Help! Moving to USA

[ghost7]

HI Everyone,

Hope someone Can answer My question or give me any advice ,

I'm 38 years old moving to US in the near future with my family , we have a green card and I have an FAA ATP ME A320 type rating license , currnetly I'm an IP or TRI on A320 with almost 10000hr of experience (700hr on B737, 9300hr on A320 which 4500 PIC and 1000hr as IP:Instructor Pilot)

what will be my chances to get hired by any company?

Thanks

[galaxy flyer]

You’re a shoe-in at a regional; might be thought too qualified for legacies. Majors like Spirit would be interested. Do you have a 4-year degree?. Without one, definitely hard to get the call at a legacy. Remember, here you WILL start at the bottom of the seniority list.

[ghost7]

Hi Galaxy
Thanks for your reply,
I don't have a 4-year degree, I have a high school diploma.
Starting at the bottom of the seniority list :you mean as A First officer ?, if SO how much time to get upgraded at a Regional ?

thanks

[777-200LR]

Upgrade times at Regionals vary depending on which ones. Can be as little as 18 months, but I sure hope you have some cash stashed away because $35-45/hr isn’t going to be easy with you and your family.

I was in the same shoes as yourself about two years ago and decided against it. Been flying for an Asian carrier and commute home instead.

[galaxy flyer]

Seniority is everything here. No such thing as DEC and upgrades depend on upward movement on the list. You’ll start at the bottom, least liked base in lowest paying plane. A HS diploma will keep your app in “uninterested” pile at most carriers here. Exceptions might be ULCC or regionals and maybe Kallita.

[ghost7]

thank you everyone for the reply ,

I don't have too much choice , except to move to USA and start with Low cost carriers or regional , I thought about commuting but I can't keep my wife alone with 2 baby, I will try to save some money to live for the next 2 or 3 years , in mean while I'll do my best to get the 4-year degree and try to get a job at a legacy .

[flyboyike]

Where exactly are you moving to, if you don't mind my asking?

[flyboyike]

GF, with all due respect, perhaps these sorts of queries are best answered by people who are actually currently working for airlines and/or are involved with recruitment for same.

Just a thought.

You could, however, hook him up on one of y'all's A340s, no?

[bafanguy]

With your training background, you might at least take a look at this. Wouldn't be a flying gig but...just a thought:

Delta Global Services Pilot Training Division is dedicated to providing superior pilot training services by a highly skilled professional workforce. Pilot Instructors are responsible for instructing pilots in flight procedures and techniques and preparing them for validations and evaluations. Apply online at Airline Applications (http://www.airlineapps.com)

[ghost7]

I'm moving to Orlando , maybe in 6 month I'm not sure about the exact period , but if I'll find a job in any other state ,I'll move.

[galaxy flyer]

Why would you think I have A340s? And, did I offer anything that wasn’t true? Name me a US carrier offering DEC to those w/o a thousand hours of 121 time or a legacy regularly interviewing pilots without a college degree.

[bafanguy]

Spirit is worth looking at. A degree is only listed as "preferred" (as is the A320 rating). While your competition may have degrees, do they have the A320 rating and all your check & training experience ?:

https://re12.ultipro.com/spi1000/jobboard/JobDetails.aspx?__ID=*EA7BF78782572B27

[paokara]

I'm moving to Orlando , maybe in 6 month I'm not sure about the exact period , but if I'll find a job in any other state ,I'll move.

I say Spirit or JetBlue will be you best job goal for now, MCO and FLL bases, driving to work
2-4 year upgrade there
then work on the 4 year degree and by 44 get on with the big Airlines (delta, American , united, SWA, FedEx , ups )
...it will be a 4 to 5 million retirement when you are 65

[ghost7]

thank you everyone,

Now I'm still under contract with one of the middle-east company that end by Oct 2018, but the situation here not so clear , there are too many changes, at anytime they can stop our contracts, this is why I'm planing for a job in the next few months, and already decided with my familly to move to USA ,but I have to wait untill end of contract to have end of service benefits that will help me start a new life.
I'm not really interested by big Aircrafts or cargo job, I will be happy to start at a regional.

[havick]

If that’s the case then goto an American Airlines wholly owned regional that has a flow through to mainline (degree or no degree).

I’m an immigrant from Australia on a green card and flying for one of them.

That being said with your background, I agree with the previous comments of going to Kalitta doing cargo, though I’ve been told that Kalitta requires citizenship in order to gain a security clearance for their DoD contracts.

PM me if you want to know more.

[flyboyike]

Wishful thinking!

It’s not that easy for a first generation immigrant, to just waltz into a job at a legacy carrier.



You're kidding, right?

[highroadtochina]

6 years ago I came to the US as a Green Card Holder. This is my experience.
FO salaries are low compared to what we are used to in the ME, Africa, EU or China.
Here is the big thing. Besides some major immigration hurdles AFTER arriving in the US (like Social Security numbers, drivers, renting) you are going to run into problems as a direct entry captain. So instead of me trying to type out a manuscript, please call me. I have answers and suggestions because it is all so painfully fresh to me.

[paokara]

Wishful thinking!

It’s not that easy for a first generation immigrant, to just waltz into a job at a legacy carrier.

I think he would be better off at a cargo, charter or supplemental carrier, and spend his time working on the next generation of his family, by getting them all a degree and a Commercial/Instrument/Multi-Engine at minimum age.

Wrong again
Many including myself are from Europe and flying for a Legacy for years now!!
However we have a Bachelors degree and had **** load of PIC from previous jobs

[paokara]

How many newly arrived green card holders without a four year degree have been hired by Delta, American, United, FedEx or UPS?
I bet not many.
So, no I'm not kidding.

The suggestion was for him to get the 4 year while flying for JB or Spirit and yes many non degree holders at those 2

Read first what I suggested to him
Is English your first language? Sorry but it's my 3rd language in case you did not understand my suggestion to him and I do fly for a legacy for years now!

[flyboyike]

How many newly arrived green card holders without a four year degree have been hired by Delta, American, United, FedEx or UPS?
I bet not many.
So, no I'm not kidding.

That's not what you said originally. You made a general statement about "first-generation" immigrants, which would include naturalized citizens (like myself, for instance). There are plenty of those flying for legacies, so your statement was at the very least incorrect, if not outright defamatory (you accused legacy HR departments of discrimination based on national origin).

You also said nothing about a degree in your original statement. There are only two "legacy" carriers where a four-year degree is absolute requirement, and those are Delta and Alaska. Others will accept a two-year degree. This is regardless of citizenship, so your post was misguided in that regard as well.

Now, to be fair, it's not so easy for ANYONE to, as you so eloquently put it, to "just waltz into a job at a legacy", regardless of nationality.

[ghost7]

6 years ago I came to the US as a Green Card Holder. This is my experience.
FO salaries are low compared to what we are used to in the ME, Africa, EU or China.
Here is the big thing. Besides some major immigration hurdles AFTER arriving in the US (like Social Security numbers, drivers, renting) you are going to run into problems as a direct entry captain. So instead of me trying to type out a manuscript, please call me. I have answers and suggestions because it is all so painfully fresh to me. I will PM you with my contact numbers.

thanks for your reply

any information from you guys will be very helpful , and appreciated.

[TowerDog]

I am first generation immigrant from Europe and work for a legacy.
No degree but bought one on the internet to satisfy that requirement.
During the interview I told the HR lady my degree was not from an accredited school but based on life experience. She checked the box and moved on.
Total cost for the degree was $800.
Had tons of time and type ratings however, perhaps that made up for lack of formal schooling, not sure.
I do know for sure however that I could not go to school for 4 years, would probably go nuts.
After elementary school in the old country I joined the Merchant Marine and sailed around the world on big ships. Spent my money on booze, girls and motorcycles. Started driving cabs at age 20 and saved money for flight school in the US. After flight school I ended up in Alaska flying bush.
No time for college or university. :sad:

[sonicguy]

Excellent! :O

I am first generation immigrant from Europe and work for a legacy.
No degree but bought one on the internet to satisfy that requirement.
During the interview I told the HR lady my degree was not from an accredited school but based on life experience. She checked the box and moved on.
Total cost for the degree was $800.
Had tons of time and type ratings however, perhaps that made up for lack of formal schooling, not sure.
I do know for sure however that I could not go to school for 4 years, would probably go nuts.
After elementary school in the old country I joined the Merchant Marine and sailed around the world on big ships. Spent my money on booze, girls and motorcycles. Started driving cabs at age 20 and saved money for flight school in the US. After flight school I ended up in Alaska flying bush.
No time for college or university. :sad:

[bafanguy]

TowerDog,

Glad it all worked out for you. :cool:

Just to add a little bit of info for our green-card-holding compatriots eyeing a legacy spot where a degree is absolutely required, the equivalency of a non-US degree might be evaluated by a service dealing with such matters.

I know DL does this...don't know about any others. I can't remember the name of the company.

Getting a legacy spot can be a tough hill to climb these days.

[havick]

TowerDog,

Glad it all worked out for you. :cool:

Just to add a little bit of info for our green-card-holding compatriots eyeing a legacy spot where a degree is absolutely required, the equivalency of a non-US degree might be evaluated by a service dealing with such matters.

I know DL does this...don't know about any others. I can't remember the name of the company.

Getting a legacy spot can be a tough hill to climb these days.

Unless you join a regional with a flow contract in which case you’re guaranteed a slot at said legacy. At the very least it’s good insurance should you not get hired off the street.

[bafanguy]

Unless you join a regional with a flow contract in which case you’re guaranteed a slot at said legacy. At the very least it’s good insurance should you not get hired off the street.

havick,

Yes, it sounds like that's the case and I'm glad to see it.

DL, however, has no formal, guaranteed "flow" arrangement with its wholly-owned, Endeavor. They have a "guaranteed" interview via some LOA that came with NWA, IIUC.

I'd have to dig up a contract and read...which I'm too lazy to do. I see nothing currently being said about an actual flow like AA has with its wholly-owneds. I'm happy to be corrected from a documented source.

If one tracks the reports on RST about the "Endeavor-only" interview days in Hapeville, they hire surprisingly few of the "guaranteed" interviewees compared to street urchins. I doubt it's a reflection on the interviewees but rather DL avoiding depleting staff at a wholly-owned which CEO, Ed Bastion, is on record as saying he has NO intention of folding into mainline.

If DL were wise, they'd have a formal flow. Who ever thought one would say DL should be more like AA ? :*:=

P.S. The above doesn't account for the relative handful hired under the ill fated E2D program. Not sure what the disposition of those folks is/will be.

P.P.S. OK...I found a flicker of motivation and looked at the PWA and found LOA #9 involving Compass Airlines mentioning what sounds like a guaranteed flow up under some specified conditions. I started reading and saw the number of "WHEREFOREs and WHEREASs"...and suddenly ran out of motivation again. It's a fleeting thing these days.

Someone will come along shortly to explain how/if this is even being implemented. Neither the Compass nor Trans States website mentions a guaranteed flow to DL. You'd expect to see them shouting that deal from the rooftops if it were still in effect.

Zondaracer ?

http://www.compassairline.com/careers/pages/pilots.aspx

http://www.transstates.net/careers/Pages/pilots.aspx

[havick]

havick,

Yes, it sounds like that's the case and I'm glad to see it.

DL, however, has no formal, guaranteed "flow" arrangement with its wholly-owned, Endeavor. They have a "guaranteed" interview via some LOA that came with NWA, IIUC.

I'd have to dig up a contract and read...which I'm too lazy to do. I see nothing currently being said about an actual flow like AA has with its wholly-owneds. I'm happy to be corrected from a documented source.

If one tracks the reports on RST about the "Endeavor-only" interview days in Hapeville, they hire surprisingly few of the "guaranteed" interviewees compared to street urchins. I doubt it's a reflection on the interviewees but rather DL avoiding depleting staff at a wholly-owned which CEO, Ed Bastion, is on record as saying he has NO intention of folding into mainline.

If DL were wise, they'd have a formal flow. Who ever thought one would say DL should be more like AA ? :*:=

P.S. The above doesn't account for the relative handful hired under the ill fated E2D program. Not sure what the disposition of those folks is/will be.

P.P.S. OK...I found a flicker of motivation and looked at the PWA and found LOA #9 involving Compass Airlines mentioning what sounds like a guaranteed flow up under some specified conditions. I started reading and saw the number of "WHEREFOREs and WHEREASs"...and suddenly ran out of motivation again. It's a fleeting thing these days.

Someone will come along shortly to explain how/if this is even being implemented. Neither the Compass nor Trans States website mentions a guaranteed flow to DL. You'd expect to see them shouting that deal from the rooftops if it were still in effect.

Zondaracer ?

http://www.compassairline.com/careers/pages/pilots.aspx

http://www.transstates.net/careers/Pages/pilots.aspx

Yes i was referring to the likes of Envoy, PSA, Piedmont that has contractual flow to AA mainline.

[TowerDog]

No doubt a legacy is the Holly Grail of flying jobs in the US, especially now with us gray beards retirering in droves.
That being said I was happier and had more fun at lesser outfits, Evergreen and Tower Air. Comes to mind.
Also flew for Tradewinds while on furlough from AA and got hired DEC on the 747-200.
(It is doable in the US if a company is desperate enough for experienced guys.
Also been DEC on DC-3s and Twin-Otters in the US (Virgin Islands).
With non-sked outfits and freight dog carriers one can move up the seniority list faster, and many smaller carriers are not as anal with training and chicken-sh!t as the majors.
One of my buddies got hired as an MD-80 Captain for a charter outfit in MIA 2 years ago:
Today he is a check airman and the most senior pilot on the property. (Yes, not many benefits, but with some overtime on days off and seniority to pick your flights and days off, he is doing ok.)

[havick]

No doubt a legacy is the Holly Grail of flying jobs in the US, especially now with us gray beards retirering in droves.
That being said I was happier and had more fun at lesser outfits, Evergreen and Tower Air. Comes to mind.
Also flew for Tradewinds while on furlough from AA and got hired DEC on the 747-200.
(It is doable in the US if a company is desperate enough for experienced guys.
Also been DEC on DC-3s and Twin-Otters in the US (Virgin Islands).
With non-sked outfits and freight dog carriers one can move up the seniority list faster, and many smaller carriers are not as anal with training and chicken-sh!t as the majors.
One of my buddies got hired as an MD-80 Captain for a charter outfit in MIA 2 years ago:
Today he is a check airman and the most senior pilot on the property. (Yes, not many benefits, but with some overtime on days off and seniority to pick your flights and days off, he is doing ok.)

Those other carriers you mentioned earlier are good options but a lot of them have DoD contracts which requires a security clearance, you can only get a security clearance with citizenship.

I would goto Kalitta tomorrow being that I live within an hour drive from JFK however they require citizenship. By then time my citizenship comes through in approx 18-24 months from now I will probably be close to flowing to AA.

[TowerDog]

Those other carriers you mentioned earlier are good options but a lot of them have DoD contracts which requires a security clearance, you can only get a security clearance with citizenship.

I would goto Kalitta tomorrow being that I live within an hour drive from JFK however they require citizenship. By then time my citizenship comes through in approx 18-24 months from now I will probably be close to flowing to AA.

True enough.
I got my my citizen ship in 1995 because it was “recommended”. (Spook speak for required)
I still flew the Desert Shield Ops for the DOD for Evergreen on a green card, even got security briefings from the US Army intelligence. My country of citizenship was a NATO member and my background check came in clean.
Not a big risk to have me fly FO to Dhahran while Saddam was shooting scuds up our areses. :sad:
Maybe different now but don’t turn yourself down. Apply anyway.

As for the college degree:
Before 1978 the airlines required no degree. Instead they gave you an IQ Test.
The IQ tests were outlawed about that time, discrimination. :sad:
Then the airlines went looking for college graduates, as an average college graduate had a higher IQ than a non graduate.
Problem solved, but for pilots who spent more time flying than going to school it became a problem: the politically correct recruiting departments had to check that box.
( Chuck Yeager did not have a college degree and he did just fine.)

Some of us got a away with no degree, your mileage may vary. :sad:

[DUXNUTZ]

TowerDog,

Glad it all worked out for you. :cool:

Just to add a little bit of info for our green-card-holding compatriots eyeing a legacy spot where a degree is absolutely required, the equivalency of a non-US degree might be evaluated by a service dealing with such matters.

I know DL does this...don't know about any others. I can't remember the name of the company.

Getting a legacy spot can be a tough hill to climb these days.

My Aussie Masters degree was evaluated as equivalent to a regional university in the States ( by DALs own preferred law firm). Delta HR gave me the shakedown at a job fair as largely being unworthy due to my foreign education and flight experience. YMMV. US citizen and ATP.

[bafanguy]

DUXNUTZ,


PM sent...

[TowerDog]

My Aussie Masters degree was evaluated as equivalent to a regional university in the States ( by DALs own preferred law firm). Delta HR gave me the shakedown at a job fair as largely being unworthy due to my foreign education and flight experience. YMMV. US citizen and ATP.

Don’t let that slow you down, keep applying to other companies, and re-apply to Delta once the system let you.

[EXDAC]

"I’ve been told that Kalitta requires citizenship in order to gain a security clearance for their DoD contracts"

As a green card holder and British national I was treated as a "US person" for security purposes. I worked at a defense contractor's site on a military program without being a citizen and had the same access as a US citizen.

I have no doubt that there are security clearances that would require US citizenship but not all do.

[havick]

Guaranteed flow through to a major?
How long have you been in this business !
Nothing is guaranteed ever.
When they tell you it is, they are lying.
Why would they lie?
To keep you in your place.


Now lets assume you get a regional job at a flow through to just one carrier.
Lets say your upgrade takes three years, and your lucky number takes another four.
Then that's been seven of waiting in a job you out grew many years before.
Do you turn down a job offer with a decent major like Southwest, JetBlue or Alaska?
Now you really do have all your eggs in one basket.


Now let's consider all the things that can, and do go wrong with that plan.
1/ Your company falls out of favor by the FAA.
2/ Your company falls out with the parent company.
3/ The parent company decides to close your airline or consolidate them.
4/ The parent company closes your hub
5/ A bidding war erupts between the regionals. First you take a pay cut, and then get downgraded.
6/ The parent company stops hiring.
7/ The parent company furloughs, and their people flow back on top of you.
Maybe you can think of a hundred and one more things that can and will happen.


Or you could do what I would.
Get a ATP and some airline training and experience and then move on.


I would rather spend my time at a supplemental carrier than a regional.
I think things will happen faster, you'll have more fun and make more money doing so.

No sh*t Sherlock, thanks for being captain obvious.

Wholly owned with a flow is great insurance. Of course everyone is also looking elsewhere other than where the flow leads. Sure is a nice insurance plan though compared to being at Skywest or wherever that have been there 15+ years not getting calls by majors at all.

Lots of guys leaving for other legacy gigs outside of the flow, those that aren’t are within 12 months of flowing

[B2N2]

Don't worry about Kalitta, let Connie be Connie and do what ever they want too.
I too was a green card holder and British national, and was rejected by them.
Too many fish in the sea, to worry about one.
Sky Lease and National have 74s, and are looking for people.

And so are Atlas.
And they take green card holders.
And they’re in the same business as Kalitta.

[TowerDog]

Nah, stay away from Skylease.
They have been on the verge of the abyss several times recently.
Furloughs, re-calls, no pay checks, no money for fuel, parked planes, etc.
The. After hurricane Irma they got a boost flying relief to San Juan.
Bottom feeder, but quick upgrades and heavy time if you got nothing else going on, just don’t get married, don’t make kids and don’t take up too many mortgages:((

[skidbuggy]

You might wish to consider one of the bottom feeder A320 operators such Jetblue. I’ve been told they’ve taken guys from Cebu Pacific, PAL, Avianca and the likes. Might be something to consider until you can get a degree and go to a reputable airline.

Best of luck to you

[havick]

I can do without the No Sn*t Sherlock, Captain obvious comment.
A claim was made. I made a rebuttal.

No, a flow through is not great insurance, when it’s a false insurance designed to lure you into a false sense of security. Just like the advertisement that uses the phrase ‘peace of mind’. You know you’ve been had.

A friend went to Horizon many years ago, and became comfortable. Too comfortable, and he stayed. Oh he talked about going to Alaska, but never seemed to do much about getting there.

Now if he had realized the hard truths of the of the regional business, and picked the worst one with the fastest upgrade. Then every day he’d be scrambling to get out.
A crappy company is a great motivator for upward mobility.

You plan your next move whilst your in ground school, and you make it happen.
You only have yourself to blame of it doesn’t.
For these are the best times I’ve ever known.
If your still at Skywest after 15 years, your not trying.
You can’t just send stuff out and wait for a call.
You have to work the phones and pound the pavement too.
I used to have a rule, that every day I had to do something to better my lot in life.
You know what? It worked.

I agree with everything you’re saying and I’m doing exactly that myself. But to say the flow is useless is a false statement, say that to the guys currently flowing now that never got a call that have the right resume, did all the job fairs, networked, no skeletons etc. we have jumpseaters all the time from companies without flow through that time and time again say they wish they went to a wholly owned with a flow.

[flyboyike]

I agree with everything you’re saying and I’m doing exactly that myself. But to say the flow is useless is a false statement, say that to the guys currently flowing now that never got a call that have the right resume, did all the job fairs, networked, no skeletons etc. we have jumpseaters all the time from companies without flow through that time and time again say they wish they went to a wholly owned with a flow.


I'm sure they wish that, even though they have no way of knowing when (or if) they would have flowed had they been with said regional.


To me, these "flows" really benefit largely only those pilots who would have had little to no chance of going to the relevant mainline operator in the absence of such an arrangement. At the same time, it actually (in my opinion) handicaps those pilots who could have got in on merit, because they have to wait for their number to come up. In the meantime, the world can flip twenty (or more) times.

[bafanguy]

You might wish to consider one of the bottom feeder A320 operators such Jetblue.

Hmmm, I might not be too quick to throw JB in that category. They're not DL, UAL, AA or SWA but they're working on it.

It's likely as hard to get hired by JB as any other career-destination carrier. :ok:

[B2N2]

If you get a green card, it is a permanent residency card.
To maintain it you must remain a resident of the US.
You can not go to work in Asia or South America and keep your green card active.

True.
You’ll need to wait till you have your US Passport.

[fuelsurvey]

True.
You’ll need to wait till you have your US Passport.

I live in the US with a green card and commute to work in Asia.

[megan]

A little off thread, but I've always been amused by the insistence in the US to have a degree. The OP has all the experience, but lacks a degree. He can obviously do the job. Did my flight training as a foreign student (some 40 of us) with the USN, all of us with just high school education, and no one had any troubles, though the USN demanded a degree for the natives to apply.

[Luggage]

Apply to Norwegian as a DEC or FO with your time. They
Are hiring in FLL so you could live in base.

Fly a 787 and lead a pretty good life down there.

[bafanguy]

A little off thread, but I've always been amused by the insistence in the US to have a degree.

megan,

This has been much discussed (with a case to be made on both sides) but it all comes down to one fact of life: the airline Cubicle Farms at many of the most desirable carriers have decreed it so.

It's their party so they decide who gets invited. You can certainly find the occasional exception but it's pervasive enough to consider it The Law of the Jungle.

Even among those carriers who list it as "preferred", at this moment in history, I'd venture a guess that most of your competition WILL have one. Competition at the legacy level is amazingly fierce. Legions of very good applicants can't get so much as the steam off the legacy airlines' yellow snow.

I've not seen any data on what percentage of otherwise qualified applicants have degrees vs not. It might be enlightening to see that data if it even exists.

If those alleging a pilot shortage are correct, many carriers may have to drop the inviolable demand for a degree; that remains to be seen.

SEATS WILL BE FILLED !!! Bet the grocery money on that one.

DL's hiring manager recently stated at a meeting with a group of affiliated pilots that DL will NEVER drop the degree requirement. Take that for what it's worth...

[galaxy flyer]

I had the good fortune to be coached forty-five plus years by senior TW and PA captains. The happy result of growing up and learning to fly in Fairfield County, CT. One TW training captain told me, having grumbled about pilot selection process, was shown a filing cabinets of applications. The VP Operstions and Personnel told him, “sort it out.” As Kenny said, “if you’re trying to whittle down thousands of applications to hundreds to be interviewed for tens to be hired, a good place to start is college education.” Get your degree, he advised.

Besides, if the job is considered a “profession”, a college degree sounds professional. Execs with MBAs are more willing to cough up 300k for college grads than high school grads.

True then, true now.

GF

[megan]

It's OK, I get it that it's their train set and can set the goal posts where ever they like. Just had a friends son (Navy), high school education, graduate from military pilots course and did so well that the Air Force asked him to swap service and fly the F-18. We've had guys with nothing more than high school go through USN, USAF and ETPS test pilot courses. Horses for courses I guess.

Wonder if the degree requirement would last if the pilot shortage gets as bad as some predict.a college degree sounds professionalDon't know the quality of college education in the US, but here you can get a degree in left handed basket weaving, if you get my drift.

[Airbubba]

I had the good fortune to be coached forty-five plus years by senior TW and PA captains. The happy result of growing up and learning to fly in Fairfield County, CT.

I don't believe I ever met an original Pan Am pilot without a college degree. Also, of the folks hired prior to 1987, only one I knew had a non-military background. Pan Am even required a four-year college degree for its flight attendants until they started hiring B-scalers in the late 1980's.

The two big clubs at Pan Am were Yale and the Naval Academy. In the 1980's Pan Am merged National Airlines and a commuter airline named Ransome onto their pilot seniority list. The rather patrician Pan Am pilots looked down their noses at the other pilots because they came to dinner without wearing their school ties. ;)

[bafanguy]

It's OK, I get it that it's their train set and can set the goal posts where ever they like. We've had guys with nothing more than high school go through USN, USAF and ETPS test pilot courses.

megan,

I agree. The ability of a bright, motivated person w/o a college degree to do the job is NOT in dispute. As you point out, there's plenty of empirical evidence to support their suitability.

That's leaves nothing at work in these cases but the people who own the train set...and their ability to call the shots.

I'd suspect that the degree requirement will fall if/when supply gets to the point the business plan is threatened..."IF" "WHEN". At that point airline managements will massage their rhetoric to magically pronounce H.S. grads as terrific candidates with no reference to what this demonstrates about their previous stance on the matter.

In the meantime, how many good candidates did they pass over...and will they rue not having access to them any longer ?

[fuelsurvey]

If you get a green card, it is a permanent residency card.
To maintain it you must remain a resident of the US.
You can not go to work in Asia or South America and keep your green card active.

You can be a resident of the US and work elsewhere. I file taxes as a resident, have a driver's license in the U.S, cars, house, wife and kids. I just happen to leave the country for a few weeks at a time for work.
No hassles at the border and no immigration judge would question where I reside.

[A320 CURSED]

Ghost7, I did the same thing you have in mind doing and I am paying very high price for that mistake.
Unless you get a lucky strike or belong to the lucky sperm club I would recommend to do what fuelsurvey is doing if you want to conserve your composture and dignity.
Very hard to get with the majors where you will find good working conditions.
Regionals are tough, and QOL sucks compared to what you have (believe me).
How about flying cargo in a 777F for $3,600 usd a month, (oh, yeah still have to deduct taxes from that) and also an extra $1,000 month if you have the audacity of daring to aspire to provide health insurance to your wife and 2 kids, because that is An expensive privilege that you have to pay.
The above example is not uncomon to small Air carries here in the US.
Some other cargo outfits pay a decent salary but you will be gone 20 and 22 days in a row a month.
Allegiant can be a nice option, even though I have 2,300 hrs on the Busses it does not seem to have enough weight.
Be careful.
Just my 2 cents...

[galaxy flyer]

HR departments at US carriers hire the person, not the hours or a type rating. Be warned!

GF

[bafanguy]

HR departments at US carriers hire the person, not the hours or a type rating.

GF,

Exactly. And it's a very difficult concept to get across to people.

As the mandatory retirements increase, it'll be fun to watch what constitutes the appropriate "person" in the eyes of desirable employers.

:oh:

[Predator12]

It totalydepends on where you are moving to... can you answer that if you don't mind? The region you are moving to?

[galaxy flyer]

GF,

Exactly. And it's a very difficult concept to get across to people.

As the mandatory retirements increase, it'll be fun to watch what constitutes the appropriate "person" in the eyes of desirable employers.

:oh:

At the legacies, I don’t see it changing much, perhaps 4-year degree will be preferred at WN, for example. The US has such a robust “farm league” that DL, AA, UA, FDX can sustain the 4-degree for a long time. The short lasting AA, UA an initio plan in the late 60s required a degree and the candidate get a CPL on their own. Didn’t last long, but I think Rick “Choke the Goose” Dubinsky was one of them.

GF

[bafanguy]

At the legacies, I don’t see it changing much, perhaps 4-year degree will be preferred at WN, for example.

A person I know recently attended a meeting where the head of DL's pilot employment spoke. He said DL will "never" drop the requirement for a 4-year degree. Never is a strong word but that's what he said.

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys the requirements in the US are tailored to the american system. High school in the US is NOT comparable to Europe (no offence meant), it just isn’t a good enough level. So the requirement for uni simply makes sure the applicant has achieved a minimum acceptable standard of academic education to represent a major company as he moves up the ranks.
Now, me and you know that having been to uni means nothing in terms of defining a person, however like I said the US high school diploma simply doesn’ t cover enough compared to other places of the world.

[bafanguy]

Guys the requirements in the US are tailored to the american system. High school in the US is NOT comparable to Europe...

So the requirement for uni simply makes sure the applicant has achieved a minimum acceptable standard of academic education to represent a major company as he moves up the ranks.

bbt80s,

You might be right with your comparison of American education system at the high school level to other countries. I don't really know as I have no basis for comparison. Perhaps you do...not interested in debating that as it accomplishes nothing germane to the issue.

Our government education system leaves something to be desired at the elementary and high school levels with appropriate blame for all involved parties.

But that aside...the college degree requirement at career-destination airlines is much debated here with cases to be made on both sides.

However, there's one simple, pragmatic principle at work here: pilot requirements are the airlines' game so THEY make up the rules of that game, right, wrong or neither. All the debate in the world won't change it; only supply/demand forces can and it's unlikely they will here in the USA.

[And, yes, you can find the occasional example of a person who got to a US legacy without a degree. That doesn't disprove or negate the broader facts.]

The airline HR types will have their own list of reasons why they insist on a 4-year degree. Your statement that it's for an "...acceptable standard of academic education to represent a major company as he moves up the ranks." is as good as any since the reasons they require it don't matter.

They DO require it...your competition for highly competitive spots WILL have one even if the employer only lists it as "preferred".

Competition for the spots at the career-destination carriers here is FIERCE and RELENTLESS but often puzzling and infuriating so I can understand why expats coming here with the legal ability (and quals) to fly for an airline would find it all irritating.

[JPJP]

perhaps 4-year degree will be preferred at WN, for example.

That’s already the case. However, 98% of new hires have at a minimum a bachelors degree. The majority of military hires have the obligatory masters degree. The new hires that I’ve flown with that don’t have a degree, have all been exceptional in some other way.

[CaptainJim]

Apply to Norwegian as a DEC or FO with your time. They
Are hiring in FLL so you could live in base.

Fly a 787 and lead a pretty good life down there.

Working max hours with minimum pay for the worst low cost 787 operator in the world?

Good advice!:D

[kiltedrebel]

I'm moving to Orlando , maybe in 6 month I'm not sure about the exact period , but if I'll find a job in any other state ,I'll move.

Try JetBlue. Their main training facility is within the grounds of MCO and they're always looking for FAA qualified pilots.

[ghost7]

Hi

I'm in Orlando right now.

[flyboyike]

Hi

I'm in Orlando right now.

Welcome. I'm a little over an hour away in Ormond Beach, based at MCO.

[zondaracer]

Hi

I'm in Orlando right now.
Did you end up finding employment?

[Tinstaafl]

I live in Orlando too. Had been flying Pt 135 and Pt 91 corporate, but started early this year with PSA. I have to commute, right now, to Philadelphia but that changes to Charlotte in August.

The 3 American wholly owned regionals have a direct flow through to AA, although it can take a while. They all have direct entry Capt. positions too.