Great support from Dragon Air captains.. NOT

[PanZa-Lead]

Cathay captains have had verbal and written support on various social media (yammer) from engineers and flight attendants BUT not a peep from our brothers at Dragon Air.

[Gnadenburg]

What’s Yammer?

[PanZa-Lead]

What’s Yammer?

You should be on it supporting the guys who are sticking it to management

[snoop doggy dog]

What's Yammer?

[cxorcist]

Apparently, DPA thinks their lot will be better if CX takes more from AOA pilots. That way there will be more crumbs left for them. Wise up!!!

[Weary traveller]

I can't believe what I'm hearing here. Seriously? The DPA went to extraordinary lengths when this whole debacle began with advice, offers of assistance and confirmation of good intentions and was told from the outset by the AOA that we weren't needed. Now that things have deteriorated we're being abused for not stepping up? Where does this crap come from?

[el commandante]

What's Yammer - that was only funny the first time. The same with A50.
Its like a child who repeats and repeats what was funny the first time and made you laugh but then you have to tell it to stop.

But please support the thread on Yammer, thanks.

[raven11]

Weary Traveller...really? You can’t see for yourself what’s going on and then act from your own volition?

If not, then stay in LNAV/NAV and keep flying toward that CB in the window...all will be fine.

[Shot Nancy]

What’s LNAV?

[PanZa-Lead]

I can't believe what I'm hearing here. Seriously? The DPA went to extraordinary lengths when this whole debacle began with advice, offers of assistance and confirmation of good intentions and was told from the outset by the AOA that we weren't needed. Now that things have deteriorated we're being abused for not stepping up? Where does this crap come from?

Not asking for anything from the DPA. Just the odd Dragon Air captain to show support on yammer or other media for their fellow pilots. Everyone else has but nothing from Dragon Air captains shows their true colours.

[Dan Winterland]

To make a comment on Yammer, you have to be on Yammer. I think that's where the problem lies.

[Freehills]

Yep - I think you will find Yammer is for CX staff only. Not exactly surprising that KA crew (cabin & cockpit) are not that active

[cxorcist]

Yep - I think you will find Yammer is for CX staff only. Not exactly surprising that KA crew (cabin & cockpit) are not that active

Plenty active training CX Airbus JFOs from my understanding.

[Liam Gallagher]

Folks,

The enemy is most certainly not across the road at KA. The enemy is directly in front of you.

Remain focused.

[corrigin]

Folks,

The enemy is most certainly not across the road at KA. The enemy is directly in front of you.

Remain focused.

We are focused. If KA is not supporting our cause, then they are the enemy as well. It's about unity.

I certainly will not be approving any jumpseats, especially to/from Oz.

[PeeProone]

1. You’re winning, press home the advantage get your 13th month and get it put into your contracts while you have momentum. Don’t waste your energy starting a pointless battle when you’ve got a war to win.

2 We’re under no illusions regarding your management and now unfortunately ours.

3. How about telling your SO/JFO’s to refuse to come in the first place? Problem solved or too easy?

4. Shove your jump seats pal, not arsed.

[PanZa-Lead]

Sorry I thought Dragon were on yammer.. apologies

[Freehills]

Plenty active training CX Airbus JFOs from my understanding.

If you want them to be active on Yammer, please first ask Cathay management to give them access & accounts...

[Gnadenburg]

Hey Panza , sorry I didn’t join yammer or the CX spouses Facebook page, I thought the AOA approach to the DPA to enter into contact compliance in support of your loss of housing was more pressing.

Any KA pilot who is industraillly smitten at the moment is about as stupid as the content of this post .

I expected a concurrent industrial campaign against both groups . Mutual support is inevitable even though slow coming about .

There’s been clever management politics played keeping the two groups apart for the last decade. As we are brought together it is going to be hard to share exact goals, so a framework and direction are going to be frail and easily broken . Wise up a little.

[Dan Winterland]

Yammer us for both airlines and there are a few KA guys on it - mostly managers. But there was prctically zero take up on launch. They're just not interested.

[JY9024]

To be fair, I think the main reason for a lack of comments on social media is knowing that some will take it as an insult knowing that KA have a 13th month included in our COS.

I personally do feel for the CX guys and can't see the logic in the decision to single out the one group that has so much leverage in the ability to cost the compony money in lost efficiency.

As far as Yammar goes, a few went on in the early days to voice some concerns but CX management simply weren't interested in responding. So everyone left.

Training CX SO's, I do believe that the DPA were prepared to put a stop to it but the AOA advised against it. (Thats not confirmed)

[Avinthenews]

KA are on yammer, just less interest than us.

Many now joining yammer as first time posters to raise awareness on the current state of toxic relations in this company.

The issue I see is people keep saying "management" for once let's highlight the true problem.

It's SWIRE FFS, they are completely out of touch with their rotating management style , they don't even have a clue how far this goes back, fortunately some posts pointing out this toxic company relationship goes back to '92-94 era.

So if anyone decides to post let's stop saying management let's use the term Swire, the problem is squarely at their feet GMA primarily and secondly the DFO, both completely out of touch with FOPs as is "Ton for Tom" who's now seeing the hatred flight crew feel for this company.
In one reply he used the term SOME crew not realising it's the majority.

[Trafalgar]

Not to mention the GMA has a visceral dislike for aircrew. Must have gone to the 'School of Herbert' (most of you know what I mean by that!). There will be no peace while the Swire's insist on putting people in these jobs that missed out on 'Humanity 101' during their upbringing.

[checklistcomplete]

We mustn't judge the KA crews. Most are pondering the "me next" option. All I would say to KA crews is please don't operate any CX flights cancelled due lack of CX crew in the next few weeks. In other words do not cross the picket line. If it's got a CX flight number "go sick".
Thanks guys and girls.

[Gnadenburg]

Curtain Rod

How many are on yammer? Few would admit to it .

You want me to go into contract compliance over your housing ( whilst your trainers still train ) and you dish this rubbish up?

I’d be remeasuring what real and useful support is if I were you. Yammer?

[PanZa-Lead]

That is one of my points. Their conditions are next in line to be attacked next year and they can rely on me to show support for them when it happens. Sorry just thought their silence was deafening. I am no way trying to cause a devide between us just interested to seek out a reason

[Gnadenburg]

Is that all you are correcting ? I thought this a thread inciting stupidity .

KA Pilots are different . You need to be clear on your expectations . Few do yammer. I don’t because I find my operation in China easier using airmanship and the manuals .

Now there are some expectations of KA pilots emerging behind the scenes . Tit for tat silliness here is unhelpful and plays into our adversaries hand.

I recall you guys flying by my routes when I was in CC years ago. My expectations at the time realistic . Now times are different and your expectations of us should be a little more savvy than starting jump seat wars over yammer!

[PanZa-Lead]

There is a wonderful post on yammer by a Dragon Air captain in support. Many thanks to him and for his support

[raven11]

Gnadenburg....

Read your colleagues post on yammer if you want to see something classy....

[Gnadenburg]

I’m not on yammer nor will be anytime soon so please pm a cut and paste .

[Elac29]

We are focused. If KA is not supporting our cause, then they are the enemy as well. It's about unity.

I certainly will not be approving any jumpseats, especially to/from Oz.

Great!!
I'll be putting a stop to jump seat requests especially out of Phuket

[Elac29]

To be fair, I think the main reason for a lack of comments on social media is knowing that some will take it as an insult knowing that KA have a 13th month included in our COS.

I personally do feel for the CX guys and can't see the logic in the decision to single out the one group that has so much leverage in the ability to cost the compony money in lost efficiency.

As far as Yammar goes, a few went on in the early days to voice some concerns but CX management simply weren't interested in responding. So everyone left.

Training CX SO's, I do believe that the DPA were prepared to put a stop to it but the AOA advised against it. (Thats not confirmed)

I can confirm that is correct.
I was on DPA excecutive committee at that time. We were more than prepared to support AOA in preventing CX pilots being trained at KA. We had a meeting at our Queens Rd office with senior AOA reps and we were told that KA Training CX pilots was so far down their list of priorities that they didn't care.

[Elac29]

You should be on it supporting the guys who are sticking it to management

We never asked to be part of your CX group. We were quite happy receiving our bonus and profit share every year until the tragedy of September 2006. Now all our hard work gets spread amoungst 22000 other employees and we get close to zero. Any issues you have bought on yourselves from CX management are nothing to do with us at KA. The good news for you CX pilots is that there appears there will be a mass exodus of senior KA pilots over the next two years as we have zero confidence in CX management and their ability to " win". So there will be lots and lots of A320 command slots for you to happily fly 30-40 sectors a month in China. Happy days fellas!!!!

[Elac29]

That is one of my points. Their conditions are next in line to be attacked next year and they can rely on me to show support for them when it happens. Sorry just thought their silence was deafening. I am no way trying to cause a devide between us just interested to seek out a reason

We won't be the next to be attacked at all!
We are the cash cow in this organisation. Why do you think CX bought KA outright in 2006??
Management are far to savvy to come after KA because if they do there will be no more CX or KA

[bacou]

What are you expecting? KA captains will fight for their contract if it gets attacked,
We are still 2 different airlines and none of you at CX would survive 1 month on our roster.
If need be we’ll fight for our contract and if we don’t like the restult we’ll work somewhere else.
None of us think of KA as a permanent job.

[drfaust]

I personally fully support the CX crew in raising their objections to this undesirable practise. I believe this decision was ill conceived and believe the methodology that lead to it to be counterproductive in pretty much every respect. That being said, I technically still work for another company. I did not think it appropriate for myself (especially with such a short time here) to interject in a discussion that runs long and deep and formally does not concern my COS. That does not mean I do not support your sentiments, quite the contrary, but there is a time and a place and for me this is not it. May I also just add that although we receive a chinese new year bonus, it is contractual and as such simply part of our salary package. No KA crew receive any form of ex-gratia payment from the company, so you are not the only one’s excluded from a voluntary token of appreciation.

Should our associations decide to align their interests know that my vote would be for it. It is nonsensical in the first place for us not to work together. I have nothing to gain from your loss, neither does any other KA crew. Don’t sell your colleagues short that quickly, you have bigger fish to fry that do not involve us. That’s just my two pesetas for you.

[FreemaninHK]

Quick look at yammer should a few KA guys sticking their necks out.
I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly. There are supporters there.

[morningcoffee]

They've no time for Yammer. Too busy using their PRI25 subload tickets to kick CX crew off flights out of Oz. To think the DPA begged CX not to give them PRI 25.

Apparently.

[Trafalgar]

Ignore Morning Coffee. He is a well known management plant (and all round pathetic human being). He's just trying to cause a rift. Apparently that is the sole purpose of his life's work: cause misery. Congrats, your mother is proud i'm certain. We ALL need to work together to defeat what is undoubtedly the worst airline management in the modern world. Epic failure on every level. MC is just a tiny cog in a large machine dedicated to mistreating their most valued employees. Madness on every level. I welcome the KA pilots as brothers and sisters. Thank you for your recent support.

[checklistcomplete]

Traf,

Here Here,

All we are asking for is KA pilots morale support and not to cross picket lines. Professional respect pure and simple.

[Tumbledown]

one of the previous posts mentioned it before but it is worth highlighting the CNY payment is part of the B COS but it is at the companies discretion for the pilots on the STD contract which account for about half of the KA pilots.
The company is not paying our (STD contract) D level employees their CNY or the ex gratia payment so half the KA pilots get nothing this year also.
It seems strange therefore to be attacking us on this issue.
lets keep the baby in the bath water

[drfaust]

Well, that's actually not true. The CNY is defined in "Part 1, Conditions of Service" of the standard contract and has no voluntary or ex-gratia clause attached to it. It is simply payable, that's it.

The flying staff manual is available on the DPA website. There also seems to be confusion on the FLPS (fixed leave period scheme) only applying to B scale by COS, whereas in reality the FLPS applies to all KA pilots but the amount of leave days one is entitled to is defined in the respective COS. In my case that is 42 and stays that way, on the B scale that climbs to an eventual 48 days.

I was referring to the fact that we don't get any ex-gratia payment by definition. Everything we get paid is contractual, whereas at CX there exists such a thing as a discretionary bonus.

[morningcoffee]

Traf,

Here Here,

All we are asking for is KA pilots morale support and not to cross picket lines. Professional respect pure and simple.

And you're all fine with them shafting the more junior CX crew. Nice.

[Trafalgar]

Morning Coffee. Your attempts at sowing division and rancour are wearing a bit thin. You are a pathetic individual. Give it up, mainly because you are just not very good at it. You come across as a rather juvenile and somewhat stupid person. I suppose that's really all Swire is able to attract these days....

[cxorcist]

Did Swine ever do better than MC?

[morningcoffee]

Should any of you actually be bothered, ask your crew (if they’re commuting to Oz) how much harder it is since the beginning of the year when the changes came in. The changes the AOA said would be beneficial to CX Crew.
Or you can continue to side with your KA mates, and not give a f*ck.
Up to you.

[main_dog]

KA crew are just like us, suffering same indignities at the hands of the same mean-spirited, petty, vindictive, arrogant, intimidatory, confrontational, dismissive and condescending management. They are brothers and sisters to us and will always get a JS from me.

Eyes on the ball.

[broadband circuit]

Agree...

+1

[morningcoffee]

Saddest part of all these responses is not one says “it’s unfortunate that junior CX Crew get screwed over by the change in staff travel policy”
What a joke.

[Trafalgar]

MorningCoffee. Day by day your attempts to divide the pilots become more pathetic and juvenile. It's the less senior pilots in this company that have figure you and your kind out, seeing you for the malignancy you are. Please feel free to keep coming back for another beating though. :E

[BlunderBus]

Geez boys... grow up

[Freehills]

MC - so if it is unfortunate that junior CX crew got screwed over - then the fault lies with CX management. Last time I checked, CX staff travel policy wasn't under the control of KA pilots. But top marks for trying to **** stir!

[drfaust]

This wouldn’t even be a debate if an x amount of tickets were made available for commuting to someone’s home port.

[FreemaninHK]

MC,

What about the 3-4 dozen Phuket commuters that now ride ahead of 10 yr KA staff?
What about the PEN and KUL Senior Cabin Crew that go ahead of KA Staff?

Just because something isn't a win for you, doesn't mean it isn't a positive for other members of our team. We have a large percentage of Chinese staff.. guess what.. they go ahead of KA staff too.

At this point you must be Anna or a Director trying to stir the pot.
Anyone else see's the sense in this.

Imagine if KA started a service to Sydney.. doubt you'd be complaining about holding seniority there. Its not up to us who does what route.
We've seen that already.

[raven11]

Wow...classy guy/gal...

[Trafalgar]

Bonway. Management plant. Ignore.

[morningcoffee]

MC,

What about the 3-4 dozen Phuket commuters that now ride ahead of 10 yr KA staff?
What about the PEN and KUL Senior Cabin Crew that go ahead of KA Staff?

Just because something isn't a win for you, doesn't mean it isn't a positive for other members of our team. We have a large percentage of Chinese staff.. guess what.. they go ahead of KA staff too.

At this point you must be Anna or a Director trying to stir the pot.
Anyone else see's the sense in this.

Imagine if KA started a service to Sydney.. doubt you'd be complaining about holding seniority there. Its not up to us who does what route.
We've seen that already.

Wow, a sensible reply.

I would counter your argument by suggesting Crew using staff travel to commute out of Oz would beat everywhere KA collectively fly to by a factor of at least 5 to 1. Especially since that old chestnut Phuket is losing commuters every month.

The AOA had 6 months to look at the proposal and rejected sensible options put forward by C scalers. Why? I will never know, but this was before the membership numbers tilted in favour of those not on ARAPA. How, someone replied, this isn’t part of my employment and shouldn’t have been looked at by the AOA defies belief. Housing isn’t in my COS either.

KA pilots back in 2016 insisted this change would make no difference to staff travel for junior CX crew and that’s so far removed from the reality of 2017.

[mngmt mole]

Morning Coffee. You are starting early this morning. In your management cubicle ready to do battle? The pilots of both airlines are united against the same Swire management (you) that afflict them. Attempts to sow discord are a waste of time. We blame YOU and YOUR KIND for any ill effects your policies have caused.

[Max Reheat]

What a truly pathetic thread!

[Dan Winterland]

It doesn't say who the poster works for on Yammer. You can only identify their employer if you know the person.

[Gnadenburg]

It's not the KA guys you should be having a go at, it's the 2500 CX guys who have yet to show their unity and support on Yammer.

Yes and have a look at the survey results. Do you guys really expect many KA pilots to be on yammer? Survey participation looked lowest in the group?

I still struggle to understand how CX pilots don't think KA pilot in support. So please have a look at the survey.

[Gnadenburg]

KA pilots back in 2016 insisted this change would make no difference to staff travel for junior CX crew and that’s so far removed from the reality of 2017.

Just out of interest, why would a large number of new pilots join an offshore based airline and then look at an international commute within a few years? Is it knowing in advance the package not sufficient for Hong Kong residence? Or were they caught out without having done professional due-dilligence once here?

The FOC's were never pushed by the union. They were a deliberate strategy from your HR side to garnish expat B travel funds and offer a no-cost incentive to attract expat pilots to KA on a C scale with rapid command promotion.

18 months to command, 4 FOC tickets a year home to Joh'burg- it's worked a treat I hear.

[Trafalgar]

Why don't you focus on your own airline, and we'll do the same with ours. I can't understand why you feel so compelled to display your immaturity and bitterness about CX (oh, that's right, you were rejected by them). Carry on.

[Trafalgar]

Again, I am not sure why you feel the need to incessantly post about a company you don't even work for. Strange, and a bit pathetic actually.

[main_dog]

Well done boys, yes, that’s the spirit, let’s fight each other for the scraps in the cage, while the zoo owner rubs his hands with glee.

For goodness’ sake, let’s stop bickering amongst ourselves and keep our eye on the ball! Our problems ALL stem from the Victorian management techniques of our mill owners, and guess what, we all work in the same mill.

[Trafalgar]

Joining KA was a smart move, much better than joining CX. I was not referring to KA pilots or staff. I was referring to a370, who seems to have a pathological need to comment on CX, even though he doesn't work here. And just for reference: i'm "like more than 5"....;)