Ryanair to recognise Unions

[Arfur Dent]

Announcement today caused entirely by the threat of strikes in Ireland, Portugal and some other EU states, that Ryanair has agreed to recognise Unions in those countries and has also invited UK's BALPA to attend meetings to discuss "terms and conditions".
This from the LCC famous for its' boss M O'L saying only a couple of weeks ago the "Hell would freeze over" before he acknowledged any "aviation professional's" right to Industrial representation.
Described by the COO on the radio this morning as an "evolution of the business model" whereby "Aviation Professionals" (not "Pilots") should be recognised for the "contribution they make to the business".
As Traf has said many times, stupid, small minded, spiteful snipes at CX's "aviation professionals" can reap huge penalties in terms of fuel usage, OTP etc. Far bigger than the perceived "savings" announced by the bean counters and their puppets.
The worm is turning and the hell of Cathay Pacific is about to freeze over. Good Luck all………

[BlunderBus]

....but not dignity or human rights!

[Trafalgar]

Surely we, as a group need to recognise that the advantage is finally with the pilot profession, due an exponentially increasing pilot shortage. It is reaching critical levels all over the world. Although CX recruiting loves to deny it, they are having great trouble filling courses in ADL, and the resignation rate has now reached alarming levels. The entire middle section of our seniority list is looking for new employers (approx 2000 of our 3500 pilots). We need to press home our advantage. The AOA needs to immediately withdraw any proposal for concessions (i've just contributed 8% of my income, and also not to mention the other few % I would have had if the TA had gone through, which I voted against fyi). Instead of concessions, we need to double down on the CC and TB aspects. Time for T and C to resign enmasse, and for us to implement every single aspect of CC available to us. We shold also be informing the HK press that due to crewing issues, the schedule over the holidays is in question (and it had better be). Time to go on the offensive. I'm sick of being pushed around by interloping managers who only care about their bonus and their next Swire position in an unrelated company.

[Trafalgar]

Ryanair seeks to avert Christmas strikes by offering to recognise unions for first time (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/15/ryanair-seeks-avert-christmas-strikes-offering-recognise-unions/)

[raven11]

It’s too bad that being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the twenty first century is the watershed moment for some people...

A confrontational and arrogant management has finally been defeated at Ryan Air....we can only hope that there are lessons learned by everyone in the airline industry.

[mngmt mole]

Ryanair pilots threatened a strike. They are now getting a better contract. Us ? Only with action comes results. Every CX pilot must take responsibility for our profession and careers.

[BusyB]

I don't believe Ryanair will concede any thing of value unless they still strike. At present its all talk to get them to call off action.

[Landflap]

MOL has agreed to "talks" on the very first day of proposed strike. He has "offered" to recognise Unions ( in order to "avert" strike). C'mon fellas, so blinded by your distaste for your current Management, you are failing to see how a really good manipulator works. Count yourselves very fortunate that MOL is not in your chair.

[checklistcomplete]

Co-ordinated action and a united pilot force has made O'L backtrack. Loosing Xmas passengers is too big a risk even for that loudmouth and would damage the share price.
CNY is our Xmas and a unified show by CX pilots would get the same results.

[Rated De]

What staggers me is that people of any company persuasion lack even a modicum of resistance.

I have seen it in numerous airlines of numerous cultures. I must add even seen it in other industries; rarely does organised labour even try to pull the curtain back, they just fold.

My only plausible alternative to all the well meaning people is that the union movement is inside the tent and insiders never work for the outside..

[Trafalgar]

It really isn't that complicated. It's like the definition of "Insanity" (doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome). We (the collective 'we', including the AOA) have always done the 'same' thing, that is: showing weakness and submitting to bullying. Now, almost 25 years after the beginning of that era, we witness the collapse of the career of 'pilot' at CX. So, that being the case, can anyone still employed here as a pilot (less and less by the week) seriously advocate 'negotiation' and 'compromise' and 'concession'?? I might add that CX has just sent a message that they have no respect for their Captains (who still are showing up for work each day, brilliant way to show them how upset you are), and are now effectively instituting a 'D' scale. I think that without an immediate and forceful change of 'relationship' with our management (ie: the flu season is here), there is only one conclusion to reach: the pilots are insane, as they just keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Each one of you should be quietly encouraging your close peers to commit to action. Each one of you should be sending the message to CX that you will either have a proper career here, or you will have one elsewhere. At the moment, the majority of you don't deserve a proper career here, because you won't fight for it. Even more pathetically, most of you are content to let a small minority do the fighting for you. That will only ensure a loss for all.

We are now into the holiday season. CX is desperately hoping and bluffing to get them through that period without operational chaos. The ONLY reason you are reading articles about RyanAir is because THEIR pilots finally had enough and were bold enough to TAKE ACTION. What about YOU. Just asking....

[flyhardmo]

Well said trafalgar especially the second last paragraph.:D

[Tea time]

Traf ,
I hate to say it but CX pilots don’t have the guts to do what Ryanair have done and achieved . The sad part is that a large number of the pilots come from military backgrounds . I would not want to go into battle with someone who is not even prepared to make a stand to defend their career .
I just don’t get it , aren’t the Captains angry enough to actually take some action .if there was a concerted down tools on Mon Wed Fri until all,the issues had been corrected it would be over in a week or two and there would be a new DFO .
Alas this spineless bunch will achieve nothing except the degradation of their careers

[checklistcomplete]

Tea time

It would be over in 24 hours.

[McNulty]

So curtain rod,

Ryanair guys are not tough and manly and gutsy despite just overthrowing a totalitarian dictatorship which has caused a constant downward spiral for T&C throughout the industry for the last couple of decades ? All because they haven't been made property millionaires by their employer like some cx pilots ?

Interesting logic there.

[TriJetFlying]

CR, you’ve nailed it.

Mc, CR clearly spelt it out about the Ryan guys. Allow me to put it more simply. Ryan crews have zero to lose....

[172_driver]

Oh gawd... how good and warm you make your Ryanair colleagues feel with your empathic comments. :rolleyes:

I am sure they wish you all the best too.

[Trafalgar]

CR. Your point is a valid one. However, in any human endeavour to overcome tyranny, ultimately that involves risk, and not just wishful thinking. I have taken personal risk to fight, and I do have something to lose (mortgage, several years left to work if I so choose). I have concluded however that I can't send my flying days being treated in such a selfish and self-serving and deceitful fashion as is being imposed by the Swire's. Our profession deserves better. The reality is that there is really no choice: either we fight for what is right with the chance of victory, or we stay on our knees and see every vestige of value stripped away from our careers. I'd rather take on risk than acquiesce to that indignity and humiliation.

[Killaroo]

Yesterday, the Irish Independent first revealed the content of last Thursday's meeting, as Mr Bellew and Ryanair's chief people officer, Eddie Wilson, unmasked a broken culture and creaking operations that had been key ingredients in the genesis of the airline's September pilot-rostering fiasco.

"Part of the problem is that some of the people who were doing these jobs in the past, there was no training whatsoever," Mr Bellew admitted during the meeting.

He admitted that some of the airline's administrative staff saw it as their job to give pilots "a hard time".

I tend to think this is an industry wide problem!

https://www.independent.ie (https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/we-need-to-change-the-tone-dramatically-ryanair-vows-to-make-airline-a-pleasant-place-to-work-36423574.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=IN:Daily&hConversionEventId=AQEAAZQF2gAmdjQwMDAwMDE2MC03MjRlLTk2ZTctY mE4OS1kZDE2M2VkMGFiODHaACQxZjlhMWNkYS01MGI1LTQ1YzAtMDAwMC0wM jFlZjNhMGJjY2TaACQ3M2NhNTJkMy01ODFiLTRmZDUtYmNiMi0zYTU5YjNjO TI3NTgwiVG2IwQko_C5lohd6JvwOj4OJl-_mfIhkjtBFZOEpw)

[172_driver]

You missed the point again: When you have a lot less to lose (them, cabin crew, HKPA iCadets, burger flippers) and nothing holding you back from changing to another low wage career switch, going on strike is a pretty easy choice for fighting the tyranny.

I missed nothing. I got the point, and I agree with the notion that the less you’ve got to loose the easier it is to take action. What I don’t agree with is that you think Ryanair crew hasn’t got anything to loose. You don’t think Ryanair crew has a mortgage to pay? You think the government will take care of that? Think again...

If you lost your job, what’s stopping you from moving back to the UK (or wherever) to pick up a job with one of those 100 low-cost airlines? It ain’t much different from moving across Europe with wife and kids to start all over. Or you commute, which is painful in itself...

I don’t pretend to fully understand your circumstances, then show the Ryanair pilots some respect and salute them for putting their asses on the line. Fortunately, and I think this is the big breaker, they’re supported by labor rights which makes it very hard for MOL to get at them. Collectively, they just hadn’t realized that before.

[checklistcomplete]

20 plus years ago, senior management held a series of "commitment days" for pilots. Over a period of weeks EVERY CX pilot in groups of 100 or so ( the airline was much smaller then ) were invited to lunch at the Island Cricket Club and during the lunch we were told by senior management how the airline was to change. It was being re-branded and our commitment to the future was essential. Then a very professional video was shown. Employees from every corner of the company ( with the exception of the pilots ) were seen praising the company, how good an employer it was, blah blah blah. Every third interview had a secretary or check in staff member ask " but why do we pay our pilots so much ?" and "why do they get such huge housing payments ?".
The CEO at the time was Lynas Chung and he attended every lunch and fielded questions afterwards. I was there and I asked "why have you allowed those comments to be in the video ? It paints us pilots as elitist ?" He answered "Oh that was a mistake ". Mistake my arse. It was the start of a deliberate indoctrination to all other CX staff against the pilot body. This was 20 plus years ago and the rot set in from then.

As for Lynas Chung. He was the great local hope for the airline. He conceived the "Commitment Day " programme and within 3 months dumped the airline and left to run what was then Hong Kong Telecom, now PCCW.

Undermining the pilots has been part of the Swire mentality for 25 years. They hate us and persuaded most of the other employees to do the same. The tide turned against the pilots and the "cannot mentality" set in amongst office and ground staff. It continues today and the recent 13th month issue is just one of a long list of actions deliberately done to "get the pilots".

Ryanair management has admitted they had a similar plan. It has back fired on them and will do the same to Swires if we stick together.

[Freehills]

Linus was never CEO.

[Trafalgar]

checklist is correct (other than the LC designation). The company management have an institutional envy and dislike towards the pilots. For almost 25 yrs they have been set against us, and have degraded this profession in HK to that of a 'pig with lipstick' airline, barely above LCC status. If any of you think that soothing words from RH or AT are going to make a blind bit of difference to their attack on us, then please, light up another one and draw deep. The only thing standing between them and ultimate career oblivion is you, and only you as individuals finding your character, courage and spine to stand up to them, now. It will be too late tomorrow. If they don't hurt, and hurt badly over this coming holiday season, then the game is over. Everyone might as well make solid plans to find a new employer, because this job will not be worth keeping. You will waste the years of your career being frustrated, angry, fearful and hopeless. Don't let that happen. Stand up NOW for your career and your right to proper pay and conditions. This is HK for pete's sake, the most expensive city in the world and our management think we shouldn't have the means to live properly in it. Ridiculous (and worth pointing out that they don't expect the same sacrifices of themselves. Hypocrites). It's flu season. Enough said. :ugh:

[Tea time]

Curtain rod , you are correct with a lot of what you say , however this airline has never had a cohesive pilot body and that’s what the management has been playing on for years . When you get thumped by the schoolyard bully every time you cross the playing field you have 3 choices. Change schools , accept the bruises and humiliation , or take action yourself and fight back .
So I have to commend Ryanair pilots for their stance , it took guts and their management blinked, yet our lot won’t even take a position and fight back aside from a few noteworthy individuals what hope is there ?

[Flaender]

Just ask our first casualty about whether he now thinks his efforst were worthwhile...


I looked him straight in the eyes and asked him that exact question.
His answer: "Absolutely".
But I'll ask him again in a few months if things don't work out as planned.
The worst you can do to him is let his efforts be in vain, so please don't be defeatist and step it up.

I've always said that people paying for their typerating got us into this mess.
Turns out that those same people might (start to) get us out of it too.
Well done to the Ryanair pilots!

[Cpt. Underpants]

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-5199347/amp/Three-months-shook-Ryanair-How-cancellations-sparked-pilot-revolt.html

This headline could be re-written as "How an arrogant, hired in consultant sparked a revolution at Cathay Pacific"

[Cpt. Underpants]

Linus was never CEO.

Take a look at Linus' bio on Wiki. If ever anyone had written their own, self-aggrandizing bio, it's that one. It reads like "Mein Kampf" with references to his "arduous" struggle and living on sub standard wages and his self-taught ability to speak fluent Putonghua "for three hours".

It reads like a padded CV...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Cheung

[Trafalgar]

And this is the standard of individual that rises to the 'leadership' role in this airline (and note, none of todays 'leaders' are any better). And any of you doubt the final doomed outcome of CX?

[Roger Greendeck]

I'm really pleased that the Ryanair pilots have had a win in that management have agreed to talk to their unions. But let's not get too excited and make it seem something it's not. CX has been talking to the AOA for years so Ryanair pilots have only just got something CX pilots have had for a very long time.

CR's assessment of the different situation of the two pilots groups is very accurate. Wishing away the difficulties does not change reality. CX pilots have to be totally realistic about whet leverage exists and what does not. Relying on leverage that doesn't exist and more importantly management knows does not exist will only result in disappointment and bitterness, not an improvement in conditions.

[checklistcomplete]

The German boys at Ryanair are still "stopping" today for 4 hours just to show they are serious.