Wedgetail

[LincsFM]

I keep hearing the word Wedgetail used at ISTAR Central. Rumour has it that the E-3D's aren't keeping well??

[TBM-Legend]

RAAF Boeing E-7A Wedgetail is deployed on a rotational basis from No2 Sqn to the ME...has Northrop Grumman MESA radar with ELINT capability. With IFR they stay airborne for hours...RAAF has six..

[Buster Hyman]

Thread needs a pic...

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/16/wedgetail2_wideweb__430x298.jpg

[muppetofthenorth]

Aside from being based on the same basic airframe, how similar are the Wedgetails to the P8s? Many shared components?

[SVK]

I realise the devil is in the detail but a fleet of P8 Poseidon’s - with some fitted for future AAS Radar (if we’re permitted to buy it) and E7 Wedgetails would give the RAF;

Airframe commonality (relatively speaking).
The ability to draw upon previous CFM-56 expertise from E3D and RJ.
A not unreasonable possibility of pooling pilots, simulators etc.

Therefore you could have in the near-mid term a Nimrod and E3D replacement with a viable option to replace Sentinel. Though I admit there would be a degree of ‘Jack of All Trades’, surely it would be more efficient - especially if we are potentially hurting for future Aircrew Numbers and money etc?

[ShotOne]

...not to mention type-commonality for a career path to Ryanair for any pilot prepared to endure the abuse

[stewyb]

Let's remember we don't have a pot to **** in and the P8 numbers will probably be slashed in the next defence review. Get the AEW Shackleton airborne again I say!

[Pure Pursuit]

I seriously doubt that P8 numbers will be touched as they’re not buying enough as it is. Protector is open for a hit and I can see them slowing down the procurement of F35 but, the freedom of movement that has been afforded to the Russian sub fleet since Nimrod was binned has been a huge embarrassment.

Wedgetail? I wouldn’t like to guess but, the E-3D fleet needs a huge uplift in cash to continue and I suspect that the procurement of a new aircraft might not be much different in cost.

[George K Lee]

The end of the line approacheth for 737NG. Doesn't look good for JSTARS Recap, which was 737NG-based and might have supported a boutique line. A MAX-based AEW would involve some re-engineering.

[Pure Pursuit]

I think the Boeing proposal for RAF Wedgetail is 737-800 with an aim of maximising commonality with the P8. I’m afraid I don’t know much more than that regarding airframe choice.

It won’t happen because it makes sense!

[LincsFM]

Rumour I heard is we might be borrowing an Aussie one!!

[OneofthePlebs]

Aside from being based on the same basic airframe, how similar are the Wedgetails to the P8s? Many shared components?


I believe that the P-8 is a 737-800 and the Wedgetail is a 737-700, so from an air vehicle perspective very similar. If the MoD are smart, there should be some efficiencies and savings to be had! :ok:

[Autorev]

The E-3's are on their knees, with recent groundings reported widely in the news.

SDSR 15 directed the E-3's to be extended to 2035, but the cost of getting them to the USAF standard will be expensive, plus the cost of improving the reliability of the current fleet. Also it is likely that some work on the radar will be required to future-proof.

The RAAF have worked hard to get the E-7 to its current capability and are undergoing a refresh of the Mission System to improve it further.

The Wedgetail has proved extremely successful on Operations and availability rates of an airliner; something most military aircraft can only dream about!

From a green aircraft perspective the P-8A is a 737-800 and the E-7 is a 737-700, but there could be significant savings on in-service costs. Indeed, many airlines run different versions of the 737, but treat them as a common platform.

MOD could make big savings by moving to a common 737 ISR platform. For example, a single IPT in DE&S? Common RTS and Safety Case? Training?
Across all the DLODs there could be opportunities to do things in a single approach rather than each platform doing it differently.

[Pure Pursuit]

RAAF E-7s are indeed 737-700 however, any RAF purchase would involve 737-800 airframes.

In answer to a question above, the airframe commonality between P8 and any E7s produced for the RAF would be 85%.

[OneofthePlebs]

[QUOTE=Pure Pursuit;9975492]RAAF E-7s are indeed 737-700 however, any RAF purchase would involve 737-800 airframes.

I am not sure if you understand the differences between the 737-800 and 737-700? The Boeing offerings for both AEW&C and JSTARS are based upon the 737-700. The P-8 is a 737-800 (which is significantly longer) as it has the weapons bay on the aircraft. The P-8 and E-7 have 900 and 800 wings respectively. I am not sure why either Boeing or the MoD would want to re-design the E-7 to sit on a different/larger airframe? If the MoD want to procure off-the-shelf, as a low risk option, then I would suggest they are going to buy more of the same rather than fund any additional work.

[Herod]

The P-8 and E-7 have 900 and 800 wings respectively.

I'm prepared to be corrected, but I believe the -800 and the -900 have a common wing.

[rjtjrt]

[QUOTE=Pure Pursuit;9975492]
................. I am not sure why either Boeing or the MoD would want to re-design the E-7 to sit on a different/larger airframe? If the MoD want to procure off-the-shelf, as a low risk option, then I would suggest they are going to buy more of the same rather than fund any additional work.

Anyone involved in military procurement should have a "better is the enemy of good enough" tattoo on their retinae.

[chopper2004]

Thread needs a pic...

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/16/wedgetail2_wideweb__430x298.jpg

Or more detail here are my photos of Edingburgh's finest with century nose markings from RIAT in July

cheers

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4536/37886604755_9e6e89c800_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/37886600995_bf72b03606_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4553/38742103242_b588761fcb_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4573/26997469529_e6f6e7ba77_k.jpg

[chopper2004]

Thread needs a pic...

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/16/wedgetail2_wideweb__430x298.jpg

I am now going back even further - to my visit to ILA 2014 and second time I have seen TUAF Wegetail (first was Farnborough 2010) so here are my photos

cheers

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4545/26997922409_8827afa530_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4569/38056937914_5053c4d4b0_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4546/24900313698_272b725a89_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4564/37886691655_32c1c8b1ac_k.jpg

[ShotOne]

For the £2 billion cost of E3 upgrade we could buy a respectable fleet. Big savings in training, spares and maintenance. Perfect..So, no definitely won’t happen!

[TBM-Legend]

Ronnie RAAF now operates Boeing P-8, E-7, BBJ [VIP].....

[Pure Pursuit]

I do indeed understand the difference between a -700 and a -800. It’s not the MoD that’s specifying the latter, it’s Boeing.

[George K Lee]

There are four things here: The -700, the -800, the Wedgetail and the P-8. The Wedgetail is a highly modified -700 and P-8 is from a structural viewpoint a new airplane. Unless there was a reason (more operator stations?) to use an -800 airframe, the nonrecurring costs of developing a Wedgetail version would obliterate any savings. And using the P-8 airframe for an AEW would be utter lunacy.

[flighthappens]

For the £2 billion cost of E3 upgrade we could buy a respectable fleet. Big savings in training, spares and maintenance. Perfect..So, no definitely won’t happen!

Along with a significant increase in capability and reliability

[Pure Pursuit]

I’ve just had another look and my memory was clearly failing me. Apologies, it is indeed a -700 IGW aircraft.

Commonality with P8:
Group A aircraft systems 74%
Mission systems 34%
Ground support and basing requirements 97%

[pr00ne]

"using the P-8 airframe for an AEW would be utter lunacy."

George K Lee,

Why?

[TBM-Legend]

Japan seems OK with E-767J AWACS combo...what's wrong with this. 767's are still being made..

[Davef68]

Japan seems OK with E-767J AWACS combo...what's wrong with this. 767's are still being made..

Is the E767 (as delivered) not just the E3 systems in a 767 airframe because Boeing had ended 707 airframe production (The last going to the RAF )

[ShotOne]

“Why”(P8 airframe). OK proone, The 737 makes such outstanding economic sense because there’s lots (almost 10,000) of them. SW Airways have 700, Ryanair over 400. We might be ordering six, maybe eight if we’re lucky. And you’re proposing a unique bespoke version that doesn’t yet exist, has to be specified, designed and flight tested. No doubt they’d do it but the cost would be enormous

[pr00ne]

ShotOne,

I'm not proposing anything.

I merely asked why the P-8 would be lunacy.

There will be hundreds of them in service.

There are thousands of 737's in service.

[ShotOne]

“..hundreds of them in service” Really? We’re on 14 now. Boeing are hardly going to underwriting development costs of a variant to compete with their existing model. That’s a huge cost to be amortised over a handful of airframes. And we wonder why we don’t get much bang for our buck!

[Davef68]

Three rules of procurement

Do we need it?
Can we afford it?
Can we muck it up by going bespoke?

[Pure Pursuit]

The bespoke option isn’t there for the E7. Off the shelf or bust. My gut feeling is it being ordered sooner rather than later in order to avoid 2nd and 3rd order effects of losing an airborne C2 capability.

[melmothtw]

“..hundreds of them in service” Really? We’re on 14 now. Boeing are hardly going to underwriting development costs of a variant to compete with their existing model. That’s a huge cost to be amortised over a handful of airframes. And we wonder why we don’t get much bang for our buck!

As of May the US Navy had received 53 of its planned 117 P-8s. Not to mention the Indian and Australian aircraft delivered. So, a few more than 14.

Take your point about the fallacy of creating a P-8-based AEW variant - why would you when the E-7 already exists?

[ShotOne]

No, “real”P8's don’t come into it. The suggestion under discussion (#14) was building a special RAF E7 but in a P8 airframe in a laudable but bonkers attempt at commonality

[Pure Pursuit]

Shot one,

I’ve already corrected my post. Do stop skim reading.... it makes your subsequent posts irrelevant.

Regardless of variant, there is a lot of similarity between P8 and E7. In a nutshell, the E-3D is f@@ked. The US variant doesn’t fair much better, neither does the F. Time for a change.

[A and C]

I can’t understand the attitude demonstrated above to the -700 vs -800 differences, the civil airlines regard them as the same aircraft, it’s just a longer walk to the rear galley on the -800.

Talk of different wings is true but the differences are of no significance in day to day operations and would only be a ( very small ) issue during heavy maintenance/repair.

[rjtjrt]

I can’t understand the attitude demonstrated above to the -700 vs -800 differences, the civil airlines regard them as the same aircraft, it’s just a longer walk to the rear galley on the -800.

Talk of different wings is true but the differences are of no significance in day to day operations and would only be a ( very small ) issue during heavy maintenance/repair.

From reading wiki it says the 737 Wedgetail uses the 737-700ER as basis, and the 737-700ER uses the 700 fuselage with the 800 wing and landing gear.
I have no engineering knowledge about this, but the dorsal radar appears to have necessitated substantial ventral rear fuselage "strakes", so adopting a longer fuselage of the 800 would presumably at least require re flight testing if not redesign and testing of aerodynamic changes to tail area.
On the other hand possibly longer fuselage will mean less aerodynamic surfaces are needed at rear of aircraft.
Whatever way, a change to 800 fuselage it would seem to need a fair bit of money and time spent on testing.

[ShotOne]

Pure pursuit, yes you did but others were contesting the issue. And yes, I agree with your conclusion on E3. A glance at this thread “...the enemy of good enough..”does at least provide a window into why we get so little for the huge sums we spend on kit. A dose of “good enough” might be what’s needed!