Turkey looking to acquire AV-8Bs?!!!

[Rhino power]

Interesting...

Turkey seeks to buy Harriers as an interim measure until F-35Bs are ready | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/76200/turkey-seeks-to-buy-harriers-as-an-interim-measure-until-f-35bs-are-ready)

-RP

[ORAC]

As has been remarked elsewhere, when you consider when the AV-8Bs might be available and then the time to transfer the, train engineers and aircrew and bring them all up to FOC standard - against the fact that Turkey already plans to buy F-35Bs - it shows up starkly the lack of faith they put in the F-35B in reaching either a full FOC block 4 standard and a full production.....

[Heathrow Harry]

"Turkey first approached the United Kingdom about the purchase of Harriers but then turned to the United States for the AV-8B in the inventory of the US Marine Corps because the aircraft have not been used by the UK armed forces since 2010."

Just when we need the money .......

[Not_a_boffin]

The likelihood of sufficient frames (with enough FI left) being available as the USMC retire them, might just be a bit of an issue, never mind the DLoD elements ORAC refers to.


One might also like to ponder the implications of the statement that "Turkey first approached the United Kingdom about the purchase of Harriers but then turned to the United States for the AV-8B in the inventory of the US Marine Corps because the aircraft have not been used by the UK armed forces since 2010." Assuming that the approach was recent (ie within the last year), it tends to say more about the "competence" of their AF than any lack of faith in F35. It's not like we binned the Harrier a couple of months ago, is it?

[sandiego89]

As has been remarked elsewhere, when you consider when the AV-8Bs might be available and then the time to transfer the, train engineers and aircrew and bring them all up to FOC standard - against the fact that Turkey already plans to buy F-35Bs - it shows up starkly the lack of faith they put in the F-35B in reaching either a full FOC block 4 standard and a full production.....


Or it shows that they may not yet have the money for the F-35B and see the AV-8B as a good transition platform. Do you really want to jump into the STOVL game with zero STOVL/VSTOL experience? and with no twin seat F-35's around? I note most of the scheduled and mused B users have Harrier experience...


I do note there is quite a fleet of gently used GR7/GR9 Harriers sitting quietly in the US desert....

[DirtyProp]

Is Turkey buying a lot of weapons recently or is it just my impression?

[melmothtw]

Or it shows that they may not yet have the money for the F-35B and see the AV-8B as a good transition platform. Do you really want to jump into the STOVL game with zero STOVL/VSTOL experience? and with no twin seat F-35's around?

Israel, Singapore, Japan, and Australia have all been touted as potential future F-35B operators, so are all of them going to have to buy surplus Harriers first? Also, how many current UK F-35B and USMC F-35B pilots have Harrier experience, and how will the future pilots get this Harrier experience?

From my very limited understanding, there are no similarities between flying the Harrier (fully manual - juggling and balancing levers and controls) and the F-35B (fully automatic - press a button and use the stick to point the aircraft where you want it to go). It is hard to see what training value a future F-35B pilot might get from the Harrier.

I do note there is quite a fleet of gently used GR7/GR9 Harriers sitting quietly in the US desert....

They were in pieces last time I saw them pictured, a few years ago now.

[Wander00]

Just to be slightly controversial, I don't think we should be supplying Erdogan and his regime with anything more lethal than a box of water pistols. Any weapons are most likely to be used on his own people or the Kurds

[PhilipG]

They might have more luck with India that has a few Sea Harriers now surplus...

[Not_a_boffin]

Less than 5 to be precise. There's more with engines in them at Siskin than in India.

[sandiego89]

Israel, Singapore, Japan, and Australia have all been touted as potential future F-35B operators, so are all of them going to have to buy surplus Harriers first? Also, how many current UK F-35B and USMC F-35B pilots have Harrier experience, and how will the future pilots get this Harrier experience?

From my very limited understanding, there are no similarities between flying the Harrier (fully manual - juggling and balancing levers and controls) and the F-35B (fully automatic - press a button and use the stick to point the aircraft where you want it to go). It is hard to see what training value a future F-35B pilot might get from the Harrier.



They were in pieces last time I saw them pictured, a few years ago now.


Points taken, especially on the reported ease of the B in transition- I was more focused on the lack of funds making the Harrier perhaps a more realistic ambition for Turkey. They have recently said they want a carrier as well, and I just don't see the funds for a carrier and a B airwing. Japan and Australia already have carriers (even if they won't admit it) that could take the B with a little imagination.


The US, Spain, UK and Italy already have pretty good doctrine and experience with STOVL.


And I believe the ex UK GR7/9's simply had the wing removed and were bagged in the USA. Not really sure they are "in pieces" as in parted out. Happy to be corrected- still a pretty good deal when the whole fleet was bought for the cost of perhaps 1.3 F-35B's :eek:

[Not_a_boffin]

And I believe the ex UK GR7/9's simply had the wing removed and were bagged in the USA. Not really sure they are "in pieces" as in parted out. Happy to be corrected- still a pretty good deal when the whole fleet was bought for the cost of perhaps 1.3 F-35B's :eek:


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/03/article-2153741-135F2F9F000005DC-24_634x409.jpg


That's the ones at AMARC. Many more RTP @ MCAS Cherry Point AIUI.

[melmothtw]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/03/article-2153741-135F2F9F000005DC-24_634x409.jpg


That's the ones at AMARC. Many more RTP @ MCAS Cherry Point AIUI.

Taken in 2012. If used for spares, as intended, not sure how much will be left after 5 years.

I'm sure the story is correct that the Turks are looking at Harriers. It just makes no sense for them to do so.

[Brat]

it shows up starkly the lack of faith they put in the F-35B in reaching either a full FOC block 4 standard and a full production.....

It shows up starkly that in the light of continuing differences with their NATO ‘allies’ they are cognisant that the F-35’s may not be coming their way.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/891020/russia-putin-erdogan-turkey-jerusalem-israel-netanyahu-donald-trump-latest

The USMC Harriers were intended to go on well into the 2020’s and 72 RAF and RN Harriers together with the complete spares inventory much of which was near new were recently bought. While a relatively complex machine to fly and in earlier time had a problematic accident rate, recent accident rates have fallen considerably.

Not quite the ‘clapped out’ machines many seem to think. Originally designed to have a 6,000-hour airframe it has been determined that the Harrier will be able to fly well beyond the original 6,000-hour estimate and now estimated to have used less than 40% of useful life.

The USMC operate AV-8B(R)+ specification Harriers and 17 TAV-8B twin-seat trainers, delivered from September 1985. All TAV-8Bs have undergone the AV-8 Trainer Upgrade Programme (T-UP), which included new wiring, new back-up battery, enhanced night vision capabilities, avionics improvements and replacement of the F406 engine with the more powerful F408.

They have around 112 combat-coded Harriers, approx 34 AV-8B Harrier II Night Attack aircraft and 76 AV-8B Harrier II+, (difference is the Raytheon APG-65 multi-mode radar).
With the radar, capable of acting as an air defence, all-weather precision bomber and reconnaissance aircraft, and when married to the AIM-120 AMRAAM, fleet air defence as well.

Recent improvements, full integration of the Gen 4 LITENING targeting pod, which provides enhanced acquisition and targeting, allowing it to transmit target data to ROVER (remote operational video enhanced receiver) via Automatic Target Handoff System which exchanges target location and imagery with other aircraft or troops on the ground.

They are also working on full Link 16 network integration for the radar equipped Harriers to allow secure exchange of near-real-time data among linked aircraft, ships and ground stations. With the addition of the 500 pound JDAM, and GBu-54 Laser JDAM, this is now the weapon of choice for most missions.

Other recent additions include the Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System II (APKWS II) laser guided Hydra 70 2.75 inch rocket with greater accuracy and reduction of collateral damage during close air support missions for the Marines on the ground, it’s primary mission.

Designed to be operated from the front lines using forward arming and refuelling positions to keep it near the front lines, it has during a number of recent conflicts demonstrated its usefulness and versatility and is still a very potent piece of kit but with the deployment of the F-35B’s are now being considered as more dispensable.

In the Gulf War of 1990-91, during Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm AV-8B Harriers totaled nearly 4,000 flights against Iraqi targets.
In 1999, AV-8B's in Yugoslavia during Operation Allied Force.
In 2001, AV-8B's in Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan during the earliest operations against the Taliban after 9-11.
Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003, acting primarily in support of USMC ground units.
In 2011, USMC AV-8Bs were launched from USS Kearsarge in the Mediterranean Sea in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn, enforcing the UN no-fly zone over Libya.

Presently been deployed over Iraq against Islamic State (IS) forces with surveillance operations continued after the start of Operation Inherent Resolve against IS militants.

The reason the Turks could be expressing interest is as a possible face saving alternative in case they were blocked from procuring the F-35’s.

[chopper2004]

Laughingly rem8nds me of Dale Brown thriller - Executive Intent where Turkey is the bad guy as their all out vengeance against PPK does not stop at invading Iraq and targeting the coalition post Iraqi Freedom ...

Also in the beginn8ng chapters that the Turks has been sold the A-10 Warthog and F-15E

Cheers

[Rhino power]

It shows up starkly that in the light of continuing differences with their NATO ‘allies’ they are cognisant that the F-35’s may not be coming their way... The reason the Turks could be expressing interest [in AV-8Bs] is as a possible face saving alternative in case they were blocked from procuring the F-35’s.

But since the Turk's interest in the F-35B is only notional along with operating a carrier/s, and having signed up for the F-35A initially, assuming Donald's Trump decides F-35s of any variant are deemed out of the question, why bother with the Harrier at all, surely additional conventional (not necessarily western) aircraft would be more obvious a choice?

-RP

[sandiego89]

....Many more RTP @ MCAS Cherry Point AIUI.


I saw at least 20 AV-8B hulks in a fenced off area at Cherry Point just last month. And with more USMC units transitioning to the F-35B it does seem that there will be quite a few Harriers to be had....


Great info Brat on the recent Harrier work.

[gijoe]

Just to be slightly controversial, I don't think we should be supplying Erdogan and his regime with anything more lethal than a box of water pistols. Any weapons are most likely to be used on his own people or the Kurds

...don't know about controversial, entirely sensible thinking.

This is a tinderbox autocracy parading as a democracy.

[Brat]

Thanks sandiego.

But since the Turk's interest in the F-35B is only notional along with operating a carrier/s, and having signed up for the F-35A initially, assuming Donald's Trump decides F-35s of any variant are deemed out of the question, why bother with the Harrier at all...

The Turkish Navy have expressed interest in Ocean...
(also wanted by Brazil), Brazil hopes to buy, commission UK?s HMS Ocean by June 2018 | Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/76245/brazil-hopes-to-buy-commission-uk-s-hms-ocean-by-june-2018)
...and or possibly Bulwark or Albion. They had a good look at Ocean during the recent exercise and liked what they saw.

While flying Harriers on and off Ocean is possible, she has 5 spots and can be used as a Harrier ferry, she does not have heat strengthened/cooled flight deck so operating Harriers for any extended period would probably damage them without major changes. She also lacks the ski-jump which would be required for a max loaded Harrier.

Harrier ops require relatively large amounts of spares,supplies and ordinance. Spares and tools can be stored in the hanger, ordinance however poses a problem. They need dedicated deep magazines, lifts, and handling equipment. Ocean was designed to operate helicopters, with limited amounts of ordinance in comparison.

It would require significant changes, but possible/doable to change her for a Harrier Carrier during a refit and with a chance that USMC Harriers could be coming on the market.

Turkey is already pursuing a marine aviation capability with the TCG Anadolu, which is under construction.