Primera Air A320neo

[future G-V driver]

Hi, is anyone else joining Primera Air A320neo operation January 8th OCC at LGW

I believe this is the first A320 Course. I have absolutely no info about the Course, no location in LGW, not sure how many days the Course lasts, which hotel to be used, which Sim's, in short nothing.

Anyone else out there on this Course please, and can fill in the blanks ?

(I am A320 T/R, DEC, TRI, 23,000 flight hours, 2,000 NAT crossings)

Thanks in advance, feel free to PM me.

[safelife]

Why would someone with such a good profile join such a shabby outfit?

[TheMightyAtom]

Maybe he didn't have enough NAT crossings for a different company.

[thetimesreader84]

Maybe he was made unemployed by some shabby venture capitalists and is trying to keep a roof over his families head?

[FlightDetent]

Maybe 9k /m with base in the backyard is acceptable?

[KyleRB]

I thought the first course was on 23 January for type rated joiners!

[trancada]

Dates for the next ones?
How is the interview?

[gnarlberg]

23.01
07.02
21.02
07.03
21.03

interview was good

[Sucram]

Do you think they be interested in someone who’s Airbus rating was expired but has over 10,000 hours PIC on Airbus or are they only taking current Airbus guys?

[ASkipper]

Anyone else joining Primera‘s Airbus fleet?

[Job Knockey]

They only take the best then.

[student88]

Is there anything legitimate about this thread? Something stinks!

[future G-V driver]

Hi, I started the thread in good faith............. I cannot be responsible for some of the 'replies'

[CaptainProp]

So what are the T&Cs they’ve offered? Basic pay, sector pay or similar, guaranteed number of days off etc?

[gnarlberg]

7 days off in a row, + 3 days off.

Basic Pay+ overtime pay. overtime >50h.
4900gbp roundabout if you join with 1000h a320

[FlightDetent]

My data is mid-OCT, figures for a good month

junior PIC 6800 GBP
veteran PIC 9500 GBP

F/O ranges 5k - 5,9k

28 paid HOL/y
roster 23/7 (2+2+2+1)
basic insurance package

[CaptainProp]

Terrible roster.

Those figures are pre-tax I presume?

[future G-V driver]

I am advised we will be operating a 'W' pattern.

ex STN-EWR night stop.

EWR-BHX n/s

BHX-BOS n/s

BOS -STN (total 6 days on duty, expect 7 days off)

Basic pay depends on experience/Command hours

Hope that helps

[gnarlberg]

if thats really a W roster, it should be good for commuting :) and for those 6 nights in London ill take a hotel or something...

[Luibar]

I am advised we will be operating a 'W' pattern.

Will it be the "standard" roster arrangement? And you'll get always 7 days off?

If so, thats great for commuting :ok:

By the way, which bases are available?

[CaptainProp]

I doubt you’ll get to do 3 x 9-10 hour duties in 6 days and then have 7 days off. I’m guessing they’ll have you do those 6 duty days, then give you 2 days off before you are back on the road again.

[future G-V driver]

Whilst this is a primarily LH operation, you cannot work too hard.

STN-EWR-STN is basically 15+ hours and 3 days work.

Lets assume 5 EWR/BOS pm = 75-78 hours (O/T paid after 50 hours)

and 15 days work

There are some short haul flights (very sensibly upping the daily utilisation) out of BHX and STN, add a few of those and we get 18 days work, and 40 hours O/T @ £90 hour =£3600 and 12 days off pm.

Whilst not perfect, it is pretty good.

[Thad Jarvis]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what Primera is. A quick google search should reveal all. They will temporarily benefit from a few ex-Monarch guys who are willing to take a massive pay cut to stay at BHX but in time they'll grow weary and drift away, assuming Primera doesn't melt down first.

[Sickyspider]

I’m ex Monarch and I’ve accepted a job offer because I have bills to pay and a roof to keep over my head. I know of a few of my former Birmingham and Luton colleagues who are also joining. Yes there was no sim but neither was there one at WOW and a few ex Mon guys/gals are already there. Red eyes will make a change from getting up at 0300 to do run of killer earlies!

I have no idea if it’s going to work out but prepared to give it a go if it keeps me closer to home.

[Flying Torquewrench]

During the interview they said that the roster would look like this:

MON STN-EWR
TUE. EWR-CDG
WED R/D
THU CDG-EWR
FRI. EWR-STN
Arriving back in STN on SAT at 10am.

Than you have Sunday off and Monday afternoon you start again. This repeats itself over your three weeks on and at the end you have 7 days off. They were planning on doing 4 Atlantic crossings a week and 12 in your 3 week on block.

Personally I have declined their offer as 3 days at home in three weeks is just not enough. Especially after a week of night duties.

[Luibar]

4 Atlantic crossings in 5 or 6 days is tough, not to mention you'll be doing it for 3 weeks with 48 hours break...

[Luibar]

If they manage to "survive" for 1 or 2 years... :sad:

[KyleRB]

The roster looks knackering and is not sustainable. If management don’t work that out, anyone who joins will do a year then leave! Let’s hope as a new longhaul start up they learn quickly otherwise the project will not last.

Where does any planned standby fit in to the roster?

[future G-V driver]

Some of these projections do not add up. 12 NAT pm equals approx 95 hours pm, or 1056 hours in 11 months (1 months Leave) plus who will fly the SH operation ? also the Contract states O/T after 50 hours, so 95 hours = 45 hours O/T = £ 4,000 for a Captain, plus Trainers will be paid £135 per Sector = £1620 plus £200 per Sim Session (also attracts O/T I am advised)

However nobody wants to fly 6 or 7 return NAT's in 31 day Roster............ regardless of the O/T

I think it much more likely, if crewed adequately, a normal Roster will be 5 NAT plus a couple of SH sectors plus STBY

But be aware of only 60% Pay during Training, until Line Checked, first a/c arrives 20th March, L/T starts early April, so anyone on an early course might be on 60% salary for 3-4 months.

There are better Gigs out there, Primera need to up their game right now, before people don't even bother turning up on the Course....... there are far far better jobs out there.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Shorthaul out of BHX will also be on a B737. During the interview there was no mention of any shorthaul to be operated by the Airbus. However that does not mean that it will never happen.

[CaptainProp]

These rosters and rotations are unsustainable.

Good luck to those who decided to try it out.

[KyleRB]

It sounds like it hasn’t really been thought out properly (unless there’s a plan we are not aware of). I’m guessing once it all starts they’ll be trying out a few different options to make the FTLs work and also crew utilisation. Suspect they will push the crews as far as possible until they vote with their feet. Let’s hope T&Cs improve when push comes to shove. The Monarch guys who are taking this job will get their sampling of longhaul and then scoot off to pastures new when it all becomes a bit too much! Good luck indeed!

[Alloy]

Being ex ZB 320/(330) I can’t say this roster appeals at all. When you look at the fatigue side long term wise this pattern as described above does not look sustainable.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I agree with fGVd. The roster does not add up. I just pulled down the schedule from the website and plotted it in Excel. They need to offer 3 additional days off per month to make this a 900 hour per year gig (on top of annual leave). However I suspect they will convert some of the duties at home and down route into standbys thereby not impacting your annual limit but still screwing you over for time at home (if the standby is down route) B

Smooth - you a wannbee rosterer or Pilot?
Airlines need standby's yes I know Pilots don't like them particularly if commuting so my answer is;
1/ Live in STN
2/ Don't join

[Mr Angry from Purley]

On the other hand, if he's right and the Airbus are going to be sitting around doing nothing during the day then it makes sense for them to change the flight times completely in order to avoid so much night flying. Depart at noon instead.

Smooth again - are you now a wannabee Commercial Manager rather than a rosterer come Pilot?
Ever heard of something called a slot? STN problematical. EWR Difficult, CDG no idea.
If you want to depart at noon suggest you need a different career it's a start up not a holiday camp

[Crosswind Limits]

Well said Mr Angry!

Monarch was a good airline with decent T&Cs but this is the brave new world and some of my former colleagues need to realise this and stop offering advice based on the good old days! Primera is a start up with lots of things to iron out. I’m sure they are serious about making it a success! If you don’t like the set up don’t join! The Airbus CP recently joined from WOW so he’s learning too so at least cut him some slack!

I have 2 offers on the table but one is for fast track command on a turboprop and the other one is Primera! The flying could be interesting but issues need to be resolved! I want to stay on the Bus if I can.

[future G-V driver]

Thanks for your efforts SA.

The closer I look at this, the more I think what might be much better is.

2 x back to back NAT = 6 days work and approx 30 hours flying, then 4 days off.

Next day on STBY, followed by 2 x back to back NAT = 6 days work and approx 30 hours flying, then 4 days off.

Next day on STBY, followed by 2 x back to back NAT = 6 days work and approx 30 hours flying, then 4 days off.

Approx 31/32 days and 90 hours flying (40 hours O/T) 12 Sectors.

Take time out for Recurrent Training, SEP, etc etc and you will just about hit 900 hours. However which ever way you look at this, it IS HARD WORK.

MCO, ORD etc planned for the 321neo LR, pushing up the Sector length and annual hours flown.

Note also, all flights arriving in the USA/Canada arrive too late for a beer and burger, which rather spoils the whole experience

This might or might not be an easier existence than EZJ, less sectors, but much more jet lag...........

The T&C are far less than EZJ.

[Thad Jarvis]

Primera is not a start up..it has been exploiting pay to fly for a while now in Europe. Its UK bases are the only ground breaker. MON did not fail because their crews were paid fairly. They were paid roughly in comparison with EZY. Easyjet can make barrels of cash and still pay their crews a decent wage so what's Primera's excuse? If your business model revolves around paying your staff buttons you don't deserve to succeed.

[randon]

I don't think the a320 NEO can perform these mentioned transatlantic flights with a decent payload. I guess they are counting with the a321 neo LR, wich first unities will be delivered only in 2019...

[KyleRB]

In Primera’s defence they are planning to use A321 NEOs with the 2 additional centre tanks. Why this thread title refers 320 NEOs I have no idea! According to Airbus, the 321s should make Europe to East Coast America (westbound) with realistic loads and winds. However, they may occasionally get caught out with stronger winds and capped levels when crossing which may involve having to reduce loads in anticipation pre departure.

When the 321 LR arrives in 2019, they plan to push the routes a little further.

[future G-V driver]

Gosh I am sorry I misquoted the exact a/c type.

As you say, why oh why did I quote 320 rather than 321neo, answer - maybe the question I posed was more about details of the Joining, OCC, Rostering etc, rather than which exact MSN the airline may or may not operate.

BTW you state 2 extra CWT, are you sure it is not 3 ?

Who cares, I am trying to find out info of a non tech nature.

Can we get back on topic and leave the Spotters to Spotting.

Rant over. Thank you.

[thetimesreader84]

To be a little bit centrist in this argument - quite a few people pick up interview tips / company background etc on their chosen company from these forums, and going into an interview and talking (wrongly) about how Primera’s new A320 Service will be A Very Good thing, could be the difference between getting the job and not.

That said, there’s no need to be a :mad: about a simple mistake.

[future G-V driver]

Morning, has anyone received the Welcome Letter, detailing the Course ? I have not.

[ASkipper]

Good afternoon, same here ... no letter whatsoever.

[EIFFS]

They will need deep pockets to make this work, I have done plenty of NATS with our lot and you are leaving the USA late evening at around 02:00Z with your body clock still in the UK meaning sleep prior to flight is difficult to achieve East bound.

Anyone considering this should put all times in Z think about what time you land locally in the USA do you eat have a beer then go to bed or go to bed and wake up Z time per your body clock? at say 8:00Z (03:00L) what i can say is that you will regularly be awake 20+ hours on the return trip and trying to go sleep during the day before your next trip will be a huge challenge, but worry not sleep with not be an issue when you get to your 7 days off assuming you live long enough on the drive home!!

I think you should plan on 3-4 days REST before you’ll feel half human again after which 5 earlier duties will seem like the good life you used to have, personally stop overs of less 24 hours should not be allowed, you’ll be back in the seat after what 18 -20 hours, legal but?

[future G-V driver]

Hi, I agree with your comments re the proposed Rostering, Jet Lag, Fatigue.

It is up to the Guys and Girls on the early Courses to effect change, but I agree, the 6 days on, 2 days off, 6 days on, 1 day off, 6 days on, 7 days off is not sustainable and careful negotiation needs to be undertaken, otherwise in this Market people will just 'Vote with their Feet'

A 6/4, 6/4 and 6/4 Roster is one possible alternative, a much better spread of work/off days. Easier for the Commuter etc.

NIL extra cost to the Airline, happier workforce. = A positive result

[Paper Lad]

I applied a couple of weeks ago and was invited for the Skype 'meeting' where I asked about the possibility of flexible working (part time/life style roster/fixed roster pattern....call it what you like). I haven't heard a peep out of them since!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

EIFFS
personally stop overs of less 24 hours should not be allowed
Are you and future GV driver from the same house?
Yes it would be nice to leave at lunch time yes it would be nice to have a 48hr layover in the USA. You might want to ask what other AOC's have 48hr layovers in the East Coast USA...
And then if you don't like 24hr stopovers what about the stop in-between in Europe? Maybe don't do back to backs but then the "commuters" won't be happy...

[Iver]

A lot of expansion planned:

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/62923-primera-air-mulls-new-long-haul-destinations

They will need a lot of pilots if this comes to fruition...

[EIFFS]

Dear Mr Angry

Just look at the roster and calculate how many European local nights sleeps you’ll be deprived of, this isn’t really long haul, but long distance short haul, yes Norwegian do flights this long or longer between LPA & North Norway but you don’t have a 5 hour time shift, you even notice a 2 hour shift if you operating up Finland from LPA.

I don’t think anyone expects Hollywood roster patterns and it’s not about that, but going from Monarchs 2 sector home every night pattern to having more nights away a month than you spend in your home bed will be brutal, your partner will expect TLC when you get back you won’t be able to speak or want to.

Most wont be able to do this for more than 6 months, money good or bad is irrelevant.

[Uplinker]

A word of warning if I may:

For a previous employer many years’ ago, I did 870 hours in the last year that I worked for them, and a lot of that was 6-on 2-off.

My commute was the max allowed admittedly, but towards the end of that last year I was like a zombie - and my duties back then did not include any time zone shifts.

Please be careful folks; aviation is not worth sacrificing your health or your family life for. I am not saying this will be the case with the employer in question - but trust me as one who has worked similar sounding rosters; it really isn’t worth it.

[Cak]

It’s not Danish/Latvian style, but French....finding a problem for every solution :)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

EIFFS

Just look at the roster and calculate how many European local nights sleeps you’ll be deprived of, this isn’t really long haul, but long distance short haul, yes Norwegian do flights this long or longer between LPA & North Norway but you don’t have a 5 hour time shift, you even notice a 2 hour shift if you operating up Finland from LPA.

I don’t think anyone expects Hollywood roster patterns and it’s not about that, but going from Monarchs 2 sector home every night pattern to having more nights away a month than you spend in your home bed will be brutal, your partner will expect TLC when you get back you won’t be able to speak or want to.

Well don't bother applying then!
If you're ex Monarch then sit and wait for the good old days to return (I can't believe you are)

[EIFFS]

Happy with the Red nose job thanks, but I know it's cost us a fortune and some to get long haul off the ground and even with 3 years experience of 787 ops our narrow body Atlantic craic has been hugely expensive and very management time consuming to become established, i do hope Primera have got very deep pockets for when things go wrong as they will, just check out BOS weather tonight

[rouelan]

Thanks for your efforts SA.

The closer I look at this, the more I think what might be much better is.

2 x back to back NAT = 6 days work and approx 30 hours flying, then 4 days off.



Yes, I dont think roster proposed by SA is compliant.

https://understandingeasa2016ftl.wordpress.com/easa-ftl/cs-ftl/cs-ftl-1-235-rest-periods/

A minimum of 3 nights should be positionned after the 2 NAT

[renort]

The irony is that in the dying days of Monarch, the owners planned to sell off the family silver (slots) and start a low cost longhaul airline operating the MAXs on just such routes and no doubt rostered in a very similar way.

[Crosswind Limits]

This is a very true - ironic indeed!

The first course started today.

[macdo]

And, as I observed the leftovers of a Primera annotated lunch, they appear to be feeding you while at the sim facility! Posh bikkies too.
You'll need all the carbs you can get to do the roster patterns suggested above.

[GKOC41]

Rouelan

2 days off = 3 local nights

[flyingmed]

At what point does a regulator step in and put an end to this downward spiral. The proposed roster sets a dangerous precedent as other airlines will surely try and follow.
“Once you get past 16 hours of being awake, that’s when we start to see mental deterioration and physiological deterioration in the body,” Walker says.

“We know that after you’ve been awake for 19 or 20 hours, your mental capacity is so impaired that you would be as deficient as someone who was legally drunk behind the wheel of a car.

“Wakefulness essentially is low-level brain damage.”

https://www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/health/watch-shocking-video-reveals-sleep-deprivation-effects-12700764

[CaptainProp]

At what point does a regulator step in and put an end to this downward spiral.

Never, unless there is a smoking hole in the ground or the political pressure becomes strong enough. As most politicians are in the hands of major corporations and investors the “political pressure” option is not gonna happen. That leaves smoking hole in the ground as only possible turning point. Thinking anything else would be very naive.

[RHINO]

Agreed....and when the smoking hole comes who do you think will get the blame....

[CaptainProp]

Of course, the crew is responsible for managing their rest and the roster that’s been produced within the legal framework of current FTLs.

No one said it was going to be fair.

The question is, do you want to put yourself in a situations where it may be “impossible” to manage rest and where you could regularly find yourself walking the line? Having said that, we still don’t know exactly how the rosters will end up looking. So for those who are seeing this as a possible future job it’s perhaps best to wait a bit and see how things unfold? There’s quite a big competition out there for experienced crew at the moment so it will be interesting to see where the balance for attracting enough crew will be.

[KyleRB]

Couldn’t agree more! Give them a chance instead of sitting in judgement, after all they are just like the rest of us who want to fly safely and come home to our families!

Also heard through the grapevine that new joiners have so far been quite impressed with the training and set up. As I’m sure they know, big challenges lie ahead! Good luck to ‘em! :ok:

[rog747]

where has this trend come from that we now send convoys of bucket and spade type design cram them in small jets on basically ultra long short haul flights?

beggars belief that joe public after 40 years of Jumbos and big planes we all suddenly seem so bloody happy to get on something that normally takes us to sunny spain

i don't get the retrograde market forces

[KyleRB]

757s been doing it for years!

[rog747]

yes i know - i was with MON/OM for years - and also dealt with AE 757 long haul ops

757 was a different beast performance and power wise -

still stopped at BGR and BAH though for a nice night stop and got a week in the Maldives lol

[KyleRB]

Do you have technical expertise to state categorically that the new A321neo and specifically the LR version will be “that” much different to a stock 757??

[CaptainProp]

The 321neo LR will have 4000 nm range, MTOW increased to 97 tons and cabin configurations for up to 240 passengers.

[oceancrosser]

Yes but it will never carry 240 pax anywhere near that distance.

[Iver]

Will Primera receive the LR version initially or regular 321 NEO?

[CaptainProp]

NEO first as far as I understand. The LR will launch with Air Transat in 2019 I think.

[CaptainProp]

Yes but it will never carry 240 pax anywhere near that distance.

Well I think the problem will actually be (?) luggage space for 240 pax, not fuel / range, at least not for companies wanting to fly London/Paris etc to US east coast.

Don’t forget, when comparing to the 757, the 321LR will do the same range as the 757 but with about 30% less fuel and they have similar MTOW. Less fuel - less weight - more payload.

Having said that I have not looked in to any official airbus graphs for exact range @ specific weights so I don’t know for sure what max range will be at MTOW.

[Lolo75020]

CDG-YYZ is about 3300N and is the longest route as far as I know.
With head wind (25kt), it will be around 3500 NAM which is the max range claimed by airbus on the neo.

So I guess that the max payload (200pax on their neo and max payload below 20t) might be possible almost every time except on partilar days on this route.

[Fire and brimstone]

There is a pay-your-money-and -take-your-choice element here.

I do grow tired of well intentioned threads, that are savaged attack any operator other than the 'established' ones.

Yes - lifestyle and money is VERY important, but people do need jobs, and I personally welcome competition and variety in the market.

Surely it is good to have more than just 'BA, Ryanair and EZY' as employers??

Give them a chance!

It's not like the other three are anything like perfect to work for, is it?

[rog747]

iirc my memory serves me that the MTOW for a 757-200 etops was 115 tonnes

i think someone here mentions that the 321neoLR is about 97 tonnes with 3 LR tanks fitted - which will no doubt reduce baggage space

still dont think you can pitch a stretched and multi mega tweaked A320/321 with a 757 any day of the week

[CaptainProp]

Primera A321noe LR (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whrhWgou2cQ&feature=youtu.be)

So it looks like they will have a 198 seat cabin, 16 premium and 182 economy. With either of the two new engine choices, LR tanks and 198 pax configuration I think airlines might actually be able to get 4000nm out of the aircraft and still get all bags on board, possibly not in containers though.

For a long time (not sure if it is the case anymore) the longest 757W route operated was United's NY - Berlin service and this could not be operated with max payload.

iirc my memory serves me that the MTOW for a 757-200 etops was 115 tonnes

That could very well be, but I suspect a lot of that is extra fuel, when compared to the 321LR, that's no longer required to fly the same distance?

Anyway, lots of guessing at this stage as I don't have any official airbus documentation or performance information for the 321neo LR. It will be interesting to see how it will perform though, once in service. I guess Norwegian is also planning on similar routes for their 321neo LRs?

[USERNAME_]

Any more info regarding contracts, rosters etc as cabin crew are too being very left out of the loop here :ugh:

[Thad Jarvis]

Meanwhile in the real world Norwegian cuts more transatlantic 737 Max services

[EIFFS]

But increase frequency from SNN

Hartford was never that popular ditto Bergen

[USERNAME_]

Anybody able to shed any light on the rumours of the operation getting delayed, possibly due to aircraft delivery delays?

[CaptainProp]

Primera's first 321LR completed maiden flight today.

[gnarlberg]

anybody willing to share his experience from OCC?

would appreciate if you contact me to give some infos before i start..

Thanks !

[USERNAME_]

Primera's first 321LR completed maiden flight today.



How do you know that?

[CaptainProp]

News release both from airbus and Primera.

[CaptainProp]

Reading elsewhere on forums that they are cancelling some previously announced new routes and pulling back on frequencies on others.

[MD80rookie]

How are things progressing from a pilot perspective? Anyone joining, quitting, applying?

[CaptainProp]

First airbus handover in about a month.

CP

[CaptainProp]

Refreshing thread. First airbus delivered.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/66289-primera-air-scandinavia-adds-first-a321neo

30 more 321s and 737s to follow.

http://newsroom.aviator.aero/primera-air-plans-to-set-up-more-bases-and-fly-eastward/

CP

[CaptainProp]

Any news here? Just did a random check for flight STN-EWR return in premium and got offer for £931. Not bad actually!

CP

[SpGo]

Any news here? Just did a random check for flight STN-EWR return in premium and got offer for £931. Not bad actually!

CP
Quite expensive actually, BA has many premium returns for 650.

[45989]

Amazing the way you people chase around bottom feeder jobs.You are killing your own industry but clearly cant see what you are doing

[CaptainProp]

Quite expensive actually, BA has many premium returns for 650.

I just checked BA, same dates, premium econ, from LHR and returning to LGW (cheapest I could find) £1,865.61.

Amazing the way you people chase around bottom feeder jobs.You are killing your own industry but clearly cant see what you are doing

For myself I'm just very interested in how they'll do with the narrow bodies on LH routes to the US and elsewhere as I think this development could really change the entire travel industry in a way that a lot of people still haven't really understood. Norwegian next with A321LRs from mainland Europe in Q1 2019. Watch this space.

CP

[FlyTCI]

One man's bottom feeder job can be another's perfect job. It depends on circumstances. As part of your conclusion, what else do you consider above money? Location/base? (i.e. a job that doesn't require you to commute or move house). Opportunity? (maybe a chance to get involved in something your previous airline didn't let you due seniority). A different kind of flying experience? (flying ETOPS A321 is pretty unique after all). If all these things line up they are surely more valuable than an additional €500 (€300 after tax) per month!
If it were a matter of a €500 difference or so between the lower and upper end then no big deal. But as we all know not the case, rather up to 1000s of euros/month instead. But keep eroding the conditions so you can have your unique experience flying an A321 ETOPS (EDTO if you had kept up). I’m sure that added experience will feed your kids and prepare you for a comfortable retirement. Sigh...

[FlyTCI]

You're being foolish FlyTCI. Stop picking on little points I mentioned above and acting like you know this industry and every persons situation in extreme detail. I may just have been around in this industry as much as you. Primera is no BA, Lufthansa or Air France - we all know that. But precedence for the future was set a long time ago. Nothing anyone can do about that now. The irony is that a lot of people employed by Primera today come from a top 4 or 5 paying employer that went bankrupt last year.

1000s of euros a month? you are funny! :ok: No one would join (in the current recruitment climate) if that was really the case. If you want to talk further, PM me.
So you are saying there’s not 1000’s of euros per month in difference between the best and worst contracts on offer around Europe?

My beef with your post was based on the fact that one should be happy with a lower salary etc just because you gain new experience. I am no happier knowing that I do EDTO in a 737 (BBJ). What makes me happy is that, I would guess, I am pretty close to top of the food chain compared to most EU gigs when it comes to pay and time off aloowing me a good QOL. Granted my employer isn’t from the EU but does allow me to live in Europe. Not bragging, just saying what matters more to me than an added line to my CV.

So what if a bunch of spikey haired, young punks agreed to start paying for their types some 15-20 years ago and the industry started to take advantage of that? Why do we have to allow that precedence to continue to erode our conditions? In case you haven’t noticed, hiring is as good as it’s probably ever going to be in Euroland and the ball has shifted into our court. If we don’t take advantage of that as a group now then we have nobody but ourselves to blame for being taken advantage off. Change has to start somewhere, so why not today?

Look at what is currently happening in the US job market. A few years ago guys flying regional jets were slaving at $18-20k a year, now first year pay has at least doubled in a short matter of time. Not to speak about the big boys and the vast improvement to their contracts over the last couple of years. The pilots have the ace in their hands and they use it to better there hands even further. We can’t the same thing happen in Europe, even if to a lesser extent as the shortage is not as acute in Europe?

If you are happy where you are, then I’m happy for you. I just wish pilots in Europe could gather together and use their collective strength to better the conditions we work under.

[CaptainProp]

Where to work and for what t&cs is always a very personal question, but one thing is for sure, life is certainly not all about money. I have never applied to Primera, and have therefore never been sent the actual t&cs, but from what I hear easyjet is probably the only airline taking DEC in Europe that can compete with the pay in Primera (UK).

CP

[CaptainProp]

Birmingham Airport has said it is disappointed to confirm that Primera Air will temporarily suspend flights to New York and Toronto from June 21 due the ongoing late delivery of its long-haul A321neo aircraft from Airbus.

In a press release the airport said that Primera Air has confirmed that it plans to reinstate transatlantic services next year once the aircraft are available and that this announcement does not affect Primera Air’s short haul services in operation from Birmingham.

It added that since launching New York services last month, load factors have been positive, averaging 70%. This reinforces our knowledge that the demand for flights between Birmingham and North America is strong, with a market size already using Birmingham of more than 130,000 passengers.

The carrier says it is contacting all customers booked on services from June 21 to give refunds or transfer onto other services. Flights to Toronto were due to start on June 26.

Affected customers can contact Primera Air at [email protected] or call +44 (0) 148 223 5180 (tel:+44%20148%20223%205180). If customers have pre-booked car parking from Birmingham, a full refund will be given by contacting [email protected].



Are there delivery delays on the 321s?

CP

[crisp2]

Yes, delays mainly due to the Leap engine manufacturer and some tech issues in the tail and they can't get the ACMI over the summer to cover the operation.
Real question is it just an delay or an excuse to scrap long haul together out of BHX to focus on STN/CDG due to load factors?

[CaptainProp]

Interesting, wasn’t aware of that.

CP

[Lolo75020]

Are the salaries between b737 and A321 fleets the same??

[GKOC41]

Yes, delays mainly due to the Leap engine manufacturer and some tech issues in the tail and they can't get the ACMI over the summer to cover the operation.
Real question is it just an delay or an excuse to scrap long haul together out of BHX to focus on STN/CDG due to load factors?
Seems a bit late in the day. Feel for the crews impacted

[CaptainProp]

Crew being let go of? Can’t imagine that but this business keeps surprising me so who knows.

CP

[CaptainProp]

Why anyone would work for £800 / month is beyond me. If true, why don’t they just go and work for another airline that’s paying decent salaries?

CP

[oceancrosser]

Knowing those who own and manage this "airline" nothing will surprise me.

[italian stallion]

I just received an email from ASTA/Mountain high if I would be interested in 737 DEC position.
Don't know enough about the airline or the recruiter.

[CaptainProp]

Just read this on a well known website for airline T&Cs where users can update information:

“Planning for the summer has totally failed and the company is now so short of pilots that lots of flights are cancelled or delayed. The future of Primera Air is unsure despite the orders for new 737MAX9”

Strange world we live in. As far as I know there are thousands of pilots in Europe. I guess it’s just that not enough of them are willing to work for the T&Cs on offer. Easy fix, increase pay and improve rosters and working conditions.

CP

[gtaflyer]

can someone elaborate on perdiem of £400 for 10 units mean? Is it 400/10=40 pounds per layover?

[turbine100]

Does anyone know if ASTA / Mountain high resolved the issues of paying people correctly and on time?

Do they pay for car parking or anything at Stansted? Has anyone left who joined as flight crew due to the roster or late payments?

[Lolo75020]

According to the marketing chief officer, the reason why Primera Air has ordered A321Neo is to occupy the market while the 737Max9 was not available.
They indeed increased recently the orders up to 20 b737 Max 9 ER to use them on long range most probably on the same routes as the current A321Neo.
So within 2 years Airbus fleet will be probably disappeared from the Primera fleet and be replaced by a single b737 fleet.

The only question is that : why did they order only 2 A321LR?

[TBSC]

thats crap. I fly the neo. Never heard about any leap issue officially. Very bad to blame tech issues to hide the reality.
XFW is full of stored neo gliders for no reason then.

[HundredPercentPlease]

thats crap. I fly the neo. Never heard about any leap issue officially. Very bad to blame tech issues to hide the reality.

I think you are the only one to have not heard (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/27/airbus-reports-grisly-performance-runs-short-engines-jets/) about it...

[EGPFlyer]

I think you are the only one to have not heard (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/27/airbus-reports-grisly-performance-runs-short-engines-jets/) about it...

I thought the delays are for those with the P&W engine, not the LEAP

[future G-V driver]

According to the marketing chief officer, the reason why Primera Air has ordered A321Neo is to occupy the market while the 737Max9 was not available.
They indeed increased recently the orders up to 20 b737 Max 9 ER to use them on long range most probably on the same routes as the current A321Neo.
So within 2 years Airbus fleet will be probably disappeared from the Primera fleet and be replaced by a single b737 fleet.

The only question is that : why did they order only 2 A321LR?

Hi, to provide some clarity, Primera require more Range than the 737Max -9 can offer, hence the 321neo LR, for example CDG-EWR and CDG-YYZ the LR is required, especially as the Pax loads have exceeded expectations, by quite a wide margin, so if the loads are sustained in the Winter months, the LR is essential, I hope that answers your query





Hi, to provide some clarity, Primera require more Range than the 737Max -9 can offer, hence the 321neo LR, for example CDG-EWR and CDG-YYZ the LR is required, especially as the Pax loads have exceeded expectations, by quite a wide margin, so if the loads are sustained in the Winter months, the LR is essential, I hope that answers your query

[eiffel]

Is there a base in CDG ? Local contracts? (T&C?)
How many trips/months?

[Lolo75020]

Hi, to provide some clarity, Primera require more Range than the 737Max -9 can offer, hence the 321neo LR, for example CDG-EWR and CDG-YYZ the LR is required, especially as the Pax loads have exceeded expectations, by quite a wide margin, so if the loads are sustained in the Winter months, the LR is essential, I hope that answers your query

Actually Primera Air didn't receive any LR yet and they operate right now only "classic" A321Neo on their transatlantic routes. And as far as I know they can cross the ocean non stop.
The 737Max9 (with one Act) will be able to perform the same routes as the A321Neo.
So I guess that next year when the boeing 737 Max9 comes, primera will send back the airbus to the lessor.

Primera has ordered 2 LR only. I wonder why.





​​

[CaptainProp]

Actually Primera Air didn't receive any LR yet and they operate right now only "classic" A321Neo on their transatlantic routes. And as far as I know they can cross the ocean non stop.
The 737Max9 (with one Act) will be able to perform the same routes as the A321Neo.
So I guess that next year when the boeing 737 Max9 comes, primera will send back the airbus to the lessor.

Primera has ordered 2 LR only. I wonder why.

Max9 - typical 2 class seating 178-193, 6570 km range

321neo - typical 2 class seating 180-190, 6900 km range

321neo LR - 7400 km range.

In other worlds, both the neo and the neo LR have range advantages on the Max9.

CP

[Lolo75020]

Max9 - typical 2 class seating 178-193, 6570 km range

321neo - typical 2 class seating 180-190, 6900 km range

321neo LR - 7400 km range.

In other worlds, both the neo and the neo LR have range advantages on the Max9.

CP


Well the b737 is 5 tons lighter and can carry up to 500kg of fuel more.
So even if the Boeing is less efficient than the airbus, I believe that Primera could adjust the max payload in order to match the destination on their network.
For instance they could configurate the cabin at 189 pax so 9 less than the airbus in order to be 100% flexible with the rest of the fleet and be able to reach Toronto from Paris.

For 189 pax, payload is around 17t.
If oew is about 48t then the boeing 737 can carry 23,3 t of fuel which is exactly the fuel quantity of the A321 neo. As it is 5 tons ligher, the boeing will finally makes the same distance up to 4% less efficiency compared to the 321 neo.

​​​​​So no the b737 Max 9 will not be able to match the airbus with the 198 pax. But most probably yes it will be able to reach the same range if payload is adapted. And probably this pay load will be for 189 pax. Thus it will meet the capacity of the rest of the fleet (b737-800) and the aircraft will be able to be used on the long or middle haul with no change in the booking systems.

[CaptainProp]

More cancellations and ending operations from Birmingham completely, for now anyway.

https://www-coventrytelegraph-net.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/primera-air-birmingham-stansted-14972951.amp

CP

[Luibar]

With the cancellation of the short haul operation from BHX and STN, A321 crews are doing only long haul in a W pattern out of STN?

[FlyTCI]

How the heck do they expect this to work during the winter season? Just about every take off will be with a lump in the stomach. Or are they planning on fuel stop along the way?


07 August, 2018
SOURCE: Flight Dashboard
BY: David Kaminski-Morrow
London


Scandinavian carrier Primera Air’s first Airbus A321neo has been involved in a fuel emergency incident following a transatlantic service to Toronto.

The aircraft had been operating flight PF45 from London Stansted on 24 July.

Transportation Safety Board of Canada states in a bulletin that, during the descent, the crew “declared a fuel emergency” and was given priority for a runway 23 approach.
Shortly before 21:00, as the aircraft descended through 8,000ft, the crew was asked by approach controllers as to the quantity of fuel on board.

The crew replied that the jet had 2.3t and would have 2.1t on arrival, and also confirmed 204 occupants on board the flight, with no dangerous cargo.

Controllers cleared the aircraft for an ILS approach to runway 23 and TSB states that the aircraft landed without incident at 21:10.

Primera Air took delivery of the CFM International Leap-1A-powerd aircraft (OY-PAA), its first A321neo, in April this year, part of a strategy by the operator to open new transatlantic routes from the UK and France.

It disclosed last year that it would operate from London, Paris and Birmingham to New York and Boston with its A321neo fleet, and subsequently stated that it would include Toronto in the new transatlantic network.

[FlightDetent]

Hmm, would be interesting to hear what they actually said.

2,1 is FRSV plus 20 minutes.

[KyleRB]

I would expect that 2.1 included diversion fuel intact. FR fuel from experience hovering around 1.1/1.2. Under normal circumstances Hamilton is the alternate. Toronto has 5 runways so weather not being a factor nothing to stop you committing and using your alternate fuel. Until the LR arrives, I expect there will be planned tech stops over the winter months on some of the longest flights.

[CaptainProp]

So Toronto (CYYZ) has 10 (!) independent ILS approaches, ie 5 runways with instrument approaches to both ends. I have not flown the 321, old or neo, but I’m pretty certain final reserve is less than 2.100 kg. With weather being ok, all other runways open / availabe in case of one closing down, I don’t see why they declared an emergency at all to be honest.

CP

[CaptainProp]

KyleRB exactly. (Was writing as you posted)

[dirk85]

With that kind of fuel no way that is a "mayday fuel", at best a "minimum fuel" situation, but considering the destination, as already said, I see no problem in being committed, assuming good weather clearly.

[aless85]

Well the b737 is 5 tons lighter and can carry up to 500kg of fuel more.
So even if the Boeing is less efficient than the airbus, I believe that Primera could adjust the max payload in order to match the destination on their network.
For instance they could configurate the cabin at 189 pax so 9 less than the airbus in order to be 100% flexible with the rest of the fleet and be able to reach Toronto from Paris.

For 189 pax, payload is around 17t.
If oew is about 48t then the boeing 737 can carry 23,3 t of fuel which is exactly the fuel quantity of the A321 neo. As it is 5 tons ligher, the boeing will finally makes the same distance up to 4% less efficiency compared to the 321 neo.

​​​​​So no the b737 Max 9 will not be able to match the airbus with the 198 pax. But most probably yes it will be able to reach the same range if payload is adapted. And probably this pay load will be for 189 pax. Thus it will meet the capacity of the rest of the fleet (b737-800) and the aircraft will be able to be used on the long or middle haul with no change in the booking systems.

23.3Tons of fuel, are you sure about that figure....

[Lolo75020]

23.3Tons of fuel, are you sure about that figure....

Well 23500 at the gate for the neo and 23800 for the 737.

[FRogge]

The thing here is, that it is way more fuel than the 737MAX can take.

[Lolo75020]

The thing here is, that it is way more fuel than the 737MAX can take.
The b737 Max 9 is equipped with 1 ACT.
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/#

[FRogge]

Okay, I stand corrected. Didn’t know that there was that option.

[aless85]

The b737 Max 9 is equipped with 1 ACT.
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/#

Just out of curiosity, where did you find this figure of 23T. I fly the MAX 8 of course without Auxiliary tank and on the best day you can fit 21.0T.

Thanks

[Lolo75020]

Just out of curiosity, where did you find this figure of 23T. I fly the MAX 8 of course without Auxiliary tank and on the best day you can fit 21.0T.

Thanks
The fuel capacity with one act is just the same one as on the b737-900er: 29660.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation

[Lolo75020]

Here we are, today Primera has lined out the plans for the next season.
3 b737 Max 9 will be based in BRU for the transatlantic flights. I guess few other bases will be soon announced for the b737 long range as they have ordered 20 machines.

I guess the range of the boeing is definitely the same as the 321Neo or even better as Bruxelles is even further than Paris or Stansted.

[Airbuskutscher]

How do rosters on the A321Neo Primera look like?

[future G-V driver]

How do rosters on the A321Neo Primera look like?

ROSTER'S

mmmmmm chaotic, shambles, take your pick. Zero Management, massive issues, I would stay away until we see action to sort out a Business out of control............

It could be fantastic, but it is not anywhere close. Payrise pending, but its not just about the T&C, much more about Management steering the Co to success, we are Rudderless

[Master1975]

Hello future G-V driver,

Maybe you can give me a better insight picture....how is the life as a Crew? are they respect each other.....and how are the hotels on stopover. Have you the possibly to make some workout or use the Gym? Regarding the roster how looks a normal month? how many Standby days can I expect.

How long was your training and the line training after the OPC/LPC? do you see the same problems still exist if the MAX starts to fly? Is it right that 8 A321NEO on order and two of the are A321NEO LR? and when they are expect to put them on the line....it looks like they still have issue due to the delay delivery from Airbus?

Finally my question is it worth thinking about leaving a secured job to work for Primera Air?

Thank you in advance for taken your time to answer my question.

Best Regards

[tony the jesus]

mmmmmm chaotic, shambles, take your pick. Zero Management, massive issues, I would stay away until we see action to sort out a Business out of control............

It could be fantastic, but it is not anywhere close. Payrise pending, but its not just about the T&C, much more about Management steering the Co to success, we are Rudderless

Primera A321 operation wil have a very short life if it continues like this.

[Master1975]

May can I ask you some questions about Primera?

Are you being in the company since first day of flying LH? If yes is the answer why you joined the company. Of course it’s a tough job specially due to departure times and you need to be very restrictive with yourself. I’m not saying that this is definitely my last job but I wanna see something new. Give me a view from your side what are the benefits what are the disadvantages and how are you see the future. In the news they announcing a lot of more airports coming more destinations more planes. To be successful in the future they need to motivate the employees otherwise Stuffing will become difficult a lot of jobs that are actually available.

A lot of Writers in this post has negative opinions and meanings of course this is the right of everyone....and that’s good.

How are you prepare yourself for the 29th of March next year do you have already Plan B.

Thanks for your help

[linmar]

I have been offered a position with Primera, but the contract sucks.......is this the best they can do considering they are short of crew?

Well, the business model depends on it, apparently:

https://www.eurocockpit.be/news/little-differently-philosophy-primera-air

About a year ago the DFO was quoted saying how happy the company was to see airBerlin and Monarch go belly up. Despite most pilots being picked up by the likes of easyjet, BA, Virgin, TUI etc. he argued there will always be a few in the bankrupt companies that slid through the recruitment process once with an established airline, however would have a hard time passing it a second time. Those would be welcomed to join Primera to the conditions you describe, as they would have nowhere else to go...

Sure, not a first hand quote that I've heard myself but a reliable source.

[KyleRB]

Utter garbage and rather offensive to myself and my colleagues. Whilst I fully accept terms and conditions need ramping up to attract and retain good crews together with better rostering and planning, the rest is just an ignorant smear. I personally passed selection for 2 other airlines, one in UK and one in Asia. I choose Primera because I could stay on type, live 30 minutes from my base and also do longhaul. The challenges and opportunities in a start up can also be an attraction.

Many of my colleagues are from good airlines like Monarch, Thomas Cook, Turkish, WOW, Alitalia, Gulf Air, Etihad, Jetstar Asia etc as well as a few ex military pilot backgrounds. To say they only ended up at Primera because they weren’t good enough to go anywhere else is a nasty smear irrespective of the alleged source!

[MCDU2]

I had some sympathy based on your first paragaph. Then you went and let yourself down with your list of airlines you consider "good". Maybe edit it and put in first world airlines such as BA, AL, KLM, Air France, Lufty, SAS.

You know many pilots actually join major airlines and see out their careers with the one employer. We don't need to chase contracts across the world. Sure sometimes its a bit of luck to avoid one going bust but then I am a firm believer that you make a lot of your own luck in the world.

[KyleRB]

MCDU2

I don’t know any Primera flight crew from the very good major airlines you mention. Personally I doubt anyone from BA, Lufty etc would join Primera. We have ended up at Primera either because we want to be closer to home or through redundancy or through lifestyle choice. The operation is potentially ground breaking, low cost narrow body longhaul hasn’t been done before. Either it will catch on with other major players joining in or even buying Primera or it will wither on the vine!

[FlightDetent]

Don't feed the troll. Ending not in BA/AL in one stage in your career makes no-one a cripple pilot. Not to mention that review of JACDEC shows at least 2 of his chosen creme-dela-creme to be somewhat an under-informed choice.

Many pilots who have carried their families through bankruptcy needed to go full expat or very far away from home. After 2-5 years out, the value of home takes off into a completely another dimension. Hope it works for you, and maybe eventually it will transform into a more tolerable assignment. For instance, the Monarchs at SAIL are trying hard in similar circumstances. Wish success to both.

[Elephant and Castle]

a year ago the DFO was quoted saying

He was quoting the DFO. If those are indeed the views of the DFO that is pretty offensive for the crews

[rog747]

Sad news as we now know - Airline to cease all Ops WIE.

Condolences to all the crews and staff - many came from Monarch who also collapsed a year ago today too...

[FlipFlapFlop]

I am not Primera but this is a hell of a stupid comment.
Where do you fly superman?
Troll.
Forgive him for he knows not what he says......from inexperience and ignorance.

[Master1975]

Hello ex colleagues of the Primera Air. It is sad that a promising idea experiences such a quick ending.

What I saw skeptically from the beginning was the collaboration with ASTA. In retrospect, this was quite justified and has saved me from private bankruptcy.

Andri Már Ingólfsson is already a shrewd businessman. Like many others, he simply outsources the dangerous costs of insolvency and thus bears no responsibility whatsoever.
His wistful and oh so personal mail to everyone is just a joke. The answers came in bulk and at sometimes were marked by strong emotions.With all the laws that the passengers have the policy but apparently that there is still us. To get an AOC, you need a lot of things, but most of all you need money. The policy should start only to award AOC's when the pay of the employees is secured.

Above all, the responsible aviation authority should finally take off your blinders and prohibit such constructs as those at Primera Air and ASTA. With almost 30 years in the aviation industry, I also had to discover that a lot has changed.

The statements so many pilots are needed scares me. The more they need will be, the more people like Andri Már Ingólfsson will try to get the maximum out of us.
Anyone who thinks that he is crying for us is wrong. His financial geniuses have been making sure for several weeks that his Primer Travel Group will perform well.
I learned a lot during my studies! Above all.... only believe what you understand yourself. We are all just one piece of the whole and only those who are unfortunately able to generate profit.

Sad is and unfortunately that is the truth. The aviation will continue to grow but the collateral for us will be less and less exist.
Earlier compared to today, a frequently job change would have been the death sentence. Nowadays it is more normal that after many years of work you have to write a two-page CV to apply.

1 1/2 years I have looked around, compared and now had to come to the conclusion that it is sometimes better to hold a half full glass in the hand, than the promise to get a full glass to believe.

I wish all former colleagues and colleagues that you will soon find something again. Perhaps a start in a very different area is the first step out of this endless loop of mismanagement, corruption and ongoing lies.

I have only a few more years and I hope to survive, but one thing I would like to clarify. If it hits me I will certainly not fly again.

We do everything in the cockpit to make sure that everything runs smoothly. None of us should take off without Plan B. Even ECAM, EICAS and FORDEC are just clues and not a patent prescription.
In daily training, I always get to know people who have no answer to the question of what your plan B looks like if you can not fly from one day to the next.
My dad used to say ... boy, if you want to fly, you can do that, but first you have to do an apprenticeship in the craft, on which you can build if necessary, if the other does not work.

[macdo]

Good post from Master1975.