Carlisle-2

[highwideandugly]

Can't find the old thread..but does anyone know what is going on here?

Promise of airport,runway,terminal and schedule flight expansion by Stobarts..but can't find any concrete(pun..sorry) news?

Flights supposed to start now,soon,or when?

[rowly6339]

Nothing is happening, they wanted the airport just to build the warehouse that is now up and running.

[buzz_hornet]

didnt they have a keen interest in starting routes. for example belfast was listed as a potential through the route development scheme

[highwideandugly]

So is there any pressure from the local authorities against Stobarts? Thought the Westmorland press would have picked this up!!!
Most sensible people thought a thriving airport would never happen,but I seem to remember most were shot down by the blinkered!
What ever happened to the local farmers who saw through the smoke screen?

[nighthawk117]

It's thanks to these local farmers that we don't have a new runway. The original planning consent stated that Stobart must improve the runway first before work could start on their warehouse.

Now thanks to their constant winging, Stobart have been able to construct their warehouse without spending a penny on the airport. At least under the original scheme we would have gained some improved infrastructure that would actually be capable of handling flights if anyone ever decided they wanted to give it a shot.

[rowly6339]

TBF why would anyone give it a shot, what routes could possibly be worth running from CAX?

[mwm991]

Absolutely no need for Carlisle on a commercial basis.

[nighthawk117]

FlyBE to Heathrow?

FlyBE are backing a 3rd runway at heathrow, and in support yesterday published the following proposed route map that they could operate if the runway was approved:

https://i1.wp.com/www.thecourier.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2016/10/flyberoutes.jpg?resize=620%2C372&ssl=1

[davidjohnson6]

If Flybe are going to enter fantasy land, surely they could propose nonstop flights between Heathrow and bothe Orkney and Shetland as well

[01475]

Most of them. .. maybe; probably. But Doncaster and Norwich???

[highwideandugly]

Hi guys..must be time for an update?

I had on very...good authority that the airport would close for a few months for runway/airfield improvements? What happened?? Have they started?
Schedules..can't start until those improvements begin?
City Jet at Southend...any hope for EGNC??

What do the locals(farmers). Actually think will happen...or have Stobarts done the dirty (probably expected) and 'will eventually have their day?

[Fairdealfrank]

If Flybe are going to enter fantasy land, surely they could propose nonstop flights between Heathrow and bothe Orkney and Shetland as well Most of them. .. maybe; probably. But Doncaster and Norwich??? Not as silly as it sounds to some. BE are building up a network at LCY with some destinations that many would not have predicted, and have applied to use Northolt to do similar on a smaller scale, but that was rejected.

There is also the liklihood that with increased expense, congestion, overcrowding and hassle of surface transport, domestic air travel will be increasing attractive and convenient, especially for those not going city centre to city centre and/or those connecting to/from overseas destinations.

With a third rwy at Heathrow, slots are allocated 50% to new carriers and 50% to incumbents. The secondary slot market that keeps carriers out of Heathrow diappears. Beyond that, much would depend on Heathrow airport charges and whether some routes could be operated on a PSO basis or supported by the Regional Airport Connectivity Fund (there'll also be no EU interference by then).

Also, BE has exactly the right sized aircraft to operate these thinner domestic routes. The BE map shows none of trunk routes operated by BA (and previously also operated by BD). Maybe it is leaving those routes to U2 with its larger aircraft, as U2 also supports Heathrow expansion and has stated that it would have a base there. Could see stiff competition for BE from BA and/or U2 on the Jersey route, but not on the others.

As for Norwich, perhaps not so daft as it may sound at first glance, surface connections between there and Heathrow are difficult. Surprised not see Newquay on the list considering the word "potential" was used on the map.

As the word "potential"is used on the map, maybe all those routes won't materialise. Some of the airports may have closed, if not, a Heathrow link would be a vital lifeline.

Nevertheless, like the look of it, hope to live long enough........

[rowly6339]

Logistics Manager (http://www.logisticsmanager.com/stobart-launches-carlisle-logistics-park/)


Who said they only wanted the airport to build a big warehouse?:)

[SWBKCB]

So they want to build a big warehouse and some smaller warehouses? :ok:

[highwideandugly]

Oh dear..as we have all suspected..the future is a massive logistics/transport area..the people of Carlisle and the area have been lead up the garden path..DTV I fear will follow suit?

Amazed the local press garnet picked up on this?

[Harry Wayfarers]

As for Norwich, perhaps not so daft as it may sound at first glance, surface connections between there and Heathrow are difficult.

In the old days Air Anglia operated a PA31 on the NWI/LHR route before Air UK operated a Shed360 HUY/NWI/LHR, i.e, a split load on a Shed.

NWI/AMS has survived all these years because of the, then, poor roads and then no LHR service but since then Norwich has a by-pass, the A11 has been significantly improved, to west London isn't so difficult, many a year since I drove it and I don't have a map to hand but it was down the A11/M11 turning right at Duxford, it might have been the A505 that takes one across country to then connect with the A1(M) or continue going across country to connect with M1 somewhere around Luton, it was quite a pleasant drive as drives go.

[NorthSouth]

I think you must have been away a long time! Halfway round the M25 isn't in my "pleasant" book.
I'm sure the reason NWI-AMS has survived all these years is 90% to do with the Southern North Sea gas industry, not the difficulty of road connections to Heathrow.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I think you must have been away a long time! Halfway round the M25 isn't in my "pleasant" book.

M1 to M4 is not much more than a stone's throw!

I'm sure the reason NWI-AMS has survived all these years is 90% to do with the Southern North Sea gas industry, not the difficulty of road connections to Heathrow.

You worked for Air UK and/or KLM UK did you?

[canberra97]

You obviously dong drive around the M25 very often I can assure you it's NOT a comfortable drive, EVERY day and I mean EVERY day there is major congestion between the M25/M4 junction upto the M25/M1 junction regardless of the day but obviously even more so during peak times.

The M1 to M4 is a stones throw you say well I would like to see you throw a stone between those two junctions it's not that close especially when your travelling about 20 to 30 miles an hour in congested traffic.

A pathetic statement on your behalf and I suggest you drive that route again which you found so comfortable as it must have been a long time since you last did.

[KelvinD]

Well I have driven that route a number of times over the last month and have to say that, while it is not the best drive in the world it is not the horror show it used to be. Certainly, there are patches of 40 and 50mph, as mandated by the overhead gantries. Once the M40 junction is passed it gets better. My journey is around 70 miles and is generally done in 80 to 90 minutes,
The worst thing about that trip is not the patches of slow going but the muppets who think they can drive but in reality couldn't drive a donkey cart!

[SWBKCB]

I thought the motorway that went past Carlisle was the M6? :ok:

[DaveReidUK]

The thread was hijacked a couple of months ago and now it appears to be about how you get between any pair of UK airports by motorway. :O

[rowly6339]

Does anybody really see flights from CAX starting in the next 5 years? I don't.

[NickBarnes]

I think you must have been away a long time! Halfway round the M25 isn't in my "pleasant" book.
I'm sure the reason NWI-AMS has survived all these years is 90% to do with the Southern North Sea gas industry, not the difficulty of road connections to Heathrow.

Also university students from Asia that go to the UEA, it carries 130,000 pax plus a year and continues to grow.

[TopBunk]

Also university students from Asia that go to the UEA

UEA has what, 4500 students? Say 10% of them are from Asia and they all fly via AMS to NWI. That's 450 people flying in and out of NWI 6 times a year or 2700 passengers a year. And that's assuming they all fly in and out each term which is highly unlikely.

OK, a contribution to a route and it all helps, but not a real game changer, imho.

(UEA student 1975-1978)

[Red Four]

As does Carlisle (the thread starter can't have searched too hard...)
http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/229114-carlisle-12.html
Might one suggest the Mods combine both threads please:ok:

[NorthSouth]

Carlisle has just been referred to over on the DTVA thread as an example of an airport embarking on expansion, with references to Stobart's Southend example too.

Just thought I'd throw out there if anyone can think of an example of a successful commercial airport with a military danger area at 7nm final for the main runway direction, with fast jets doing high energy manoeuvring both inside and outside the danger area? Add to that the fact that there are no plans for Carlisle to get radar.

We've recently had the example of Flybe pulling out of Dundee because of the perceived hazards of operating CAT from a non-radar Class G airport with lots of light aircraft around. But at least the conflicts there were all with aircraft doing no more than 100 knots. At Carlisle most of them are doing 400+.

[highwideandugly]

I head Newcastle we're going to do the radar?

Anyway..don't think the military have any fast jets now! More problems than that for the airport successfully delivering on Stobarts promises?

[Planespeaking]

Can anyone tell me size of it's catchment area, and how many millions of prospective pax it encapsulates?

[GrahamK]

About 5,000,000 sheep and 100,000 leople in the local Carlisle area

[Jerry123]

And the tourist attraction of the Lake district.

[01475]

Not all of which is massively hugely closer to Carlisle than Manchester is...

[highwideandugly]

This tourist attraction card has been mentioned before.Majority are day trips on coaches from local area or tourists passing through to Scotland.Next highest are walkers..so how much can you get in those overhead ATR lockers..walking sticks,boots,dogs,you get my drift.Arrive at airport and you are still 30 plus miles from the start of the real lakes..car hire anyone...not yet in place.Bus service..not yet in place...train...nope.
The answer is to attract new inbound tourism..over to the tourist board.Business passengers just does not exist..history has proven that.

[NorthernChappie]

5,000,000 sheep eh?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUINoVAL-_A

[NorthSouth]

I head Newcastle we're going to do the radar?No chance. No reliable cover over Carlisle below 3000ft from that radar and Stobarts wouldn't pay for the controllers.
Anyway..don't think the military have any fast jets now!!!!It only takes one
More problems than that for the airport successfully delivering on Stobarts promises??Indeed. But no-one's mentioning this one.

[LTNman]

Running an airfield that has no passengers will always be substantially cheaper to run than an airfield used by just a few dozen passengers a day. So what would be the income generated by those passengers?

Factor in fire cover and the extra staff needed to operate a passenger operation and the bills start to rise.

With just a few passengers it will be tough to turn a profit when those same passengers are offered the flexibility of an hourly train service to the heart of London just a few miles away.

Factor check-in times and onward travel to London and the plane is not quite as appealing but if Stobart wants to give it a try then good luck to them. Still don't agree to a government handout to run a route to London when there is already a train service.

[highwideandugly]

Agree LTN. Re subsidies. Would it not benefit the whole area more if the A69 between Carlisle and Newcastle were to be duelled? Carlisle already has excellent road links north south...what is needed for the final piece of the jigsaw is east west? That money would be better spent on the road and probably ..rail network.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Running an airfield that has no passengers will always be substantially cheaper to run than an airfield used by just a few dozen passengers a day. So what would be the income generated by those passengers?

Factor in fire cover and the extra staff needed to operate a passenger operation and the bills start to rise.

With just a few passengers it will be tough to turn a profit when those same passengers are offered the flexibility of an hourly train service to the heart of London just a few miles away.

Factor check-in times and onward travel to London and the plane is not quite as appealing but if Stobart wants to give it a try then good luck to them. Still don't agree to a government handout to run a route to London when there is already a train service.

The train being quicker from central Carlisle to central London has been the subjecty of many previous discussions here on PPRuNe, alas we are not supposed to discuss trains, nor indeed 69 by-pass's, here and those discussions didn't meet with the approval of the enthusiasts of a particular airport in Essex ... But enough said about Clacton :)

As LTN suggests, good luck to them but I'm another that can't see it working out.

[DC3 Dave]

I could write paragraphs about why I would fly to Carlisle or Glasgow from south-east Essex, and take the train to Newcastle or Edinburgh, but I can hear groans from some and sense fury from others so I'll stop myself.

Surely it's all about the limit of Stobart's ambition with regard to passenger services. If all they're looking to achieve is 100,000 p.a. then they may get there one day.

Of course, they may strike a deal with FR to base a few 738's there, and re-name the airport, Glasgow South, Newcastle West or Manchester North.

[EGPO]

They seemed pretty certain that they are aiming to mirror Southend.
By giving free slots to easy jet.
Look at it this way the A69 is not the safest or best road.
It has for the most part remained as it always has .
Passing through one village after another.
Plus your forgetting Dumfries and Galloway. Prestwick is a pain to drive to ( I've done it ) from anywhere in Galloway .
And has little to offer.
DTV is almost dead .
You have to leave the UK to go anywhere unless you want to go to ABZ .
There is also The Yorkshire Dales, lake district and Barrow.
Carlisle having spent a fair few hpursxover there is quite busy with BIZ jets already .
They seem commited to making this work.
Yes NCL is close but as Manchester and surrounding Motorways become ever more congested HS3 a distant dream , which is NOT coming to Carlisle it fizzles out at Crewe.
We are talking the here and now.
NOT what road or rail connections may be available years down the track.
The A66 is terrible twin track to single . They've left very dangerous bends tacked onto the ends of fast road sections.
And that doesn't take you near enough to Newcastle.
There seemed be a lot of local interest and support around .
Nobody I spoke to would not use services when and if offered .
Edinburgh and Glasgow are 150odd km+ distant MAN just as far .
NCL is linked by a dirt track.
So to see a new Venture work can only be a good thing.

[Harry Wayfarers]

You have to leave the UK to go anywhere unless you want to go to ABZ

What a strange statement, is ABZ not in UK, can one not travel literally anywhere from LHR, is LHR not in UK either?

HS3 a distant dream , which is NOT coming to Carlisle it fizzles out at Crewe. We are talking the here and now.

We're not allowed to discuss trains here but just check out website traveline for, here and now, train times, we'd probably only need HS3 to compete with something supersonic!

[GLOworm]

Aah... Onyxcrowle. I've missed you.

[Planespeaking]

What a novel way of expressing a thought process.

[Robert-Ryan]

DTV is almost dead .
No it isn't, quite the opposite in fact, and if talk is to be believed Loganair is only the tip of the iceberg.

What became of the RGF route(s) from Carlisle?

[SWBKCB]

Before this "easyJet to Carlisle" malarkey spreads any further, have a look at the new terminal plans approved last month and try and imagine 150 pax in there... :eek:

17/0568 | Variation Of Condition 2 (Approved Documents) Of Previously Approved Permission 10/1116 To Enable The Construction Of A Stobart Rail And Terminal Facility Including Minor Changes To The Apron, Circulation Areas And Landscaping | Carlisle Ai (http://publicaccess.carlisle.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=_CARLI_DCAPR_70884)

[Andy_S]

Aah... Onyxcrowle. I've missed you.

I knew I'd seen that stream of consciousness before........:}

[highwideandugly]

Anyone got the dates for the Carlisle closure for the runway realignment??

See the Fire Cover has been permanently reduced is that because of the closure?

[NorthSouth]

They're not realigning the runway, they're sticking with the existing alignment and length but "raising and re-profiling" it. The realigned runway proposal dates back to 2007 but was withdrawn the following year when it got called in by central government.

[highwideandugly]

Any further news on progress at Carlisle?

[inOban]

Imminent and definitely opening next summer, according to a Stobart executive quoted in the local newspaper. The meeting was about the bonkers scheme to extend the Borders line to Carlisle.

[fjencl]

https://www.cumbriacrack.com/2017/11/10/cumbrian-economy-set-huge-boost-carlisle-airport/

[southside bobby]

Stobart Group`s regional distribution centre at Carlisle Airport has been sold for £23.61m.
Is this continuing the sale of the family silver perhaps?.

[fjencl]

Maybe they will use the money from the sale to invest in the airport.
Who knows

[N707ZS]

Who did they sell it to?

[GrahamK]

A company called Tritax Big Box apparently

[southside bobby]

There is a trend developing with the sale of assets.

[highwideandugly]

That’s interesting..will they still have the commitment to developing the airport..or will it be up to the new owners??

[fjencl]

The new owners only bought the distribution centre , not the airport.

[highwideandugly]

Amazing though when you consider the “Kerfuffle” to obtain the land against a lot of local opposition,to sell the centre off so quickly? No doubt we will hear a statement re the airport soon.

[horatio_b]

Stobart sold the distribution centre in February 2016 and is leasing it under a 20 year agreement. Value has increased by nearly £7m in past 18 months.

Disposal of Distribution Centre at Carlisle Airport for £16.925m (http://www.stobartgroup.co.uk/homepage-slideshow/disposal-of-distribution-centre-at-carlisle-airport-for-16-925m)

[SWBKCB]

Stobart sold the distribution centre in February 2016

Why let a few facts get in the way of the speculation?

[Andy_S]

Stobart sold the distribution centre in February 2016 and is leasing it under a 20 year agreement. Value has increased by nearly £7m in past 18 months.

Maybe they sold it prematurely........

[SWBKCB]

The 'catalyst' comment refers to the original sale back in 2016.

[southside bobby]

fjencl..
We are both wrong I`m afraid not helped by poor local newspaper reporting.
Reading several reports carefully together it is thus...
Your header "the sale would be a "catalyst" for inward investment at the airport is old news & was a statement by Stobart Group in 2016 when the logistics centre was sold by them originally.
The sale today is Stobart`s landlord selling the premises on & as is stated by them today this is not a Stobart Group sale.
A question remains tho where were the £16.925m proceeds from 2016 "invested",not it appears so much in CAX.

[fjencl]

Thanks very much for that clarification.......

[fjencl]

Looking at the plans for the new passenger terminal proposed, is it not the case that it is connected/incorporated to the distribution centre.

Interesting times maybe/not ahead.........for passenger flights.

Time will tell, how much time nobody knows.

Summer 2018 !!!!!!!

[SWBKCB]

is it not the case that it is connected/incorporated to the distribution centre

I thought it was alongside the distribution centre, but a separate building - not physically connected.

[nighthawk117]

My understanding was that it was to be incorporated into the top right corner of the existing freight distribution building. Unfortunately I can't find any drawings to back up that plan.


Amazing though when you consider the “Kerfuffle” to obtain the land against a lot of local opposition,to sell the centre off so quickly? No doubt we will hear a statement re the airport soon.


You're reading too much into it. It's just juggling money around on the balance sheet to free up cash for future investments - why have £16m of cash tied up in a warehouse, when you can sell it on, free up the cash and re-invest it somewhere else?

Stobarts signed a 20 year lease on the building after selling it, so they'll be around for a long time yet.

[fjencl]

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/carlisle-ambassadors-meeting-7th-december-2017-tickets-38889608867

[nighthawk117]

Looks like plans have changed again....

I just came across this proposal for "Eden Park":
Eden Park. A landmark North West business development (http://www.edenpark-carlisle.com/)

This land designated for Eden Park was originally earmarked for aircraft stands, some intended for use as part of scheduled movements, others designed for aircraft storage.

There now doesn't appear to be any sort of plan for aviation related activity at the airport. Surprise surprise :)

[fjencl]

Time will tell...........

[SWBKCB]

The diagrams showing the land available for development certainly seem to include the area where planning permission has been granted for the new terminal/Stobart Rail HQ building.

[nighthawk117]

I'm not aware of any plan for a new terminal other than inside the existing freight distribution building, or of a stobart rail HQ. Here is the original site plan, as approved:

https://i.imgur.com/Wp91RN8.png

[SWBKCB]

Here's the latest planning application from June this year:

17/0568 | Variation Of Condition 2 (Approved Documents) Of Previously Approved Permission 10/1116 To Enable The Construction Of A Stobart Rail And Terminal Facility Including Minor Changes To The Apron, Circulation Areas And Landscaping | Carlisle Airport, Irthington, Carlisle, CA6 4NW


17/0568 | Variation Of Condition 2 (Approved Documents) Of Previously Approved Permission 10/1116 To Enable The Construction Of A Stobart Rail And Terminal Facility Including Minor Changes To The Apron, Circulation Areas And Landscaping | Carlisle Ai (http://publicaccess.carlisle.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=_CARLI_DCAPR_70884)

[nighthawk117]

Thanks SWBKCB, just found them. Silly me, you know the one place I didnt look for the plans? This thread!

Here's the new proposal, a standalone terminal on the other side of the freight distribution centre. All in all, this may be a good thing for the airport. The expanded industrial estate will bring in extra revenue, which will help to keep the doors open. Hopefully the tenants will generate some cargo demand too, and bring in the occasional cargo flight.

https://i.imgur.com/xNr63BB.jpg

[SWBKCB]

But the brochure for the new Eden Park development shows the site of the terminal up for grabs, and one of the proposed layouts shows an industrial unit in the middle of the terminal apron.

There is no new terminal (more realistically Stobart HQ building) anywhere to be seen in the Eden Park bumph

[nighthawk117]

hedging their bets? If no-one wants the space, they'll build a terminal... eventually?

[fjencl]

I am sure the Eden Park had a date of December 2016, then the new revised Plans/details came into effect June 2017, we shall see what/if happens in the near future with any announcements/news forthcoming after the 7th December meeting.

[bad bear]

I feel sure the terminal will need more than the 90 car parking spaces that show on the above plan if it is to have enough passengers to make it viable, is there a long term car park somewhere? How many spaces do other small airports have ( Teeside?)

[SWBKCB]

Don't need many spaces for a couple of ATR's a day. If you look at the terminal plans, it's an office block for Stobart Rail with very basic facilities for limited pax numbers (still a step up from the current terminal...)

[DC3 Dave]

This summer I flew STN-KIR-LTN with FR. Kerry airport!! Once all the passengers had deposited their baggage, most of the visible staff joined us for a farewell drink before boarding!

Airports come in all shapes and sizes.

[EGPO]

Well Stobart like to talk up plans for the airport. I has a witness when a senior staff member was only too delighted to speak of first the runway resurfacing - involving closing it ( after the permanent biz jet goes to Southend for the duration ).
Pax flights still said to start next year . And they claimed EZY are wanting in due to the same freebie deal they gave them at Southend.
What I did find a bit ity was the idea they were ' speaking to another Irish airline '.
Given if I'm right in thinking Are Lingus still have some involvement - it's clearly not them.
But to insinuate FR . I may have posted before about this but it's no fantasy.
Said manager ( not naming ) was senior ' going by the I'd tag and seemed keen.
Maybe just maybe a limited summer only 2 route Charter for EZY eventually .
But not before Stobart can prove they can fill a tiny prop.
Finally . Rail operation ? Is this an office or a rail link too if so to where ?.
Nearest would be former stub of Waverley route south somewhere be Longtown ?.

[SWBKCB]

If you look at the plans, well over half of the Terminal building is actually office accommodation for Stobart Rail.

Again, looking at the planned terminal and apron size, there would have to be considerable changes made to accommodate anything bigger than the proposed ATR's.

Clearly plans can change, but these were only submitted in June this year.

[fjencl]

Current planning permission is

15. Passenger and/or cargo fixed wing aircraft movements shall be limited to the
following types of aircraft: Jetstream 41; DHC-8Q400; ATR 42; ATR 72; and
RJ146 (or aircraft of equivalent characteristics in terms of size, weight, carrying
capacity, noise, and other polluting emissions).

[nighthawk117]

I feel sure the terminal will need more than the 90 car parking spaces that show on the above plan if it is to have enough passengers to make it viable, is there a long term car park somewhere? How many spaces do other small airports have ( Teeside?)

It's not the number of parking spaces that's of concern, but the size of the departures lounge. Judging from the plans, you'd be lucky if there's room there for 20 people, standing only, let alone 40 for a full ATR (unless they never expect to get above 50% loads)


Well Stobart like to talk up plans for the airport. I has a witness when a senior staff member was only too delighted to speak of first the runway resurfacing - involving closing it ( after the permanent biz jet goes to Southend for the duration ).
Pax flights still said to start next year . And they claimed EZY are wanting in due to the same freebie deal they gave them at Southend.
What I did find a bit ity was the idea they were ' speaking to another Irish airline '.
Given if I'm right in thinking Are Lingus still have some involvement - it's clearly not them.
But to insinuate FR . I may have posted before about this but it's no fantasy.
Said manager ( not naming ) was senior ' going by the I'd tag and seemed keen.
Maybe just maybe a limited summer only 2 route Charter for EZY eventually .
But not before Stobart can prove they can fill a tiny prop.
Finally . Rail operation ? Is this an office or a rail link too if so to where ?.
Nearest would be former stub of Waverley route south somewhere be Longtown ?.


Easyjet don't do charters, just scheduled ops, I believe.

The original plan many moons ago was for a lengthened runway, and brand new, decent sized terminal. Back then there was talk of attracting Ryanair. Given the right price and incentives, I'm sure they might consider it, but it's highly unlikely.

Even if they wanted to, the proposed terminal is far too small to accommodate an A319/737 worth of passengers.

[bad bear]

im not sure B737 or Airbus 320s can use a runway thats 30 m wide, are there plans to widen the runway when it is re-laid in time for the summer schedule in 4 months time?

[CabinCrewe]

A little more on proposed ops. Good luck to them I say.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/61778-stobart-group-aims-to-start-carlisle-pax-flights-in-2018

[SWBKCB]

Nothing new in there that hasn't been said before.

[DC3 Dave]

Except that they're saying it again, rather than let it lie dormant.

[SWBKCB]

Yes - they're been very consistent with their message, it's only the year that changes!

[N707ZS]

At least one 737BBJ has been in on the current runway, don't know about anything bigger.

[GrahamK]

Runway renovation starts tomorrow. Closed to fixed wing aircraft until May?

[fjencl]

At last the ball is starting to roll, Well done :ok:

[GrahamK]

Runway 7/25 to become 6/24.

Helicopter operations will be accepted

[ara01jbb]

As a reminder, here are the drawings of the new combined passenger terminal and offices for Stobart Rail, from the planning documents dated January 2017: site plan (PDF) (http://publicaccess.carlisle.gov.uk/online-applications/files/58F8A75CDA63AC73DA14B2BDB34E3E19/pdf/17_0568-02_18035C_-_01_-_CARLISLE_AIRPORT_-_PROPOSED_SITE_PLAN_22062017-2111742.pdf),
terminal floor plan (PDF) (http://publicaccess.carlisle.gov.uk/online-applications/files/DF4B8D6A4BD7EB4AB2D326885A5FEB9C/pdf/17_0568-01_18035C_-_10_-_CARLISLE_AIRPORT_-_PROPOSED_FLOOR_PLANS_22062017-2111745.pdf), links to all documents (http://publicaccess.carlisle.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=_CARLI_DCAPR_70884).

Access is from the new roundabout on the A689. The passenger terminal appears to be tiny: two "gates" but very little space landside or airside for more than a half full ATR. As someone with a background in construction and architecture, it's disappointing that the terminal building is not going to be much more than cheap steel shed, but I suppose it will have to start small, and hopefully be able to grow into the adjacent offices as space is needed.

[01475]

What they're building is still on the hopeful side of realistic. The regional flying ship has long since sailed, and we're seeing that all over Europe. If this airport can succeed then the following airports would be small but thriving bases of commercial passenger operations:

Blackpool, Cambridge, Gloucester, Manston, Oxford, Plymouth, Sheffield, Shoreham, Swansea.

They would have flights to Amsterdam, Belfast and / or Dublin, and London or Edinburgh (depending on distance).

That they aren't is a little bit sad :-( But the fact there are so many reasons this can't be the case means Carlisle has a struggle ahead.

[highwideandugly]

Where is the information published on the closure? Can’t find it on the AIS notam website?

[GrahamK]

Airport Facebook page

[EGPO]

Runway 7/25 to become 6/24.

Helicopter operations will be accepted

They original told us fixed wing small VFR traffic would contibye.
Especially as there is a business onsite that provided flight training and pleasure flights , year round.
The ' cross runway ' was to remain in use .
The I assume at the point they meet when that work is done that's when closure might be needed.
So this is a change again.

[DC3 Dave]

What they're building is still on the hopeful side of realistic. The regional flying ship has long since sailed, and we're seeing that all over Europe." "Carlisle has a struggle ahead."

It's hard to disagree with that. But Stobart have gained considerable experience as a regional airline in the last few years and it's equally hard to imagine the wider group pressing on with yet more capital expenditure on bringing the runway up to an acceptable standard together with the terminal and other works without using their experience to formulate a profit generating plan.

Surely, their experience at SEN has at least taught them that simply investing in airport infrastructure is no guarantee of success.

[bad bear]

I guess if someone else is funding almost £5m of the work for you its hard not to do it? It also makes that part of the project much more saleable

[highwideandugly]

Good point bad bear..makes you wonder what else the government is wasting our money on?

[highwideandugly]

Hang on...has Facebook gazumped the CAA?? Possibly..surely if an airfield is closing for a few months it should be notamed to all?? Still can’t find it...

[Tagron]

Enter December 1 (or later) in the NOTAM search facility and the relevant NOTAMs will appear

[NorthSouth]

Isn't that one of the major problems of the NOTAM system - no advance warning, only on the day. Too bad if you'd been planning a trip to Carlisle for months.

Also no mention on the airport's website which is pretty pathetic.

[N707ZS]

Presume airport is still open for the residents? What about the resident Falcon?

[EGPO]

When talking with the management a few months back .
He said that is going to be going down to Southend for the Duration.

[N707ZS]

Thanks EGPO, when he first got it, it was at DTVA for a very short period.

[fjencl]

Will the runways after completion of the works/realignment be fitted with ILS system.

[AirportPlanner1]

Blackpool, Cambridge, Gloucester, Manston, Oxford, Plymouth, Sheffield, Shoreham, Swansea.

They would have flights to Amsterdam, Belfast and / or Dublin, and London or Edinburgh (depending on distance).

If we'd actually built another couple of runways at Heathrow a lot of those airports along with the likes of Dundee, Humberside, Teeside probably would have routes there. Just as Paris is linked to everywhere imaginable in France that is beyond a two hour drive. Economically some of our communities would be in much better shape due to global connectivity and wider links with the capital.

[01475]

That's very true indeed. But our politicians are crippled by the paralysis of only wanting to do something that won't cause ill effects to anyone anywhere while ignoring the greater ill effects of doing nothing, which I include as one of the many reasons it can't happen (also APD).

[nighthawk117]

Based on reading the planning application, it seems that a terminal under 500sq/m in size doesn't require planning permission and consultation. The new terminal is 486 sq/m.

They're building it as small as possible to force it through the planning system as easily as possible.

If flights from Carlisle are a success, then they'll expand as needed, and should stand a better chance of getting planning permission, as it would technically be an extension rather than a new build facility.

So far everything is being done as cheaply, and with as much government money as possible. Very little risk to Stobart if it fails.

[fjencl]

If they can get the timetable for the flights right, and the right prices then am sure things could work out for them. After all the train from Carlisle to London Euston takes anywhere between 3hr 22mins and 4hr 31mins.
So good luck to it all.....

[PENNINE BOY]

Great business sense by not doing the runway in stages, a lot of Carlisle training aircraft hangared up in Blackpool, a mere 100mile trip to fly. How much will that hurt the home based Flying schools.

1 x GA aircraft probably generates between 6 and 10k in revenue to the airport in landing fees and fuel, even thou most obtain fuel from Kirkbride due to it being considerably cheaper.

Pax flights without a subsidy would bankrupt the airport, like it did to Blackpool. Low cost airlines would pay no landing or navigation charges, and would want paying for each passenger that got off at Carlisle.

Larger aircraft would require extra fire, security cover etc, that means greater costs for the airport operator. Freight would be the only real option.

[SWBKCB]

1 x GA aircraft probably generates between 6 and 10k in revenue to the airport in landing fees and fuel

How much of that is generated in Dec and Jan?


Larger aircraft would require extra fire, security cover etc, that means greater costs for the airport operator

As explained earlier in the thread, larger a/c aren't the aim - not allowed by planning permission and not viable through the new terminal/office block and apron

[Harry Wayfarers]

If they can get the timetable for the flights right, and the right prices then am sure things could work out for them. After all the train from Carlisle to London Euston takes anywhere between 3hr 22mins and 4hr 31mins.
So good luck to it all.....


And how long, and how much is it going to cost, to travel from downtown Carlisle to CAX, perhaps an absolute minimum 30 minute check-in, a 1hr 20min sector CAX/SEN, deboarding then an average 10-15 walk & wait for a train, and then a 1hr (ish) train journey in to a London terminus?

I'd suggest that a 3hr 22min train journey would be quicker and probably cheaper!

[Barling Magna]

downtown Carlisle

I don't think many people live in downtown Carlisle. The airport's catchment will be the whole of northern Cumbria and parts of Scotland and Northumberland so the difference in trannsport to the station or airport is probably limited, provided you travel by your own car.

[Heathrow Harry]

Airportplanner - extra runways at LHR will cost a fortune and the airlines will have to pay. They aren't going to be interested in 50 pax to Carlisle or Dundee. It'll be every hour on the hour to JFK.

same as yr local multiplex 20 screens and everyone thinks you'll get all sorts of arty movies... but what you get is 15 screens showing Batman v. Thor v. Paddington starting every 15 minutes.....

[viscount3]

Perhaps Stobart are thinking about moving some freight between Carlisle & Southend using ATR42 to help the flights get off the ground....?

[fjencl]

Time will tell ....it's the waiting game

[highwideandugly]

Waste of money,time and government funds!

[daz211]

Wasn’t the same said about SEN

[01475]

The difference I see between Carlisle and Southend is that Southend Airport has a railway link to a major city, whereas Carlisle Airport doesn't but Carlisle itself does.

I wish them luck, but I feel that if this could work places like Swansea, Tees-side, Plymouth , Liverpool & Humberside would have more domestic services than they do.

[daz211]

Some nice pics on the Carlisle Airport Facebook page of the runway upgrade which is now underway.

[nighthawk117]

I don't think many people live in downtown Carlisle. The airport's catchment will be the whole of northern Cumbria and parts of Scotland and Northumberland so the difference in trannsport to the station or airport is probably limited, provided you travel by your own car.


Exactly, there's no advantage between airport and train station, so why wouldn't you just take the train if going to London? For most parts of Annan and Northumberland, they are on the rail line to Carlisle too - so connecting onto a london train becomes easier than going to the airport.

However, there seems to be a lot of focus in here about the Southend flights. Don't forget there is Dublin & Belfast too. I read one of the early planning permission applications, which included a study on feasibility of the Southend and Dublin routes.

It suggested that Southend would never be viable, and would always need subsidies to operate, while Dublin was expected to prove profitable after 3 years.

Heathrow 3rd runway has been approved, and as part of the approval there is a requirement to launch a certain number of new domestic destinations. FlyBE have released a proposed route map of what they'd like to consider as part of their support for the runway - Carlisle was amongst the proposed routes.

A route to Heathrow with onward connections would certainly be viable.

Building a terminal at Carlisle also opens up other possibilities. What about flights to the Isle of Man on a small 10 seater aircraft? perhaps even scenic tours of the Lakes & Hadrians wall. Occasional passenger charter flights to elsewhere in the UK, again on 10 seaters. A lot of Northern football teams tend to use charters when playing teams in the deep south - could Carlisle make use of the airport when playing Plymouth, Exeter or elsewhere?

We have the airport there, and if passenger facilities can be offered at little to no cost, then we may as well do so. It wouldnt take a great deal of flights to cover the costs of them.


Pax flights without a subsidy would bankrupt the airport, like it did to Blackpool. Low cost airlines would pay no landing or navigation charges, and would want paying for each passenger that got off at Carlisle.

Larger aircraft would require extra fire, security cover etc, that means greater costs for the airport operator. Freight would be the only real option.


As others have stated, aircraft size is limited to ATR42 size, so not a great issue. Cargo flights also require fire coverage, so thats a mute point. Security cover will be minimal, immigration will be provided by staff from other airports on an ad-hoc bases when needed, and any other jobs can be covered by Stobart Rail staff if needed.

The terminal is being built and operated as cheaply as possible, which will allow them to see just how much demand there is with minimal risk. It can always be expanded if the demand is there, or maintained at little to no cost if the demand is limited.

But at least there will be a facility there if someone wants to use it.

[fjencl]

15. Passenger and/or cargo fixed wing aircraft movements shall be limited to the
following types of aircraft: Jetstream 41; DHC-8Q400; ATR 42; ATR 72; and
RJ146 (or aircraft of equivalent characteristics in terms of size, weight, carrying
capacity, noise, and other polluting emissions).


Perhaps the embraer 195 will be permitted to land here within the definition of the above planning permissions.

[Harry Wayfarers]

A route to Heathrow with onward connections would certainly be viable.

Euroair, probably other(s) also, operated a LHR route in the good old days and failed, it needs to be operated by an operator with interline connections whereas, in one booking, they can book CAX/DXB or wherever and not pat thru the nose for a CAX/LHR and with no guarantee of making their onward connection that they may have paid again thru the nose for.

But then Stobart Air don't wish for a LHR service ... They seem to only recognise one LON airport!

[Plane.Silly]

Considering their main operations are at SEN, it would make sense to operate to that 1 LON airport. LHR/LGW would be too expensive for the limited pax numbers they'd put through

Though i agree, small pax flights to other big hubs (DUB/AMS/CDG/FRA) might be a worthwhile venture to improve the utilisation of the airport. If they were more serious about that, they'd make a bigger terminal

[01475]

Until major London airports have sufficient capacity for it to be worthwhile letting in small planes it's logical for London to be served via a smaller airport with less capacity issues, and for the hub connection to be where all the other small UK regional airports avail themselves of the current alternative to Heathrow's 3rd runway; Schipol.

Of course all this means that both services are made less viable, and that border staff get involved; a perfect example of the harm being caused by political dithering :-(

[AirportPlanner1]

Though i agree, small pax flights to other big hubs (DUB/AMS/CDG/FRA) might be a worthwhile venture to improve the utilisation of the airport. If they were more serious about that, they'd make a bigger terminal

I'd suggest that in the event KLM was secured the proposed terminal would be adequate for their needs, you're going to see 70 or 80 seaters as they do in Norwich, Humberside etc rather than 737s or Airbuses.

[Plane.Silly]

Reading the current planning permission that aircraft up to ATR-72/ RJ146 /-8 is the limit the runway can handle.
Wuld KLM (cityhopper) E175's fit into this category?
Or would we go down the messy route of adding BE ops?

[DC3 Dave]

Before going down this road look at the plans for the terminal. This is small scale with capital SS's.

[ara01jbb]

I'm immediately thinking of LH... Eurowings has had a modest but sustainable seasonal route into NQY. German tourists love the English countryside and national parks, so Carlisle could could be a winner for weekly inbound tourism to the Lake District.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I think you'll find that Cornwall features in a very popular German TV series ... Perhaps a little alike 'Doc Martin', and that is the reason that Cornwall and NQY are so popular with the Germans

[Plane.Silly]

Reading the current planning permission that aircraft up to ATR-72/ RJ146 /-8 is the limit the runway can handle.
Wuld KLM (cityhopper) E175's fit into this category?
Or would we go down the messy route of adding BE ops?

Without making myself sound stupid, i just remembered Stobart air operates ATR's & operate to DUB. Surely that's the Hub connection sorted? Then others can add on others as/when needed

[Harry Wayfarers]

You mean that Stobart wouldn't object if another operator tried to start a LHR service in direct competition with their SEN service?

[Plane.Silly]

Probably not another LON, i meant to refer to other hubs and/or other smaller airports

[Harry Wayfarers]

Well if it's a non UK hub, as is DUB, then the likes of SPL & CDG, to name but two, would be direct competition to Stobart's DUB route and, to a degree, their SEN route.

This is a problem with the airport and airline operator both being the same, in the old days I worked for Brymon Airways who operated both PLH & NQY airports, the airports were to never to develop to their full potential because they were a closed shop.

Similarly Lands End and Skybus, I understand the helicopter operation wanted to relocate to LEQ but Skybus told them to Foxtrot Oscar, and just how many turboprop operators is SEN attracting when they have Stobart Air in-house who can operate there cheaper than any competition?

[AirportPlanner1]

In fairness to Stobart there are hardly any turboprop operators....at least not any that would need/want to go to SEN or CAX.

[DC3 Dave]

I would imagine Stobart have many contacts amongst Cumbria's business community. And prominent use of the Stobart brand may play well with many in that area. That, together with their experience in running a not insignificant regional airline may prove key factors.

Others have mentioned taxpayers money. But why criticise Stobart if they take advantage of what's on offer?

[SWBKCB]

I understand there wasn't much contact with some very local members of Cumbria's business community when the runway was closed with 48 hours notice to relocate... :confused:

[highwideandugly]

I refer the honourable gentlemen (and ladies)to my previous post..95

[southside bobby]

General Manager of Carlisle stated yesterday at a local conference that the airline starting ops from CAX will be named in January...(negotiations with several)...Ops to commence in June`18 with minimum 2 daily to SEN/DUB & BRU...

[SWBKCB]

Think BRU should be Belfast?

VIDEO: Airline to fly from Carlisle Airport to be named | News & Star (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/VIDEO-Airline-to-fly-from-Carlisle-Airport-to-be-named-d28b0d2c-aa74-4c33-8ab7-7dac4946d18b-ds)

[fjencl]

It's interesting that they are speaking to several other airlines to see who will operate the 3 planned routes. You would have thought that it would have been stobart air that would have been operating the flights. Least we only have to wait until the end of January to find out who the airline or airlines will be.

[Plane.Silly]

Who's betting it's Stobart air...

[SWBKCB]

Does seem odd that it might not be Stobart flying between two Stobart airports - maybe the discussion is whether they will be Stobart in their own right or as a Flybe franchise or as an Aer Lingus franchise, or some other combination?

Who could be other candidates?

[Plane.Silly]

Eastern have spare E170's now that Flybe have less work for them, would need to upsize other routes to free up the smaller aircraft to operate from CAX though

[nighthawk117]

He said: "I obviously can't mention any names but we are hoping to make an announcement about the start-up airline at the end of January."


So it looks like it's to be a new startup airline that will launch the flights. Firnas Airways are the only new startup in the UK, they just took delivery of a J31, and have yet to announce any routes.

With a capacity for 19 passengers... now we know why the terminal can only accommodate 20 passengers!

[SWBKCB]

start-up as in service, not in airline

[fjencl]

Carlisle to London for under £100, reveals city airport | News & Star (http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Carlisle-to-London-for-under-100-reveals-city-airport-6c0f40fa-b7b8-4508-93d2-90784d985b6c-ds)

:D

[HH6702]

Eastern or Loganair

[fjencl]

Suppose it could be any other airline who offer ACMI, doesn't mean it has to be either loganair or Eastern. Could even be Stobart air. Just have to wait for the new year announcement I guess.

[LAX_LHR]

I’m actually putting my hat in the ring for Firnas.

New start up that will be looking for incentives to help them start up. They have an emphasis of wanting to serve ‘unserved’ routes, will use the J41 so ideal for Carlisle and so on. They need to put their aircraft somewhere and can’t think of many other unserved UK domestic routes that would be an obvious fit for them?

Also, as this is a Stobart airport, why would they be so coy if Stobart Air were operating the routes, would hardly be a ‘didn’t see that one coming’ moment, would it?

[Harry Wayfarers]

If it's reportedly less than £100 per seat, presumably including all taxes so net quite significantly less than £100, how many passengers would a Jetstream need to break even.

Straight away I can think of crew & engineering accommodation and transport, maintenance, airport navigation, landing, parking and handling charges, in flight catering, Eurocontrol.

[SWBKCB]

Jetstream start-ups in the UK don't have a great record - when was the last successful one? Can't see why Stobart would take the risk (and don't Firnas have a J31?).

I had assumed that the Dublin link would be linked into the Aer Lingus franchise to allow interlining, if so presumably they would have an interest in what was being operated in their name also.

Also, doesn't this route have the regional fund subsidy - isn't that linked to a named airline?

[compton3bravo]

The break even figure would be more than the number of seats of the Jetstream. One remembers the BEA Heralds operating the Scottish Highlands and Islands routes with 48 seats - break even 52!

[Harry Wayfarers]

On the other hand I remember the Air UK Y44 F27's operating ABZ/SVG/BGO whereas the break even load factor was just 7 but then on their LBA/BFS route it might have been 30!

[fjencl]

Carlisle Airport will have flights to London, Dublin and Belfast next year - with free parking - Chronicle Live (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/whats-on/travel-tourism/carlisle-airport-flights-london-dublin-14059194)

[SWBKCB]

Considering the size of the car park and that it also acts as the car park for the Stobart HQ offices, would probably cost more to collect than they'd make.

[fjencl]

Where have read that it states that the car park which will be in front of the new terminal building will be for Stobart HQ office staff, i must have missed that bit in the planning documentation.

[SWBKCB]

Looking at the planning application, most of the building is Stobart HQ offices etc

[01475]

Hmm. Europe as a whole is low on successful Jetstream routes. Even Jetstream PSO operators sometimes struggle to stay afloat!

[nighthawk117]

Considering the size of the car park and that it also acts as the car park for the Stobart HQ offices, would probably cost more to collect than they'd make.

It's two separate car parks, one for Stobart HQ and one for the terminal.


I’m actually putting my hat in the ring for Firnas.

New start up that will be looking for incentives to help them start up. They have an emphasis of wanting to serve ‘unserved’ routes, will use the J41 so ideal for Carlisle and so on. They need to put their aircraft somewhere and can’t think of many other unserved UK domestic routes that would be an obvious fit for them?


Small correction, but Firnas have a Jetstream 31. I initially thought it might be Firnas, the Jetstream would be a perfect fit, and with them not having announced any plans yet, it made a bit of sense. But apparently they are determined to operate their own flights from elsewhere.

Stobart Air have been awarded funding to operate the flights, so they need to do so under their own name, but that doesn't stop them from outsourcing the actual flying. The smallest plane in the Stobart fleet is an ATR42, which is a big plane to fill from Carlisle. Outsourcing to a J31/J42 or Saab 340 makes sense. If not Firnas, perhaps Loganair or Eastern.


I had assumed that the Dublin link would be linked into the Aer Lingus franchise to allow interlining, if so presumably they would have an interest in what was being operated in their name also.

Interlining and transferring are two different things, however nothing has been announced for either. Although Stobart operare flights on behalf of Aer Lingus, this side of the business is entirely driven by Aer Lingus - they choose where to fly and take control of all marketing and ticket sales, and assume all risk for flying the route - Stobart get a fixed fee. I cant see Aer Lingus being interested in taking on the risk of serving Carlisle.

The flights will likely operate under the Stobart name. It's possible a deal may be done to interline with Aer Lingus, they certainly have an established relationship, and in future if the flights perform well Aer Lingus may choose to take on the route.

[horatio_b]

Work has started on the foundations for the new terminal building:

https://twitter.com/carlisleairport

[DC3 Dave]

A very informative post from nighthawk117. I believe he is spot on in his first sentence - last paragraph. Recent PR releases at SEN have given equal prominence to Stobart Air as Flybe. I think next year will see a concerted effort to promote Stobart as an up front airline, not just as an aircraft operator that relies on others' brands and marketing.

It will be very small scale, but in my view that's the direction they are going.

[01475]

That would make sense... what's the strongest brand in Cumbria...?

[inOban]

Carr's Biscuits!

[Beatts]

PUBLIC CONSULTATION - RNAV IMPLEMENTATION (http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/index.php/9-uncategorised/84-rnav-consultation)

[Cyrano]

Although Stobart operare flights on behalf of Aer Lingus, this side of the business is entirely driven by Aer Lingus - they choose where to fly and take control of all marketing and ticket sales, and assume all risk for flying the route - Stobart get a fixed fee.

Are you sure about that? My understanding was that it's a franchise deal, i.e. Aer Lingus takes control of all marketing and ticket sales, but Stobart ultimately decides where/when to fly (obviously in discussion with Aer Lingus) and takes the commercial risk.

[DC3 Dave]

This is how I believe it is. However if it is as nighthawk117 says then all I can say it's nice work for Stobart if they can get it. I can think of a few others who would like to operate that way.

[Expressflight]

I'm sure that the situation is as Cyrano says and Stobart Air chooses the routes, subject to approval from Aer Lingus no doubt, and takes the full commercial risk.

[cumbrianboy]

It's actually a combination of the two. Some routes are driven by Stobart with EI approval for the brand, and sometimes EI ask Stobart to operate on their behalf if they want a presence on a route. It's a two way relationship.

[Expressflight]

In the latter case do Aer Lingus take the full commercial risk do you know?

[runawayedge]

It is a franchise. Cyrano is correct, cumbrianboy incorrect.

[fjencl]

You would hope that when the flights start in June 2018 that they will have more than 29 passengers each way on the routes, then they wont have to operate on the j41 that has been mentioned, surely they will have enough passengers to be starting with the ATR42 as also mentioned in the article.

[cumbrianboy]

If it's a route EI want then it's usually a different model, or at least it has been in the past. The majority of routes are now established and at stobarts risk but over the last couple of years they have done a few that EI asked and EI covered the risk

[fjencl]

I see the Frame work for the new terminal building is going up as we speak.......

[bigjim99]

New AT46s are heading to STK shortly I believe to replace the aging 42s. Not sure how many are set to appear and if one could be freed for CAX.

[GrahamK]

Having a look through some of the pics on the airports FB site, anyone remember the year that a Balkan Antonov 12 landed? And also a British Midland 737 (I suspect 1992ish for this one?)

Cheers

[MrAngry]

The AN12 would have been 1995 or 96. It was a dangerous goods flight. The cargo was loaded near the hold for 25, as far from buildings and roads as possible.

[Bishop01]

I remember the Air Bridge vanguards and TNT BAe146's that use to visit regular on those flights....

[Alteagod]

I remember dispatching gill air 330's from BFS-CAX as part of the royal mail skynet must have been late 90's ish

[fjencl]

Perhaps Stobart could even decide to use Eastern Airways with the start up operation come June 2018 for the flights, after all the smallest aircraft they have is the J41 but clearly have other larger types to be using when needed.....just a thought.

We just have to wait and see what there plans will be when they make the announcement sometime this month......

[daz211]

Seem to remember love air STN-CAX in the early 1990’s

[canberra97]

Can you elaborate on that as I've not aware of any scheduled flights from STN to CAX in the early 90's or ever!

Or are you referring to flights by the RAF under the name of 'Love Air'?

[GrahamK]

Lakeside Northwest operated CAX-LPL-STN with a J31(?) For a few months

[ericsson16]

Any idea when the Runways are re-opening for visiting GA aircraft? Thanks,

[canberra97]

Thanks for the information regarding the previously operated STN to CAX flights that was obviously under my radar as I wasn't aware of such an operation.

[SWBKCB]

From Wiki:

In 1993 New Air started a London service to London Stansted Airport, but collapsed two months later. Lakeside Northwest continued the service until the end of the year, but also collapsed

Wiki also reckons VLM proposed Fk.50's to LCY - don't remember that!

[GrahamK]

Remember the proposal, but then Virgin introduced the Pendolino onto the WCML and services became much quicker

[LTNman]

Routes out of Carlisle have all been historic failures. The difference this time and the only reason they will operate is that the taxpayer will be putting money into Stobart’s pocket. While I would support subsidies to the Scottish Islands it is hard to justify money to Stobart when there is already an hourly service to London by rail. In fact Carlisle is better connected than many areas where rail services were removed in the 1960’s.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Admittedly previous CAX route attempts have failed miserably, the one I recall was EuroAir Budgies LHR/CAX/DND, and although times have changed whereas more people are travelling by air it is because fares have dropped with the low-cost carrier concept and let it not be missed that Stobart Air already have a relationship with one such low cost carrier so perhaps there may be discussions going on behind the scenes.

But as far as scheduled services are concerned, and having seen VLM already mentioned, I was going to suggest that VLM may be the ideal operator, there can't be much depreciation left to go on F50's thus the operating costs shall be less, but then an operator isn't likely to fill anything like 50 seats in/out of CAX, what with BA offering a LHR service out of NCL, MAN with all it's international services not so far away and with PIK suffering financially for decades just how much of a market does CAX really have?

Perhaps CAX may become like a NWI, NWI has STN not so far down the road, has a relatively sparse catchment area, yet has IT operations, trouble is likely to be finding the appropriate size of scheduled services aircraft whereas load factors shall be profitable whilst able to compete on fares with the not so far away opposition.

But I recall reading that PIK has been making a few bob out of the military popping in for refuels, that CAX seems to have a resident GA market, perhaps the airport may be able to break even or better, I shall be watching with interest.

[SWBKCB]

To be fair, Stobart were working on their airport plans well before the subsidies for regional flights were launched - but if they are available they would be stupid not to make use of them.

[tws123]

3 June launch for London, Dublin and Belfast flights. However no news yet on the operator or frequencies - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/lake-district-airport-to-open-for-passenger-flights-for-first-time-in-25-years-a3746946.html

[ara01jbb]

I suspect domestic routes will be very difficult to sustain. Operator / London airport / and timings will be critical.

In the meantime, IMHO, Stobart should be on the phone to Lufthansa and Eurowings. NQY has sustained seasonal weekly service from Düsseldorf and Stuttgart on and off for a couple of years now. The south-west has serious appeal for German tourists, no reason the Carlisle couldn't do the same for the Lake District.

[inOban]

I believe the attraction of Cornwall to German tourists is due to the popularity of a TV drama which is filmed there. Unless there's another shot in the Lake District......

[AirportPlanner1]

This is true but Jersey has also sustained German tourism for some time without the benefit of a TV drama (yes I know there is some history to it). Various parts of the UK have received Swiss charters in the past, Enniskillen being a notable one.

[PAXboy]

Carlisle Lake District airport to open for passenger flights in June

Flights from the south of England, Belfast and Dublin to the small regional airport are set to boost tourism to Cumbria
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/jan/23/carlisle-lake-district-airport-passenger-flights-june-southend-belfast-dublin

[NorthSouth]

The south-west has serious appeal for German tourists, no reason the Carlisle couldn't do the same for the Lake District.I suspect tourist-based flights (whether charter or scheduled) would have to use jets, and unless there are plans to significantly alter the declared distances on the new runway, that will be a problem at Carlisle. TODA is fine at 1799m but the LDAs of 1317/1445m are unlikely to support e.g. A320

[SWBKCB]

Sounds like a good idea to me - not even anything new in this latest press release, though it does seem to be getting some nice coverage.

[SWBKCB]

With credit to tws123, this schedule has been quoted on the SEN thread - the DUB rotation doesn't look much good for the trans-Atlantic connections which are meant to be one of the benefits of that link?

[nighthawk117]

Neither is the terminal, with room for about 20 passengers (by my estimates based on the plans).

Why not use Manchester, and take the train straight to the heart of the lakes?

[SWBKCB]

And those 20 would have to be good friends.... ;)

[davidjohnson6]

I hope people will forgive the cynicism, but I find it rather strange that a route has been announced but no airline has been explicitly mentioned. If it's Stobart that's fine but I really don't understand why this has been left unstated by the press release (s) - almost as if somebody is leaving wiggle room to blame somebody else in case plans should fall through

[DC9_10]

Cannot see this being sustainable from Belfast. Most holidaymakers from Northern Ireland, family included, usually travel by boat and car and also take in the Scottish west coast with a few nights in the northern lakes. With multiple sailings from Belfast and Larne to Cairnryan, it's a 75 minute drive.

[SWBKCB]

They will be Stobart flights (they are named of the Regional fund award), what hasn't been decided (announced?) is who will be operating the flights - and it has been previously said that this will be decided in the new year. There isn't anything new in this release, but it seems to be getting good coverage - which presumably is the point.

The airline doesn't really need to be known at this point (no tickets on sale yet ), and that announcement will be another little publicity bump

[TartinTon]

I think it can be safely assumed that whoever the airline turns out to be 100% of the commercial risk will sit with Stobart. I have no doubts that it will be Stobart but they may be able to persuade Flybe to stick their code on it which will clearly help matters. The problem will be catchment and market. There unfortunately isn't much of either but the guys at Stobart have a vision of what they want to happen so good luck to them and I hope that they prove me wrong.

[runawayedge]

TT. STK have a franchise agreement with BE. There is no persuasion required. BE will happily collect franchise fee!

[fjencl]

Dozens of new jobs to be created at Carlisle lake District airport soon.....

[SWBKCB]

Is that new jobs or staff moving into the Stobart Rail HQ offices?

[fjencl]

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Dozens-of-new-jobs-to-be-created-at-Carlisle-Airport-f4b52eb7-6a07-42ef-b87b-ae7fbf306c12-ds

[LGS6753]

From today's Blue Swan:

https://blueswandaily.com/carlisle-airport-to-reopen-to-commercial-services-can-it-now-attract-and-sustain-the-routes-it-needs/

[highwideandugly]

Pretty accurate article...as has been said many times on this thread..history tells us it won’t work.
Catchment area too small and the Lake adistrict a red herring as I would think the majority of uk tourists would use a car to get round,especially with all that walking gear and the Dog!!
Most foreign tourists are on busses..?

[viscount3]

perhaps they will utilize the 42s for freight out of Carlisle to southend :confused:

[EGPO]

One thing in that article.. since when did KLM stop flights to and from LBA ?.
Also nothing to stop Stobart operating a Flybe EJET into Amsterdam . The Ejet is small enough it's under the size limit .
Also
It may see DTV style charters.
Plus similar to Irish airports some incoming foreign flights again charters or summer only routes .
If they sold seats to Brits wanting to travel outbound is a different thing .
But the other question should be with a new runway and Terminal .
Will the current Scruffy Business jet ' Terminal ' be smartened up? Is it staying put or sharing with the new operation?.
Seems Cargo is worthwhile.
It's not a desperately short runway.
I do wonder about that figure mentioned of 50,000 pax in the first year is to me a wild dream if they are starting six months in.
DSA has been going Ten years and still people don't realise it's there
Travel to Brampton or from the M6 not a single ' Airport sign or advert anywhere they need to get that sorted in quick time.
It takes highways months to lift a spade

[AirportPlanner1]

I think price is the only thing that gives the SEN route any chance of success.

There appears to be only one train that will get you into London before 10am and it costs over £200. Based on MAN fares a last minute ticket to London via SEN should be around £150 flight + train and really you should get into London by about 9am.

I have my doubts as to whether many people will use the early flight heading north, I also wonder if people will fly down and just get a train back later on.

[SWBKCB]

The usual pre-occupation with getting to and from city centres. Big place London!

Plenty of other errors in the article, though the general gist isn't far off. I don't see any sort of cargo operation.

[rowly6339]

Has anyone considered the fact that they (Stobart) would use it for flying staff from HQ to their London airport for meetings and the like, they do it with the MAN-SEN flights.

[southside bobby]

Comic then or genius...

Stobart provide.....the airport..the terminal..the handling..the aircraft..the airline..& now the pax!.

[AirportPlanner1]

The usual pre-occupation with getting to and from city centres. Big place London!

Yes it is but central London is where the train drops you off and where a majority of people would be heading, plus Southend isn't so good for reaching parts of the south-east outside of East Anglia. So looking at the centre is probably the most useful basis for comparison.

The market for Essex to Cumbria/borders has to be pretty small I'd have thought.

[DC3 Dave]

Definitely agree with AirportPlanner1 Does not mean that a subsidised small aircraft cannot do ok between CAX and SEN, but be bold Stobart. You know CAX - LCY would be a better option.

[01475]

I honestly think they should try both (if they think anything at all can work, which I don't necessarily do)! Neither route would really cannibalise the other.

If they want to compete with the train in such a way as people will be willing to pay a fair amount for the pleasure then there needs to be a number of flights per day that are at nice times and that are convenient for as many onward destinations (by surface and air) as possible. It's all very well for people to point out that the train that arrives before 10am is pricey, but there are a lot of trains and it won't necessarily be possible to beat them on convenience with 2 flights a day so an airport that doesn't best serve the largest area of SE England. And if they want to complete for all the passengers that go on all the other much cheaper trains... well, they're not paying so much at all and that might be more of a SEN type job!

[Barling Magna]

Comic then or genius...

Stobart provide.....the airport..the terminal..the handling..the aircraft..the airline..& now the pax!.

Clearly genius since the government (also known as you and I) are paying for it.......

[southside bobby]

So happy days then Barling Magna.

Noted the "Terminal" at CAX is being funded by a £5M injection from Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership too.

[BHD2BFS]

Is there any concept images of how the terminal will look? Or just a miniature version of Southend?

[canberra97]

The new terminal at Carlisle is absolutely nothing like the terminal at Southend, there is absolutely no comparison :-)

There are images online a simple Google search will show you images.

It's basically within an office building as in the Stobart HQ with a very small passenger terminal incorporated on part of the ground floor and as others have mentioned it's only big enough to handle about 50 passengers so it's definitely not a 'miniature version' of the Southend terminal in any form.

[LTNman]

The newspaper reports the creation of 50 new jobs when the terminal opens.

So how many passengers are likely to depart the airport each day? What fees would be generated by those passengers and would it cover even the wage bill?

[SWBKCB]

As no airline, type, schedule, fares have been announced, who knows?

However, I'm confident that up to 50 jobs will be created. :E

[compton3bravo]

Looks like one job per passenger then!

[Plane.Silly]

surely not 50 pax for the full day? Rather more 50 pax at one time, if the airport got upto 10/12 flights a day we could be looking closer to 500 than 50, which would make the operation more commercially viable

[Harry Wayfarers]

I read that 2 x SEN and 2 x Ireland flights per day, presuming the aircraft is a 50 seater that's 200 seats, not 200 passengers, a 20% load factor would be 40 pax, sure there will be incoming pax also but they don't generate airport revenue the same as outgoing pax do.

[nighthawk117]

Let's throw around some rough numbers:

Based on the drawings, there appear to be positions for the following roles:

2x Information
2x Check-in (I assume also handling boarding)
3x Security
2x Passport / Immigration Checks

Turnaround will probably require 3 ground handling personnel too. So that's a total of 12 employees at any one time. Assuming 2 shifts of 7 hours, that's 24 employees working each day.

Assuming all can be persuaded to work minimum wage, that's a cost of £1260 per day.

A lot of the other costs can be written off - it's already an active airfield, so write off ATC, fire and airport ops expenses. The terminal is also part of an existing building, so write off heating, cleaning etc.

So, expected revenue?

Let's assume it is a 48 seat ATR, operating 2x SEN, 2x DUB and 1x BFS for a total of 5 movements per day.

Based on the quoted costs for Leeds Bradford as reference (1), you can expect the following:

Landing Fees (£15 per tonne - 19 tonnes) - £285 (£1425 for 5 arrivals)

Passenger Fees - Per departing flight:
Passenger Charge: £13.20 per pax
Security Charge: £3.79 per pax
Baggage Screening: £1.09 per pax (regardless of whether they have bags or not)

Total Per Pax: £18.08

Assuming every flight is 50%: £2169.60
Assuming every flight is full: £4339.20

Therefore, the profit per day can be expected to be £2334 - £4504 based on those rough estimates.

Obviously there's a lot of assumptions here. Depending on what the real impact on other costs will be, it may certainly be possible for Carlisle Airport to make a profit from passenger flights. However, it all depends on whether Stobart Air can make a profit off the flights. They will be the more cost sensitive part of the operation - if they can't make a profit, then no-one will.

(1) https://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/about-the-airport/operational-information/fees-and-charges

[Red Four]

None on here seem to have considered that the people that work in Stobart HQ in non-aviation areas, may well be called on to multi-task and provide some of the work force for the sporadic flights. It would certainly make sense to do this.

[N707ZS]

Leeds is quoted, but they don't make a profit!

[Harry Wayfarers]

Have these non-aviation staff been security vetted for all the airside security that exists these days?

[Plane.Silly]

A good suggestion there Nighthawk, worth mentioning my 500 pax estimate was very much on the optimistic side, and probably will be when it all kicks off

[southside bobby]

Don`t forget the Stobart staff shuttling between the bases as alluded to before..Lol

[highwideandugly]

Cheaper to take a truck!

[GLAEDI]

The two passport/Immigration checks would be Home Office employees but they wouldn’t be based there. As all flights are currently within the CTA and EU Customs Union there’s no requirement for a permanent Border Force staff. The Dublin flight does require it to be separated for baggage and arrivals from the domestic flight as a requirement of Customs. This can be done by simply not having a domestic arrival at the same time or holding pax on the plane until the other flight clears. Desks will be needed for both Police & Border Force if they wish to carry out checks under the Counter Terrorism Act & Immigration Act/entry from Eire order. Cumbria Police will provide a permanent presence for CT work and Border Force will cover as per risk from probably from GLA, NCL or MAN. All at the taxpayers expense.

[rowly6339]

Runway to open 4th June apparently.

[SWBKCB]

I should hope so - that's the date quoted for the start of PAX services!

[highwideandugly]

Count down on...bets by ....airline,schedule,prices..ooohhh the excitement...

[Alteagod]

3 days a week to BHD. From 79.00 each way

[compton3bravo]

How much!.....

[mart901]

3 days a week to BHD. From 79.00 each way


According to whom?

[highwideandugly]

Hi guys..any ideas as to the lucky airline putting their reputation on the line yet?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Well the airline is clearly Stobart Air, now should they opt to sub-contract that work to another carrier it won't be that carrier's reputation on any line, they are merely acting as a sub-contractor to Stobart Air

[highwideandugly]

Come on guys..any news on airline,schedule ,prices and dates yet?

[tophat27dt]

Only Stobarts can answer your question. Our crystal balls rarely tell the facts.