Cirrus down near Sherburn.

[Simplythebeast]

Looks like a Cirrus flying into or out of Sherburn has ended up in a field near Hambleton North Yorks. 2 injured.
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/15683914.PICTURES__Two_injured_as_plane_crashes_into_North_Y orkshire_field/

[horatio_b]

The Cirrus involved appears to be based at Oxford

[007helicopter]

From: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=201834

Airplane damage: Substantial
Location: SE of Sherburn-in-Elmet Airfield, North Yorkshire - United Kingdom
Phase: Landing
Nature: Private
Departure airport: Leeds East Airport (EGXG)
Destination airport: Sherburn-in-Elmet Airfield (EGCJ)

Narrative:
The aircraft experienced a force landing in open terrain southeast of Sherburn-in-Elmet Airfield, North Yorkshire, England. The aircraft sustained substantial damage and the two occupants onboard apparently received serious injuries.

[3wheels]

Flight Radar is a spotters site and a pretty inaccurate one at that....I’m sure the AAIB will use their own reliable sources thank you.

[Daysleeper]

I’m sure the AAIB will use their own reliable sources thank you.

I'm not...a non fatal light aircraft accident in the UK will normally be investigated by correspondence. There is a cost-benefit decision about getting other data, which for a Cirrus would include the onboard recorder.

When using FR24's data, like any source of information, you have to understand the limitations of the data you are using. With that in mind FR24 and other citizen reporting type things are really good.

[Jonzarno]

There is a cost-benefit decision about getting other data, which for a Cirrus would include the onboard recorder.

The data from the flight recorder can be used to reconstruct the circumstances of the accident quite accurately.

Best wishes for a good recovery to those involved.

[Mike Flynn]

It appears all aircraft tracking and altitude information will soon be in the public domain.

How long will it be before insurance companies use this to assess premiums?

[Contact Approach]

Don't these things have a parachute system available?

[sharpend]

Don't these things have a parachute system available?

Yes, but not advised to use below 1000 feet.

[Pilot DAR]

The photos show the parachute compartment uncovered, but the straps which connect the parachute to the airframe do not appear to be opened. From this, I conclude that the parachute was not deployed. The flaps appear to be extended, suggesting a planned approach descent. If I understand Cirrus parachute use correctly, there is an altitude below which the parachute cannot be effectively deployed. Perhaps they were below that altitude.

The appearance of the engine and cowl as a whole having been peeled downward, and lots of mud sprayed around, suggests a sudden stop in soft ground (as opposed to a rollout). If the ground were firm, contact with a high rate of descent can also do this to an airframe.

In any case, this was a sudden stop for the occupants. The injuries described are consistent with the sudden stop.

[piperboy84]

The photos show the parachute compartment uncovered, but the straps which connect the parachute to the airframe do not appear to be opened. From this, I conclude that the parachute was not deployed. The flaps appear to be extended, suggesting a planned approach descent. If I understand Cirrus parachute use correctly, there is an altitude below which the parachute cannot be effectively deployed. Perhaps they were below that altitude.

The appearance of the engine and cowl as a whole having been peeled downward, and lots of mud sprayed around, suggests a sudden stop in soft ground (as opposed to a rollout). If the ground were firm, contact with a high rate of descent can also do this to an airframe.

In any case, this was a sudden stop for the occupants. The injuries described are consistent with the sudden stop.


The rescue services approach small plane wrecks rather gingerly now that many microlights and the cirrus have ballistic parachutes, when I minced my Maule the first thing the fire dept. guy asked upon arrival was "does it have a chute? "

As for FR24 I absolutely love it, it showed my Maule doing 240 kts on today's 90kts bimble.

[Contact Approach]

I never understand why people link FR24 data when it is mostly unreliable - particularly for GA stuff.

[soay]

The disconcerting thing about those photos is that it looks like the aircraft landed with no ground speed at all, even though the prop must still have been turning. You can't even see where the undercarriage dragged across the grass. It's more what you'd expect to see if it came down under the chute, but clearly that was not deployed. Weird.

[soay]

Or.... if it stalled, and came straight down.
A SR22 stalls at about 60kts with flaps down, and I doubt it would be possible to keep its wings level if the forward speed dropped much below that. Maybe there was a 60kt headwind!

[Duchess_Driver]

Yes, but not advised to use below 1000 feet.

Three bands, based on AGL.

Below 500’ (600’ G5 and up) no point as it is unlikely to deploy fully/properly in time.
Below 2000, don’t take too long to think about it.
Above 2000 assess and deploy as appropriate. Recommended that when not within gliding distance of a suitable landing strip.

Parachute deployment speed circa 133kt depending on model.

[Pilot DAR]

stalls at about 60kts with flaps down, and I doubt it would be possible to keep its wings level if the forward speed dropped much below that.

It is possible in most aircraft (Piper Cub difficult) to have a controlled descent at a lesser power faster than stall speed, but the rate of descent is so great that even with application of power there is not enough reserve to arrest the rate of descent, and a hard landing results. This may be accompanied by a stall warning at the "Oh sh*t!" moment as the pilot pulls to arrest the descent, and the plane keeps going down. The forward speed can be very slow. After that, it's simply a matter of how strong the landing gear is.

Aircraft modified with STOL kits are particularly susceptible to this.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thoughts...

- Of course people link FR24 data, as it's the only thing usually in the public domain. But yes, it's unreliable being comprised of a merger of data from multiple "amateur" receivers. A lot of that is very good, but I'm not aware of any serious study analysing the data quality available from it; I have heard enough anecdotes from pilots who have seen their aircraft on FR24 particularly at markedly different altitudes to what they knew they were flying at, to distrust it.

- Re: AAIB, yes they can access secondary and even primary radar returns, which are much more informative. But there may be no good reason to. AAIB's job is to provide recommendations that can prevent a future accident. Only they can judge the complexity of investigation needed to achieve that, but often yes - it can be done purely by correspondence. Sometimes not.

- It's a Cirrus, it's full of computers and likely to have a very accurate downloadable flight track. However, the owner and most likely AAIB have that, we don't.

G

[Jonzarno]

Three bands, based on AGL.

Below 500’ (600’ G5 and up) no point as it is unlikely to deploy fully/properly in time.
Below 2000, don’t take too long to think about it.
Above 2000 assess and deploy as appropriate. Recommended that when not within gliding distance of a suitable landing strip.

Parachute deployment speed circa 133kt depending on model.

There have been several successful deployments at IAS above 133 including a couple above 180 KTS. Current advice is to pull even if above 133. The only known case of the chute pulling off the plane was at above 350 KTS in an uncontrolled descent following a severe icing encounter.

[Jonzarno]

It's a Cirrus, it's full of computers and likely to have a very accurate downloadable flight track. However, the owner and most likely AAIB have that, we don't.

That’s true. In accidents that have happened in the US, the COPA Director of Safety, who occasionally posts here, has been able to reconstruct and publish accident scenarios, including animations, based on the data recorded.

[Duchess_Driver]

Yes, you’re correct about the deployments above Vpd. That’s the certificated speed. What I didn’t realise was that the first successful recovery of an aircraft by parachute was back in the 1920’s so it’s nothing new.

It’s a mindset you need to develop through scenario based training. People still forget it’s there or have a ‘macho’ “I can handle this” attitude.

[soay]

It is possible in most aircraft (Piper Cub difficult) to have a controlled descent at a lesser power faster than stall speed
Surely the aircraft would still be moving forward relative to the air, so the ground speed can't be zero on impact, unless there's an equal and opposite headwind, or it nose dived in. I suppose, if the power to weight ratio was high enough, it could descend vertically, but then the tail would hit first.

[Jonzarno]

Yes, you’re correct about the deployments above Vpd. That’s the certificated speed. What I didn’t realise was that the first successful recovery of an aircraft by parachute was back in the 1920’s so it’s nothing new.

It’s a mindset you need to develop through scenario based training. People still forget it’s there or have a ‘macho’ “I can handle this” attitude.

Exactly right! :ok:

Aero Poznan has a full motion simulator including the ability to pull the chute and offer exactly this kind of training. I did the equivalent course on a simulator in the US and it is well worth doing for any Cirrus Pilot.

[Pilot DAR]

Surely the aircraft would still be moving forward relative to the air,

Yes. However, the motion through the air is not always purely horizontal, and aircraft can have motion through the air which has a vertical component. At the bottom, pilot pulls, aircraft pitches up, though motion downward continues (with the addition of a stall warning horn now) and impact. I've erred into this a couple of times. If the surface is not firm, it'll grab you, and stop you in a short distance (I have experience with that last summer).

When I train pilots on draggy aircraft like amphibious floatplanes, this scenario is a factor in the training, and is practiced. In the same aircraft, a glide approach could be at 60 knots, or at 80 knots. The 80 knots glide will give the pilot time to flare, and arrest the rate of descent, the 60 knot approach in the same aircraft will not. If the surface is not firm, it's going to grab you in any case.

I'm not saying that this is what happened in this accident, though when I see an upright aircraft (which is good) on the ground, with the engine peeled off, that comes to mind.

[sycamore]

And the `elephant in the room is`...How can you be overhead an airfield with 6 runways at approx 2000ft,and end up a mile short of the airfield,with ,or without power...????
Do people not practice a PFL over or close to an airfield...?
A 20-30deg. banked turn is all that is needed,aiming for about 1/3 of a runway initially,flying at the correct speed,balanced turns and adjusting the aiming point to land by `S`turns,sideslips.....NEVER ,ever `turn your back` on the target and try to do a `straight-in` F/Landing.
And ,if crashing seems inevitable,then, crash under control....!!!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I am confused about how you do a wide circuit, but are out of glide range, without thinking at some point, what if.......
Please can someone explain to be the serious concern some people have about not flying the downwind leg out of gliding range of the airfield, when the entire en-route section of the flight has just been performed outside gliding range of any airfield? What do they think the engine knows about being in the circuit that will upset it?

[sycamore]

Sorry guys,I had presumed that the end result had been because of an earlier problem,leading to some kind of f/landing,so it looks even more bizarre to end up as it did...
Unfortunately,a lot of pilots seem to extend the downwind leg ,and dragging in on final from a couple of miles,instead of a glide approach and short final.Extending upwind is easier for spacing with multiple a/c in the circuit,but there will always be jokers who join `long final,just in binocular range,and screw up the pattern...

[Steve6443]

A SR22 stalls at about 60kts with flaps down, and I doubt it would be possible to keep its wings level if the forward speed dropped much below that. Maybe there was a 60kt headwind!

You'd be surprised just how docile a Cirrus in a co-ordinated stall can be. The wing is so shaped that it stalls at the root first, causing terrific buffeting to warn the pilot, whilst allowing the wingtip to continue flying, meaning that the ailerons are still effective and can be used to level the wings and keep descending, fully stalled, with the wings parallel to the ground.

[scifi]

Don't forget this was a Cirrus aircraft, not your usual C150 or Tomahawk. Its speed in the circuit is likely to be 130 knots, so a much larger circuit will be flown. Also it has been said that they are a very 'slippery' airplane and take a lot of space to slow down. So a three mile final is quite a possibility, ( compared with a half mile final of a c150.)


.

[Thud105]

130kts in the pattern!!! Really?? Who flies the pattern above a speed you can use even the first stage of flap? The only reason you'd need a 3-mile final is if you were flying way too fast - and 130 is way too fast

[maxred]

Its speed in the circuit is likely to be 130 knots

Really?

very 'slippery' airplane and take a lot of space to slow down.

Speed mgt is part of the PPL syllabus, integrated into the Handling and Performance section.

a half mile final of a c150

Sorry, but is this the way you fly?

There have been several threads on here about flying circuit patterns at airfields. A lot of it is also contained in the AIP of the airfield you are arriving at.

I no nothing about this incident other than whats above and it looks like a positioning issue, to begin with.

[Thud105]

I agree with maxed and airpolice. You fly the plane, you don't let the plane fly you.

[n5296s]

Its speed in the circuit is likely to be 130 knots
Huh? Why? I have some SR20 time, though it was a while ago (not an aircraft I want to fly ever again, either). Vs1 is 61 knots, so Vref is 90-95. No reason to go faster than that in the pattern, maybe 100 on downwind. Which is pretty much what I do in my 182 (downwind - I aim for 65-70 over the numbers).

[DirtyProp]

Here is a copy of the POH for the SR-22T:

http://servicecenters.cirrusdesign.com/techpubs/pdf/POH/SR22-005/pdf/Online13772-005.pdf (https://www.scribd.com/document/293823385/SR22T-G3-POH-Cirrus-Perspective)

Wishing a speedy recovery to the pilot and the pax.

[scifi]

I Airpolice, you say... I'm also curious about the need for a much larger circuit, just because the speed is higher.


It's all about scale and time available, a slow Piper Cub can quite easily fit a circuit inside almost every other aircraft, and would never require more than a one mile Final. An Airbus or Boeing will always aim to have a six to ten mile final, they are often asked to control their speed to a standard 160 knots to 4 miles. The Cirrus just sits somewhere between these two extremes.
.

[B737C525]

An Airbus or Boeing will always aim to have a six to ten mile final

Always...

No...

Generally the minimum height above threshold to be wings level on a circling approach is 300 ft; that would be at one mile. Visual circuits are easily done with wings level at two miles or so.

[DaveUnwin]

"a slow Piper Cub can quite easily fit a circuit inside almost every other aircraft, and would never require more than a one mile Final."

A Cub should never require more than a 1/4 mile final (and that's pushing it!). Abeam the numbers carb heat on, power back, trim, start turning base......

[Piper.Classique]

Well, yes, but sometimes when flying a cub one has to fit in with other traffic. We don't all confine ourselves to bimbling around local from a farm strip, pleasant though that is.

[fireflybob]

Also it has been said that they are a very 'slippery' airplane and take a lot of space to slow down.

Yet another reason to slow up before entering the circuit pattern - it's called energy management.

[DaveUnwin]

Fair point PC. Having read SciFi suggest that 130kts in the circuit was normal for a Cirrus I thought they meant that a 1-mile final was normal in a Cub. Fitting in is a bit different - you gotta do what you gotta do. I must confess that the last time I took a Cub-like contraption on a bimble of any length (LA-SF in a Champ) I did make a mental note to stick to farm strips in Cubs, and take something a bit quicker for the longer legs!

FFB - bang on.