only bad eggs left?

[desertbob]

So management is now trying to figure out how to punish the remaining crew haha. Is that because 20% of our primary English speakers have left or because leadership/attitude are the principle reason we are having near crashes on a weekly basis?!

How many consultants does it take to say the culture is now pure poison!

There is no training only checking. There is no respect only discipline. There is no days off only slavery. There is no recuperation only efficiency. No pay rise in 4 yrs. The bidding system is useless. The swapping system is useless. No more allowance in Geneva, watch this space. Hotels literally next to the gate. Middle management running for the exits. Lets bond everyone. What genius wants to boost his bonus next?!

Another hull loss and this company is history ...

[SOPS]

Do tell..what have they done now?

[aussiefarmer]

Toxic atmosphere is what you breathe nowadays. Is becoming unsustainable. A safety issue in itself.

And incidents every week - they’re gonna run out of people to dismiss.

[Global_Global]

ehh as this is the ME forum... Who are we talking about? EK?

[27k]

ehh as this is the ME forum... Who are we talking about? EK?

Doesn't sound like.

[harry the cod]

No more allowance in Geneva? There was nothing in the fleet update saying otherwise unless I missed it. Care to elaborate Bob or is it another one of your usual posts, charged with emotion and lacking in facts?

Also, as for the 'done to death' mantra of EK checking, not training....it's both. Whether we like it or not, our licences are required to be re validated through a competency assessment in the simulator. It's not unique to EK and is repeated in every reputable airline Worldwide. If you failed to notice this throughout your flying career, perhaps you're in the wrong job altogether.

Maybe time to go drive trains like SOPS.

Harry

[Monarch Man]

Also, as for the 'done to death' mantra of EK checking, not training....it's both. Whether we like it or not, our licences are required to be re validated through a competency assessment in the simulator. It's not unique to EK and is repeated in every reputable airline Worldwide.

Would this be the same “training” department that seems to have no problem with LTCs teaching, or should I say imparting complete horse manure to new joiners because the LTC themselves are so lacking in knowledge and common sense they don’t know any better.
e.g.1 convective wx around but as no “cabin ready” the hero LTC berates said new joiner for having the temerity (common sense) to switch on the wx radar scan the departure path.
e.g 2 berating new joiner for including in the route the expected STAR and approach because “it’s not SOP and could lead to us flying the wrong approach in 14hrs time”
All witnessed by yours truely in the last 4 weeks, the very same training dept that insists on high standards with shared goals and mutual respect.
Is this the same department?

[Emma Royds]

No more allowance in Geneva? There was nothing in the fleet update saying otherwise unless I missed it. Care to elaborate Bob or is it another one of your usual posts, charged with emotion and lacking in facts?

Harry

It's apparently a trial where meal vouchers are being issued in lieu of the cash allowance. Not been to GVA to witness it myself but the rumour has seemed to have gained considerable momentum recently.

I heard ZRH as well? Any 380 colleagues care to comment?

[harry the cod]

MM

Previous posts clearly portray your dislike for the training department so your comments will be taken with the bias they deserve.

There will always be some 'bed eggs' in any training department and yes, I agree that the current minimum requirements to join is laughable. However, what disappoints me most is when individuals such as yourself constantly degrade and generalise a department that, in my opinion, has improved in recent years. The vast majority of the trainers are extremely capable, knowledgable and do indeed engender a climate of trust. Your comments do a disservice to the majority of generally good guys who are currently working flat out and doing a fine job under increasingly difficult and testing times. Perhaps if you reported these anomalies via an email to the person sharing your same initials might the rogue trainers be identified, flagged and possibly removed.

Maybe taking more ownership than umbrage might be the way forward sometimes?

Harry

[desertbob]

Ofc glad you know best Harry. Appreciate your myopic view on the problem facing us all on a grandiise scale! Where is your solution? Ah yes, your best is to belittle the critique as not affecting you!

Please explain why our failure rate has jumped from 1% to 12%? Perhaps it’s because our new hires have neither the experience or aptitude?

Now add chronically fatigued Captains to a minimum level of experience and be surprised where you arrive!!

[dubaigong]

By the way , Harry the cod ,
you don't have to be so sarcastic about train drivers , it was once a prestigious profession and we are going the same direction
At least train drivers " stick " together and are not a bunch of pretentious and selfish men as we are...
Maybe I should also join SOPS

[sealear]

Driving trains are you serious? They work 12 hr shifts and are constantly on strike for one reason or another. :rolleyes:

[cerbus]

Maybe if we went on strike every so often we wouldn’t be in the sad shape we’re in as a profession.
We all know the draconian laws and attitudes of the Middle East so striking might not help us but a little back bone will go a long way.

[WB1900]

MM

Previous posts clearly portray your dislike for the training department so your comments will be taken with the bias they deserve.

There will always be some 'bed eggs' in any training department and yes, I agree that the current minimum requirements to join is laughable. However, what disappoints me most is when individuals such as yourself constantly degrade and generalise a department that, in my opinion, has improved in recent years. The vast majority of the trainers are extremely capable, knowledgable and do indeed engender a climate of trust. Your comments do a disservice to the majority of generally good guys who are currently working flat out and doing a fine job under increasingly difficult and testing times. Perhaps if you reported these anomalies via an email to the person sharing your same initials might the rogue trainers be identified, flagged and possibly removed.

Maybe taking more ownership than umbrage might be the way forward sometimes?

Harry


Harry i like to agree in one point - some of the trainers are nice and competent - but thats it than


in which school is a 2 a reason to repeat the entire class
in which training (except in downunder) would you not trained to success
in which training do support pilots call in sick, because of fear factor
in which training does a support loos his/her reputation and got downgraded (in 15 years i have heard that once with my airline, and they did not burn an aircraft on the runway.
which company has one target only - to destroy confidence instead of building it
which company has such a high intrest in taking away pilots skill
which other company solely number driven, without any Human resource
which company grounds failed upgraders for years, not for one, for years to get it back. usually u not get it back after the second fail, why because normal companies believe in their employees and everyone can have a bad day - not in EK
which company changes the contract without your consent.


these things are very unique to EK or the middle east


In EK u make one little mistake and depending on who u meet it can end your career. further u will be bonded so you have not even the chance to leave after the big embaressment, and if u do so the take away your entire savings from your provident fund. that is what u call a improvment. If somebody is complaining about Ryan Air - please think twice, at least they do not rob your money and call u a unthankful person (yeah ok one guy does)
it was mentioned earlier ex 330 have been here for long - getting overtaken by DEFOs - and now getting bonded and shafted to stay where they are.
Plus - EK gets only those who did not get another job somewhere else - which is ok as long u provide training, but that does not happen either. they get checked with limited input - some of them to death - not even close to trained to success. you can see it frequently in the compounds that somebody moves in and shortly later moves out again. likely to be broke, likely with a loan for the car left, with a loan to make it nice for the family to live here in the long run and mostly because they believed in the promised training to success - until it was suddenly over.

[dragon man]

It's apparently a trial where meal vouchers are being issued in lieu of the cash allowance. Not been to GVA to witness it myself but the rumour has seemed to have gained considerable momentum recently.

I heard ZRH as well? Any 380 colleagues care to comment?

They tried this one on in Qantas then backed away when the crew excepted a 10% cut to all their meal allowances worldwide. Miserable pricks!!!!

[ruserious]

Harry, over the years I have agreed with many of your posts and the balance you try to seek, however I truly think you need to go and grab a couple of our redundant Oceanic charts as you have totally lost the plot

[SOPS]

I would like but back in here. The longest shift we can be rostered for as a train driver is 8 hours. Today and tomorrow I'm rostered for 6.30.

And as much as you might think it's funny, Harry, it is actually a really nice job.

[Divertnow]

I do believe there are still a few bad eggs but luckily for me (and luckily is perhaps the key word?) my experiences in training have all been positive bar one and that ahole has a reputation. I still passed but he’s not fit for his role! I personally think the fear factor comes from fleet up to the top rather than Training and the increased failure rates and incidents come from several factors such as lowered experience levels, fatigue and a decimated morale. The situation at EK is endemic to the region as a whole. The culture of micromanaging megalomaniacs is everywhere and they do themselves zero favours by not communicating enough to us or between themselves which only fuels frustration and resentment. Everything is either top secret or undocumented and made up on the spot to suit whatever the current need. Ek have made a better run of it than Gulf air but this place needs a radical change and starting with the ‘leadership’ of TC and engaging the work force. If they want to get back to winning awards and market share then they need to change because without that this place is done. In the mean time, don’t hold your breath... just my two cents.

[felixthecat]

- Some guys having been hand flying the plane for years (as per OM-A). Others have been engaging the AP at 100’ and disconnecting at minima. Who is to blame for lack of skill?


Following the flight directors with the autothrottle engaged up to X thousand and down from X thousand isn't really 'hand flying' ...in my eyes anyway.

[Monarch Man]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileHi View Post
- Some guys having been hand flying the plane for years (as per OM-A). Others have been engaging the AP at 100’ and disconnecting at minima. Who is to blame for lack of skill?
Following the flight directors with the autothrottle engaged up to X thousand and down from X thousand isn't really 'hand flying' ...in my eyes anyway.

And, therein lies the rub Felix, the culture is so deeply ingrained that something as simple as hand flying is lost amongst layers of OMA revisions and knee jerk FCIs.
As I’ve said previously, the department that should be leading the way has been far more concerned with compliance and arse covering rather than protecting and enhancing the skills of its “customers”
Yes there are good trainers, but they along with their far too inexperienced and far too confident in their own ability colleagues are as much part of the problem as the 3rd and 8th floor are, they just don’t yet see it or believe it themselves...yet.
Human beings learn from their mistakes, until such time as the training environment is tolerant in a humanistic and pragmatic fashion I will continue to view their efforts through jaundiced and cynical eyes, regrettably it seems our training head has forgotten so many of the lessons he learnt from his previous days in her majesty’s service.

[Talparc]

MileHi, hope you had a great day at Costa!?

[WB1900]

WB1900

Below in reply to your training department tirade....



should not be a tirade


I agree with in some part, but it leaves the question open why are there so many people scared of training, why is in other companies the success rate of upgrades by far higher, and why are people scared or worried about random line checks if it so easy as u say.
There are some nice ones, true
but they are caught in the system, getting overruled by the training managers or by fleet.
you should every now and than also listen to the candidates what they have beem failed for, and u will hear a different story. and not only what training transports. very obscure stories.

[harry the cod]

Talparc

Serious question. You are employed by EK right? If so, may I ask how long you've been here?

Harry

[givemewings]

Toxic atmosphere

Yep he's talking about EK....

Take a walk down the back (that is if you're not worried about getting snitched on for stretching your legs) and see for yourself how bad it is. That's just the CC imagine how much worse it is in flight dept not just service del.

You really don't see how bad it is until you get out...

SOPS I'll come drive trains, 6.30 sounds like a dream compared to 12 that might bang out to 14 with taxi delays* oh and lets not forget that holding we all love so much :ok:

*not including the parts you don't get paid for

[OMDB30R]

Do EK still do those “begging shows” oh sorry I meant roadshows in the UK?

[GillEx737]

Do EK still do those “begging shows” oh sorry I meant roadshows in the UK?

Yes the roadshows are still happening...much like every other airline. It's not a unique thing.

[Talparc]

Harry:
long enough but before you do not get your bet right (Still waiting for your Bentley)
I will not talk to you anymore.
By the way your reputation in training is definitely not the best.
Better keep your ball flat!

[White Knight]

(that is if you're not worried about getting snitched on for stretching your legs)

givemestrength:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: What a bl00dy stupid comment:ugh:

[You rock]

Have we as a company come this far now that we are personally attacking people about their reputation if as you say in training.

Cmon guys. I thought we are a team

Harry:
long enough but before you do not get your bet right (Still waiting for your Bentley)
I will not talk to you anymore.
By the way your reputation in training is definitely not the best.
Better keep your ball flat!

[Dropp the Pilot]

GivemeWAGS.

Commentary at an appropriately articulate level.

[SOPS]

Play the ball, not the man.

[givemewings]

WK, Dropp, tell that to the FO who made the comment in the first place. In my whole post that's the part you choose to comment on? :rolleyes: Yawn.

[fliion]

Harry:
long enough but before you do not get your bet right (Still waiting for your Bentley)
I will not talk to you anymore.
By the way your reputation in training is definitely not the best.
Better keep your ball flat!

Talparc - that’s a particularly offensive post.

There are some unsaid rules around here.

No ID’ing other posters, no posting of personal messages-

And then what you just did. You apparently have Harry’s identity and have, on this forum, suggested there’s a community of thought that is disparaging towards his training credentials.

You can do that - if you identify yourself so that he & other’s have the opportunity to discuss your reputation - amongst the trainers or pilots you have flown with.

Pi$$ poor & cowardly.

[Adam Barfy]

There are some unsaid rules around here.

Lol. Just like EK’s training dept.
More for your benefit than mine mate!

[sealear]

I agree it is pretty low to personally attack someone on prune and reveal their identity. We are all colleagues after all, the industry will never improve if we can't get along.

[777boyindubai]

Talparc. You usually have some valid points. Please remove your last post. It doesn't do us as a family any credit. Thanks

[CaptainChipotle]

Hey... If you can't hate the company enough for treating you like dogsh!t, then hate each other.

Psychologists call that "transference"

And Talparc... ...C’mon man.

[Eau de Boeing]

Ironically with a name like talparc, you would think he would know when to stop......

[CaptainChipotle]

Ironically with a name like talparc, you would think he would know when to stop......

Haha +1... good one.

[glofish]

Harry
With all due respect, but your insistance that we should contact the management with experiences of rotten eggs is futile and naive.
Wasn't it management itself that reinstatet the most rotten one? Wasn't it management itself that promoted, according to the Peter's principle, the one that helped to install fear and now can't understand why it manifests ?
Even being quite old, experienced and somewhat immune to this aviation bs, i still get a dreadful vibe when opening the portal and having to look at the initial picture and dredge any notification of some impending rgts or sims.
They have really succeeded in taking out the last tiny drop of trust.

[LivingINtheDream]

Harry:
long enough but before you do not get your bet right (Still waiting for your Bentley)
I will not talk to you anymore.
By the way your reputation in training is definitely not the best.
Better keep your ball flat!

I don't see how this post reveals anything about H's identity other than the fact that he is some guy from training with a less than mediocre reputation. Oh, and he's waiting for his Bentley.

[zero/zero]

Regardless of the cause, what an embarrassing and pathetic bunch EK pilots have become with such pointless personal attacks on a public forum. Even if the endless indications of gross mismanagement doesn’t stop people from joining, this microstudy of douchebags surely will

[cerbus]

They will always join Zero. We have had no problem in the last year of pilots joining. The obvious problem is the talent level but that won’t stop the company from lowering the standards and mins to make sure the positions are filled.

[The Outlaw]

They will always join Zero. We have had no problem in the last year of pilots joining. The obvious problem is the talent level but that won’t stop the company from lowering the standards and mins to make sure the positions are filled.

Until the unspeakable happens and CNN plays it over and over and over.

[sealear]

We have had no problem in the last year of pilots joining.

This is completely false :=
Talk to anyone in the recruitment department and they will tell you otherwise.

[fatbus]

Lack of experienced pilots is not unique to EK

[my salami]

Lack of experienced pilots is not unique to EK
Agree, but the combination of equipment and network structure, mixed with the above, it is....

[desertbob]

is anyone under the illusion this is an isolated incident?

company will be looking to punish the perpetrators as usual
- fire everyone involved
- overtrain and check everyone left
- treat all accomplices with contempt
- pilots are only children that need yelling at
- after all your mother could be on the plane ...

we need organic leadership!!!!
- treat employees with respect
- reward loyalty with massive improvements
- train to proficiency
- allow sufficient rest and recuperation
- restore dignity and respect
- recruit employees with aptitude and proficiency

am i seriously alone in realizing we are one step away from annihilation?

[KippaLippa]

am i seriously alone in realizing we are one step away from annihilation?

unfortunately, no.

Regards,

KL

[The Outlaw]

........and try to keep some of the experience in the company rather than let it just drift away!

SS,

I think the captain's title and seniority number may surprise you. The problem lies solely with procedures and the managemen'ts total lack of leadership in fostering the best from its employees. There are very real reasons why AS, HD, and JA have left with a few others in the office already with one foot out the door. With the recent appointment of the AMcF, it's clear where it'll all end up.

It's already too late.

Stand by for more events like these.

[Jack D]

Who or what is Amcf ? Sorry I can’t work that acronym out .