Midair Collision Near Waddesdon

[Tony Flynn]

BBC reports midair collision between light aircraft and helicopter near Waddesdon, Bucks.

This from Bucks & MK Fire Brigade - Firefighters currently assisting other emergency services at scene of air accident near Waddesdon. Air Accidents Investigation Branch informed. Disruption to road network around Waddesdon likely for the rest of the day

[rattle]

Waddesdon crash, plane crash, plane and helicopter crash, buckinghamshire plane crash, waddesdon plane crash, bucks plane crash, mid air collision, waddesdon hill, air crash, plane crash today | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/17/helicopter-and-plane-collide-mid-air-near-buckinghamshire-manor-house-7087644/)

No further details yet but a beautiful day to be flying around here.

[cats_five]

A helicopter and plane have crashed mid-air in Buckinghamshire.

Read more: Waddesdon crash, plane crash, plane and helicopter crash, buckinghamshire plane crash, waddesdon plane crash, bucks plane crash, mid air collision, waddesdon hill, air crash, plane crash today | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/17/helicopter-and-plane-collide-mid-air-near-buckinghamshire-manor-house-7087644/?ito=cbshare)
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

[Noobyflewby]

www. bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-42024712

[airpolice]

Incident first reported @ 12:06 and AAIB are en route.

[bobstay]

It's always busy near WCO and I know I've been guilty in the past of paying too much attention to pointing passengers at the Rothschild palace and not enough to a sharp lookout.

Hoping against the odds for a positive outcome.

[Bravo73]

BBC link: Aircraft and helicopter in 'mid-air crash' near Aylesbury Aircraft and helicopter in 'mid-air crash' near Aylesbury - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-42024712)

[DB777]

FR24 shows G-JAMM over there on playback around midday – tracked from Wycombe Air Park, nothing else 'light' on radar at their alt at the time tho.

[oversteer]

A 152, G-WACG was overhead at about the same time, unless it just stayed below coverage altitude for the remainder of its flight
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-wacg#f8efef7
Fingers crossed for survivors

[Bravo73]

Rolling BBC updates: Updates: 'Mid-air crash' in Buckinghamshire - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-42030439)

Both aircraft came from Wycombe Air Park.

[JumpJumpJump]

Shall we stop posting Aircraft Registrations that were near at the time based on totally incomplete data. Friends and families of the victims and of aircraft not involved could very well be reading this. Posting Registrations until comfirmed will only add unnecessary anguish.

[helonorth]

No further details yet but a beautiful day to be flying around here.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

[rattle]

You've lost me there, sorry.

Is it legal to fly over a crash site?

[Bravo73]

Is it legal to fly over a crash site?

Not at the moment. There is a temporary Danger Area in place up to 3000ft.

[212man]

You've lost me there, sorry.

Is it legal to fly over a crash site?

He means that it is highly unlikely anyone survived, so discussing what a beautiful day it was might be considered tasteless or ill-considered. Like asking Mrs Lincoln if - apart from her husband being assassinated - it was a good play?

[airpolice]

Mid-air collision: aircraft came from Wycombe Air Park
A helicopter and an aircraft have been involved in a mid-air collision over Buckinghamshire.

Both of the aircraft are understood to have come from Wycombe Air Park and collided near Waddesdon shortly after midday.

A spokesman for the airstrip, near High Wycombe, said: "Wycombe Air Park can confirm that at 12 o'clock local today we were informed of an incident north-west of Aylesbury involving two aircraft from Wycombe Air Park."

Emergency services including air ambulance are currently at the scene.

[John R81]

You've lost me there, sorry.

Is it legal to fly over a crash site?




To begin with, yes. But a temporary restriction will be imposed as soon as the incident is known, and then it is prohibited until the Temporary Danger Area is withdrawn.

The NOTAM reads:


Q) EGTT/QRDCA/IV/BO/W/000/030/5149N00054W003
B) FROM: 17/11/17 13:15C) TO: 17/11/17 17:00
E) TEMPORARY DANGER AREA. SAROPS OFF. NO RESTRICTIONS ON FREQUENCIESOWING TO AN EMERGENCY AT UPPER WINCHENDON ATEMPORARY DANGER AREA TO BE KNOWN AS EG D199V HAS BEEN ESTABLISHEDBY A CIRCLE RADIUS 3NM CENTRED ON 5149N 00054W. TO ENSURE THEIROWN SAFETY AND TO AVOID INTERFERENCE WITH CONTROL AND SARACTIVITIES, PILOTS ARE URGENTLY REQUESTED NOT TO FLY IN OR NEAR THEAREA WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF AERONAUTICAL RESCUE AND COORDINATIONCENTRE (EMERGENCY CONTROLLING AUTHORITY) TELEPHONE 01343 836001 /01343836002. PILOTS ARE FURTHER WARNED THAT ACTION MAY BE TAKEN ATANY TIME TO IMPOSE RESTRICTIONS OF FLYING REGULATIONS UNDER ARTICLE239 OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2016. ATC UNITS CLOSE TO THEINCIDENT AREA ARE REQUESTED TO ADVISE AIRCRAFT ON THEIR FREQUENCIESOF THE CONTENTS OF THIS NOTAM.LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 3000FT AMSL

[AlexJT]

I think Rattle meant in the sense that it has been unbelievably clear today. I thought this morning it would be a great day for flying. Shame it’s not ended too great for some, by the sounds of it.

[ShyTorque]

I agree, please do not post "possible" aircraft registrations! What purpose is that thoughtless action supposed to achieve?

I've just received a phone call from a very worried close relative as it is.

[squidie]

Sad news, tracking the news helicopter circling overhead right now. I agree with JJJ best not speculate into what no one knows right now.

[Super VC-10]

Sky news photo shows wreckage of a white helicopter with an enclosed tail rotor.

https://news.sky.com/story/plane-and-helicopter-in-mid-air-collision-in-buckinghamshire-11130285

[RMK]

An aerial news photo just showed the helicopter wreckage; shows a white Fenestron of Eurocopter design.

EDIT:

I just had a second look at the photo (I purposely didn't say EC120 so as to not alarm anyone unnecessarily). It's not a Eurocopter; it's a very similarly-shaped "smaller" helicopter. Sadly, doesn't look good.

[jayteeto]

Don’t over react children. I got what he meant. He was saying poor weather was unlikely to be involved

[Airmotive]

The Mail is confirming G-JAMM

Helicopter and plane collide mid-air in Buckinghamshire | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5093089/Helicopter-plane-crash-mid-air-collision.html)

[Engineless]

Ident of fixed wing aircraft involved clearly visible on BBC News photo (not allowed to post links yet but check out the BBC News website).

Looks like the earlier poster was right. Similarly, the helicopter previously mentioned was crossing the same spot on FR24 and suddenly stopped. Very sad.

[rattle]

Indeed. The first question that seems to get asked on here, or the first opinion points at weather. The visibility today was perfect so it seemed worth mentioning before anybody not local asked or looked it up.

[jayteeto]

BBC photo now shows a photo of the crash site, the aeroplane reg is plain to see

[jellycopter]

The BBC aerial footage is concentrating on the tail section of a Cessna (172?) which appears severed from the fuselage.

[Cows getting bigger]

WACG is a 152. Helicopter is a Cabri.

[dead_pan]

Heli crash site looks very contained from the pics

[RiSq]

A 152, G-WACG was overhead at about the same time, unless it just stayed below coverage altitude for the remainder of its flight
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-wacg#f8efef7
Fingers crossed for survivors

G-WACG Confirmed from photos of paint and now the Reg from overhead.

[Dragol]

From the pictures it looks like a Cabri from Helicopter Services Ltd at Wycombe air park

[AnFI]

It's notamed as a DANGER Area
not a Prohibition nor a Restriction
(the danger being midair collision presumably)

there is a warning PILOTS ARE FURTHER WARNED THAT ACTION MAY BE TAKEN ATANY TIME TO IMPOSE RESTRICTIONS OF FLYING REGULATIONS UNDER ARTICLE239
and a request (understandably) not to overfly

very sad for all concerned

[tmmorris]

BBC reporting midair between a helicopter and Cessna here

Aircraft and helicopter in mid-air crash near Waddesdon - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-42024712)

Thread on Rotorheads here

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/602010-midair-collision-near-waddesdon.html

[Cows getting bigger]

We lost one of the industries gentlemen today.

God speed

[paco]

We sure did. At least I managed to share a cuppa with him yesterday.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A 152, G-WACG was overhead at about the same time, unless it just stayed below coverage altitude for the remainder of its flight
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/g-wacg#f8efef7
Fingers crossed for survivors

I'm afraid that registration is also visible on a photograph on the BBC website. It's a school aeroplane, so tells us nothing about who was on board.

[Bell_ringer]

Fixed wing aircraft have such a limited field of view, you don't want to end up near and beneath one. They will never see you so best to keep far away and to let them know you are around.
Hope they get to see another day, sounds like such a avoidable situation.
Training flights gone wrong?

[piperboy84]

Poor folks, it's sickening how easy this can happen and the enormity of the result.

[Meester proach]

Yes, terrible shame.

I spent hours and hours above this area when instructing from denham and my biggest worry was always a mid air, just simply not seeing another aircraft.

[The Ancient Geek]

Sadly there are occasions when both aircraft are in each others blind spots and there is no chance to see and avoid. In busy uncontrolled airspace the holes in the swiss cheese will eventually line up and a rare unavoidable accident will happen.

[whitelighter]

It's always busy near WCO and I know I've been guilty in the past of paying too much attention to pointing passengers at the Rothschild palace and not enough to a sharp lookout.

Hoping against the odds for a positive outcome.

Well done, you e made it into the Daily Mail.

Is it possible the registration confirmation also came from here with a stock photo?

[Mike Flynn]

Whenever a tragedy such as this occurs there is criticism of the press.

People lose their lives in accidents every day and these are reported with pictures.

Motorway crashes spring to mind.

Increasingly social media often break stories first.

There appears to be a certain group that feel some sort of censorship should be imposed limiting what can be written or broadcast.

I see on another site the usual culprits are out attacking press reports.

[Tay Cough]

Well, if more time were spent by the press on checking accuracy rather than spouting total bolleaux just to be first to break the story and fill some column inches, the criticism would be less well founded.

[Mike Flynn]

Well, if more time were spent by the press on checking accuracy rather than spouting total bolleaux just to be first to break the story and fill some column inches, the criticism would be less well founded.

In which case nothing would be reported until the AAIB report and inquests.

Breaking news is exactly what it says on the tin.

The two aircraft were quickly identified by social media and aerial pictures.

Everyone has access to sites such as Planefinder Flightradar24 and can post screen grabs.

[Local Variation]

Out of interest, what area is defined as the local training area for Booker?

[Duchess_Driver]

Out of interest, what area is defined as the local training area for Booker?

When I learned there 'some time back' we'd work out west towards Westcott, sometimes as far north as Daventry, sometimes southwest over towards Didcot.

See Booker aircraft around WCO frequently so no real reason to suspect it's changed very much.

[BigEndBob]

What's tragic is the money being spent at £4000 a pop to replace perfectly good communications radios that improves safety not one jot, instead of the authorities mandating collision awareness equipment in all aircraft.

[JammedStab]

Isn't the tower closed at Wycomb due to a controller shortage. Was going to go there last week but there was a notam about an ATC closure. Went to Blackbushe instead.

[Tay Cough]

Isn't the tower closed at Wycomb due to a controller shortage. Was going to go there last week but there was a notam about an ATC closure. Went to Blackbushe instead.

Yes it is. It has no bearing on this accident though.

[pasir]

Its many years since I last flew within the Wycombe Airpark area but has always stayed in my memory that the area in those days seemed very much overcrowded with a mass of a/c flying hap hazard in various directions and poor ATC although appreciate may have no bearing on the present tragic event. Nevertheless I made a mental note to avoid flying any where near Wycombe airfield when possible.

[Dan_Brown]

RIP, those poor souls. There but for the grace of God go I.

We are all aware, the first and most import rule of airmanship, is lookout. With this in mind, how are we supposed to fly accurately, for flight test purposes/standards and keep a good lookout? You cant do both to the extent required. Something has to be sacificed. VfR on instruments? These days I get that impression.

Flying training now days seems to be orientated around airline type flying. We are and have been getting away from the basics for sometime. I would rather a student or pilot maintain a better lookout than accuracy in uncontrolled airspace, especially. I have flown with pilots who insist on covering the windscreen with newspaper ASAP after airborne. Some of them, very experienced Captains. How's that for airmanship?

My post does not point the finger at anyone in this case or others. There will always be collisions.

I am not qualified to comment on Helicopters but suffice to add, the visiblity is much greater from a Helicopter.

I am a little surprised to see Accidents and Close calls situated in the Non Airline Forums. Does this mean, "airline" personal aren't exposed to, or interested in the results of human faillings? I do wonder.

[2 sheds]

pasir wrote:
...the area in those days seemed very much overcrowded with a mass of a/c flying hap hazard in various directions and poor ATC although appreciate may have no bearing on the present tragic event.
Particularly as Booker ATC only provides an Aerodrome Control Service, what exactly is your justification for that slur?

2 s

[rsuggitt]

IIRC, both Farnborough North LARS and London Information were unavailable on the day concerned (the Farnborough North LARS still is unavailable as of today).

[B Fraser]

Particularly as Booker ATC only provides an Aerodrome Control Service, what exactly is your justification for that slur?
Seconded. I was a student at Booker and the quality of all staff including ATC, some of whom were ex LHR, was beyond reproach. It was a very busy airfield however IMHO, it prepared you well for encountering busy circuits at other airfields.


Mr Pasir, If you found it haphazard then you didn't prepare sufficiently well before arriving.

[Talkdownman]

Seconded. I was a student at Booker and the quality of all staff including ATC, some of whom were ex LHR, was beyond reproach. It was a very busy airfield however IMHO, it prepared you well for encountering busy circuits at other airfields.


Mr Pasir, If you found it haphazard then you didn't prepare sufficiently well before arriving.
Thirded. The Daily Telegraph also needs reminding that this collision occurred 13 miles outside Wycombe ATC's area of jurisdiction, and that it has no relevance whatsoever. My wife is a DT subscriber. Given half the chance I would cancel it and reduce our expensive trashy recycling.

[JammedStab]

IIRC, both Farnborough North LARS and London Information were unavailable on the day concerned (the Farnborough North LARS still is unavailable as of today).

Is this due to a controller shortage as well?

[ShyTorque]

IIRC, both Farnborough North LARS and London Information were unavailable on the day concerned (the Farnborough North LARS still is unavailable as of today).

I think you might find that the non-availablity of both those agencies occurred after 1700Z.

In any case, neither agency could have provided anything more than a Basic Service. The accident occurred outside the area of responsibility of Farnborough North and London Info cannot give a Traffic Service at any time.

It must be said that the gap in the LARS coverage in the south Midlands seems to get ever larger.

Having checked the NOTAMs for my flights tomorrow I note that it's got larger still because the recently introduced service offered by EMA is not available due to staff shortages! Cranfield airfield is closed due to staff shortages... similarly, Coventry now has no radar service (or any other) either!

[Mike Flynn]

I doubt air traffic services would have prevented this one in a million accident.

Pure fluke just like a driver having a heart attack as you approach his vehicle.

[Crosswind Limits]

I doubt air traffic services would have prevented this one in a million accident.

Pure fluke just like a driver having a heart attack as you approach his vehicle.

I don’t know what the stats are but I reckon it’s much more likely than one in a million!

[pasir]

Thirded. The Daily Telegraph also needs reminding that this collision occurred 13 miles outside Wycombe ATC's area of jurisdiction, and that it has no relevance whatsoever. My wife is a DT subscriber. Given half the chance I would cancel it and reduce our expensive trashy recycling.

>>>

Sorry for any misunderstanding of my post which was NOT intended to be a criticism of any ATC authority but referring to air traffic control among pilots and their aircraft. It was the first time I had flown anywhere near that airfield and the impression gained from the mass of jumbled aircraft flying in all or any direction was reminiscent of a mass bees around a honey pot . I may just have picked a bad day but nevertheless made a mental note to keep well clear of flying in that area in the future. Things may be different and greatly improved today but that was my experience years ago. My apologies for upsetting those concerned.

[Duchess_Driver]

It must be said that the gap in the LARS coverage in the south Midlands seems to get ever larger.

Oxford Radar 127.750 provide a more than efficient LARS service - perhaps too efficient at times. That doesn't change the fact that it is uncontrolled airspace and you don't have to talk to anybody if you don't want to.

[2 sheds]

pasir

Understood that you did not mean to imply criticism of any ATC unit, but it's rather confusing when you then refer to "air traffic control among pilots and their aircraft"!

As for the mass of jumbled aircraft flying in ... any direction = class G with a few other people doing what you were doing! Why is that a bad day?

2 s

[Jimmy5616]

IIRC, both Farnborough North LARS and London Information were unavailable on the day concerned (the Farnborough North LARS still is unavailable as of today).

This statement is incorrect. Both agencies were available at the time of this accident.

As mentioned the NOTAM'd closure of Farnborough North was after 17.00 and the London Info closures are after midnight.

[ShyTorque]

Oxford Radar 127.750 provide a more than efficient LARS service - perhaps too efficient at times. That doesn't change the fact that it is uncontrolled airspace and you don't have to talk to anybody if you don't want to.

Yes, I've used Oxford before. However official responsibility for LARS for that area is covered by Brize and the gap lies further east

[rsuggitt]

This statement is incorrect. Both agencies were available at the time of this accident.

As mentioned the NOTAM'd closure of Farnborough North was after 17.00 and the London Info closures are after midnight.

I accept the correction ! Though I will say that I think that the NOTAM was worded in a misleading way (for simple folk like me, anyway).

[Jimmy5616]

I will say that I think that the NOTAM was worded in a misleading way (for simple folk like me, anyway).

I would agree with that. Especially in the context that a pre flight list of NOTAMS affecting even a short route runs to many pages.

[rans6andrew]

the USAF have the answer to collision avoidance.

Fighter pilots told 'keep windscreens clean' to avoid crashes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-42063835)

Sorted!

Rans6.......................

[Dan_Brown]

Any cropdusting pilot worth his salt even decades ago, could have told them that.

A dirty bug spattered windscreen, especially flying into the direction of the sun can be a ticket to eternity in that business.

[The Old Fat One]

I am a little surprised to see Accidents and Close calls situated in the Non Airline Forums. Does this mean, "airline" personal aren't exposed to, or interested in the results of human faillings? I do wonder.

Dan, this is an anomaly/peculiarity of the GA forum (and an extremely poor one at that). Military accidents are in the military forum, ditto commercial ones, ditto rotorheads. The same format should apply to GA, and some would argue the rationale behind having your accident discussions right in the eyeballs of the relevant flying community (as opposed to a sub-forum) would be even more important in GA.

...and it also serves to confuse as your comment and plenty of other dual threads/posts demonstrate.

Time this anomaly is fixed imo.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Seems some are determined to miss the point: One stop collation at a single point whether running live or moved over after the fact.

The forums you praise are actually the cause of this forum. Reams of information lost through the tyranny of time and the slipping down through the pages so quickly. Final reports get even more lost, more quickly as they only generate shorter threads to get lost in the cracks. 20+ years of archives demonstrate this time and again.

Rob

[aox]

the USAF have the answer to collision avoidance.

Fighter pilots told 'keep windscreens clean' to avoid crashes - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-42063835)

Sorted!

Rans6.......................

Years ago the USAF devoted significant effort to telling us they might not be looking where they were going

The F-111 was badly fenestrated.

Hence the Heyford radio area.

[mary meagher]

Invited to visit ATC at Upper Heyford, long ago, when Americans were running the place...they kindly demonstrated what their equipment could transmit.
It depended on the settings....they could actually see EVERY CAR AND TRUCK on the M40! And certainly any aircraft above 50 feet, whatever.

But the day that they dreaded was good gliding weather when gliding competitions were taking place. Talk about crowded skies? twenty or thirty returns in one thermal?

Power pilots, stay home, or practice your night flying!

[The Old Fat One]

Seems some are determined to miss the point:

Tad unconstructive no? I used to authorise aviators for a living...hence my knowledge of all things flight safety is (or perhaps was) of some merit???

I well understand the merits of having a specialised "accidents" sub forum. And indeed the demerits of such. I also understand the merits of having an organised, clear and structured forum, where everybody knows where everything is and everything goes.

Plenty of posts I have seen would suggest, you are not quite there yet.

But hey, it's your train set...do what you want, you will anyway.