Tax Payments due

[Trafalgar]

Colleagues, in the next few weeks we will all be sending hundreds of thousand of dollars to the HK Government. Money that will not now be used to support your families, pay for education, bills or any other financial concern that we all share. You can personally send a message of thanks to your management. I might add that they of course WILL be receiving large bonuses to help them with their tax bills.

To the Captains of the airline, when you write that cheque, please know that you are appreciated and valued by our management. We must be, considering how much they demonstrated their respect and regard for us with the 13th month issue. Also remember that our colleagues at KA are happily using their 13th month to pay their tax bills (and I do not begrudge them that in the slightest).

So, as we all try to organise tax loans, deplete our savings and cancel that holiday or new purchase, know that it is all down to a select few managers who themselves won't be suffering the same hardship. If that is something that upsets you just a little bit, then perhaps you can arrange to demonstrate that displeasure in the coming weeks. Happy Tax Day. :ok:

[Trafalgar]

The main thing is a370, no matter the short term hits we are taking at CX, you'll have the career you deserve, so ably demonstrated by your envy driven comments.

[Freehills]

Trafalgar - the HK government is pretty decent, as governments go. The taxes you pay do pay for education, for health care, for policing, for support of the elderly etc.

Not have PAYG like most of the world just means that you have to remember to save, rather than having it deducted. But it is hardly a surprise - however every year some forget to budget and scramble for tax loans etc.

So, cancelling that holiday etc. has got nothing to do with the (reasonable) tax regime in HK, but not getting ex gratia payment.

[Air Profit]

Freehills. I don't see Traf's comments as critical of the HK tax regime. Simply pointing out that the Captains of the airline are having to dig much deeper than they should (Swire's are paying their 'other' captains at KA a 13th). Combine that with the fact that without the disastrous fuel hedge (managements fault) we would have had a profit, and full 13th month. Being short almost $200K is a blow, no matter how you budget. They have robbed all of CX staff (other than the lower ranks) and they expect somehow we should just shrug and keep on giving them our full co-operation. I don't think so.

[Ecam321]

Have you guys any idea how you sound like a bunch of entitled w****ers. Completely out of touch with how businesses survive in this modern climate. You may think your the creme de la creme but the reality is you are all replaceable, get over your selves, you sound f***king retarded.

[Oasis]

It's time for someone's nap...

[Tea time]

Ecam 321,
You are correct we don’t know how businesses survive with the incompetents that are currently in management . If it hadn’t been for the absolutely disasterous fuel hedging decisions , for which no manager has yet been held responsible , there would be plenty of money for all the crews to get their full 13th month.
So management are making the crew pay for their screw ups . See anything wrong with this?

[Flex88]

Ecam, there's a job waiting for you at Air Asia X.. You're a perfect fit; the pay scale and conditions of service are tailor made just for you.. Aim high..
Your low expectations only to clearly identify you and your position in this discussion..
"If" you are actually flight crew, take your low Uber driver expectations and your flight bag to Garuda and enjoy life..

[BlunderBus]

Are we one and the same as KA? Or is the company being downgraded to destruction so they can focus on the success of KA? By honouring the letter of the contracts and paying KA 13th month then treating the ‘other team’ Captains they way they did is surely pure contempt. Single out a group you totally depend on and abuse them 10” before the holiday season must surely light up the big red ‘warning’ sign??? Surely???

[bacou]

For those who need to read it again.

KA 13th month is CONTRACTUAL,
if CX 13th month is discretionary, I don’t know your contract as I don’t work for CX, you must accept that it is not paid if the airline is losing money.
That’s simple rule, management won’t attack contract until they have taken out all non contractual items.

I agree with the fact that the money was stupidly lost by bad choices and staff shouldn’t pay for that but stop saying we at KA have a 13th month and that’s unfair.

Our 13th month is UNDER OUR COS. They touch my COS I’ll be gone, not wasting my time blaming others on a forum.

[Liam Gallagher]

Bacou,

Our beef is not with the non-payment of 13th month, our beef is with the purposeful exclusion of the D-level staff (essentially the Captains) from the $35k ex-gratia payment....see the difference?

What has made matters worse has been a conveyor belt of managers, commencing with Director People, putting forward a succession of lame reasons in an attempt to justify what is starting to look like a very ugly, ill thought out decision. As each reason is shot down by a very large and motivated group on yammer, a new reason is trundled out in a bungled attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

In turn, this farce, which many are calling "Tomgate", is stoking the underlying feeling that our managers are inept. Which of course brings us back to the $25bn Fuel Hedge loss.....

[raven11]

Bacou

The point is that it used to be contractual for us too! Sadly, in Hong Kong contracts are pliable....

Have some sympathy...your support and understanding would be appreciated....spare us your aggression...we don’t need any more of that...our cup runneth over!

Try to imagine having to worry about receiving this part of your pay each and every year!

Even the ex gratia payment would have been a fraction of what you will be receiving. Lucky you....now go and pay your tax bill.

[Piet Lood]

What has made matters worse has been a conveyor belt of managers, commencing with Director People, putting forward a succession of lame reasons in attempt to justify want is starting to look like a very ugly, ill thought out decision. As each reason is shot down by a very large and motivated group on yammer, a new reason is trundled out in attempt to justify the unjustifiable.



That reminds me of the European tax debacle 6 years ago:

In 2007 CX ORDERED us (UK based pilots) to finalise our tax affairs in Hong Kong in April 2008, eventually resulting in tremendous financial hardship for dozens of UK based pilots, because that DIRECTIVE turned out to be ILLEGAL.
This was a result of the Croft case in the UK and the typical CX knee-jerk reaction and not doing their homework (i.e. picking up the phone with the HKIRD and having a 5 minute conversation that could have prevented this from happening, thanks Claire Delaney!).
The following is the VERY short version of what ensued in the next 5 years:

*Us to Richard Hall and Philip Herbert:"Why have you given us illegal tax directives/advice?"
*RH/PH: "We haven't, the HKIRD changed the law"
*Us to HKIRD:"The company says you changed the law?"
*HKIRD:"No, we haven't. This law dates back to 197X"
*Us to RH/PH:"The HKIRD didn't change the law, it dates back from 197X"
*RH/PH:"Oh nonono, they changed the INTERPRETATION of the law"
*Us to HKIRD:"Now the company is saying you changed the INTERPRETATION of the law"
*HKIRD:"No, we haven't, this is a ruling from 198X, same case, same result, same ruling"
*Us to RH/PH:"The HKIRD hasn't changed the interpretation either".
*RH/PH:"Oh well, tax is your own responsibility".

It always amazed me that a "pilot" like RH was unwilling or unable to accept responsibilities for his actions.
Most of the people I have flown with take responsibility for their actions: good AND bad.
I can "understand" such a lack from psychopaths that have no moral ground, no empathy towards their fellow man and are only interested in their bonuses, but for a "pilot" "leader" to abrogate his responsibility towards his former peers has always amazed me.

Yes, I am still naive and don't mind keeping it that way.

[bacou]

Guys you must understand that by posting that KA pilots are getting their 13th month, you’re not asking management to give it back to CX pilots but to cut it from us.
How can we feel about that?

You have my support and I wrote it on the previous post.
Management lost money and try to get it back from their staff while Swire pockets are deep enough to wait for edging losses disappearing.
Tactics used against you will be used against us later but you shouldn’t talk about KA unless you’re ready to accept to share everything, good and bad.

KA pilots are as much unhappy as you are, we got the results of the engagement survey yesterday showing 1/3 of the 185 pilots doing it looking for an other job or planning to leave within 12 months

I know Staff Travel will come back to the discussion. We didn’t ask for it and it came out of nowhere to help us accept a small pay rise. You might think it’s unfair but then blame your management for that, not us.

[Liam Gallagher]

Bacou,

I can assure you that the 500 people on yammer are not promoting the argument that anyone, let alone our colleagues at KA, should not receive their contractual 13th month. There may be 1 or 2 ppruners saying some foolish words, however the other 3000 CX pilots are not promoting that argument. In fact, the argument is now morphing into a call for the company to obey not only the words in contracts and laws, but the underlying spirit.

The relationship between the HKAOA and DPA has always been strong and it was great to see DPA members at our recent Focus Night. Please reject any argument attempting to drive a wedge between the 2 groups, because that is not the direction the two unions are taking.

Please don't allow yourself to be suckered by the "fake news" generated by one or two ppruners.

[swh]

Bacou,

What you are missing is that part of the management justification in the written communications for not paying CX CNs is that all Level Ds got nothing.

What is blatantly disingenuous about the justification is that Level D employees like yourself through contractural requirements, and other Level D staff employed either get a contractural full 13th month, a performance payment, or a combination thereof.

Yes on the balance of all probabilities it is true that all Level Ds didn’t get the additional ex gratia payment, however it has been painted nothing at all was paid.

Furthermore I fully expect to see in the published accounts next year significant bonuses paid to senior management.

They have stated in the announcement that the transformation is going better than planned. I read that to mean the performance bonuses (which are linked to savings) will be higher as targets have been exceeded.

We have also been told we need x savings from pilots because the crew costs have gone up. Then they reward cabin crew with a pay rise, which in turn increases crew costs.

It’s has the appearance of the only people taking a pay hit being the CX CNs.

I might have all this wrong, time will tell.

[Trafalgar]

SWH. That is EXACTLY as I see it, and that is EXACTLY as it is. The only thing left to conclude is what EXACTLY the abused and disrespected Captains of this airline are going to do about it? I am one of those, and I know EXACTLY what I am going to be doing. I hope all my other affected colleagues know EXACTLY what they will be doing also.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that if this aggression against us (and the whole pilot body effectively) goes unchallenged, then we are doomed. Both the Captains and all other ranks. There is NO CHOICE but to send our management a sharp message. A message that says we will not be treated in this way. Make up your minds people: take definitive action this holiday season (and for as long as necessary). If the aircraft continue to operate as normal, pretty soon the terms and conditions at HK Express will seem desirable.

This is the end-game. Don't doubt that. Yammer is indicating the will is there. Act now or accept the career is over.

[Meikleour]

Trafalgar: Just to be clear - you sound like the type of individual who never got around to monthly budgeting for your expected tax liability! Most people in HK manage this perfectly well!

[Trafalgar]

Just to be 'clear'. I didn't say I 'could not pay my tax bill'. I said that I have been cheated out of a months salary that I normally would have used to cover a portion of my tax bill. Of course, just to be 'clear', your comment clearly implies your sympathies don't lie with the CX Captains appalling treatment by their management. But thanks for missing the point regardless. JTBC.

[Meikleour]

Trafalgar:You also seem to have missed my point! In my almost 25 years in HK, the vast majority of my colleagues managed their tax planning successfully however, there was always a small minority who chose the strategy of not planning adequately and then relying on the usual 13th. month to settle their tax bill. To put it mildly, that is unwise as you now know. Monthly planning means that the tax fund is ready whether or not the 13th. month is paid.
You are wrong to asume my sympathies do not lie with the crew involved but that has litytle to do with tax planning.

PS if you would like to pm mr with your bank account details I will see if I can arrange a loan, at suitable interest rate, to help you out from my Cayman Islands account.

PPS the vitriol coming out of your postings suggest to me that perhaps you would be happier away from CX?

[Start Fore]

Yes, we'd all be happier away from CX, but we digress.

Meikleour, no need for monthly planning when you can get double your tax bill in the form of a 1pct/12 month tax loan. In fact, you'd be stupid setting aside 17pct of your salary monthly when you can invest that income immediately, get a decent return and get a 1pct tax loan the next year.

Let's get on with some escalation shall we!?

[Meikleour]

Start Fore: Fair point! However I have also lost count of the number of discusions I've had on the flightdeck about "sure fire investment oportunities"!!!

[BlunderBus]

Tax or no :mad: tax....the issue is financial discrimination against one group. Stay focussed on the issue.
How many non flying level D staff are there in Hong Kong? Bugger all. The 'we're all in the same basket' crap is the usual spin. The brunt of this slimy decision is borne by HK based Captains no mistake and it's a gutless slap in the face.

[Trafalgar]

Hi Everyone. Happy New Year. Just remember who you get to thank when you make those tax bill payments in the next few days. I would think most of us have figured out the best way of showing our 'appreciation'.

[Pucka]

Traf..et al.. as a matter of interest, my request to surrender my tax contributions in instalments has yet to receive a reply…I did underline the effects of the so called 13th month.. one of the contributing factors why I joined this circus from a prestigious legacy mob in the first place..a possible rallying of understanding from the Revenue?? who knows but I believe medical science has a new species of disease.. SMDS.. sever motivational disorder syndrome.. apparently its endemic at CX..vaccines are yet to be fully tried but it is understood that a proper diet of restored RP's and a 13th month is vital to prevent ultimate failure of the trinity of attempting to fly..

[Air Profit]

Or about the equivalent of RH and AT's bonuses (paid for by your lack of a bonus). Be sure to sign-on on time today boys and girls.

[Betsy]

I borrowed a tax loan, put all the money on some blue chip stocks (00293.HK no longer one of them), hoping the gains will cover my tax payment.

[PDR1]

Just to be 'clear'. I didn't say I 'could not pay my tax bill'. I said that I have been cheated out of a months salary that I normally would have used to cover a portion of my tax bill

But this "month's salary" you refer to is a discretionary bonus, is it not?

Relying on that to pay some of your tax bill is like planning your approach based on the hope that there will be a 2,000ft/min thermal for the last 1/2 mile before touchdown and then blaming the weather when you stack it into the undershoot...

You claim that the fuel hedging was a management decision which pilots shouyld not have to pay for. But you would presumably be happy to take a bonus resulting from the performance of the non-pilot activities (sales, check-in staff, baggage handling, freight factoring, maintenance, facilities mgmt etc etc).

You are in a job where for every employed ATPL there are a dozen who would leap at the chance to train for it, and all you do is constantly whinge about how the aircraft captains (clearly the only people in the airline who do anything - you seem to think every one of your non-captain colleagues is unfit to lick your boots) are sufferiung as a result of their own rank stupidity. If ypou don't like it you are free to go and do something else. I gather Bradford has openings for dustmen - that might be more aligned to your attitudes.

[raven11]

PDR
Those dozen or so you speak of are free to go for it...yourself included. There are no pianos tied to anyone’s rear end.

In the mean time, try running your airline without the one in 13 you disparage.

[Trafalgar]

PDR. There is so much drivel in what you've just said that I am happy for it to remain here as an object lesson in ignorance. Or are you, from your leafy suburb in Farnham, Surrey (said with the proper accent of course) cognizant of the nuances that underlie the current state of affairs at CX (or the past 25 years of management malice)? Perhaps you and 11 others you could round up at your village lawn bowling club would like to take over for a few months for my colleagues and I while our management sorts us out? You seem like someone who would make a perfect manager here in HK (perhaps you once were I suspect) as your tone, arrogance and ignorance are reminiscent of many train wrecks that have come through our management doors in the past.

[PDR1]

That's right - playing the man is always the best solution to the problem.

I'm only saying what the others are thinking; you are simply showing yourselves up to be people who prize being unprofessional, uneducated and incompetent. You are certainly not showing the Commercial Pilot profession in any particularly good light. If I was one of your colleagues I'd probably want you lot expelled from the profession to avoid embarrassment to the rest.

[Trafalgar]

Ah, unprofessional and uneducated and incompetent. I'll put my MBA back on the shelf then.... (and I see you speak for 'all the others' and 'know what they are thinking'). Megalomania is a strong suit of our management team, you would fit right in.

nb: as you also deem us 'incompetent', I trust we won't have the pleasure of your company on one of our flights?

[Ecam321]

Trafalgar's AvatarTrafalgar , 1st Jan 2018 13:17
Hi Everyone. Happy New Year. Just remember who you get to thank when you make those tax bill payments in the next few days


Yes, you get to thank CX for giving you employment and a salary that you get to pay tax on.

[Trafalgar]

Right, i'll get back to the coal-face right way guvnor.

[cxorcist]

Ecam321

No, I don’t think I’ll be thanking CX. By the looks of things, they need me a lot more than I need them. Plenty of other good flying jobs out there for experienced captains.

[Trafalgar]

And Ecam, when you finally make it in the industry (although with your attitude, doubtful), you will appreciate the fact that a good company 'thanks' it's employees for their dedication and professionalism. I work, and work hard. I don't need to 'thank' CX for anything. I earn my salary. I also expect to be treated properly, hence the volume of comments on this venue and many others as to how epic a failure CX is in that regard. As you don't work here, I don't expect you to understand, just as I wouldn't be arrogant enough to understand the issues where you work.

[cxorcist]

This reminds me of the fast jet days when so many were in awe at my good fortune. No, I worked my ass off to fly fighters for not much money, and I was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for my country whilst doing so. Lucky? Not at all!

[mngmt mole]

Those that "do" understand. Those that "don't" never will. But they still think their opinion has value. You can only have pity :rolleyes:

[cxorcist]

... and there’s no point in explaining it to them. This new iPhone, internet, social media generation knows it all; and if they don’t, they just google it. There’s no point in telling them anything...

Firstly because they don’t know how to communicate in person, secondly because their liberal professors at university already taught them everything they need to know, and lastly because we are dinosaurs no longer useful in today’s day and age.

This sentiment is conveniently adopted by CX to save a buck on 13th month, attacks on “expat” conditions, etc. Management plays to this demographic because they are easily conned. Just look at the job advert on the other thread for evidence of this - pure snowflake material and absolutely cringeworthy.

[FreemaninHK]

Just paid them.. with much hardship..

[Dragon69]

No, I worked my ass off to fly fighters for not much money,

So Maverick, what's the difference between a cadet that worked his or her ass off to come and fly for cx for not much money and you then?

[mngmt mole]

If you don't know that answer to that, then there's really not much point explaining it to you. Again, those that "do" understand, those that "don't" never will.

[cxorcist]

So Maverick, what's the difference between a cadet that worked his or her ass off to come and fly for cx for not much money and you then?

Shockingly ignorant post. I’ll leave others to fill in the void.

[Flex88]

Folks, this person is the EXACT reason we are fighting four the degradation of our profession. You could almost swear he's an EU plant. We're all the same right.. :yuk:

[Ecam321]

There it is for all to see in these pages. The vain, ignorant and narcissistic CX A scale me me me generation.

[Trafalgar]

Yes, you are correct Ecam, how dare those Captains suggest that they deserved some bonus like the rest of the staff. How unreasonable of us. (enjoying another day in your cubicle are you?)

[raven11]

Ecam321

Bitterness and jealousy...not a nice combo.

Look at employee relations at a successful company...the fruits of success and hard work are equally shared. Not hoarded or parsed out discriminately to “favored” groups.

[Captain Dart]

Ecam, it is people like you who cause hard working pilots like me not to be able to have nice things any more.

[joblow]

Exam 321 , obviously a management plant or wannabe , his/her or? Ideas are so far off the mark it’s ridiculous