David Davis demanded RAF plane for Brexit talks. [Archive]

Hangarshuffle

20th Nov 2017, 18:46

David Davis 'demanded private RAF plane for Brexit talks' | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-brexit-negotiations-private-raf-plane-demand-brussels-talks-european-union-eu-capitals-a8064656.html)

A linky to story about the minister for negotiations and chaos asking for a lift. Well,maybe its not an unreasonable request. A Fairey Battle would have been about right, possibly. 3 seater wasnt it?
Whats the true story, G men? What does he fly about in?

BEagle

20th Nov 2017, 18:53

Fareastdriver

20th Nov 2017, 18:57

That's what I thought 32 Sqn's job was.

32 (The Royal) Squadron’s role today is Command Support Air Transport (CSAT) - the movement of small groups of high priority personnel or cargo by air in order to facilitate global key leadership engagement and further UK influence. The Squadron is tasked to deliver a safe, secure and responsive CSAT capability for senior military commanders, Government Ministers and occasionally the Royal Family.

Hangarshuffle

20th Nov 2017, 18:59

To be fair he had a point. He is a minister doing work on our behalf. Give him a...Herc? Merlin?

ShyTorque

20th Nov 2017, 19:09

How about a Lancaster bomber? :E

Always a Sapper

20th Nov 2017, 19:10

Get the Lanc out the hanger, even better if they have a few meetings over Merkel's way!

Trim Stab

20th Nov 2017, 19:12

to facilitate global key leadership engagement and further UK influence.

That rather rules out DD then...

VX275

20th Nov 2017, 19:19

I knew there was a reason the RAF should have kept at least one Anson.

Hangarshuffle

20th Nov 2017, 19:30

A pusser's travel warrant. 4 per year only, not valid via London stations and by cheapest route possible. Now that would make him sit up.

MPN11

20th Nov 2017, 19:52

Cheap shots, chaps. As Fareastdriver highlighted, that's what 32 is all about.

The fact that there are some arssseholes in Government is not a topic for Military Aviation, even if one of them is my MP..

Basil

20th Nov 2017, 20:03

It would seem perfectly reasonable to me for the RAF to provide transport for a senior minister who is engaged in difficult negotiation but, of course, that wouldn't be The Indy view, would it?

Davef68

20th Nov 2017, 20:11

Would it be cheaper if he didn't have to take a 146 and had a nice little exec jet to fly?

Is it only in the UK that providing transport to senior Govt is seen as wasteful?

Rosevidney1

20th Nov 2017, 20:16

As it was the 'Independent' dead tree press (It doesn't seem to match the definition of the Trade Descriptions Act) I'm pretty sure the wording that should have been used was 'requested' and not 'demanded'.

NutLoose

20th Nov 2017, 20:36

I can see him pulling up in the provided Grob.

ShotOne

20th Nov 2017, 20:39

What are the aircraft doing that's more important to the UK than these negotiations?

Flap62

20th Nov 2017, 21:22

BEagle,

You are becoming rather tiresome. The question was a valid one about ministerial rights, do you really have to use it as an opportunity to flog your increasingly turgid agenda?

thunderbird7

20th Nov 2017, 21:28

Couldnt he just get the train?

NutLoose

20th Nov 2017, 21:42

I agree with the plane BTW, it allows for being able to commute to meeting without being limited to train timetables, the question is why are we having to go there and not a 50 / 50 split. You are always in a weaker position in the other guys home turf so to speak, as they are controlling the agenda.

Davef68

20th Nov 2017, 22:10

You are always in a weaker position in the other guys home turf so to speak, as they are controlling the agenda.

Without getting too political, as soon as we agreed to pay a 'leaving bill' they controlled the agenda.

Royalistflyer

20th Nov 2017, 22:37

He's a minister, ministers are entitled, its in the rules. End of. There should be no griping, the RAF carries them according to order, it should have no opinion about this it is the government's business.

Brian 48nav

21st Nov 2017, 08:32

You took the words out of my mouth.

Beagle

Thank goodness you and your like were either not around or seen off in 1940 - otherwise we would all be speaking German now.

For goodness sake man, the country has voted democratically to leave the wretched EU, it is about time you supported the choice!

cornish-stormrider

21st Nov 2017, 09:02

A 52/48 split based on lies misdirection and bull**** is not what I'd call democratic

The whole thing is a shambles and will send us into a huge recession to sate the needs of the little englanders......

@@@@@@@ marvellous

We who didn't want this will keep reminding you of this when we are an offshore tax haven with no NHS, schools or public services, a military that can fit every person into a tennis court and lots of homeless

But the rich will be fine

Warmtoast

21st Nov 2017, 09:02

Today it's David Davis, but it wasn't so long ago (well twelve years to be exact) that The Independent was complaining about Margaret Beckett the then Environment Minister who was given the sobriquet 'Air-Miles Margaret' for overusing 32 Sqn for her jaunts around Europe.
See here: 'Air-Miles Margaret' faces criticism for private flights | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/air-miles-margaret-faces-criticism-for-private-flights-300715.html) - "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"!

Duchess_Driver

21st Nov 2017, 09:04

Thank goodness you and your like were either not around or seen off in 1940 - otherwise we would all be speaking German now.

For goodness sake man, the country has voted democratically to leave the wretched EU, it is about time you supported the choice!

I may be wrong here, but I thought we defended the right to freedom of speech along with the right for self determination and freedom from oppression back then.

Just because others voted to push the self-destruct button, doesn't mean I have to support their stupidity. :=

Back on topic, not too long ago these pages were full of discussion about the utilisation of private charters for ministerial or royal travel and how it showed some 'lesser status'... it seems you can't win whatever you do.

melmothtw

21st Nov 2017, 09:36

Thank goodness you and your like were either not around or seen off in 1940 - otherwise we would all be speaking German now.

Sums up everything that is wrong with the Brexit mindset - the EU is not the Third Reich and Europeans are not our enemy.

For goodness sake man, the country has voted democratically to leave the wretched EU, it is about time you supported the choice!

If I am on a bus with 99 other people and 52 of those people vote to drive the bus off a cliff, I will not support that choice.

I didn't start this thread drift, but back on topic. If it's government business, I see no reason the RAF shouldn't be used.

ShotOne

21st Nov 2017, 09:48

Whatever anyone’s views on the decision (must we really reargue it on every thread?) politicians will be travelling to Brussels to negotiate. Is our national interest served by sending them by mini cab?

And would those who object that it’s Tory ministers prefer their Labour counterparts (also committed to Brexit) went instead, when they’ve agreed in advance not to leave without a deal however ruinous the terms?

Willard Whyte

21st Nov 2017, 10:03

Sums up everything that is wrong with the Brexit mindset - the EU is not the Third Reich and Europeans are not our enemy.

If I am on a bus with 99 other people and 52 of those people vote to drive the bus off a cliff, I will not support that choice.

I didn't start this thread drift, but back on topic. If it's government business, I see no reason the RAF shouldn't be used.

Neither would I recant if 47 people voted to keep driving into a black hole.

Inanely repeating the cliff analogy doesn't make your sort right.

ACW418

21st Nov 2017, 10:16

Duchess,

Your argument about free speech is well made. B48Nav was exercising his right as well!

ACW

Onceapilot

21st Nov 2017, 10:20

For goodness sake man, the country has voted democratically to leave the wretched EU, it is about time you supported the choice!

'scuse me Brian, where does it say you have to change your opinion after a vote? :*

OAP

BEagle

21st Nov 2017, 10:55

One thing which Germany learned from the Third Reich era was that plebiscites are dangerously vulnerable to propaganda. When the likes of Goebbels promised to restore national strength, of course a lot of people believed him - but they didn't know the true picture as they only had his propaganda and the bully boy enforcement activities of the Sturmabteilung breaking up opposition meetings to persuade them to vote for their new chancellor.

So it wouldn't have been possible to have held a plebiscite, such as Cameron's referendum, in Germany - because they are now illegal. While the mood of the people can influence, the constitution allows only the elected government to makes decisions on national policy.

The propaganda, spin and lies of the likes of Johnson, Gove and Davis hoodwinked many into voting as they did, because they weren't given the true picture - as is now becoming ever more obvious.

As for Davis using RAF corgi-carriers to take him to various meetings? Only if the door-to-door time is critical should that be acceptable, provided that the government actually pays the true cost of such flights.

Bing

21st Nov 2017, 11:05

provided that the government actually pays the true cost of such flights.

Where else does the RAF's funding come from?

BEagle

21st Nov 2017, 11:12

FantomZorbin

21st Nov 2017, 11:20

Treasury reimburses the MOD budget ... Simples!

NutLoose

21st Nov 2017, 11:24

I have a cunning plan to transport him on the cheap and bring back some of the RAF's finest

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/P66-Pembroke-C-MK1-Vintage-Aircraft/122819234567?hash=item1c9898cb07:g:oqMAAOSwX3FaEvGQ

:)

langleybaston

21st Nov 2017, 16:35

Where else does the RAF's funding come from?

I thought it was me and millions like me. There is no such thing as Government money unless they print it.

melmothtw

21st Nov 2017, 17:38

Neither would I recant if 47 people voted to keep driving into a black hole.

Inanely repeating the cliff analogy doesn't make your sort right.

You'll have to forgive my 'sort', Willard. We tried using complex arguments but that didn't work, so we're now reduced to repeating inane analogies.

Nomorefreetime

21st Nov 2017, 18:12

I'm not a Pilot, Nav or NCA. Aircraft flies Pax from A-B, Pax gets to where he needs to be. Crew get ticks they need to stay current. I would prefer to fly a route than circuits at some same old airfield. The frame must have a monthly allocation to use, so why not use it for what it is intended for?

Wee Weasley Welshman

21st Nov 2017, 19:09

I would have thought military transport for the Minister and the team negotiating Brexit would be fully justified on counter intelligence grounds alone.

I quite like DD as a chap who pulled himself to high office by his own bootstraps:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)

WWW

Chinny Crewman

21st Nov 2017, 19:22

This story was lifted from Tim Shipman’s new book on Brexit. He claims it was a Civil Service v Davies spat and Davies had to go direct to the PM. No suggestion that the RAF or 32 objected in any way. Being cynical it sounds a good story whatever the facts and Shipman wants people to buy his book!

chevvron

22nd Nov 2017, 03:00

Has to be a '146 as they got rid of all the '125s didn't they? Course if they'd kept some Jetstreams he'd be welcome to use one and serve him right.
Could take a leaf out of the book of certain 'Royals' living at Bagshot and Windsor Great Park who usually use a chartered civil bizjet (up to 8 seats) when flying from Farnborough.

ShotOne

22nd Nov 2017, 06:02

Why would it "serve him right"?

RetiredBA/BY

22nd Nov 2017, 09:23

'Different budgets', I believe is the expression.

Back when VVIPs used the VC10 for overseas jaunts, the Foreign Office only repaid a fraction of the true cost - so for every such flight the MoD budget suffered a loss.

Perhaps it's different now?

Perhaps it is.

Like it or not Brexit is happening so let's give David Davis everything he needs to make things easier for him to negotiate the very best deal possible, in comparison with the "Divorce bill" the cost of RAF Air transport is fractions of peanuts.

......and since you are prattling on about the German concept of plebiscite prohibition, take a look at the Swiss system, which is such an integral part of the hugely successful, peaceful, and prosperous country.

Wander00

22nd Nov 2017, 09:30

IMHO Davis is waste of oxygen, appears to have no idea of the concept of negotiation and could not negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag - only saying......

teeteringhead

22nd Nov 2017, 10:17

A 52/48 split based on lies misdirection and bull**** is not what I'd call democratic Whereas the Remain campaign was a model of truth and good humour.

I can't be @rsed to find some of Gideon Osborne's (yes - that's his real name) more dire predictions.... err ......none of which seem to have happened.

roving

22nd Nov 2017, 10:23

Whereas the Remain campaign was a model of truth and good humour.

I can't be @rsed to find some of Gideon Osborne's (yes - that's his real name) more dire predictions.... err ......none of which seem to have happened.

Other than that since the referendum the UK growth has gone from top to bottom of the G7 list and the PSBR has risen exponentially whilst the £ has fallen by more than one-fifth -- leading to high inflation on imported food, to say nothing of the Government having lost its majority in the HoC and faces the real prospect of losing the next election to the most left wing Government in the history of Parliament.

pax britanica

22nd Nov 2017, 10:40

Well I am no fan of Davis either in terms of politics or competence although he does, rather belatedly seemed to have learned that all this 'European Nonsense' isnt nonsense and isnt straightforward.

However he is the minister responsible for something very important and an RAF jet seems fine to me in these circumstances.. Of course if Boris or Gove are involved I suggest the Airlander as singularly appropriate.

As for all this idiocy about Lancasters and Germany that sort of attiude got us into this Brexit mess, it was over 70 years ago who is the better off nation nowadays

Parson

22nd Nov 2017, 10:45

I doesn't matter whether you like/dislike Davis or what your views are on Brexit. He is a senior government minister and should use the appropriate transport which I thought would be, in this case, 32.

melmothtw

22nd Nov 2017, 11:22

I can't be @rsed to find some of Gideon Osborne's (yes - that's his real name) more dire predictions.... err ......none of which seem to have happened.

They haven't happened yet, because we haven't left yet.

......and since you are prattling on about the German concept of plebiscite prohibition, take a look at the Swiss system, which is such an integral part of the hugely successful, peaceful, and prosperous country.

Ah, the Swiss system https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-vote-gripen/swiss-voters-narrowly-block-deal-to-buy-saab-fighter-jets-projection-idUSBREA4H05920140518

Perhaps this could be our post-Brexit model of government? I'm sure the great British public will appreciate the importance of airborne maritime patrol and all the rest of it.

(Managed to get it back to military aviation there, just).

RetiredBA/BY

22nd Nov 2017, 11:58

They haven't happened yet, because we haven't left yet.

Ah, the Swiss system https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-vote-gripen/swiss-voters-narrowly-block-deal-to-buy-saab-fighter-jets-projection-idUSBREA4H05920140518

Perhaps this could be our post-Brexit model of government? I'm sure the great British public will appreciate the importance of airborne maritime patrol and all the rest of it.

(Managed to get it back to military aviation there, just).

Perhaps the British could be persuaded to have a decent maritime patrol capability, and a more capable military, if an intelligent government could tell the facts in a decent programme of education.

The French government persuaded the French people to accept nuclear electricity generation and now over 85 % of the electricity is so generated and independent of overseas oil. It was achieved and now it's just accepted as an excellent source of their power.

Alber Ratman

22nd Nov 2017, 12:50

The French and German governments invest... Simples.

Brian 48nav

22nd Nov 2017, 15:41

See what you started? Hardly a week goes by without you ranting about Brexit and hurling insults at Cameron for 'granting' a referendum ( for which 544 MPs voted yes to hold a Yes/NO vote ), the leaders of the Leave Camp and all those of us who voted to leave.

I wasn't going to continue replying to your garbage but if you think people like me were hoodwinked by Davies, Gove and Johnson then you really need your head examined! I and many of my friends have been anti-EU ( not Europe, Germany or Europeans! ) since Gove and Johnson were in short trousers.

BEagle

22nd Nov 2017, 16:28

Noted...:rolleyes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MPN11

22nd Nov 2017, 19:44

I have been anti-EU for decades, and voted Remain. There, I've said it.

However we need up where we are is somewhat irrelevant, as it is now a Fact.

The use of No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron by Cabinet Ministers [in addition to Royalty] is what it exists for.

Can we have a Referendum on whether this quasi-political Thread should die? :mad:

chevvron

22nd Nov 2017, 19:53

Why would it "serve him right"?

Have you ever flown in the RAF Jetstream Mk1 with Astazou engines?
Sure before they were withdrawn the FAA Mk 2 s were used for VIPs but they had Garretts.

langleybaston

22nd Nov 2017, 20:32

We are where we are.

Blame, recriminations, insults, threats, are not going to help any of us [us = all the inhabitants and temporary inhabitants of the UK] find a way forward to a post-Brexit era that is as good as [or least bad as] it can be.

Meantime I believe the BBC is shockingly biased and seemingly inent on dragging us all down with the ship. And if we go down, apart from the dubious satisfaction of saying "we told you so" where is the mileage in that posture?

blimey

22nd Nov 2017, 21:32

What I find dispiriting is people taking the side of an EU who now wishes our country economic harm.

There are no excuses for holding that position.

Alber Ratman

22nd Nov 2017, 23:28

The economic harm will happen regardless of what we think. Any of you lot had to deal with crap of customs movement of stuff recently? I have and what a pain in the butt, arguing whom is going to pay a bill.

melmothtw

23rd Nov 2017, 06:17

What I find dispiriting is people taking the side of an EU who now wishes our country economic harm.

There are no excuses for holding that position.

They DON'T wish our country economic harm, they want the best economic deal for them (this is a completely logical position to hold, and is the same position that the UK holds - how are people surprised at this?!).

The fact that Brexit will cause the UK economic harm is not the EU's fault, it is ours alone.

Meantime I believe the BBC is shockingly biased and seemingly inent on dragging us all down with the ship. And if we go down, apart from the dubious satisfaction of saying "we told you so" where is the mileage in that posture?

The BBC's job is to tell us the facts, not to tell us what we want to hear. There is no upside to Brexit, which is why they are not reporting one.

Harrier, VC10, Lightning - there, some military aviation to keep everyone happy (ish).

Bob Viking

23rd Nov 2017, 06:50

What I love (!) about threads like this is that everybody believes wholeheartedly that they are right. They also believe it is their duty to try to change the mind of anyone who disagrees with them.

The government asked us a question and we (who voted) gave our answers. Job done.

The fact is nobody knows what happens next. It might be the best decision we ever made. It might be the end of Britain as we know it.

Whining changes nothing. It just gets very boring.

Can we change the record now?

BV

melmothtw

23rd Nov 2017, 06:56

You're quite right Bob (speaking as someone who is as guilty as anyone). As I've said on a previous thread a long time ago, the internet is good for two things - arguing with strangers, and looking at pictures of cats.

I like cats.

Bob Viking

23rd Nov 2017, 07:52

Sadly I don’t like cats. Although if they’re going by their other name there’s plenty of pictures of that on the internet as well.

As for DD using an RAF jet (back on topic), isn’t that what they’re there for? It’s a pretty slow news day if that is even a story.

BV

Heathrow Harry

23rd Nov 2017, 08:41

I may be a Remainer but what I see here is a ridiculous attempt by someone to get some dirt splashed onto DD

It could be the Remain campaign or (just as likely) some of his close colleagues around the cabinet table.

As Bob V and other have said tht's what the planes' are there for

Chinny Crewman

23rd Nov 2017, 08:49

RetiredBA/BY

23rd Nov 2017, 08:57

Presumably because if anyone else on board recognised the wretched Davis, who has all the reasoned bargaining power of a slimy secondhand car dealer, they'd have a few words to say to him?

Davis, Johnson and Gove - what a trio Mother MayDay has in her (temporary) government...

Barnier must have the patience of a saint to deal with DD!

Pretty crass statement since we don't yet know just what has and has not been agreed with Barnier and Tusk and co.

Unless, of course, you have inside information, paricularly in your personal contact with Davis and his negotiating team. If so let's hear of your experiences with them, ( and your experience with slimy second hand car dealers! )

Meanwhile, let's just give Davis every support, he has one hell of a job, we can judge him when whatever deal is finalised. Like it or not he has been tasked with probably the most difficult negotiation since WW 2.

melmothtw

23rd Nov 2017, 09:12

Pretty crass statement since we don't yet know just what has and has not been agreed with Barnier and Tusk and co.

Unless, of course, you have inside information, paricularly in your personal contact with Davis and his negotiating team. If so let's hear of your experiences with them, ( and your experience with slimy second hand car dealers! )

Meanwhile, let's just give Davis every support, he has one hell of a job, we can judge him when whatever deal is finalised. Like it or not he has been tasked with probably the most difficult negotiation since WW 2.

Never heard WW 2 described as a negotiation before.

**hat, coat**

Heathrow Harry

23rd Nov 2017, 09:27

"things have not necessarily turned out to our advantage" - the Emperor of Japan 1945

Just This Once...

23rd Nov 2017, 10:13

It does look like a made-up story. His staff will submit bids to the comms fleet tasking and if a task line is available that would meet his timescales then he would get an aircraft and a cup of tea. If the bid was unsuccessful then he would have to travel civair.

My guess someone has changed the word 'bid' for 'demand' to make it look bad. The government pays for the service so it is quite right that it can make bids in accordance with the extant policy.

RetiredBA/BY

23rd Nov 2017, 11:38

Never heard WW 2 described as a negotiation before.

**hat, coat**

Hat, coat and P45. I was using the WW2 point as a TIME MARKER.

RetiredBA/BY

23rd Nov 2017, 11:40

sorry, double click.

Cat Funt

23rd Nov 2017, 16:40

IMHO Davis is waste of oxygen, appears to have no idea of the concept of negotiation and could not negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag - only saying......

To quote Frankie Boyle- the kind of man who would pay full price for a DFS sofa.

Wander00

23rd Nov 2017, 18:15

Cat F - you have it in one. you don't start negotiations, when you have little clout, by shouting at the other side

ShotOne

23rd Nov 2017, 20:22

By contrast to the litany of threats and insults from the EU, so far DD has been a model of politeness. And that’s despite a barrage of catcalls and kazoo honking from individuals in UK desperate for negotiations to fail .

If you prefer, Corbyn has stated up front he (that’s WE!) will pay any price to avoid no-deal. Would you buy a used bicycle on those terms?

Heathrow Harry

23rd Nov 2017, 20:37

What threats? what insults??

it's that clown Boris who goes round making threats..

we have a ZERO negotiating position - we're faced with no rise in incomes to beyond 2025 and companies are leaving the UK as fast as they can and these idiots think we can bluster our way through.........................

this makes opening the gates of Troy to a large horse look like a sane decision

Mil-26Man

23rd Nov 2017, 20:41

OmegaV6

23rd Nov 2017, 21:09

ShotOne, you're just repeating yourself now (#26).

You're missing the point - it's not about whether remainers would prefer DD or Corbyn. We would prefer not to be in this race to the bottom in the first place.

And as HH asks, what threats??

UK: I want to leave your club.
EU: We would prefer that you didn't, but if you insist you must settle your account and you will lose your access to the club facilities.
UK: STOP THREATENING ME!

Correction for you ..

UK: I want to leave your club.
EU: We would prefer that you didn't, but if you insist you must pay us a kings ransom or we won't even speak to you afterwards, and you will lose your access to the club facilities but we will still insist you live by all our rules, and we will tell you what you can and can't do with those horrible other people who are not in our club. We will not negotiate with you we will simply tell you what we want and you WILL do it.
UK: Sorry old boy, not interested. Negotiate or be damned .. :)

ShotOne

23rd Nov 2017, 21:17

As it happens, Mi26 I’d have preferred not to be in the race either. But we were both outvoted...by more people than have voted for anything in our nations history.

..and how can you accuse me of repeating myself then trot out the well-worn club tale. I’ve left several clubs over the years and never ever been presented with a bill. How much did the French pay when they left NATO?

Chris Scott

23rd Nov 2017, 22:13

Quotes from melmothtw:
"Sums up everything that is wrong with the Brexit mindset - the EU is not the Third Reich..."
The Fourth, perhaps?
"...and Europeans are not our enemy."
Quite, that would be the EU and its apparatchiks.

Quote from BEagle:
"One thing which Germany learned from the Third Reich era was that plebiscites are dangerously vulnerable to propaganda... [...] So it wouldn't have been possible to have held a plebiscite, such as Cameron's referendum, in Germany - because they are now illegal. While the mood of the people can influence, the constitution allows only the elected government to makes decisions on national policy."
The trouble with MPs is that they live in a parliamentary bubble and are "dangerously vulnerable", as you put it, to group-think.

To suggest that weary HMG ministers travelling on vital business of state should not be allowed to use military transport aircraft, where available, is outrageous. Reading the anti-British sentiments from several of the ex-RAF personnel on this thread begs the question of where their loyalties lay during their years in the service.

"I'll get my coat..." :mad: :ugh:

Avionker

23rd Nov 2017, 22:39

Reading the anti-British sentiments from several of the ex-RAF personnel on this thread begs the question of where their loyalties lay during their years in the service.

"I'll get my coat..." :mad: :ugh:

What anti-British sentiment?

I do not believe that anyone, be they Brexiter or Remainer, ex-armed forces or civilian, voted the way they did to be anti-British, quite the reverse actually.

Obviously people have different opinions on what is better for Britain, but that in no way, shape or form can be described as anti-British.

What a ridiculous and insulting statement to make.

Chris Scott

23rd Nov 2017, 23:28

Quote from Avionker:
"Obviously people have different opinions on what is better for Britain, but that in no way, shape or form can be described as anti-British."

Opinions are one thing. Characterising the referendum result and this government's stated intention to implement it as some kind of madness, and talking down the country's prospects - in line with most of our mainstream media - are unnecessary and unpatriotic. By all means criticise the government's Brexit strategy, and its negotiation skills. But talking up the EU's position in general and Barnier's performance in particular, while suggesting Britain's position is unreasonable and untenable - not to mention gratuitous, personal insults at our chief negotiator - are something else.

Alber Ratman

24th Nov 2017, 00:12

blimey

24th Nov 2017, 18:15

melmothtw

'They DON'T wish our country economic harm, they want the best economic deal for them'

So no politics in the negotiations then. No onward march towards a federal superstate. It's all purely about economics.

Let's ask the German car industry rather than the EU commissioners if they agree.

melmothtw

24th Nov 2017, 19:24

You called for me by name, blimey, so only proper I respond. I won't address your points though, as I think from previous postings the general consensus is that this thread now dies a death.

Melmothtw, out (on this topic, at least).

PPRuNeUser0139

25th Nov 2017, 07:19

You were on form here Chris!:D
"...and Europeans are not our enemy."
Quite, that would be the EU and its apparatchiks.

Exactly..:D
To suggest that weary HMG ministers travelling on vital business of state should not be allowed to use military transport aircraft, where available, is outrageous. Reading the anti-British sentiments from several of the ex-RAF personnel on this thread begs the question of where their loyalties lay during their years in the service.

Another sent over the pavilion for six!:ok:
Quote from Avionker:
"Obviously people have different opinions on what is better for Britain, but that in no way, shape or form can be described as anti-British."

Opinions are one thing. Characterising the referendum result and this government's stated intention to implement it as some kind of madness, and talking down the country's prospects - in line with most of our mainstream media - are unnecessary and unpatriotic. By all means criticise the government's Brexit strategy, and its negotiation skills. But talking up the EU's position in general and Barnier's performance in particular, while suggesting Britain's position is unreasonable and untenable - not to mention gratuitous, personal insults at our chief negotiator - are something else.
Agree 100%...
Think the great PPRuNe god of BEagle is past his sell-by date. And has been for some time.
I thought this comment (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/602174-david-davis-demanded-raf-plane-brexit-talks.html#post9963678) of his was a cheap shot.. and based on what factual evidence?
There have been precious few facts to emerge from the negotiations.
I think both sides are taking the negotiations to the wire.. Hope we're not the first to blink..
Geoff

Mil-26Man

25th Nov 2017, 09:14

You were on form here Chris!:D

Exactly..:D

Another sent over the pavilion for six!:ok:

Agree 100%...
Think the great PPRuNe god of BEagle is past his sell-by date. And has been for some time.
I thought this comment (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/602174-david-davis-demanded-raf-plane-brexit-talks.html#post9963678) of his was a cheap shot.. and based on what factual evidence?
There have been precious few facts to emerge from the negotiations.
I think both sides are taking the negotiations to the wire.. Hope we're not the first to blink..
Geoff

He's a sabatour and an enemy of the people, I tells ya!

BEagle

25th Nov 2017, 10:08

I once had a car powered by all of 36bhp from its sidevalve engine, if powered be the word. Like many of the little Englanders intent on seeing our country dragged back to their misty-eyed world of the '50s, it too was a relic of a bygone age.

BBC politics makes interesting reading today; so whether he uses one of the RAF's corgi-carriers, the Eurostar or civil airlines, Davis is probably going to need to do a lot of travelling between now and Dec 14th...

Having been away for 3 days in Germany last week, I asked myself whether the ease with which my arrival at Munich and onward connection, as well as my return trip to Birmingham, will be the same in 2019 - unless, of course, the UK abandons its lemming like rush to the cliff....:rolleyes:

NutLoose

25th Nov 2017, 10:36

At least lemmings do not need an unelected body in a foreign land determining their right, place, time and day of the year that they can throw themselves off the said cliff.

..

Mil-26Man

25th Nov 2017, 10:56

At least lemmings do not need an unelected body in a foreign land determining their right, place, time and day of the year that they can throw themselves off the said cliff.

..

Neither do we, Nutloose. We've managed to do those things all by ourselves.

Chris Scott

25th Nov 2017, 14:58

sidevalve: "You were on form here Chris!"
Thanks Geoff, had assumed I'd be playing this one solo... :cool:

Quotes from BEagle:

"I once had a car powered by all of 36bhp from its sidevalve engine, if powered be the word. Like many of the little Englanders intent on seeing our country dragged back to their misty-eyed world of the '50s, it too was a relic of a bygone age."
Reckon that can be described as another cheap shot, lacking factual evidence: playing the man, not the argument? If so, versus a tricky target, as it happens: an English Europhile living in France and married to a Frenchwoman, yet opposing an EU project progressively emasculating Europe's nation states for the self-glorification and financial security of its functionaries.

"BBC politics makes interesting reading today..."
Ah yes, the Brussels broadcasting service. And, admittedly, it can be tediously time-consuming to find commentators in our mainstream media that defy the convention of painting Blighty as a foolhardy supplicant up before the beak.

"I asked myself whether the ease with which [sic] my arrival at Munich and onward connection, as well as my return trip to Birmingham, will be the same in 2019..."
So the reassertion of our independence should be abandoned simply to ensure no temporary inconvenience to BEagle's commute? :rolleyes:

"... unless, of course, the UK abandons its lemming like rush to the cliff.."
Now where have we seen that kind of threat before?
It's the sovereignty, stupid... :ugh:

Mil-26Man

25th Nov 2017, 15:32

And, admittedly, it can be tediously time-consuming to find commentators in our mainstream media that defy the convention of painting Blighty as a foolhardy supplicant up before the beak.

Have you not read the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Sun, or the Daily Express lately? These are all main-stream media.

Alber Ratman

25th Nov 2017, 16:48

Have you not read the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Sun, or the Daily Express lately? These are all main-stream media.

There is always the Spectator.. And Toby Young (who is so far up his own..)

BEagle, I walked into a Colt reunion 2 days after the Referendum, First Guy I bumped into say "Alber, great to see you, a Sane man in this place."

I think in the most part you will find the same attitude here as I found that day. :E

Give David Davids an RAF aircraft to do his business.. Before some mad Dutchman buries it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/erwinalexander/37061573183/in/album-72157661372851070/

roving

25th Nov 2017, 19:14

Chris Scott

25th Nov 2017, 19:38

Quote from Mil-26Man:
"Have you not read the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Sun, or the Daily Express lately? These are all main-stream media."

Yes, their leader-writers are pro-Brexit in one form or another, as are most - but certainly not all - of the articles they publish. That leaves The Times, Financial Times, The Guardian, Daily Mirror and Mail on Sunday, all of which are anti, and quietly backing a second referendum. (Some of us have voted twice already, and learned from our mistake first time around.)

But the point I was making is that the vast majority of writers and speakers in/on the various types of MSM, including those claiming to be pro-Brexit, cast the UK in the role of the supplicant when reporting developments.

For example, and here I beg the forbearance of the Moderators: our negotiators, one infers, merely have aspirations; the EU can and will set and enforce the ground rules, cajole and threaten. In practice the EU makes no concessions; we propose concessions which are pocketed and promptly deemed inadequate. Nearly all UK commentators in the MSM accept this tilted playing field. They contemplate yet further concessions, instead of standing our ground on the basis that a deal is preferable but not essential.

The PM - an instinctive Remainer and facing a majority of similarly-minded, Tory MPs - continues dancing to the EU's tune. David Davis, a former Leave campaigner, is more inscrutable. The cabinet's bumbling, but most eloquent Brexiteer, who happens also to represent the UK in foreign affairs, is banned from rallying people to the cause. Labour MPs, and especially their leader, prioritise power over conviction and country, so the fragile PM shrinks from forcing them or her Remainers to put up or shut up.

The reason we must contemplate walking away is that, although a deal acceptable to us need not be detrimental to individual EU countries, its very completion may unravel the sacred, but failing, EU project. Independence can be catching.

Mil-26Man

25th Nov 2017, 20:14

That leaves The Times, Financial Times, The Guardian, Daily Mirror and Mail on Sunday, all of which are anti...

The Times campaigned FOR Brexit.

failing, EU project.

Putin and Trump will be pleased.

Independence can be catching.

The UK and all the other EU member states already are independent. https://www.chathamhouse.org/publication/britain-eu-and-sovereignty-myth

engineer(retard)

25th Nov 2017, 20:17

Northern Ireland is the fly in the ointment.

Ireland will block any trade deal between the EU and the UK unless open borders remain between it and Northern Ireland. The DUP, whose Parliamentary support underpins the Government's majority, refuses to agree to any form of border between it and the rest of the UK.

Up until Eire cannot Trade efficiently with the UK, nor route it’s exports unhindered through the UK and finds that it’s EU subsidies are slashed. It’s really not in a comfortable place and the recent moves towards common corporation tax rate is an even bigger threat than Brexit.

Bing

25th Nov 2017, 21:14

The Times campaigned FOR Brexit.

Did it?

EU Referendum Newspaper Positions Means Rupert Murdoch Can 'Call Victory' Whether Leave Or Remain Wins (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-mail-on-sunday-sunday-telegraph_uk_576799b6e4b0a4f99adc153a)

Chugalug2

25th Nov 2017, 22:45

Mil-26Man

26th Nov 2017, 04:31

What a nasty intolerant thread this has become. Time was when the British believed in respecting one another's point of view. Now we have learned to insult each other, to undermine our Government's negotiators and instead heap praise on those that they are negotiating with, treating everything they say as carved in stone.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy...

You take the moral high ground by first saying how nasty we all are for not respecting each other's opinions. You then go on to call remainers treasonous for not backing the government, and close with a flourish by calling us mad. Nicely done.

roving

26th Nov 2017, 04:56

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
'Relax' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check out any time you like,
But you can never leave!'.

lHje9w7Ev4U

Chugalug2

26th Nov 2017, 07:52

Mil-26Man:-
You take the moral high ground by first saying how nasty we all are for not respecting each other's opinions. You then go on to call remainers treasonous for not backing the government, and close with a flourish by calling us mad. Nicely done.

Well thank you, that's much more like it. If we can keep it all nice and polite like that things can only get better. I must protest though at your accusation that I call remainers treasonous. I call some of them here intolerant. Maybe that isn't seen as much as a criticism these days, but that is rather my point. I'm old you see.

SWBKCB

26th Nov 2017, 08:29

Anybody know the way to JetBlast?

Thought not.... :(

ShotOne

26th Nov 2017, 09:19

“The DUP refuses to agree to a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of UK...” Not just DUP I hope!! Are we not all outraged at this prospect, raised as it was, by the Irish government as an opportunistic step towards their long-held goal of a United Ireland.

MAD Boom

26th Nov 2017, 09:28

Will you lot just go and find a pub and hash out this appalling debate in the good old-fashioned way? Drink some beer (not any of that lager pish or 'craft' beers) and blah away. You'll still end up at the same conclusion but at least you'll have supported the declining British brewing industry.

On topic, I'll fly DD anywhere if he wants because:
a) it's good training and shows the world we still have some sort of Air Force
b) it beats landing at the same few options we have left to train with in the UK
c) a bit of duty free always goes down well before Christmas.......

Basil

26th Nov 2017, 10:30

You then go on to call remainers treasonous for not backing the government
I don't think he did but I would.
Mrs Bas voted 'Remain'. We could have paired but didn't trust each other :E
She now accepts the vote and supports the UK side in our negotiations.

What is wrong with the Remoaners who seem determined to talk down our position? Is it so that we will fail and they can say "Told you so!"?

The EU negotiators follow UK media comment which gives comfort to their cause so, 'treasonous'? Yes, I'd agree.

Basil

26th Nov 2017, 10:35

Oh, yes, and while I'm on a roll ;)
I sent the following to our MP:

Like the majority, I voted in favour of Brexit and our Conservative Government chose to implement the result of that referendum.
The reports which appear in the news media now appear to present a picture of confusion and disloyalty.
For instance, those who voted against setting a date for exit on the premise that it would somehow circumscribe the negotiating position of HMG seem to me to have missed the fact that setting such a date places pressure upon the EU negotiators but, if wished in the future, Parliament has the authority to alter it as required.

In general, I think most voters like to see a cabinet decision made and MPs then giving it their support.

I recollect loyalty being a pre-requisite for young Royal Air Force officers when I served and it is disappointing to read of the difficulties of government and negotiation made more arduous by what appears to me to be quibbling over relatively minor clauses.

Mil-26Man

26th Nov 2017, 11:03

***yawn***Perhaps the most pompous post I will read today, but probably not.

And yes, we all know about your wife and her Road to Damascus conversion, Basil. You have told us about it several times already.

Cornish Jack

26th Nov 2017, 11:53

Well, Chaps and chapesses, that has made for a mind-numbing 10 minutes or so of expletive-ridden (under my breath) reading. First thought is ... pettiness, in all its forms; second thought ... dear old Doctor Sam was sooooo right in his observation "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
While in no way a universal attribute, commonsense appears to have abdicated in favour of Yah-Boo 'debate'. Time was that "an Englishman's word was as good as a bond". Now it seems that it is good for as long as we can profit over others and if we can sneer, denigrate or otherwise disrespect our contemporaries we should do so for political advantage. Normally find Beagle's views irritating , to say the least, but the car dealer analogy has a certain element of relevance ... now I'm at it!:uhoh: Time to retreat to rural peace and let the political children make yet another mess in their playpen:mad: