Scottish Income Tax

[haltonapp]

If the Scottish government raises income tax tomorrow will those servicemen and women posted to Scotland have to pay the higher tax?

[Chinny Crewman]

Yes but there are exceptions. The following DIN has all the details;

2015DIN01-215

[Party Animal]

Those in the higher tax bracket already do - and have done for some time!!

[The Old Fat One]

I confess that it surprises me that more has not been made of this...or is there something I don't know?

tbh, retired and living in Scotland it does not really bother me paying a wee bit more tax, but I think it would if I was still serving.

[taxydual]

Wade through this lot

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/heritage/articlesofunion.pdf

See if you've got a case.

Good Luck.

[Timelord]

The Conservative MP for Moray, and therefore Lossiemouth, Douglas Ross is on this case and I'm sure he would be glad to hear from anyone, particularly those still serving, who have strong opinions on this. Contact details are available on parliament website.

[Always a Sapper]

What happens if you live on the English side of the border, are employed by a company headquartered in say London but do most of your work in Scotland?

Same goes but other way round?

Going to be a bit like the wee kranky putting additional tax on wines, beers and spirits....

[Timelord]

What happens if you live on the English side of the border, are employed by a company headquartered in say London but do most of your work in Scotland?

Same goes but other way round?

Going to be a bit like the wee kranky putting additional tax on wines, beers and spirits....
It's all about your address. If I had the money I'd buy a block of flats in Berwick and rent them to Edinburgh high earners.

[newt]

I’m fed up with the SNP! When are the Scots going to come to their senses and stop this nonsense?

[Heathrow Harry]

probably when the English stop telling them what is good for them........

The SNP are set for a fall but their rise was due to the fact that Scots never felt that the UK Govt and especially the Tory Party , ever listened to their concerns.......

[newt]

Maybe we should withdraw the Barnett formula! Then they have good cause to not feel part of the U.K.!

[Avionker]

I’m fed up with the SNP! When are the Scots going to come to their senses and stop this nonsense?

Could you be any more patronising?

Do you live in Scotland? If so you had your chance to vote. If you don’t , and I don’t believe you do, then why does it concern you?

The people of Scotland voted the SNP into power in democratic elections. At the next Holyrood elections the people of Scotland will decide who is fit to form the Scottish government, and quite frankly the way Brexit is been handled I would not be surprised if the SNP retained their mandate.

[melmothtw]

I would suggest that if you live or work in a particular country, then you pay the taxes that are due in that particular country. It's not difficult.

[Timelord]

I would suggest that if you live or work in a particular country, then you pay the taxes that are due in that particular country. It's not difficult.

I don't remember paying German taxes all the years I was posted there, or paying no tax when on ops in some other countries.

[melmothtw]

Fair dos. My comment was a more general response to newt's references to the SNP and the Barnett formula.

As to UK forces in Scotland, I guess they'll just have to pay at the rate that has been decided for them.

[Bob Viking]

I wish I could have paid Canadian taxes for the 3.5 years I was based there.

I bet guys on loan service in Oman wish they could have paid Omani tax whilst they were there too.

That’s not the case though. All people serving in foreign countries are still subject to UK tax.

Why should service in Scotland be any different?

BV

[melmothtw]

They are subject to UK tax (clue; Scotland is in the UK).

Clearly, the arrangements for all of the non-UK countries you list will not be the same as they will be for the UK country you name.

[Blacksheep]

In the glory days when we were posted all over the world we paid our tax and national insurance at source, in UK. It had nothing to do with our address or where we worked, we were employed by the MOD and paid in Gloucester. The serviceman is paid to serve anywhere under standard contract conditions. When I worked as a consultant at Sabena Technics in Belgium in 2008 my salary was paid with UK tax and N.I. contributions deducted by the Agency here in UK and I was not subject to Belgian tax, it being the source of one's income that controls where tax is paid. For service personnel that source is not in Scotland. So to repeat, why should being posted to Scotland be any different?

[melmothtw]

In the glory days when we were posted all over the world we paid our tax and national insurance at source, in UK. It had nothing to do with our address or where we worked, we were employed by the MOD and paid in Gloucester. So, why would being posted to Scotland be any different?

Maybe it's not. Has anyone actually checked?

[Timelord]

Maybe it's not. Has anyone actually checked?

Yes. As it currently stands if you have an address in Scotland you pay Scottish rates of tax. As someone has already said this has resulted in higher taxes for those earning over £43000 for some time now since the threshold was not raised in Scotland when it was for the rest of UK. In fairness it should also be stated that your Scottish address also gets your kids free university tuition and your wife free prescriptions. Perhaps the service person should get the option to chose.

[melmothtw]

As it currently stands if you have an address in Scotland you pay Scottish rates of tax.

If you'd had a private address in Germany, Canada, or wherever when you were based there, would you not have paid tax in that country? I'm guessing you would have.

[Timelord]

If you'd had a private address in Germany, Canada, or wherever when you were based there, would you not have paid tax in that country? I'm guessing you would have.

I don't think so. Certainly not in Germany.

[melmothtw]

Well, whatever the truth, like you say, it's swings and roundabouts...


In fairness it should also be stated that your Scottish address also gets your kids free university tuition and your wife free prescriptions.

[Timelord]

But the point is the violation of the principle that wherever you are posted your tax situation remains the same.

[ORAC]

If you'd had a private address in Germany, Canada, or wherever when you were based there, would you not have paid tax in that country? I'm guessing you would have. I moved a round the world quite a bit whilst I worked for Raytheon.

The standard arrangement was that when I lived abroad the deducted the same amount from my UK salary as they would have for tax and NI whilst I was in the UK and paid my NI stamp fee. They provided details of one of their accountants in my country of residence who liaised with me and submitted my tax return. The bill was then paid by Raytheon. Once I had a local bank account set up I could nominate a set monthly amount and they would pay it into my bank account at a fixed rate and pick up the transfer costs (yes, if the rate was in my favour I could transfer back or forth on my own).

[Timelord]

I can't somehow see MOD going along with all of that!

[downsizer]

Just issue LOA.....:\

[ORAC]

What will happen when someone refuses a posting on the basis of finance?

[Melchett01]

What will happen when someone refuses a posting on the basis of finance?

I can't see Manning being overly happy if a financial precedent were set. If they did it would potentially open the flood gates to a potentially wider range of issues which might tie their hands. For example, how many singlies are there doing the weekly commute and having to pay to live in whilst married colleagues are accommodated for free? Would they have a further claim if they weren't allowed to turn down a posting on financial grounds when somebody posted to Scotland could? Just a thought.

[Bob Viking]

Melmoth.

Come on you don’t get off that easily. As a Crown servant you pay UK tax wherever you are based in the world. The rate set by Westminster.

Why should living in Scotland be different?

The free tuition fees and prescriptions doesn’t wash for me.

Firstly, how many people are still serving when their kids go to university? Hardly a quid pro quo.

Secondly, families in Wales get free prescriptions and cheaper university education (for now at least). They don’t have to pay more tax for the privilege.

My comment was flippant but surely you see my point.

If I didn’t get the benefit of paying Canadian tax when I was based in Canada, why should I suffer (hypothetically since I don’t live in Scotland) the disadvantage of paying higher tax in Scotland?

Home ownership is irrelevant in my opinion.

BV

[newt]

Could you be any more patronising?

Do you live in Scotland? If so you had your chance to vote. If you don’t , and I don’t believe you do, then why does it concern you?

The people of Scotland voted the SNP into power in democratic elections. At the next Holyrood elections the people of Scotland will decide who is fit to form the Scottish government, and quite frankly the way Brexit is been handled I would not be surprised if the SNP retained their mandate.

Yes I live in Scotland and voted to remain so maybe you would like to adjust your post Avionker!

[downsizer]

For example, how many singlies are there doing the weekly commute and having to pay to live in whilst married colleagues are accommodated for free?

Erm, this has stopped. If it hasn't, why the fudge am I paying?

[Party Animal]

I believe that a senior aircrew flt lt based in Scotland will be paying approximately £1k/yr more in tax than his/her equivalent based south of the border, when the next SNP iteration of tax demands is released. As someone who lives there, my council tax went up by 33% last year too!

This is all based on anyone who earns above £25k/yr and not claiming benefits being classed as rich and therefore they must pay more. Also, anyone who may have worked harder in life to afford a house in a council tax bracket above level C, is also a filthy capitalist b'stard who should be made to pay for it!!!

Interestingly though, during a not too distant overseas tour, my family had to pay for any medical treatment beyond that you would receive from the English NHS. When I pointed out that as a Scottish dweller, it would be free, the answer was 'tough sh1t - English rules apply'!

Watch this space for future refusals to be posted to Scotland based on the financial discrepancy.

[Party Animal]

Downsizer

Those without a marriage certificate (that is still valid), still pay accom charges, regardless of their domestic circumstances...

Those who are bone fide married and living away from home during the week, do not pay to live in.

Everyone now pays for the meals they eat as opposed to a monthly food charge.

[downsizer]

I live in during the week and return to my marital home on the weekend. Off to admin tomorrow!

[jindabyne]

Oh dear, wrong side again Newt.

[newt]

Wrong side of the border!!!

[jindabyne]

Is there a wrong side - Merry Cringe ;)

[Avionker]

Could you be any more patronising?

Do you live in Scotland? If so you had your chance to vote. If you don’t , and I don’t believe you do, then why does it concern you?

The people of Scotland voted the SNP into power in democratic elections. At the next Holyrood elections the people of Scotland will decide who is fit to form the Scottish government, and quite frankly the way Brexit is been handled I would not be surprised if the SNP retained their mandate.

Yes I live in Scotland and voted to remain so maybe you would like to adjust your post Avionker!

Fine, you live in Scotland, therefore it does concern you. Had you lived in Norfolk, which I thought you did, it would not.

The Scottish government were elected by the people of Scotland. Assuming you voted in the Holyrood elections you took part in the democratic process that saw the SNP elected. Obviously not the result you wanted but that’s democracy.

I think it’s safe to say that you feel that the democratically elected Scottish Government do not reflect your views and beliefs? Not a nice feeling is it?

That feeling of not been represented by the democratically elected government is what the majority of the Scottish people have suffered for years, with regards to the U.K. government. That is what brought the SNP to prominence in Scottish politics.

As to your point about voting to remain. Did I ask about that? No I didn’t.

It does puzzle me though why, as a resident of Scotland, you would suggest an end to the Barnett formula? If it is beneficial to Scotland it is beneficial to you surely? Seems a bit like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face. It might even lead to a rise in Scottish income tax rates...

[newt]

I made the point about the Barnett formula to demonstrate how out of touch the SNP are with the Union! You may not have noticed that when Mrs May called her snap election, the only good thing to come from it was the large shift away from the SNP! Large areas voted Tory, especially along the borders where I live! They recognise the problems of the border should the SNP get their way!

Oh and I do have a house in Norfolk as well!

[Avionker]

I made the point about the Barnett formula to demonstrate how out of touch the SNP are with the Union! You may not have noticed that when Mrs May called her snap election, the only good thing to come from it was the large shift away from the SNP! Large areas voted Tory, especially along the borders where I live! They recognise the problems of the border should the SNP get their way!

Oh and I do have a house in Norfolk as well!

If the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border is not an insurmountable barrier to Brexit then the Scotland/England border should be a breeze to sort out in comparison don’t you think?

[newt]

I do not! Furthermore, we have not yet seen the exact solution to the Irish border! The driving force behind it is rather different than the Scottish Border!

[Timelord]

Whether the SNP government is good for the people of Scotland is not the point. The point is that since forever UK service people, wherever they are posted in the world, pay the tax rate set by the U.K. Government which they get to vote for . Not the rate set by the government of the country in which they find themselves which they do not get to vote for. Unless their tour in Scotland happens to coincide with a Holyrood election that is the situation UK service people will find themselves in.

[Avionker]

Time lord

I agree whole heartedly. The fact that this was not addressed prior to Tax Varying powers been devolved is the root of the problem.

As much as people may want to blame them, I don’t think the SNP, or indeed any Scottish party can be blamed for that. A Westminster screw up, surely?

[longer ron]

As much as people may want to blame them, I don’t think the SNP, or indeed any Scottish party can be blamed for that. A Westminster screw up, surely?

100% SNP screw up for sure - they do not have a clue what they are doing - and yes I do live in scotland so I am qualified to have an opinion ;).

[Timelord]

I think it's simple. Both the Westminster and Holyrood administration forgot about members of the armed forces. Not for the first time either.

[Timelord]

So now we have it. By my fag packet calculations I reckon that the Station Commander Lossiemouth will be taxed £1000 more than the Station Commander Conningsby. Anyone earning more than £33000 will be worse off.
Good luck to manning getting people to go to Lossie!

And to the NHS Scotland trying to recruit consultants!

[air pig]

So now we have it. By my fag packet calculations I reckon that the Station Commander Lossiemouth will be taxed £1000 more than the Station Commander Conningsby. Anyone earning more than £33000 will be worse off.
Good luck to manning getting people to go to Lossie!

And to the NHS Scotland trying to recruit consultants!

And nurses on band 5 who work nights bank holidays and weekends as well, vote winner I think not.

[The Old Fat One]

Shout out to timelord for calling it as it is.

The consequences for the military (and probably some others as well) are nothing to do with party politics...just cock up and complacency - as usual!! Seen it all before.

And people of the UK, wherever they rest their head, will (and should!) take account of the tax divergence and, if it bothers them, include in their life planning decisions.

For my part, I could not give a **** about 1% here or there...but then I don't earn £100K a year :( :( :(

[haltonapp]

So what we have now, a posting to Lossiemouth, not only puts you a long way from your family and friends, unless you are jockanese, puts you in a higher tax bracket! Also you want F35 personnel to spend time afloat and be based there, a perfect storm!

[Billy the Fish]

Maybe it's not. Has anyone actually checked?

There is DiN and personnel based in Scotland are considered Scottish Tax payers which is going to prove a nightmare for Manning who struggle to get people to serve up there now let alone after their tax bill goes up an extra £700 for a Sqn Ldr. LoA for Scotland might be the answer!

[Billy the Fish]

So what we have now, a posting to Lossiemouth, not only puts you a long way from your family and friends, unless you are jockanese, puts you in a higher tax bracket! Also you want F35 personnel to spend time afloat and be based there, a perfect storm!
Spot on, who would want to be in manning trying to sell this to the future Lightning Force!

[Timelord]

I repeat my invitation to anyone who feels sufficiently strongly about this to e mail [email protected]

[cats_five]

So what we have now, a posting to Lossiemouth, not only puts you a long way from your family and friends, unless you are jockanese, puts you in a higher tax bracket! Also you want F35 personnel to spend time afloat and be based there, a perfect storm!

Apparently "no one earning less than £33,000 in Scotland will pay more tax they do now. " Not sure how many members of the forces that applies to.

It's not simply a forces issue either, there are plenty of firms with employees both sides of the border.

[langleybaston]

The above has, fortunately, "nothing to do with me!"

Nevertheless:

If I have, or had, any finger on the pulse of English [sic] sentiment it is that some inducement to live and work in Scotland is highly desirable.

When I was offered a P Met O slot on promotion, it was Leuchars or Bawtry. This was literally a no brainer. The decision was based on ignorance, not experience, but took into account language difficulties, short winter days, cold winter nights and nasty biting cleggs or whatever. And the bagpipes.

There are probably many still serving who have similar baggage, exacerbated by the outpourings of dislike by the SNP leader.

To add penalties to such Scottish postings seems counter-productive..

[Dan Gerous]

The SNP also pledged a pay rise for public sector workers. Does that include Armed Forces too or are we all suddenly ‘English’ again?



Defence isn't a devolved power.:p

[PPRuNeUser0211]

No offence to anyone this might have an impact on, but I'd really like to point out that if you're chimfing about losing £700 quid a year on a posting to Lossie, god help you if you ever get posted to Odiham. Frankly, cost of living change will far, far outweigh the tax!

(I do also appreciate that no one wants a posting to Odiham, but that's bugger all to do with the money!)

[Pontius Navigator]

Pda, whilst the CoL down south may be higher there are many other advantages. Shorter distances, more shops, amenities, activities, more daylight in winter, warmer and so on. It is no question why people prefer the south coast to the empty north coast.

Back in the 70s there were several senior officers that refused Lossiemouth and promotion to gp capt. ISK was different as St Mawgan was the only alternative.

IIRC there was a similar tax issue back in the 70s. I don't remember if it came to fruition, but it depended if you were in quarters or private, and spouses working or some such.

[Pontius Navigator]

It was mentioned earlier that HM Forces are taxed at UK rates world wide and MOD deducts tax due under PAYE for HMRC. Who will handle the deductions for WJK?

Who will be liable for the additional tax? In other words, what will constitute residence for tax purposes? Will someone on a course for 6 months be taxed or what? If you are resident but deployed, will you be taxed?

I know the RAF used to be creative with qualifying periods where it vCard suited them. A course duration might be set to avoid MQ qualification.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Pontius

I don't disagree about the quality of life argument at all, but purely financially I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that on 'average' HM forces members are financially better off in the south of England (particularly those paying for child care for example). If you include anybody that doesn't live in service provided accommodation then that gap widens eye wateringly.

Personally I'd say Lincolnshire is the ideal compromise on paper... But then you go there....

[Pontius Navigator]

Pda, agree 're pure finance. Also Lincolnshire though we are moving but could not afford to move out of Lincolnshire. In many respects Lincolnshire is similar to the Moray area as I remember it. Long distances to anywhere, limited range of shops and so on though the internet levels that playing field.

[Roland Pulfrew]

though the internet levels that playing field.

Not strictly true. The last operational RAF flying base in Scotland is in an IV postcode - many internet companies view IV postcodes as "remote" and thus add delivery charges, even though a significant chunk (the majority) of the postcode is Mainland UK. Petrol prices in the area are, or were, significantly higher than the south of Scotland/England. Food prices were also often higher, even if locally grown. Childcare charges were also similar unless you are using a Norland Nannie or Montessori Nursery School down south. Cost of living between Odiham and Lossie will be different in many ways, but probably not as different as some might think.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Roland - fair point! Though I'd suggest as soon as you pay for your own accommodation one's eyes don't water quite as much up north! Lord knows what they're going to do with future accommodation model to sort that!

[Party Animal]

This issue was major news on BBC Breakfast tv this morning for viewers in Scotland. Sounds like someone has raised the argument upwards but the bottom line soundbite was that 'MOD is looking into a special allowance for servicemen/women based in Scotland who are being penalised by the new Scottish Tax rules..'

So no clear direction yet but at least our Whitehall warriors are aware there is a problem....

[Easy Street]

1) Service personnel based outside Scotland during the last Holyrood election and subsequently assigned to Lossiemouth took no part in the democratic process which resulted in the recent tax increase. The 'democratic choice' argument advanced by an earlier poster is entirely bogus.

2) The fact that the proceeds of the tax rise are being used, in part, to fund a public sector pay rise makes the issue doubly toxic given that service personnel will not be included, Armed Forces pay being a matter for Westminster.

Now that the matter has been brought to light I can't see it passing the political 'smell test' and some kind of fudged solution seems inevitable. One would hope that any funds used to compensate personnel stationed in Scotland will come from Holyrood's newly-enlarged coffers and not the MoD's already-stretched ones.

[Heathrow Harry]

How do the 'Mericans handle it? If you are posted to a different State you have different Sales Tax and Income tax in many states..................

[Onceapilot]

How do the 'Mericans handle it? If you are posted to a different State you have different Sales Tax and Income tax in many states..................

HH
Interesting but, UK Gov played a blinder when we raised the issue of US vs UK taxation last time with deployed taxation....they gave the OP allowance of about the lowest rankers tax...for everyone! :mad: Wonder if they will apply that to this situation. I think they might! :*

OAP

[vascodegama]

HH

I seem to remember that an exchange Officer said that they have the choice of which state to file taxes in.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

HH - I believe you're right. They can nominate a 'primary residence' a bit like us, but that can be hypothetical.

Out of interest, anyone know what happens if you're married/unaccompanied and live in the mess in Scotland 5 days a week, commuting south of the border on weekends?

[Chinny Crewman]

HH - I believe you're right. They can nominate a 'primary residence' a bit like us, but that can be hypothetical.

Out of interest, anyone know what happens if you're married/unaccompanied and live in the mess in Scotland 5 days a week, commuting south of the border on weekends?

PBA the DIN refers to main residence. In your example main residence would be S of the border so no additional tax due. IIRC the examples in the DIN are v similar to your scenario.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Thanks for that. Yet another reason to own a small flat somewhere far away!

[Melchett01]

1) Service personnel based outside Scotland during the last Holyrood election and subsequently assigned to Lossiemouth took no part in the democratic process which resulted in the recent tax increase. The 'democratic choice' argument advanced by an earlier poster is entirely bogus.

2) The fact that the proceeds of the tax rise are being used, in part, to fund a public sector pay rise makes the issue doubly toxic given that service personnel will not be included, Armed Forces pay being a matter for Westminster.

Now that the matter has been brought to light I can't see it passing the political 'smell test' and some kind of fudged solution seems inevitable. One would hope that any funds used to compensate personnel stationed in Scotland will come from Holyrood's newly-enlarged coffers and not the MoD's already-stretched ones.

It will be interesting to see how they do play it as there are definitely some potential poo traps. Give an allowance for extra costs in Scotland and no doubt others will try to argue for allowances elsewhere e.g. reintroduction of London allowances that were largely scrapped to fund austerity. Worst case, recognising regional differences could well be seized on by those who oppose nationwide public sector pay agreements. For once I actually have a degree of sympathy for the Pay Colonels trying to unravel this one without triggering second & third order consequences.

[Party Animal]

I would have thought it an easy one to fix; all UK MOD employees pay a standard rate of tax as set by HMG, wherever they are posted around the world. Of course the HMG rate would be based on English taxation levels. Ergo, everyone gets paid the same income per rank/level/grade and everyone pays the same tax!


Isn't this a similar case with CILOCT?

[Heathrow Harry]

"MOD employees" could mean anyone who is a Civil Servant and may be hired and be in the same location for years eg at Bristol or C London or Coulport

Better to restrict it to serving personnel in the Armed Forces who can be posted without the option of refusing - the numbers would be much smaller and so the "loss" to the Scots that much less

[Melchett01]

I would have thought it an easy one to fix; all UK MOD employees pay a standard rate of tax as set by HMG, wherever they are posted around the world. Of course the HMG rate would be based on English taxation levels. Ergo, everyone gets paid the same income per rank/level/grade and everyone pays the same tax!


Isn't this a similar case with CILOCT?

Party Animal,

I believe that’s the argument they use to justify why UK forces don’t get tax free pay in operational areas when allies such as US personnel do. Would seem to be a sensible thing to say you’re employed by the MOD based out of London and therefore pay London tax rates. I’m sure wee Jimmy Krankie would kick off though claiming that yet again Whitehall was undermining the Scottish governement’s right to set taxes and generate funding thereby turning it into yet another independence whinge.

[Blacksheep]

I don’t know about today’s arrangements, but when I served I was paid from the RAF budget (i.e. Whitehall) and my pay was credited to my bank - which remained Barclays in Witney wherever in UK I happened to serve. Tax, GP & NIS all deducted at source. Where would Scotland come into the equation? It appears that Scottish taxation is being improperly applied. (Thinks: I didn’t even pay council tax when living in or living in AMQ.)

[Pontius Navigator]

As I said earlier, where will the new tax rates be applied? MOD?

What criteria will be used to charge jock tax? Will the rate be refunded for detachments out of Scotland, is so what period would count. Similarly for detachments in? Nightmare.

[alfred_the_great]

As I said earlier, where will the new tax rates be applied? MOD?

What criteria will be used to charge jock tax? Will the rate be refunded for detachments out of Scotland, is so what period would count. Similarly for detachments in? Nightmare.

If you were to read the DIN, that would all become clear.

[olddog]

While we're at it what about veterans (Pensioners)? I served in the UK armed forces whilst earning my RAF pensions. My pensions are paid into an English Bank by an English Agency and are taxed at source - but using a Scottish Tax Code! Granted, I choose to live in Scotland but that doesn't make me Scottish!

[Pontius Navigator]

Atg, please enlighten us

[Timelord]

Black sheep, Old dog and P-N. The only thing that matters is the address of your main residence. If it's in Scotland you pay Scottish rates of tax regardless of where your money comes from, where it is banked or how long you are away on detachment.
Coverage of the issue in some Scottish papers today with suggestions of an LOA type arrangement. Someone in Whitehall / Westminster seems to care.

[vascodegama]

Timelord

Does that mean that if you own a house in England that you declare it as your main residence ie SFQ is only temp then you don’t pay Scottish tax.

[cats_five]

How many people in the forces earn more than £33k? And if there is some sort of arrangement to reduce their extra tax, will there also be one so that the lesser paid pay English tax not the reduced (for them) Scottish rate?

[The Old Fat One]

will there also be one so that the lesser paid pay English tax not the reduced (for them) Scottish rate?

excellent point!

The Law of Unintended Consequences...a source of bountiful mirth and merriment :):):):):)

[Timelord]

Vasco, Yes in theory but you might have to prove that you spent x days there and that it wasn't rented to someone else. Where that would leave you when you try and get your kids in school or access health care I have no idea.

[Timelord]

Cats five and TOFU. Mid range army corporals earn about £33000 - so everyone above that. The only people better off in Scotland are the very low paid and I'm not sure it will help many people in the armed forces.

[Pontius Navigator]

Timelord so a single in Mess could become liable while attached and try and claim exemption while detached.

[Timelord]

Timelord so a single in Mess could become liable while attached and try and claim exemption while detached.

Depends where he/she declares their main residence to be. Attachments / detachments make no difference.

[Onceapilot]

Depends where he/she declares their main residence to be. Attachments / detachments make no difference.

Didn't alot of MP's have problems with this? :E

OAP

[vascodegama]

Can't you just keep flipping your main residence-like MPs do?

[Timelord]

Can't you just keep flipping your main residence-like MPs do?
If you are still serving when the kids go to university-that is the time to acquire a Scottish address!

[cats_five]

Cats five and TOFU. Mid range army corporals earn about £33000 - so everyone above that. The only people better off in Scotland are the very low paid and I'm not sure it will help many people in the armed forces.

That's a lot of money - well above what most people in civi street earn. But it doesn't really answer my question of what percentage would pay more under the proposed Scottish income tax? I have no idea of what the split between different ranks is.

[Party Animal]

And if there is some sort of arrangement to reduce their extra tax, will there also be one so that the lesser paid pay English tax not the reduced (for them) Scottish rate?


Which is why an LOA system would be flawed. You would have to give money to those earning above 33k and take money off the juniors set to pay less tax! The whole argument should start with uniformity and every serviceman/woman should pay the same rates of tax wherever they may find themselves posted or wherever they should choose to domicile themselves during their military careers. If a Scottish offset was demanded by 'wee Jimmy Shrek', then this could probably be achieved although as noted, the winners and losers may in fact balance out.

[Wander00]

What seems really odd, and forgive me if someone has made the point earlier, surely the Jock tax will be the only instance where service personnel are not treated tax-wise as "all of one company". That cannot be just or right.

[Heathrow Harry]

55% of Scots will pay less,45% will pay more

[The Old Fat One]

What seems really odd, and forgive me if someone has made the point earlier, surely the Jock tax will be the only instance where service personnel are not treated tax-wise as "all of one company". That cannot be just or right.

I agree...but it has happened before. Back in the early nineties, two items of legislation (Poll Tax and the brand new Child Support Agency) threw service people under the bus in the name of political contingency. The original poll tax was introduced in Scotland first - one of the reasons the words "Margaret Thatcher" is synonymous in Scotland with the words "Evil ****" - and its introduction caused a major stink with junior ranks living in **** hole accommodation and being charged an arm and a leg for doing so.

The CSA was even worse, because Scotland operates under entirely different (and functional!) family law and for a lengthy period of time neither the CSA nor the Scottish Courts recognised each other!!!

I know of one service mate who had a complete nervous breakdown as a result of both the Scottish Courts and the CSA chasing him (in a pretty intimidating fashion) for huge sums of wonga, in total way in excess of what he was actually being paid!! He never flew again.

And where was the Service support when all this was going on...where indeed?

[cats_five]

55% of Scots will pay less,45% will pay more

Do 45% of Scots earn more than £33k? Really? Got a source for that?

[Chinny Crewman]

Can't you just keep flipping your main residence-like MPs do?

Residence for tax purposes is a matter for the individual and HMRC. One factor they will consider is where your family are. Consequently I think it unlikely you could live in SFA with wife and kids whilst claiming a house in England is your main residence.

[Chinny Crewman]

Whilst we all know a DIN should not be released outside of the service environment quite often they are. If you Google the relevant DIN if it has been released it will usually show up. Just to remind everyone the DIN regarding this issue is:

2015DIN01-215

[Heathrow Harry]

Cats 5

Its not earnings its tax. 45%will pay more. That s a BBC sourced number. £33k is an indicator but it will probably catch pensions, investment income etc etc

[cats_five]

Cats 5

Its not earnings its tax. 45%will pay more. That s a BBC sourced number. £33k is an indicator but it will probably catch pensions, investment income etc etc

If 45% will pay more then I would have thought 45% have taxable income over £33k which seems quite astonishing.

I found a link and it's not a BBC figure, it's the BBC reporting Derek Mackay's figure - he's the Scottish Finance Secretary:

Scottish income tax changes unveiled - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-42356953)

The Scotsman says "the median, or typical, gross salary in Scotland for all employees as of April 2017 was £23,150"

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/how-much-is-the-average-wage-in-scotland-1-4626564

I've not found good data for the various deciles.

[Timelord]

This subject was brought up at PMQs today and the PM confirmed that the Secretary of State for Defence was “looking at the issue”

[glad rag]

Derek Mackay's figure - he's the Scottish Finance Secretary

Wouldn't like to be in his shoes..

https://stackhats.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/clown-shoes.jpg

[Timelord]

In defence questions today S of S confirmed that the govt were seeking to mitigate the effects of Scottish income tax on service personnel. He hoped for an announcement before the summer recess.

[sharpend]

This subject was brought up at PMQs today and the PM confirmed that the Secretary of State for Defence was “looking at the issue”
I'm amazed by this. When I served in Germany & Cyprus, we did not pay their income tax. So why in Scotland. As for the Minister 'Looking at the issue'. Typical... a decision (if we are lucky) in 10 years time.

[OilCan]

....and your dependants did not use the local educational & medical facilities.

[serf]

Do the children of service folk qualify for free University education if based in Scotland?

[Fareastdriver]

Do the children of service folk qualify for free University education if based in Scotland?

Once they have lived there for three years then they are considered domiciled in Scotland.

[serf]

Once they have lived there for three years then they are considered domiciled in Scotland.

seems fair that they pay the same tax rates as everyone else in Scotland then!

[finningleyprince]

seems fair that they pay the same tax rates as everyone else in Scotland then!

As usual serf gets it wrong! So now there should be a different tax for single people and those that are married with kids. How about the spouse pays Scottish tax, but the Service person does not? We could embugger the tax system with multiple permutations!!

[Timelord]

seems fair that they pay the same tax rates as everyone else in Scotland then!

Serf, How many serving personnel do you think are old enough to have kids considering university?

[alfred_the_great]

I know a decent strata - senior SRs and those Officers in their early 40s.

[Fareastdriver]

You have to have higher taxes in Scotland so that after Brexit Scotland will still offer free university places to all EU countries.

[Heathrow Harry]

As usual serf gets it wrong! So now there should be a different tax for single people and those that are married with kids. How about the spouse pays Scottish tax, but the Service person does not? We could embugger the tax system with multiple permutations!!
but there is, o r was,.. ever heard of married persons allowance???

[serf]

So, a tax rise in England to pay for NHS funding is in the pipeline...where do you ask to be posted now!

[CISAtSea]

but there is, or was,.. ever heard of married persons allowance???

From what I understand from my Father, that was in the days before the military salary. Accommodation and food were free, but pay was extremely low. Supporting a family just wasn't on. We were being provided with our bedding on a weekly basis as late as 1969. This was all replaced by the Military Salary in the early 70s. We also started paying rent and food then as well.

[Fareastdriver]

I have just had my new tax code. They lowered it to take account of Ayatollah Sturgeon's tax increases. As it will probably be 'adjusted' at the end of this month it looks like I am going to take a hit.

[vascodegama]

CISA

I think HH was referring to a previous tax allowance (still available I believe to v senior citizens). The allowance you allude to was called marriage allowance and paid to over 25 year old married personnel (not sure if the wife had to be as well). You are right that Military salary changed all that-it was also the start of "bean stealing".

[Timelord]

Announced today that personnel will receive compensation for extra tax paid in Scotland. Well done Douglas Ross and other MPs. That must be close to a record for a bringing an injustice to the attention of MoD and getting it sorted.

[MATELO]

CISA

I think HH was referring to a previous tax allowance (still available I believe to v senior citizens). The allowance you allude to was called marriage allowance and paid to over 25 year old married personnel (not sure if the wife had to be as well). You are right that Military salary changed all that-it was also the start of "bean stealing".

MARRIED COUPLES ALLOWANCE. Born before 6th April 1935 to qualify.

[SLXOwft]

I presume this will have been communicated to those affected. Joint MoD - Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland annoucement.

permanent-protection-from-higher-tax-for-military-personnel-in-scotland (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/permanent-protection-from-higher-tax-for-military-personnel-in-scotland)

The renewed measures, which will now apply indefinitely rather than being renewed annually, will protect nearly two thirds of all armed forces personnel liable for Scottish Income Tax and required to pay more in tax. They will also help with recruitment and retention, particularly as many of those affected are personnel with specialist skills, such as aircraft and submarine engineers.

By guaranteeing a permanent Scottish Income Tax Mitigation, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) is providing ongoing certainty to our armed forces. The minimum amount of mitigation that will be paid will remain at £12 and the maximum cap will be reviewed annually following the Scottish Government’s announcement on tax rates and thresholds.

The financial compensation cap for armed forces personnel liable for Scottish Income Tax in Tax Year 2020/21 will remain at £2,200 following the last Scottish Government budget in March 2020.The estimated cost to the MOD is expected to be £6.8-million in financial year 2021/22.