Heliair Denham EGLD closing

[rr84c]

Operations moving to Wycombe. Anyone know why?

[chevvron]

They closed their operation at Fairoaks some time ago citing a 100% increase in rental of accomodation.

[tu154]

This sounds similar to the demise of Cabair.

****e.

But a loss. Lack of investment, lack of a decent response to Q, lack of understanding of the London market and what was required to make it work, no support for good people who wanted it to succeed.

[Cows getting bigger]

....... and how is Wycombe doing? From the outside it looks like 'frying pan into fire'.

[Maff]

I think we all know there is little money in Helicopter aviation in the UK, and with only so many GA customers out there it’s going to be tough for them.
Wycombe Air Park is a ghost town now and their only customer being Helicopter Services as the fixed wing side doing the uni ppl training is also owned by heli air.

I think things will get worse before they get better, and that’s not necessarily a reflection on HA, but just the way the industry is after brexit/euro/us rates etc.

Time for outside the box thinking these days and being very flexible. Maybe why Q has done so well over the others.

[paco]

But Q is Q......

[Maff]

Does HQ do anything "outside the box"?

Isn't it just PPL training, R44 owner hangarage, maintenance and Self Fly Hire? (ie exactly what HeliAir do)

Correct, but HQ have a club atmosphere that makes owners feel welcome, and there is a personality there too. (Some like that ‘personality’, others don’t)

HQ are very very busy, over the ‘same’ offering that HeliAir had next door. There is a reason why...

[helihub]

Maybe Bickertons (Denham owners) decided not to renew the HA lease?

[toptobottom]

I think there was always a problem with ego over business sense - HA's overexpansion when it struggled with R66 certification, combined with the struggling GA market (as evidenced by the number of distressed acquisitions undertaken by HA) was always going to be a challenge. Most people I've spoken to don't have a lot of time for certain individuals at HA, who some say lack the charisma and friendly attitude that the business was once well known for and which is available in abundance at HQ. Others complain of arrogance and bullying from HA, which is intriguing behaviour given the circumstances.


The GA community is small and news of improper behaviour travels fast - people vote with their feet, so I've no doubt that EGLD won't be the last to go. I've visited a few of the other HA locations over the last couple of months - and they're also like ghost towns.. Watch his space!

[HeliboyDreamer]

What is HQ?

[toptobottom]

Try clicking this (http://bfy.tw/FV6m)

[HeliboyDreamer]

It worked thanks...

[tu154]

HQ is an example of how good a school/club can be. I know Q can be 'divisive' :). But he has a good team around him, a very nice facility, and it's a really good friendly place to visit.

[Stoey]

Well the impression I got from Heliair when I went and asked if they could do my practical conversion from FAA to JAA was not good, got told the "FAA licenses wasn't worth the plastic it was written on" and I would probably have to do a lot of training just to be able to pass the tests.
That was within the first five minutes in the door, out of the 7 minutes I spent there, and took my business elsewhere, happy to have done exactly that since it has helped me greatly careerwise since. :O

[claudia]

toptobottom"s post 12 hits the nail bang on the head!

[Draco]

I was one of Heliair’s first customers at Denham when Glenda Wild moved from another company at Wycombe in about 1994. One R22 tucked into the side of a bubble hangar... but she really brought the place alive.

[CloudHound]

He wears pseudo military jackets and tucks his chinos into his rigger boots. Good job he hasn't got a massive ego:rolleyes:

[helicopter-redeye]

I was one of Heliair’s first customers at Denham when Glenda Wild moved from another company at Wycombe in about 1994. One R22 tucked into the side of a bubble hangar... but she really brought the place alive.

I was one of Q’s first customers when his dad asked him to quit competing with him and take over Denham. One R22 tucked into a blister hanger (G-BRHN), a phone and a desk in a cupboard. Nothing comes from nothing but dust (as they say in a Denmark). That must have been 94 as well.

[[email protected]]

He wears pseudo military jackets and tucks his chinos into his rigger boots. Good job he hasn't got a massive ego now that made me spray my coffee over my keyboard:ok::ok::ok::)

[SARWannabe]

For many private pilots (especially those who can afford to own a helicopter) the appeal of flying helicopters is accompanied by a desire to buy into a lifestyle as opposed to skill alone. Sell the sizzle not the sausage, as they say. HQ has this nailed, charismatic personalities, eccentricity, flying tales, photos, memorabilia & importantly, a buy in from lots of other people from similar circles who they'd perhaps want to socialise with outside flying.

By contrast the more 'corporate' (lacklustre) approach taken by many - black trousers, polyester shirts with epaulettes and airline jumpers, feels absent of personality, adventure or intrigue. It's missing the sizzle and personalities of the sort of place you'd just pop in for a coffee on your way past...

When selling the experience to the private pilot - the fun found outside the cockpit is just as important, if not more so, than the fun in the aircraft, and this isn't achieved with coffee machines and company logos, but with people who make it interesting. However marmite or 'put on' the mysterious Q character is, he wins the appeal of a great deal of people, who have a great deal of money, and it's not by accident. Is it the best place to go for zero-commercial career training? No - without an ATO they don't even offer any commercial training. Is it a fun place to go and share quaffs with other rich intriguing owner types and fly privately? Seems so.

[[email protected]]

Sort of depends on whether you want to flaunt your wealth with like-minded people or learn to fly a helicopter for something other than that same purpose.

Not saying that is wrong but not many people's cup of tea.

[Hughes500]

How come everyone is bashing Q ?
Yes he is everything everyone has said but and it is a big BUT he along with his father has bought helicopters within reach of people who have a reasonable amount of money instead of the uber wealthy and military types.
If we all pulled together instead of slagging each other off we all might be safer, wealthier and be having more fun. Does it really matter that those who fly big helicopters think themselves as better than those who fly small ones ? Interestingly in my experience those who fly the bigger machines dont have many handling skills when it comes to flying single engine small machine, so perhaps they are not helicopter Gods they think they are. Yes those of us who fly small machines probably dont have a clue how the auto pilot / sas system etc etc work and yes we would get an approach wrong due to the performance of the heavy metal. Again does it really matter to the average Joe, no they are not interested in the 99% sheer boredom and 1% sheer terror of N Sea flying.
Personally i enjoy teaching people as much as i do lifting loads up on a 75 ft line under a 500. We all have our niche so to slag someone off because he has done well and what he wears is really unacceptable. I wear a flying suit and a helmet when teaching in a 300, doesnt bother me if you think I am a prat or whatever. The proof is in the pudding ladies and gentlemen.

[topradio]

I learned to fly with a school that unfortunately no longer exists. It fell into the category of more like HQ than HA. The instructors were mostly young and there wasn't a white shirt in sight. They made flying fun and we used to socialise out of hours. In fact I made some good friends and had some memorable experiences. They understood that most of us would go no further than the PPL(H) and that we weren't going to be flying gods. At the time I was in serious danger of buying my own machine but never quite took that step.

More recently I had been doing some continuation training/renewal with another organisation. They just knocked all the fun out of the pastime such that I DON'T FLY ANY MORE!

I am sure that there are some who would be pleased that I no longer fly as it wouldn't suit their 'professional' image to have somebody who isn't 'one of the boys' in command of an aircraft.

I suspect that there is a market for both types of schools but it does seem from the outside that the HQ model actually makes some money (I have never been there but my betting is that their car park has some very expensive metal in it) and the atmosphere attracts the more outgoing and adventurous types, just the sort that some don't want in their airspace.

[FlimsyFan]

Sell the sizzle not the sausage, as they say. HQ has this nailed, charismatic personalities, eccentricity, flying tales, photos, memorabilia & importantly, a buy in from lots of other people from similar circles who they'd perhaps want to socialise with outside flying.



This may be so, but from my experience with HQ the selling point is their knowledge and expertise on the maintenance front. Dave Cross (and his team) excels not only with an exemplary standard of work, but also by consistently demonstrating faultless customer service along with a willingness to answer his phone no matter what the time of day.

The company wide (to a man) enthusiasm and general energy directed towards flying does nothing to diminish my positive feelings towards HQ.
Say what you like about Q, but his unique brand of support for helicopters and their associated industry has left an indelible and (almost) entirely favourable impact on what is a market area suffering difficult times.

By contrast, and of course I can only speak for my personal experience, HA regularly failed to return phone calls whilst I was trying to buy a machine. I didn't hang around to see if their service dept was any better.

[FC80]

How come everyone is bashing Q ?
Yes he is everything everyone has said but and it is a big BUT he along with his father has bought helicopters within reach of people who have a reasonable amount of money instead of the uber wealthy and military types.
If we all pulled together instead of slagging each other off we all might be safer, wealthier and be having more fun. Does it really matter that those who fly big helicopters think themselves as better than those who fly small ones ? Interestingly in my experience those who fly the bigger machines dont have many handling skills when it comes to flying single engine small machine, so perhaps they are not helicopter Gods they think they are. Yes those of us who fly small machines probably dont have a clue how the auto pilot / sas system etc etc work and yes we would get an approach wrong due to the performance of the heavy metal. Again does it really matter to the average Joe, no they are not interested in the 99% sheer boredom and 1% sheer terror of N Sea flying.
Personally i enjoy teaching people as much as i do lifting loads up on a 75 ft line under a 500. We all have our niche so to slag someone off because he has done well and what he wears is really unacceptable. I wear a flying suit and a helmet when teaching in a 300, doesnt bother me if you think I am a prat or whatever. The proof is in the pudding ladies and gentlemen.

Is it not somewhat ironic that in a post talking about all pulling together you do a pretty good job of alienating anyone who flies anything bigger than a Hughes 500?

[md 600 driver]

Hughes500

Well said can’t add anymore

[TOT]

Hughes 500

The content of your post is spot on.

[Bell_ringer]

Does it really matter that those who fly big helicopters think themselves as better than those who fly small ones ?

The endless rivalry that is aviation means that is always a factor.
Guys that fly smaller machines consider bigger machines transport and the big guys think of small machines as toys.
That's life.

Personally I have always thought anyone that feels a need to refer to themselves in either the third person or as a single word/symbol/letter is probably a narcisstic tw@t whether that be Cher, Prince or that old bloke that invented things in James Bond movies (though who doesn't like an old Welsh bloke) :E

[Hughes500]

FC80

No just stating it as it is, by the way I do fly things bigger than 500's but have chosen to specialise in the smaller market. It is more fun, you meet interesting people, do interesting jobs and I delight in trying to pass on nearly 30 years of flying to the new generation. I somewhat feel once you get to the heavy metal people loose where they have come from and I dont see that many with all there experience coming back down to teach the new guys. Probably where things go wrong in our industry, too much looking up and down. " I fly an S92 so I must be bloody goo to the I own a B3e and so I am so well off I can look down on the pilots having to work for a living. Then there are those of us in the middle who just look and laugh at both ends. What a sad industry we live / work in :ugh:

[FC80]

Hughes, I've flown small and medium helicopters in the past, I fly large(ish) helicopters now.

I don't think any more of myself for it, or less of anyone flying smaller machines. As far as I'm concerned, anyone narrow-minded enough to believe that flying a 92/225/Sea King/whatever somehow makes them superior to someone pottering around in an R22 is a moron, and probably nursing some insecurities.

You're being harsh tarring anyone who's flying heavier stuff with the same brush. Even though the people you are referring to exist, in a sizeable minority at least, I know plenty who are self-depracating and also genuinely interested in anything related to flying, regardless of MTOW.

To claim that we all think we're sky gods is rubbish.

[[email protected]]

And to think that those who now fly the bigger stuff didn't cut their teeth (and maybe have some level of expertise) on the small stuff is naive,

The best fun helicopter in the world is the Gazelle and most of us ex-mil learned on that:ok:

[Draco]

How does a simple informational post turn into such an argument? You’d all argue about whether a helicopter was a blueish-grey or a greyish-blue - but if we all liked and disliked the same things in the same measure, wouldn’t life be boring...?

[Reverserbucket]

Weren't Bickertons sued by a couple living on the airfield perimeter for loss of value to their property due to the proximity of heli-training recently? Could this be a factor? On another note, are Mike and Mary Smith still around?

[Hughes500]

Draco it is good fun though although a complete waste of time
FC 80 I am being slightly tongue in cheek as with most things the silent majority say nothing it is as you say the sizeable minority ( although not sure how a minority is sizeable, whoops Draco I am a calling black, white ! )
Crab, yes 341 most fun with your clothes on, although you need to try a 500 if you haven't already

[Reverserbucket]

Thanks for the link alphanumeric. The previous incumbent of Shepherds Holt, Michael Ashworth, was one of the aerodromes most vocal objectors and I wondered if the ramp had been located somewhat strategically to antagonise him.

[ShyTorque]

And to think that those who now fly the bigger stuff didn't cut their teeth (and maybe have some level of expertise) on the small stuff is naive,

The best fun helicopter in the world is the Gazelle and most of us ex-mil learned on that:ok:

Only the young sprogs trained on that new fangled Gazelle... :cool:

[[email protected]]

The first time in many years I have been regarded as a young sprog:ok:

[ShyTorque]

The first time in many years I have been regarded as a young sprog:ok:

And probably one of the last.... :E

[TipCap]

I trained on the Hiller 12E :ok:

TC

[Frying Pan]

If I may interrupt the self back patting brigade (sometimes with knives!) for a moment, it's a shame that any company employing us pilots finds it tough. Alas, I really don't think it will get any better. I would encourage my children to go airline, at least there's a business model and pretty much permanent demand. Helicopter flying, not so sure now. Good luck to all, I cut my teeth in the FI world with HA first in Wycombe then Denham, so I feel for the people working there.

Cheers FP.

[homonculus]

For the commercial side that is true - I have never known it so bad for so long. However the issue for Heliair and other companies like it is that they on the whole serve the PPLs, self fly owners and ab initio training market. The commercial side can bounce back if the economy recovers. Heliair's market however has been falling for twenty years. Repeated attacks by the taxman in the UK and elsewhere makes it increasingly difficult to either buy or run a helicopter on a business. Both capital costs and running costs have escalated well ahead of inflation and earnings. and there really isnt an ideal helicopter for the serious private owner.

Q has carved out a niche by providing an excellent service - if you book an aircraft you are never let down. The aircraft is out, fuelled and ready. Support is never too much trouble, you can go and come when you please, and the price is highly competitive. So what is left of this market has gravitated to HQ leaving the competition floundering. Not healthy.

[nigelh]

The same old petty bickering ...!!! I trained on the Hiller and Bell47 and fly everything up to Agusta 109 ...so no heavies. I believe that until the CAA understand that they are killing the industry things will not get better . I have operated in a small way without an AOC for thirty years . Would i like to be able to operate with an AOC ? Yes probably , but the cost and bureaucracy make that impossible . I fly on the FAA ticket because again the red tape involved in flying multiple types in EASA land make that also difficult . I don,t think i am anywhere near unique when i say that i would quit helicopters altogether if i had to be in the system as it is . More and more people fly every year , and every day , outside of the AOC system ( i would guess over 90% in the small fixed wing market !) and it seems to work fine . I reckon that if you dropped all the prices by 20% you would generate a lot more flights ...and you would be more profitable , if we scrapped the onerous side of the AOC requirements .
I am about to get a Bell 505 . It is a simple helicopter . It will be very cheap to run ( circa £350-400 per hour i reckon ) and would be ideal for cheaper charter ......but there are none on AOC yet and i am told the costs will be high .
Why ?? It is just an L4 with a French engine and 5 seats !!! So if you would like to charter one you cant ....but you will be able to lease one . And you will be able to fly into Battersea without floats and fly at night . None of it really makes sense to me and i have watched the helicopter (GA) industry die over the last 20 years or so without anyone so much as lifting a finger to stop it . When we leave Europe it would be nice if we could go onto a system more like the N reg and let all the single engine owners generate a little income towards their overheads and in turn introduce a whole new group of people to flying ... it will still be expensive ..but a lot cheaper than chartering now !

[paco]

Under EASA rules, if you do "aerial work" you don't need an AOC anyway (that would appear to include photography). The wrinkle in the UK is that the ANO makes no allowance for the "essential persons" that you can carry on such work.

Phil

[nigelh]

You dont actually need an AOC for anything other than ad hoc charter . If someone wants to do a number of hours charter they can always just lease your aircraft and do it much simpler and cheaper privately !! The UK system is so restrictive and expensive that owners think they can only use their aircraft for themselves or rent out to operators at very low rates . They may just want to get say 25 hours a year to help with cost of insurance and that doesnt work with AOC,s . All they need to do is find a few people who would like to charter , do a lease agreement with them for X hours and give them a list of approved pilots . Job done . The crazy part is that they can then legally do much more with the helicopter then the operator can do such as night flying , no floats etc etc which personally i wouldnt have thought was enhancing safety !! The fixed wing boys have done this for years now very happily and that is why they seem to thrive . If there was such a thing as an AOC Light which would work for single machine operators wanting to do a few hours a year we would all join . If its going to cost £20k a year and a raft more paperwork then its pretty obvious its not going to work !!

Paco . So you are saying that i can take say three pax , all with cameras , and fly them around with no AOC or other permit ? The problem is that you will then get into an argument about who was necessary for the flight . If you just do a lease you get over all of that and know that you are acting legally . I am not aware that anyone has ever been prosecuted for leasing , unless they havent bothered draw up a lease agreement or are providing their own pilot within the price . The CAA also want the aircraft maintained to the same level as an AOC machine . ( at least that was the case when i last asked them about 10 years ago ...)

[paco]

Off the top of my head (meaning correct me if I'm wrong) you can take up to 6 essential persons to from and during an aerial work flight. Here s the ICAO definition:

Aerial work. An aircraft operation in which an aircraft is used for specialized services such as agriculture, construction,
photography, surveying, observation and patrol, search and rescue, aerial advertisement, etc.

It's the etc bit that intrigues the lawyer in me....

[nigelh]

Mmmm...so your Mother coming on photo flight and her job is to point out the things to photograph may work ....?? I think i would still go " belt & braces "
and do the whole job as a lease . That way i wont need the lawyer in you !!

[paco]

You could shoot a coach and horses through the ANO if you had a lawyer with the right attitude..... Starting with whether it was laid before Parliament properly.... And whether the CAA have permission in the Enabling Act to do certain things....

[rattle]

I was a student of Glenda's at HA too in the late 90s. I stayed with HA for many years until the sale. It then became an odd place to visit. Instructors seemed hard to find, lessons got cancelled, then you got somebody who had never flown with you. After a break, I went to HQ. It's a great place with some great people. I don't fly with Q by choice but they have some regular instructors who know my limits. There's always somebody around to offer advice, and the engineering side is open and welcoming so no questions seems too small. Even if I am not flying, I drop in if I am nearby for work as there's always a familiar face to catch up with or a machine being maintained to ask about. HA Denham was a bunch of lecturing rooms and a big, empty reception area where I personally felt out of place.

[rotarywise]

You could shoot a coach and horses through the ANO if you had a lawyer with the right attitude..... Starting with whether it was laid before Parliament properly.... And whether the CAA have permission in the Enabling Act to do certain things.... The CAA considers itself to be above such trivialities as the law. For example, I understand that the Senior Flight Examiner (for one) is continuing to conduct CPL skill tests despite not holding a Class 1 medical, in clear breach of the EU Regulation.

[nigelh]

I think that shows common sense !!
Why do you need a Class 1 when you are sitting next to a CPL doing a skills test ? I would argue that you shouldn't need any medical to pass on skill so good on him !!!

[md 600 driver]

NIGEL
Maybe so but if there’s a set of rules that are in place surely the authority that controls them should comply
Otherwise it could make things difficult for the people taking the tests when their licences get pulled years later
There was a examiner in Yorkshire not CAA that his medical had run out the CAA cancelled the pilots licence if the examinees and they had to retest

[Jettiejock]

When I did my CPL test, the CAA's chief examiner, that conducted the test, didn't have a a type rating on the machine.

[nigelh]

MD600 . I was being a bit tongue in cheek and do agree with you . However if the CAA themselves made sensible rules we could ALL abide by them !!!! I think it seems crazy to have older experienced pilots who cannot do training or check rides due to no medical.
One of my checkrides was done by a pilot who had never flown the helicopter in question so effectively I was giving HIM a lesson !! At the end of the day he is there to observe so I would have thought no need for duals either ?

[[email protected]]

Me neither, particularly not after he insisted on demonstrating low-g to me once, on an LPC. I had to insist quite strongly we did not do this.presumably in a Robbie???

[[email protected]]

Very good decision - disappointing that he was even willing to show you:ugh:

[chopjock]

I was shown low G and demonstrated it back during my training in the early nineties, never hurt me... :ok:

[Jettiejock]

He conducted my PPL test in a 22 that was 70 pounds overweight, because he was 2 hours late and the planned machine had gone back to its owner. He overruled my protests and then within several minutes of lifting off he wanted me to do a confined area landing into a very small woodland clearing. Again, he ignored my protests that we were too heavy, insisted I land there and then berated me for going in there with too much weight and not enough power to get out without putting the MAP in the red. Exasperating.

[Cows getting bigger]

Wasn’t this thread about HA? For sure, Q is marmite but his business seems to be doing better than the Fat One’s.

[rr84c]

As the person who started this thread, I'd rather it be about HA (and the associated inference that it's a shame to see parts of the industry contracting) than Q bashing, not least because I'm a fan of Q's (there you go, have declared my interest).

[[email protected]]

rr84c - you are correct that it is a shame about the industry contracting but it is interesting that a few have voiced concerns about said individual.

He is, by all accounts, a good pair of hands in a helicopter but pilots with his 'larger than life' type of personality have been the subjects of many Flight Safety seminars and courses that I and many others have attended over the years - usually when dissecting the causes of a fatal accident.

When his 'talent' runs out, perhaps because he believes his own press or just chances his arm once too often, it is likely to have severe consequences.

Confidence is everything in flying training - over-confidence is not.

Perhaps you should set your sights a little higher when looking for a role-model.

[Senior Pilot]

Any further off topic comments on an individual on this thread will be moderated.

[[email protected]]

I understand SP but some pilots have voiced concerns and I don't think they should be ignored.:ok:

[md 600 driver]

Crab

Some anonymous posters have made some comments,

if they have valid concerns they should contact the relevant authority’s which would allow the person who they are complaining about to give his side of things if there is a case to answer in the first case

You proberbly wouldn’t like it if I started saying things about you that maybe were true or maybe false you do need to get this in perspective SP is right about this

[Dr Jekyll]

Premises are irrelevant to a flight school. It's the people that matter.



I'm convinced this attitude is part of the problem with GA in the UK. Look at a golf club or gym patronised by people who have sufficient disposal income for flying and you can see where the money is spent. Try and run a training course in the latest management fad for the same demographic and you need good as new, comfortable, ideally slightly luxurious, facilities. Not because they don't take the course seriously but because otherwise they will think you don't take their training (or golf, or fitness programme) as seriously as they do.

If you're a 17 year old itching to get in the air by hook or by crook, or a military trainee doing as ordered, then a shed with make do and mend facilities isn't an issue. But once you end up running a flying school you have to remember that your students are paying customers and probably used to upmarket facilities. So it is an issue for them. Perhaps it shouldn't be, but it is.

[[email protected]]

MD600 - I take your points but this is an internet forum, not a court of law - inevitably posters are anonymous and you have to sort the wheat from the chaff with what people say.

I agree there are official channels but how many have the time or inclination to use them?

Anyway, Happy New Year to all:ok:

[gg17]

Wasn’t this thread about HA?

Any further ideas on why HA EGLD shut up shop?

I heard a rumour that this was due to Denham (Bickertons?) deciding not to renew the HA lease, but I have no idea why this lease would not have been renewed by the landlord.