always got the mind boggling for me to work out how a man can be raped by a woman without being aroused by that woman and hence a willing partner ?
It just wouldn’t work :ugh: and remain well ? Flat as a punctured tyre

skydiver69
18th Dec 2017, 22:14
I read an article recently that 1 in 6 rape victim is male; and that's not taking about gay couples: it's about female doing the dirty on men, but we never hear abut them. Equality or what?

Rape is one offence a woman cannot be arrested for as the offence requires penetration with a penis into a vagina, anus or mouth. A woman can do a s.2 assault by penetration but not a s.1 rape , so I think what you were referring to would be male rape. Male rape isn't purely a homosexual act by any means so both the victim and suspect can be straight.

megan
19th Dec 2017, 01:45
Some what amused (not) that a woman can ruin a fellows reputation by making false claims and she not be subject to the laws encompassing libel or slander.

Pinky the pilot
19th Dec 2017, 09:33
Rape is one offence a woman cannot be arrested for as the offence requires penetration with a penis into a vagina, anus or mouth. A woman can do a s.2 assault by penetration but not a s.1 rape


Possibly not where you come from Skydiver69, but here in South Australia only last week a Female Teacher was arrested and charged with the rape of a Male student.

That's all I can really say as the case is ongoing.

Metro man
19th Dec 2017, 11:51
If a diplomat says yes, he means maybe. If he says maybe he means no. If he says no then he's not a diplomat.

If a lady says no, she means maybe. If she says maybe she means yes. If she says yes then she's not a lady.

megan
19th Dec 2017, 15:57
Female Teacher was arrested and charged with the rape of a Male studentPresumably a sex ed class after hours tutoring.

Metro man
19th Dec 2017, 22:37
There was the case of a woman who allegedly kidnaped and raped a Mormon missionary.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_sex_in_chains_case

flash8
19th Dec 2017, 23:38
The CPS/Police are going to review current cases.

What about past cases, where evidence may have been long discarded? And not just Sex offences.

Extremely worrying.

uffington sb
20th Dec 2017, 04:38
And don’t hitchhike in South Africa.

Male hitchhiker drugged, raped by two women - NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11963218)

WingNut60
20th Dec 2017, 05:21
And don’t hitchhike in South Africa.


Pub test ? --- FAIL.

Sounds like someone floundering to explain why he needed a quick HIV test.

gruntie
20th Dec 2017, 09:27
According to the BBC another case has been dropped by the Met due to the same reason: the same officer was involved.

Metropolitan Police review of sex case evidence - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42417553)

Fire and brimstone
20th Dec 2017, 10:03
Corrupt / incompetent Police officers in the UK?

Truly shocking.

Truly surprising?

Contributing to the potential conviction of innocent citizens needs to be taken very, very seriously. Quite aside from the lives ruined, and injustice, the utter waste of Police and court resources should lead to long sentences for those found guilty.

hiflymk3
20th Dec 2017, 12:15
I wonder whether the accuser and the officer involved will be taken to court.

Andy_S
20th Dec 2017, 12:28
I wonder whether the accuser and the officer involved will be taken to court.

The officer involved is, apparently, still working.

Katamarino
20th Dec 2017, 17:54
The officer involved is, apparently, still working.

Well, a couple of attempts to fit up innocent people for rape is apparently hardly reason for the UK police to frown upon an officer :rolleyes:

skydiver69
20th Dec 2017, 18:12
My opinion about the officer in the case has changed from giving them the benefit of doubt due to high case load to one that they either deliberately withheld the information or that they displayed incompetence by not being aware of the CPIA disclosure rules. Jerry Hayes was on R4 this morning saying that the OIC told him that they would not disclose the phone records. Even if there was nothing undermining in the messages they should have been listed in the unused material schedules but if they were aware of undermining material they should have been included in that specific schedule, but either way they should have been listed somewhere on the case file. Allan has also said that he had referred the victims messages during his interviews so the OIC should have checked them for the comments he had referred to particularly as the victims phone had been examined.

I wish I was wrong about my suspicions but at the moment it isn't looking good for that DC or the MPS in general.

Lantern10
20th Dec 2017, 20:13
The time has come for Alison Saunders, the Director of Public Prosecutions, to stand down or be sacked. A young man of shining good character has just narrowly avoided a lengthy jail sentence for six rapes when there was ample evidence to prove that his accuser pestered him for sex. Thousands of messages, which police had not disclosed to the Defence, reveal that the young woman in question fantasised about rape and rough sex. When it came to the charge against Liam Allan, she texted a friend: “It wasn’t against my will.”



Alison Saunders must stand down - or be sacked (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/alison-saunders-must-stand-sacked/)

Good riddance.

Gertrude the Wombat
20th Dec 2017, 20:14
either deliberately withheld the information or that they displayed incompetence by not being aware of the CPIA disclosure rules
Cock-up usually wins over conspiracy, if only because cock-ups are so much easier to arrange. But in some cases one does wonder ...

neila83
21st Dec 2017, 03:21
Reading about this outrageous episode put a chill down my spine, as it should for any man, especially as she has so far been allowed to remain anonymous.

Hopefully she will be prosecuted and her name plastered over the media very soon.

Why on earth should it put a chill down the spine of any man? I'm a man, it doesn't worry me in the slightest, any more than anyone falsely accused of any crime, which occurs all the time.

This forum has a strange obcession with stuff like this. Can we have a thread every time someone is found not guilty of something? It might get a little busy. Or only if a woman can be demonised?

Some here have real problems with women...

VP959
21st Dec 2017, 07:57
Cock-up usually wins over conspiracy, if only because cock-ups are so much easier to arrange. But in some cases one does wonder ...

Apparently the same police officer dealt with the disclosure of evidence in both the Liam Allan case and the more recent case that was dropped. for the same reason - failure to disclose evidence to the defence that was relevant to the defendant's case.

A police officer may make an error like this once, but to do the same thing (with hold electronic messages from the complainant that were relevant to the guilt or innocence of the defendant) twice sounds very much to me as if it was deliberate.

WingNut60
21st Dec 2017, 08:03
Apparently the same police officer dealt with the disclosure of evidence in both the Liam Allan case and the more recent case that was dropped. for the same reason - failure to disclose evidence to the defence that was relevant to the defendant's case.

A police officer may make an error like this once, but to do the same thing (with hold electronic messages from the complainant that were relevant to the guilt or innocence of the defendant) twice sounds very much to me as if it was deliberate.

And the elephant in the room would be ?????

Come on ..... somebody ..... anybody ..............

Pontius Navigator
21st Dec 2017, 08:28
And the elephant in the room would be ?????

Come on ..... somebody ..... anybody ..............

Was he acting alone or . . .

How did the second case be found so quickly after when the accused had been in custody for months?

Pontius Navigator
21st Dec 2017, 08:32
On the police desire for good conviction stats, surely a good conviction only applies if there was a crime.

"Dead body, let's arrest CXXXX quick result, good for the stats"

"Err Boss, coroner says it was natural causes"

"So what, we know CXXXX would have done it if he'd been there"

WingNut60
21st Dec 2017, 09:07
Was he acting alone or . . .

How did the second case be found so quickly after when the accused had been in custody for months?

Better don my flack jacket first. And maybe I missed the answer amongst the previous posts, but the elephant that I'm seeing is - What is the gender of the police officer at the centre of this?

Ouch!

gruntie
21st Dec 2017, 12:35
He’s named in this Daily Wail article.

Greenwich student wrongly accused of rape wants anonymity | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5190501/Student-wrongly-accused-rape-calls-anonymity.html)

VP959
21st Dec 2017, 12:44
I wish they would stop using the word "victim". His accuser was not a victim at all, she was a complainant, and false one at that if the evidence made available publicly is correct.

She does not have the right to be referred to as either the "victim" or the "alleged victim" now that she has been shown to have lied about the complaints she made.

Andy_S
21st Dec 2017, 15:01
Not sure whether this belongs in the UK Politics thread or not, but it seems pertinent to this topic:

MP's aide Samuel Armstrong cleared of Westminster rape - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42441745)

Icare9
21st Dec 2017, 16:13
The thing that astonishes me is that apparently she and he had exchanged some 40,00 texts.... How the hell did they have time for any sex?

Two's in
22nd Dec 2017, 03:44
The female in this case is obviously as nutty as squirrel $hiat and needs some serious work up in a psychiatric ward somewhere far way, but the real story here once again is the rampant corruption, graft and plain villainy present in the Police (especially the Met) and the CPS. Someone needs to go through that viper's nest like a dose of salts, until then every serving officer is under suspicion for being as bent as the rest of the a$$holes. Get it fixed and then talk about integrity, professionalism and a "coppers lot" until then, STFU.

VP959
22nd Dec 2017, 12:28
Another one quashed: Rape conviction quashed over new Facebook evidence - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-42453405)

In this case it looks like the complainant deliberately deleted FB messages in order to try and hide the fact that the sex was consensual, so the jury only saw an edited version of what had passed between the complainant and the accused. The police didn't try to obtain the deleted FB messages, it wasn't until the defence managed to get copies of the archived messages, including those that had supposedly been deleted, that the truth came out at the appeal hearing.

I wonder if this complainant will have to pay back the £11,000 she probably received from the Victims Compensation Fund? I do hope so.

Katamarino
22nd Dec 2017, 15:20
Not only that, I sincerely hope that she's forced to properly compensate him for being jailed for four years, and is jailed herself.

radeng
22nd Dec 2017, 17:44
She's probably a 'woman of straw' and so has little money.....

Dr Jekyll
22nd Dec 2017, 17:47
Why on earth should it put a chill down the spine of any man? I'm a man, it doesn't worry me in the slightest, any more than anyone falsely accused of any crime, which occurs all the time.

This forum has a strange obcession with stuff like this. Can we have a thread every time someone is found not guilty of something? It might get a little busy. Or only if a woman can be demonised?

Some here have real problems with women...

The difference is that other crimes are usually a question of whodunit, not whether what happened was actually a crime, and there is pressure from the top to turn more rape accusations into convictions.

Pontius Navigator
22nd Dec 2017, 19:54
The difference is that other crimes are usually a question of whodunit, not whether what happened was actually a crime, and there is pressure from the top to turn more rape accusations into convictions.
Why?

I applaud the aim of getting an arrest and conviction when a crime has been committed, but first ensure there has been a crime.

ORAC
3rd Jan 2018, 06:35
Prosecutors in dock as CCTV clears financier Valentin Krzyzyk of Soho sex assault (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/prosecutors-in-dock-as-cctv-clears-financier-valentin-krzyzyk-of-soho-sex-assault-qsk7jzzfh)

A judge criticised prosecutors yesterday for failing to hand over crucial CCTV evidence that helped to clear a wealthy financier of groping a woman in a nightclub.

Valentin Krzyzyk, 26, was accused of grabbing the woman’s bottom after buying £6,000 worth of Dom Perignon champagne at Cirque Le Soir in Soho, central London, in December 2016. His defence lawyers repeatedly requested copies of security camera footage from inside the nightclub but it was not handed over until the first day of Mr Krzyzyk’s trial for sexual assault at Southwark crown court.

The prosecution admitted that they had not watched the video but said they had been assured by police that it contained nothing of interest to the defence. Narita Bahra, Mr Krzyzyk’s defence barrister, watched the five hours of footage and realised that it did not support the woman’s account.

Ms Bahra said that she believed Mr Krzyzyk would have been convicted if she had not secured the footage. “In most sex assault cases it is usually the complainant’s word against the defendant’s,” she said. “There will rarely be another eyewitness or independent evidence, but the independent evidence in this case completely supported his defence. The woman in this case was very persuasive and I don’t think the jury would have believed him [Mr Krzyzyk] without the CCTV.”

The five hours of footage, apart from five seconds obscured by a passerby, showed that Mr Krzyzyk had not lifted up the woman’s skirt and patted her bottom and that she had not been left hysterical as she had claimed..... The court heard that the woman complained to police a month after the alleged incident only because her boyfriend was being investigated over an attack on Mr Krzyzyk.

Judge Michael Bromley-Martin ordered an inquiry into the “reprehensible” late delivery of the footage and said that Ms Bahra’s persistence may have prevented a “serious risk of injustice”....

Senior CPS officials wrote to the judge apologising for the ten-month delay in handing over the video, saying that prosecutors had been unable to play the file given to them by police.......

Dr Jekyll
3rd Jan 2018, 07:23
Why?

I applaud the aim of getting an arrest and conviction when a crime has been committed, but first ensure there has been a crime.

I wasn't justifying it. Just responding to neila83's question as to why on earth there should be anything to worry about.

Tankertrashnav
3rd Jan 2018, 16:49
I read the report on the latest CPS fiasco mentioned by ORAC above in The Times today. Yet again there was not only mention of the accused's name but also his photograph. but once again of course his lying accuser has retained her anonymity. How long before this obvious injustice is dealt with, either by anonymity for the accused in rape and sexual assault cases, or withdrawal of the accuser's anonymity if it is proved she has been lying, as is the case here?

alfaman
3rd Jan 2018, 17:18
I read the report on the latest CPS fiasco mentioned by ORAC above in The Times today. Yet again there was not only mention of the accused's name but also his photograph. but once again of course his lying accuser has retained her anonymity. Her photo & name are in the link above: if it helps, she's the one on the left...

wiggy
3rd Jan 2018, 17:22
Her photo & name are in the link above: if it helps, she's the one on the left...

:eek::confused:


If you mean the images at the top of the article ORAC has provided the link to then you might want to have another look, just in case there's some confusion...

I'll admit being tight fisted so I can't get past the pay wall but on the section of the article I can see there certainly isn't a picture of the accuser....

treadigraph
3rd Jan 2018, 17:27
Agreed, she's the barrister who helped cleared his name.

alfaman
3rd Jan 2018, 18:56
:eek::confused:


If you mean the images at the top of the article ORAC has provided the link to then you might want to have another look, just in case there's some confusion...

I'll admit being tight fisted so I can't get past the pay wall but on the section of the article I can see there certainly isn't a picture of the accuser....

Ah, fair enough, thought she was a bit cheerful under the circs!

flash8
3rd Jan 2018, 23:31
How many innocent people are languishing in Jail due to shortcuts?

That's what happens when you cut cut cut public services to the bone... they start falling apart at the seams.

I know who I'd like to see in the Dock.

Tankertrashnav
4th Jan 2018, 00:17
Agreed, she's the barrister who helped cleared his name

For those who cannot access the site because of the firewall (I dont need to, I have the old fashioned paper version every day!)

The lady in question is indeed the defence barrister, Narita Bahra. She had to make repeated requests for CCTV evidence from the club to be handed over and was met with repeated refusals. The prosecution admitted they had not viewed all five hours of the tape as the police had assured them that it contained nothing of interest to the defence

Two points here - can it be right that the police have any say in what may or may not be be of use to the defence? In spite of their denials I cannot believe that once embarked on a prosecution police will not see an acquittal as a failure, and so they have no vested interest in helping the defence. In other words they are effectively on the prosecution's side.

Second point. Once she had finally got access to the tapes, Ms Bahra spent five hours watching the complete recording, after which it was evident that her client was not guilty of assault and that the complainant had been lying. One can only assume that to be charitable the police simply didn't have time to view the tapes, or if being less than charitable they just couldn't be arsed!

meadowrun
4th Jan 2018, 00:42
can it be right that the police have any say in what may or may not be be of use to the defense


Here, and we are based on English Common Law, all, and I mean every last little bit of evidence the prosecution has - has to be made available to the defense in advance of any trial. (and not the day before)

SnowFella
4th Jan 2018, 08:20
Kinda makes you wonder about all the historical claims where all the police and courts have is word against word?
Not saying the claims are true/false but how can a court judge "without reasonable doubt" that a 20 year old accusation is true or false when there's no evidence other than a "because I say so" evidence? :confused:

ORAC
4th Jan 2018, 08:38
Indeed, which presumably is why statutes of limitation were introduced.

But we seem to be in an era where not only cases based only on verbal claims over 30 years old are held provable, but that many even want to try dead men....

treadigraph
4th Jan 2018, 08:38
And here's another case in court now:

Harpist Danielle Perrett 'had sex with boy' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-42555985)

Is the boy a victim of abuse or a latter day fantasist? Will there be evidence one way or the other, or is it his word against theirs?

Tankertrashnav
4th Jan 2018, 10:51
Again, names and addresses of unconvicted accused being given. Yet we still do not know the identity of the fantasist and liar who accused Ted Heath and kicked off a farcical investigation which wasted thousands of hours of police time and cost the taxpayer over £1.5 million!

skydiver69
4th Jan 2018, 10:54
Two points here - can it be right that the police have any say in what may or may not be be of use to the defence? In spite of their denials I cannot believe that once embarked on a prosecution police will not see an acquittal as a failure, and so they have no vested interest in helping the defence. In other words they are effectively on the prosecution's side.

Second point. Once she had finally got access to the tapes, Ms Bahra spent five hours watching the complete recording, after which it was evident that her client was not guilty of assault and that the complainant had been lying. One can only assume that to be charitable the police simply didn't have time to view the tapes, or if being less than charitable they just couldn't be arsed!

Your first point is about disclosure which has been mentioned a few times earlier in the thread, but the part that is relevant is the question of what material has been collected which can undermine the prosecution or help the defence. A huge amount of info can be collected during an investigation with a lot of it having no relevancy to the investigation but the material which constitutes that varies from case to case. When that is the case the CPS has to rely on the records the police keep as well as the assertion of the disclosure officer that it can't help the defence. The police shouldn't have any direct influence over the defence case as its the prosecution which liaises with them, but the prosecution has to rely on what they are told by the police and the documentation supplied by the disclosure officer.

I'm left wondering what was said on the MG3 about the CCTV. The MG3 is the original report sent by the police to the CPS to get a charging decision and is a summary about what evidence has been obtained. I can think of several different scenarios about how and when in the process the MG3 was written with each one affecting what would be said about the CCTV.

ORAC
16th Jan 2018, 07:41
Cuddling photos clear man of rape (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cuddling-photos-clear-samson-makele-of-rape-k66jj55tm)

A handyman accused of rape was cleared yesterday when it was revealed that the police had failed to disclose photographs of him cuddling in bed with the alleged victim. Samson Makele, 28, hired his own expert to retrieve the crucial photographs from his mobile phone after the police said that it contained nothing of interest. The case is the latest to be abandoned by prosecutors after concerns about the police failing to find evidence that helps the defence in rape cases.

Mr Makele met the 35-year-old woman at the Notting Hill Carnival in August 2016 and they spent the night together at his home in east London. The woman told the police the next day that she had been raped by Mr Makele. Mr Makele said that they had consensual sex but he was charged with rape and spent 18 months on bail, during which time he could not leave his home at night and had to wear an electronic tag.

The police said that there was nothing of interest on his phone that was disclosable apart from text messages showing contact with the woman after the event. When detectives returned the handset to Mr Makele an independent expert found that it contained more than a dozen photographs showing Mr Makele and the women in bed cuddling.

The Crown Prosecution Service offered no evidence at a pre-trial hearing at Snaresbrook crown court yesterday.

Mr Makele is originally from Eritrea and if convicted he could have been ordered to be deported. Paris Theodorou, his solicitor, said: “Mr Makele doesn’t know whether failure to obtain the photographs by the police was an oversight or an act of sheer incompetence. Either way, his life has been intolerable and traumatic while he waited for the truth to emerge.”

Scotland Yard is reviewing the disclosure in all cases involving rape and serious sexual offences after the trial of Liam Allan, 22, collapsed last month when messages not revealed by the police showed that his accuser had lied.

Eclectic
16th Jan 2018, 08:28
I've just completed a 4 week CID course which had a lot of emphasis on disclosure and the recording and reviewing of unused material. I now have a better understanding of the subject but even before the course I had a working knowledge and knew full well that when I signed the SDC1 or 2 or the MG6 C/D or E, I was responsible for reviewing all the unused material I had collected and that I would disclose anything which undermines the case for the prosecution or would assist the defence. Given that I can't understand how a massive quantity of phone and text messages either wasn't reviewed or wasn't listed as unused particularly as they were undermining. The one explanation I can think of is that the DC involved in the case was so over worked that he or she didn't have the time to review the phone info. The Met has been struggling to recruit DCs for a number of years and has also had problems filling positions in specialist departments. Even colleagues in my force which has filled most of its DCs roles, have crime queues of 25-30 offences which is way too many to allow a decent investigation to take place of each offence.

Amazing naivety.
The police, by omission or commission, regularly massage the evidence to get the result they want. They are not the paragons of neutrality that you suppose.
Just look up the Lynette White case to see an extreme example of how they work. Or the police murder of Ian Tomlinson, where all the CCTV evidence disappeared and the perpetrator went unpunished.
The police are heavily influenced by freemasonry, swearing secret oaths that lying is not perjury if it is to look after another freemason. Look at the findings of the Hillsborough inquiry to see how the police stitch things up. Then there is the influence of Common Purpose training of very large numbers of policemen. This means social justice, political correctness and multiculturalism take precedence over the law of the land. This is why the vile and common crime of female genital mutilation is ignored by the criminal justice system.
Also look at the way the police harass the political right in Britain. Tommy Robinson, for instance, is regularly arrested in early hours police raids on his family home when he has broken no law. Yet the police do absolutely nothing about the regular death threats that he receives. It is a national disgrace. Just look at this: https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/07/uk-tommy-robinson-charged-with-inciting-hatred-for-parading-a-f-isis-flag

The police have a very difficult job to do, but they are a very long way from being paragons of probity.

Krystal n chips
16th Jan 2018, 09:09
Amazing naivety.
The police, by omission or commission, regularly massage the evidence to get the result they want. They are not the paragons of neutrality that you suppose.
Just look up the Lynette White case to see an extreme example of how they work. Or the police murder of Ian Tomlinson, where all the CCTV evidence disappeared and the perpetrator went unpunished.
The police are heavily influenced by freemasonry, swearing secret oaths that lying is not perjury if it is to look after another freemason. Look at the findings of the Hillsborough inquiry to see how the police stitch things up. Then there is the influence of Common Purpose training of very large numbers of policemen. This means social justice, political correctness and multiculturalism take precedence over the law of the land. This is why the vile and common crime of female genital mutilation is ignored by the criminal justice system.
Also look at the way the police harass the political right in Britain. Tommy Robinson, for instance, is regularly arrested in early hours police raids on his family home when he has broken no law. Yet the police do absolutely nothing about the regular death threats that he receives. It is a national disgrace. Just look at this: https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/07/uk-tommy-robinson-charged-with-inciting-hatred-for-parading-a-f-isis-flag

The police have a very difficult job to do, but they are a very long way from being paragons of probity.

First, I checked the Moons phase...it's waning... so that discounts that theory.

Second, we have no idea as to your liquid and culinary tastes, one, or both, could be a contributory factor here.

You see, whilst it's true to a point, that, over the years there have been some decidedly non law abiding and law breaking police, unfortunately, or rather fortunately, they are in the minority.

As the police recruit from a broad demographic, it's far from unreasonable to say within this group there will be those who aren't really suited to the job. Same as most occupations in fact.

Which leads to the opening lines based on that now well established fantasy called.... Common Purpose ( do they have a sub-division for chem trails at all ? ) and also, and I know this will may induce post traumatic shock, a reference to that paragon of society, that stalwart example of moderation and affinity with law and order, a model citizen in so many respects quantifying his virtues is nigh on impossible.....so, without further ado, as they say in show biz " Heeeers Tommy ! "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

Interesting to learn he used to be an engineer, presumably Avionics given that excessive coffee consumption can, as we know, have an adverse effect on the mind and body.

Tankertrashnav
16th Jan 2018, 11:39
The police are heavily influenced by freemasonry, swearing secret oaths that lying is not perjury if it is to look after another freemason.

The first part of your statement is a myth which is perpetuated by just about every TV cop show you can think of, from Morse, Frost onwards, where our hero (not a freemason of course) will at some stage make a remark about his boss going off to the lodge meeting with the chief constable, or be offered a "funny handshake" by the retired policeman he is investigating for corruption. More important is the second part of your statement (italicised) , which is quite simply untrue. As a former freemason I can categorically state that there is no such oath in freemasonry, and freemasons are expected to adhere to exactly the same laws as any other citizen.

skydiver69
16th Jan 2018, 12:51
Amazing naivety.
The police, by omission or commission, regularly massage the evidence to get the result they want. They are not the paragons of neutrality that you suppose.
Just look up the Lynette White case to see an extreme example of how they work. Or the police murder of Ian Tomlinson, where all the CCTV evidence disappeared and the perpetrator went unpunished.
The police are heavily influenced by freemasonry, swearing secret oaths that lying is not perjury if it is to look after another freemason. Look at the findings of the Hillsborough inquiry to see how the police stitch things up. Then there is the influence of Common Purpose training of very large numbers of policemen. This means social justice, political correctness and multiculturalism take precedence over the law of the land. This is why the vile and common crime of female genital mutilation is ignored by the criminal justice system.
Also look at the way the police harass the political right in Britain. Tommy Robinson, for instance, is regularly arrested in early hours police raids on his family home when he has broken no law. Yet the police do absolutely nothing about the regular death threats that he receives. It is a national disgrace. Just look at this: https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/07/uk-tommy-robinson-charged-with-inciting-hatred-for-parading-a-f-isis-flag

The police have a very difficult job to do, but they are a very long way from being paragons of probity.

If you go looking for conspiracy you will see patterns everywhere which you can attribute to unseen forces at work.

TTN has answered your point about Freemasons quite succinctly although I guess there is an argument to be had that he would say that as he was a Freemason and therefore he would want to cover up all his nefarious activity :rolleyes:

I will add one point about Tomlinson. If you look at newspaper reports you will see a lot of mobile phone and TV camera footage which clearly didn't disappear so if the Police were looking to cover up evidence they did a very poor job. Secondly Harwood was tried and acquitted of manslaughter, so the evidence was examined in open court. Personally I don't think that Harwood should have been a police officer at the time of the incident given his previous history but that's a debate for another thread, but a lot of time and effort was spent on investigating Tomlinson's death so if there had been any hint of conspiracy you would have thought it would have been reported in the media, unless of course you think the media are all Masons and are in cahoots with the police :rolleyes:

Eclectic
16th Jan 2018, 12:58
The first part of your statement is a myth which is perpetuated by just about every TV cop show you can think of, from Morse, Frost onwards, where our hero (not a freemason of course) will at some stage make a remark about his boss going off to the lodge meeting with the chief constable, or be offered a "funny handshake" by the retired policeman he is investigating for corruption. More important is the second part of your statement (italicised) , which is quite simply untrue. As a former freemason I can categorically state that there is no such oath in freemasonry, and freemasons are expected to adhere to exactly the same laws as any other citizen.


You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons... and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations.

Ronayne. Handbook of Masonry, page 183

Eclectic
16th Jan 2018, 13:00
First, I checked the Moons phase...it's waning... so that discounts that theory.

Second, we have no idea as to your liquid and culinary tastes, one, or both, could be a contributory factor here.

You see, whilst it's true to a point, that, over the years there have been some decidedly non law abiding and law breaking police, unfortunately, or rather fortunately, they are in the minority.

As the police recruit from a broad demographic, it's far from unreasonable to say within this group there will be those who aren't really suited to the job. Same as most occupations in fact.

Which leads to the opening lines based on that now well established fantasy called.... Common Purpose ( do they have a sub-division for chem trails at all ? ) and also, and I know this will may induce post traumatic shock, a reference to that paragon of society, that stalwart example of moderation and affinity with law and order, a model citizen in so many respects quantifying his virtues is nigh on impossible.....so, without further ado, as they say in show biz " Heeeers Tommy ! "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)

Interesting to learn he used to be an engineer, presumably Avionics given that excessive coffee consumption can, as we know, have an adverse effect on the mind and body.

Pouring derision is a standard tactic when trying to deny truths.

Wikileaks never lie. This is what they say about Common Purpose:
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Common_purpose

Krystal n chips
16th Jan 2018, 13:19
Pouring derision is a standard tactic when trying to deny truths.

Wikileaks never lie. This is what they say about Common Purpose:
https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Common_purpose

Oh tsk, I would never be derisory...well maybe once or twice

Did you, by any chance, write the entry ?

And a somewhat deafening silence about Robinson T.

A supporter perchance ?

Tankertrashnav
17th Jan 2018, 00:25
You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons... and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations.

Ronayne. Handbook of Masonry, page 183

A well known book which purported to be a genuine book on freemasonry, but was in fact an attack on freemasonry written by a man who had very well known anti-masonic views.

It just occurred to me - are you Edmond Ronayne?

Anyway, I repeat, there is no such oath in Freemasonry, although of course as Skydiver pointed out, I might be lying!

(But I'm not)

DaveReidUK
17th Jan 2018, 07:32
It just occurred to me - are you Edmond Ronayne?

If so, he's wonderfully active for a 185-year-old. :O

Tankertrashnav
17th Jan 2018, 10:55
Good point ! Seriously though, he really is scraping the barrel if all he can do is quote a long discredited book in support of his obvious dislike of freemasonry.

Actually I gave up freemasonry because I just didn't find it interesting enough to devote my time to, but in the time I was a member I came to know that there is absolutely nothing sinister about the organisation. The same cannot be said of certain overseas versions of the craft, and English freemasons are warned against connection with these. Some people, for example, confuse freemasonry with the Orange Order, but as a freemason you would not permitted to also be a member of that order.

ORAC
19th Jan 2018, 06:38
Two-year rape case against student Oliver Mears dropped by CPS (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/two-year-rape-case-against-student-oliver-mears-dropped-by-cps-x7wr6cb9c)

An Oxford University student who spent more than two years on bail accused of rape has had the case against him dropped following a review of evidence days before his trial.

A judge was asked by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) yesterday to record that Oliver Mears, 19, was not guilty after “a new set of eyes” looked at his case. Mr Mears, of Horley, Surrey, was arrested weeks after his 17th birthday accused of raping and indecently assaulting a woman in July 2015. He was charged last June. The chemistry student left St Hugh’s College because of stress.

His is the latest rape case to be abandoned amid political, legal and public concern about the actions of police and prosecutors. Lawyers asked for the case to be dropped hours after Alison Saunders, the director of public prosecutions, was criticised for saying that innocent people were not in jail despite admitting “systemic issues” in disclosing evidence.

Mr Mears’s lawyers complained of a failure to disclose evidence, including social media material, which they believed would prove his innocence. The CPS said yesterday that it was still receiving material from Surrey police last week and decided to drop the charges after reviewing all evidence. It denied any failure to disclose evidence........

Prosecutors in Mr Mears’s case wrote to Judge Jonathan Black asking him to record not guilty verdicts at Guildford crown court yesterday. He refused and ordered a prosecutor to attend court to explain in public why the case was being dropped. A hearing will take place today. An informed source said: “[Prosecutors] should have been reviewing the evidence three days before charging Oliver, not three [working] days before his trial.”

DaveReidUK
19th Jan 2018, 07:28
Ah, but we've got it all wrong.

"No-one is in jail after being wrongly convicted due to failures to disclose evidence, the UK's top prosecutor has said 'as far as she can tell' ".

So that's all good, then.

CPS: 'Justice system is working' after rape trials collapse (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42734185)

radeng
19th Jan 2018, 17:54
CPS: 'Justice system is working' after rape trials collapse

How the hell does she know after the recent fiascos?

Prosecutions of the complainants in such cases should follow. But a retired policeman that I know told me that the CPS 'pay b*gger all to their lawyers and don't get many good ones'. prosecuting the false allegations would vey probably show up incompetence in police and CPS at high levels, which wouldn't look good.

Tankertrashnav
19th Jan 2018, 18:53
DPP on Woman's Hour this morning talking on this subject was given the easiest of rides imaginable by the interviewer. Now there's a surprise!

Woman's Hour philosophy (to misquote Orwell) - "Two ovaries good - two testicles bad"

ORAC
3rd Feb 2018, 07:38
Missed messages clear boy, aged 17, of rape (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/missed-messages-clear-boy-of-rape-lhg8mnbkn)

A teenage schoolboy has been cleared of rape after his lawyers uncovered key evidence that proved his innocence but was missed by police and prosecutors. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has publicly blamed police officers for not discovering thousands of social media messages that proved the 17-year-old boy, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was not guilty.

He was expelled from school after his arrest by Leicestershire police in 2016, when he was 15, and is the youngest victim of the disclosure scandal engulfing the CPS. Yesterday the prosecution offered no evidence after deciding that there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. Not guilty verdicts were entered for the 14 charges against him, which included rape against two complainants, sexual assault and sexual activity with a child.

The boy was cleared after the defence found 233 pages of Facebook messages that proved his relationship with the girl of the same age was consensual. The prosecution had told the defence there were no relevant social media records but yesterday said that this was what they had been told by police. The defence found the messages in October and say they passed them on to the prosecution then. The CPS claimed that they did not receive them until November. The girl was reinterviewed then and the case was reviewed. However, the CPS notified Leicester crown court in December that it would be pushing on with the case. Only after further reviews did it drop the case.

Katya Saudek, for the defence, told Judge Nicholas Dean, QC, that she would write to the director of public prosecutions calling for an investigation into the case, which she said had been dogged by catastrophic failings.......

Following the decision to drop the case yesterday, a spokesman for the CPS said: “We have a duty to keep cases under continual review. In March 2017, as part of the charging decision, the CPS requested that police investigated social media interactions, but were informed that no messages existed. As a result of new material made available to the CPS in November 2017, further reviews of the case were undertaken.”

A Leicestershire police spokesman said: “Social media investigations were carried out but initially nothing was found that had a bearing on the case. However, when further information later came to light it was acted upon immediately. We are committed to reviewing the circumstances of this case .”

KelvinD
3rd Feb 2018, 08:33
Hmm! Is there more to this than meets the eye? The Facebook messages appear to put this youth in the clear in relation to only one of the charges. There were two complainants, so how does the 2nd get justice?
If either or both complainants were under age, then how does Facebook magic that away? Under age is under age. Full stop. I can imagine the girl fabricating complaints (not saying she did) as a possible defence when tackled by parents over her sexual activity.
The defence seem to have "found" this evidence over a year after the initial charges were brought. Surely, when questioned, the boy would have said something to the effect of "No. We had a regular, consensual relationship. Just check out Facebook". And wouldn't he have pointed to this when talking to his brief?
As for the previous 2 notorious cases, it now emerges there 50 odd thousand lines of text for the investigating officer to analyse in one case and even more than that in the other, so, while not condoning the cock ups, they become a bit more understandable in light of that.

ORAC
3rd Feb 2018, 09:28
Understandable? That’s 100 pages, I can speed read that in a hour or less - and the defence solicitor was able to go through it and extract enough to present to a judge in a single night. And that’s manually without the use of any search engines or word finders.

RAT 5
3rd Feb 2018, 09:55
And the consequence of being expelled from school? That seemed to have been based on a falsehood.What effect has that had on his future?

KelvinD
3rd Feb 2018, 10:20
The expulsion from school seems, at best, very heavy handed. Innocent until proved guilty? I could understand (maybe) if the school had suspended him but expulsion is over the top.
Orac: So you can speed read 100 pages in an hour. Bully for you. How much of that do you properly comprehend? How would you deal with a stream of info that may include subtleties such as oblique references to other messages etc? Don't forget that the person reviewing all that data has to analyse it. And I would imagine a court reviewing that evidence would have taken days poring over it.

ORAC
3rd Feb 2018, 10:24
Well in the previous case discussed the defence was given the data the day before, read it overnight and prepared a case to present to the judge the next morning and the case was dismissed the same day. Which would seem to disprove your assertion.

ORAC
6th Feb 2018, 06:35
Another rape case collapses as lawyers condemn failing system (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/another-rape-case-collapses-as-lawyers-condemn-failing-system-5fwp7wn6s)

The trial of a man accused of rape collapsed yesterday after it was revealed that police had failed to investigate messages which showed that the encounter was a consensual one-night stand.

Christopher Penniall spent 16 months on bail before the prosecution case was dropped on what would have been the opening day of his trial. Judge Christopher Kinch said that the case highlighted the importance of police pursuing lines of inquiry raised by those who have been accused of crimes.

Some of Britain’s leading criminal solicitors and barristers are calling today for Alison Saunders, the director of public prosecutions, to extend the present review into failings by police and prosecutors to disclose evidence. In a letter to The Times, they question why an inquiry by the Crown Prosecution Service and Metropolitan Police into live rape and sexual assault cases, “is not being extended to other kinds of cases that might be equally affected by non-disclosure of material”. In the letter the lawyers say that “the system of disclosure, particularly as it relates to electronic media, has long been unfit for purpose”. They also question whether the inquiry will examine all electronic evidence held by the police......

Woolwich crown court was told that Mr Penniall, 43, from southeast London, co-operated fully with police when he was arrested after the allegations in September 2016. He gave officers his mobile telephone and login details for his Facebook account, which he said contained messages that proved he had consensual sex with the complainant. However, messages deleted by the alleged victim, which supported his account, were downloaded by police from her phone only after requests by defence lawyers two weeks ago, the court was told.

Hugh French, for the prosecution, said that after a review of the downloads, and a fresh interview with the alleged victim, it had been decided to drop the case because there was no longer a realistic prospect of a conviction.

Judge Kinch said that the problems with disclosing evidence useful to defendants was “a big issue that has been thrown sharply into focus”. He praised the prosecutors for dropping the case after the new evidence emerged but questioned why police had not obtained the deleted messages earlier. “This case just highlights the importance of the police pursuing full telephone downloads where they are clearly central to the allegations being made and the defence being made,” he said. He added that the decision to drop the case was an “entirely appropriate and a proper decision . . . made with a diligent assessment of the evidence”.

Chetna Patel, the defence barrister, said outside court: “This case highlights the importance of police pursuing full telephone downloads which are central to the allegations being made.”

skydiver69
6th Feb 2018, 18:41
Some of the failures highlighted in this thread are down to the volumn of info which comes from mobile phones etc but others, such as that highlighted above by Orac, seemingly are down to incompetence or arrogance.

ORAC
3rd Apr 2018, 06:52
Police are ‘trained to hide vital evidence’ (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-are-trained-to-hide-vital-evidence-cnfdbm6jz)

The scale of the failure by police and prosecutors to disclose vital evidence in criminal cases is exposed today in documents showing that such behaviour is routine and deliberate.

A dossier seen by The Times reveals a commonly held view that the defence is not entitled to see all the evidence. It discloses the tactics used to stop it being handed over, with officers in at least one force apparently trained in how to avoid making available material that might undermine their case. The file draws on the reports of 14 focus groups with the police, and others with prosecutors and judges, as well as a survey of prosecutors......

The comments in the dossier include one prosecutor saying: “In even quite serious cases, officers have admitted to deliberately withholding sensitive material from us and they frequently approach us only a week before trial. Officers are reluctant to investigate a defence or take statements that might assist the defence or undermine our case.”

Among the comments from police focus groups was: “If you don’t want the defence to see it, then [evidence] goes on the MG6D” — a reference to the list of sensitive unused material to which the defence does not have access. In another focus group, an inspector noted that police “have been trained to put items on there that they do not want disclosed to the defence”. This tactic was confirmed by prosecutors. One recorded comment was that “officers put undermining material on the MG6D list to hide”.

In one report on focus groups with judges, the inspectors note a judge saying: “There seems to be an idea that the defence is not entitled to see things but where the defence press matters, this yields results.”

Prosecutors are also at fault. Sometimes this is because of what one called a “hugely excessive and complex caseload, insufficient time to do the job, poor-quality and slow digital systems, poor-quality investigation by police [and] wrong prioritising of objectives by the organisation”.

The dossier was obtained by the Centre for Criminal Appeals, a charity, under a freedom of information request to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) Inspectorate and the Inspectorate of Constabulary, which collated the unpublished comments when preparing a joint report on disclosure of evidence last year. It makes clear that the failure to hand over evidence that may undermine the prosecution case is often deliberate........

Terry Dactil
3rd Apr 2018, 08:41
So what action will be taken now against the "victim" for her false allegations?

radeng
3rd Apr 2018, 09:34
Perhaps more to the point, what action will be taken against those police officers responsible who hadn't investigated properly. An order for all court and defence costs to be paid by the police is justified, too.

skydiver69
3rd Apr 2018, 09:40
Police are ‘trained to hide vital evidence’ (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-are-trained-to-hide-vital-evidence-cnfdbm6jz)



I think that someone is deliberately misinterpreting the report to make it look like with holding evidence is a deliberate policy by the police. The info on all the MG6 forms (c/D/E) goes to the CPS which then decide what should or shouldn't be disclosed to the defence so even if something is referred to on the MG6d it would be up to the CPS to decide if it should be disclosed or not, not the police.

radeng
3rd Apr 2018, 09:42
Can the information on the MG6 forms be used in the trial?

skydiver69
3rd Apr 2018, 10:10
Can the information on the MG6 forms be used in the trial?

The info on the MG6 forms consists of unused material so it is info which won't be used in a trial. Typical info on an MG6C could be a custody record for the period the suspect was in police custody, crime report working sheets, custody CCTV showing the suspect walking round the facility etc. The other two forms relate to sensitive material which might assist the defence or undermine the prosecution so previous convictions of witnesses or victims should be recorded there or as has been relevant recently, mobile phone data.

HHornet
3rd Apr 2018, 10:48
Disgraceful. I don't know why she made those allegations. They have ruined a man's life for years. That should not go unpunished.

The real tragedy is that genuine assault cases just got harder to be taken seriously....

I might be simplifying things here.
Why can't both parties have their names surpressed until after the trial.
Then only when a guilty verdict is issued, then guilty party can be named.
If the case falls over prior to trial, then both parties are still unnamed.
Surely this would prevent huge newspaper headlines showing the accused prior to trial.
Any false accuser then does not get any publicity.
And genuine accusers are protected.

sitigeltfel
3rd Apr 2018, 11:13
I think that someone is deliberately misinterpreting the report to make it look like with holding evidence is a deliberate policy by the police. The info on all the MG6 forms (c/D/E) goes to the CPS which then decide what should or shouldn't be disclosed to the defence so even if something is referred to on the MG6d it would be up to the CPS to decide if it should be disclosed or not, not the police.

As the guest of a friend who is a Judge, I sat in on a case in London a few weeks ago. It was his last case before retiring that week and he wanted it to go smoothly.

The defendant was up on three charges regarding fraud and at the beginning of day two the whole case was thrown out because the fact that he had pleaded guilty to the first of the charges hadn't been disclosed to the jury.
Half a day was then wasted by the CPS and defendants barristers arguing over interpretations of the relevant sections in Archbold's and Blackstone's law books.

The first charge was linked to the second one and the Judge ruled the case couldn't go any further because of this.
One very cross Judge, two barristers with fleas in their ears and an extra bill for the taxpayer for a new trial rescheduled for May!

As the jury were out while the arguments were taking place, they probably still don't have a clue as to why they were shuttled in and out of the court, before being dismissed.