What will YOU do to protect your pay and conditions?

[Air Profit]

Each and every one of us must resolve to take some form of personal action to protect their pay and conditions. That action must be focused and targeted on the holiday season. What will YOU do?

[Air Profit]

CR. I personally know of three trainers who will be resigning with any confirmed cuts to their housing or pension. Two of them are ready to leave the company altogether. Fact, not speculation. Several STC's and TC's have resigned lately, and there are more to follow. I will not personally play a part in the company's plans if they attack us directly (so far there is no attack, only threats). If a contract is imposed, count out one more STC. There are many others i'm sure who will not help the CX after they have attacked their very own housing pay and conditions. Have faith. Incidentally , the main point was what actions are individuals planning on taking over the holidays. The weather is awfully cold, and lung issues become a big problem. Can't fly with the flue or a head cold.

[Air Profit]

Christmas and CNY. We have the upper hand, and from what i'm hearing we are going to use it.

[Air Profit]

Not to mention the added complication of dozens of more resignations every month.

[Air Profit]

The HKAOA does need to be filing court cases regarding the protection of the clause in our contracts regarding 'suitable accommodation'.

[Trafalgar]

Hear hear AP. Time for the AOA to reject dealing with liars and cheats, and begin to focus on PR and strategy.

[Dragon69]

It's obvious the company wants additional and permanent concessions. Who in their right mind would sign a new CoS with such excessive concessions. Reduced housing with severe cuts to our CoS, why bother?

[Amber Vibes]

If the majority of you believe this, then it's time to dump the baby and the bath water.

[Fat_Dumb_and_Unhappy]

CR. I personally know of three trainers who will beresigning with any confirmed cuts to their housing or pension. Two of them are ready to leave the company altogether. Fact, not speculation. Several STC's and TC's have resigned lately, and there are more to follow. I will not personally play a part in the company's plans ifthey attack us directly (so far there is no attack, only threats).

With all due respect, the comment quoted above highlights exactly why we as a pilot group will always face an uphill battle. I can only assume that providing the aforementioned trainers do not suffer any ‘Confirmed’ cuts, then they will continue ops normal, even if the rest of us do have cuts imposed on us. Not to worry though, we always have that pesky entitled ‘Spikey Haired Brigade’ to blame for the degradation of our contracts :D

[gulliBell]

Each and every one of us must resolve to take some form of personal action to protect their pay and conditions. That action must be focused and targeted on the holiday season. What will YOU do?

I vaguely remember the name Tony Tyler, and 42 - or however many CX pilots it was - he necked in one hit the last time the pilots contemplated some collective action on the Industrial front. Unfortunately if history is any indicator, pilots who aren't happy with their employment agreement as offered, it's better to vote individually with your feet and find a better deal elsewhere, and leave on favourable terms at a time of their own choosing, rather than taking some collective action in the hope of scoring a better deal and risk being added to the list of names who ceased to be employed at a time and in circumstances not of their own choosing.

[checklistcomplete]

gulliBell

What planet do you live on ? It was 49 pilots. If you don't even know that you really should keep quiet.

[gulliBell]

Like I said, vague memory...42 or 49, it was a big number to get the chop yet the operation kept on going. Doesn't change the point I was making. And thanks for refreshing my memory on that.

[checklistcomplete]

I have little respect and absolutely no sympathy for the barbies and spikey hair pretty boys who now populate the flight deck and AOA. Most wet behind the ears, zero aviation or life experience and clinging to the protection afforded them by the senior pilots in the company. Your futures are evapourating in front of your eyes and yet you do nothing. NOTHING. Phone home and ask mummy what to do .

[Average Fool]

If this isn't the pot talking to the kettle I don't know what is.

The new generation is there because the generations before them did absolutely nothing to stop the degradation.

[Ipad]

Checklistcomplete you weren’t paying attention it was 51 pilots.

[Captain Dart]

The new (el cheapo) generation is also there because some of the old generation are voluntarily training them.

[checklistcomplete]

Ipad
I didn't want to mention ( out or respect ) our two colleagues who are sadly no longer with us.

[checklistcomplete]

If this isn't the pot talking to the kettle I don't know what is.

The new generation is there because the generations before them did absolutely nothing to stop the degradation.


Ah, so your mummy told you to say that did she !
Honestly, look around you when you go to work next. There are the real pilots and then there is the kindergarden brigade.
Unfortunately for you, other airlines will recruit the real pilots first leaving you lot having to wipe your own backsides for the first time. Good luck with that.
You could of course run back to mummy again.

[Average Fool]

Yes, you have it all correct. The problem lies in the C scalers. If it weren’t for them joining you wouldn’t have your package shrinking.

[Ivanchu]

And what have you done exactly to protect your own terms and conditions? Nothing. No use blaming the c-scalers. Time to take ownership of your own fate.

[tsimbeit]

Pilots have been signing inferior contracts for some 20 years, with the introduction of the B-scale (and the start of the rot).

How much did A Scale improve since B-Scalers joined, what happened to the A-scale?

Blaming the C-scalers?

[LongTimeInCX]

Only if we, collectively, let it.
Has the school bully finally pushed the bespectacled red haired kid just that bit too far, and he's finally going to grow a pair and punch that bully fair and square on the jaw.
Just what does it take?

[LongTimeInCX]

Indeed DanBuster indeed.
Not only was I surprised that to right such a terrible wrong, a forceful confrontation did not ensue, but that so many quitters left when faced with paying 5%.
Very shallow.
LMF they called it in past armed conflicts.

[tsimbeit]

Pilots have been signing inferior contracts for some 20 years, with the introduction of the B-scale (and the start of the rot).

How much did A Scale improve since B-Scalers joined, what happened to the A-scale?

Blaming the C-scalers?

"Not blaming anyone. Just stating fact. The C scalers all seem to think their lot in life can only improve. I'm just pointing out, as history has shown, the opposite is true, and it's all downhill for everyone."

The B-scalers lot in life did improve, how much did A-Scale improve since B-scalers joined, what happened to the A-Scale?

[AQIS Boigu]

D-scale has been around for 18 months - no more forgivable loan which is worth a fair bit

[checklistcomplete]

I overheard a conversation last night in the DB Plaza that summed up everything. A group of relatively junior CX pilots were saying goodbye to one of their ADL classmates who is on his way to QA. In turn each pilot described their application and interview success so far with other companies. Then one of the group announced " look CX is a great airline and you will all want back when this blip is over "( obviously a wanna be manager ). The entire group stood up and poured their beers over her.

[Freehills]

Well, as QA went bankrupt in 2012, she will probably will want to be back when she finds out. Or she meant QR?

[checklistcomplete]

Sorry typo error meant Qantas

[olster]

Cathay should have been literally shut down by the HKAOA and Cathay pilots after the disgraceful 49ers episode. The damage done and the seismic fallout continues to this day. The so - called 'star chamber' and their acolytes should hang their heads in shame. Opportunity lost I'm afraid.

[Trafalgar]

...well, that opportunity was lost. No doubt. Should have all immediately stopped flying until our colleagues were back at work. Simple. However, we now have another opportunity. This time there are MANY jobs calling out to our experience and qualities. CX can't operate without pilots, although they keep trying to bluff that they can (it would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic). As to 'shame'....most of those involved in the star chamber don't know the meaning of the word. They would have been just as effective in 1939 working for the German Govt of the time...if you get my drift. Every one of them will eventually have to confront their conscience. Just glad that I am not one of them. Soulless and inherently evil to have been complicit in destroying so many people and their families (not to mention the suicide of two of them, and then one of their wives in reaction to that event). Words of contempt don't even exist to describe what they are and how I feel about them. And to think, some of them still serve the same master, and haven't gained an ounce of compassion or conscience since. Words fail me. It's time to confront this malignant entity called 'CX'.

[olster]

Couldn't agree more, Trafalgar. I was in CX during the 80/90's and I know most of the protagonists both star chamber and 'victims'. Grotesquely unfair and the low lives who organised the mass sacking seemed to get away unscathed. It would appear that the 'managers' have not learnt their lesson.

[GTC58]

Here is my take on the current situation and managements strategy:

Management knows the golden years are over and the only way to survive is drop the routes that lose money and focus on the premium traffic routes as they are never to be able to compete with LCC or Chinese carriers in the economy segment. As such they have to shrink the airline by at least a third. There is no other choice as CX is losing market share anyways.

To avoid laying off the cheapest pilot labour group, strategy is to make it very unattractive to the more expensive senior pilots. I would say target is a pilot group of around 2000 and 80-90 aircraft. When all the dust has settled with cost cutting, early retirement and pilots leaving, the remainder will be made redundant (to hit the target of 2000). Time frame 3-5 years.

[Trafalgar]

Ohhhh, I see. Shrink your way to market dominance and profitability. Genius plan. Why didn't BA/UA/AA/AF/LH etc think of that. Get down to half their size and pay the pilots peanuts. Wow, I be they wish they had CX management working for them. :hmm:

(ok, seriously. CX will probably be down to half size in about 3 years...why?, because after the shutdown due not enough crew, and the subsequent public/government roasting that will follow, no one will bother flying them anymore).

[tsimbeit]

"(ok, seriously. CX will probably be down to half size in about 3 years...why?, because after the shutdown due not enough crew, and the subsequent public/government roasting that will follow, no one will bother flying them anymore)."

What a great pilot victory.

"If we are sick/stressed/fatigued we don’t fly. If one day you turn up to work and realise that you will not be paid adequately for the job, then you leave. Simple, ENDEX."

I'm sure the next employer will be very happy to recruit this smart lot, and they know how to run airlines too.

[Farman Biplane]

It has nothing to do with victory/loss.
We are pilots employed to fly safely.
If we are sick/stressed/fatigued we don’t fly.
If one day you turn up to work and realise that you will not be paid adequately for the job, then you leave. Simple, ENDEX.

[Trafalgar]

Oh, I see. So you are suggesting that instead of fighting for what is right, we just quit the first time management decides to devalue our career. Not only quit, but then go and start over at another job at the bottom of a seniority list. No, i'll fight thank you, as it's too late for me to switch. However, for those young enough to have a good career elsewhere, they will not only fight and cause you some pain, but they will leave as well and preserve what time they have left in a career at an airline that values them.

[checklistcomplete]

Trafalgar

Your posts are consistent, accurate and sensible. The problem is the young pilots feel totally detached from the senior ones. The HKAOA has done nothing to address this and indeed would appear to be doing the dividing at the behest of the company. Hopeless.

[Farman Biplane]

No Traf, I did not suggest “not fighting” to better our conditions.
I merely pointed out that at the conclusion of this management led initiative every pilot will have to individually determine whether they are sick/stressed/payed enough to continue working at CX.
It is not a war, it does not reflect badly on CX pilots, it is simply a life event.
Be careful when you start to attack your supporters, you might end up as an army of one.

[checklistcomplete]

GTC58

A few years ago there was another niche airline called Swiss Air ( not the current manifistation ) and it lasted 2 years after it's plan to consolidate and reduce scale. It was taken over by it's commuter division CrossAir.
In todays industry it is expand or die. You can't expand without pilots. You can increase the hubs, destinations, admin staff, check in staff, ground staff, launch a new brand, pretend to empower your employees, but nothing moves until the PILOT says "Start Number 4 ".

Try explaining to the admin and ground staff that they are no longer needed or paid because the company has everything it needs EXCEPT PILOTS.

Then try explaining 2 years to train an SO, 5 years to upgrade to FO and 10 years to command. Try telling then to come back in 2027 when they have done this.

[Mill Worker]

In the dying days of Swiss Air, all the debt from Swissport, SR Tech, Crossair and their ground handling operation was transferred to Swiss Air. When they folded the other businesses were debt free and ready to go and little Crossair turned into Swiss with wide body longhaul jets.

[tsimbeit]

checklistcomplete

The airline collapsed because it over-extended itself by buying stakes in numerous loss-making airlines, including Belgium's Sabena and Poland's Lot, in an attempt to form its own airline alliance.

The remains of Swissair and the regional carrier Crossair were brought together in 2002 to form the new national carrier Swiss.
After a shaky start which threatened the existence of the fledgling airline, Swiss was taken over by Germany's Lufthansa in 2005.

[BlunderBus]

If I was the company... listening to you all would be Exactly what I wanted to hear!

[Trafalgar]

...Listening to us...? That is the one thing they NEVER do. Which is why this airline is such a hopeless mess.

[cxorcist]

They hear us making noise, but they don’t listen. Part of the problem is that our message is not uniform. The other problem is their own arrogance. They don’t see things how they really are because the truth is rather inconvenient for them. They just keep parroting the same tired slogans, hoping the repetition makes us believe them, but most of us have seen this same song and dance for too long. RH, AT, DP - I know you are all liars and do not believe you!

[morningcoffee]

Trafalgar

Your posts are consistent, accurate and sensible. The problem is the young pilots feel totally detached from the senior ones. The HKAOA has done nothing to address this and indeed would appear to be doing the dividing at the behest of the company. Hopeless.

B scalers threw the C scalers under a bus with last week’s surprise. Hard for the AOA to address anything without any unity. Technically it could be argued it’s going against CC since it’s definitely not in the spirit.

[salad dodging]

The pilots can see no hope of anything good happening at CX , if they stay then just a career of constant erosion of conditions of service and contempt from Management. The lack of direction and leadership is extraordinary. The DFO and the GMA are prepared to burn the airline to the ground and the CEO, who should be pouring a bucket of water over them, is encouraging them to continually alienate the aircrew. Nobody is saying "stop and reach an accommodation with the aircrew", which can only mean that Senior Management want real conflict . The words of Time To Win are just vacuous and empty ramblings , with no real intent to do things differently, just the same old gameplay. Threaten and impose. Stand by this week , with the announcement of the new imposed housing allowance, to see the end of any hope of a reconciliation.

[Freehills]

I think they honestly don't get it.

In their view, the rest of the airline got hit with 600 firings, including many long standing colleagues and friends. Heck, a swire prince got the push. So it is only fair that crew share the pain.

But, for those ground staff that didn't get the chop, package didn't change. Sure, workload increased, but no impact on take home.

Firing 10-30% of crew, because they are surplus to requirements after a re-org, would be equivalent, and frankly understandable - if the work isn't there, it isn't there.

Cutting crew costs 10-30% with the same number of crew is a completely different scenario. But in their mind, it is the same, and you are being selfish and ignoring the sacrifice of the 600 by not agreeing

[Dan Winterland]

It's not the same at all as the Cathays can't afford to lose any pilots. They need more than the current numbers to keep the operation going and to fulfil the expansion plans. If they offer lower remuneration, you have the choice to accept the new terms - or leave. If too many leave, then they will have torevisit the Ts and Cs.

They are hoping that not too many will leave for their plans to work. The way I see it, with the numbers already deciding it's time to move on without knowing the terms of the lower offer, it's never going to work.

It's market forces. The market is not in their favour.

[Trafalgar]

It's not necessarily about lower pay and conditions. It IS all about 'faith' and 'trust'. No matter what this management 'promises' for the future, their past behaviour, with countless lies, deceit and bullying has convinced most of us that there can be no future with CX. Few of us are willing to risk our futures, and that of our families based on the promises of a proven group of narcissistic liars. They ALWAYS renege or ignore the promises they make. Every single time. Now that there is a proven long-term history of such treatment, their continued lies are seen for what they are. We (the collective 'we') are either in the process of leaving, or making our plans to do so. A simple audit of those I have flown with these past few months makes that plainly clear. The airline is already doomed, only our management can't see it. But that is no surprise, as arrogance blinds them to the facts around them.

[raven11]

They can try and “impose” what they like. The TB and CC would then continue, the number of trainers will continue to decline (along with line pilot resignations) until the operation becomes unsustainable.

[Gnadenburg]

It's market forces. The market is not in their favour.

What should concern anyone planning to stay around, is the way pilot retention is being mismanaged. Unless the end goal is to shrink Cathay Pacific? There seems to be little doubt that KA pilots too, are being driven into contract compliance. Can the operation survive both pilot groups in CC? The consequence of this, as you've pointed out, is a number of pilots are looking about in self-preservation- career and health amidst a stressful and toxic culture.

I've been quite surprised. Pilots who only a few months ago had 3 year plans, 5 year plans, 10 year plans, after looking about and assessing the two buckets, are looking toward a future beyond Hong Kong.

It all seems to be going so distressingly bad, it must be deliberate?

[cxorcist]

It all seems to be going so distressing bad, it must be deliberate?

I’ve wondered the same, but I don’t think it is deliberate. If CX wants to get smaller (I call this becoming a boutique carrier), they will be handing HKA marketshare without a fight. The third runway and additional gate space will go almost entirely to competitors.

Does CX gain more or less pricing power this way? Competitors can undercut you on price to the point of losing money, and because of their size they survive. Eventually, you get pushed out of the market altogether.

The only way to make the boutique airline model work is to offer a product that no competitor can compete with. Clearly, CX has been going the opposite direction with the product.

Also, even if the profit margin becomes better in a boutique carrier, the airline doesn’t necessarily make more money. A 2% margin now makes the same money as a 4% margin at half the size.

If CX thinks they will get both margin expansion and maintain growth simply by cutting costs, then I want some of what they’re smoking, or snorting.