Qantas RAAF

[P2bleed]

Heard a rumour today that Qantas were going to review their intake of RAAF pilots?

[bafanguy]

Heard a rumour today that Qantas were going to review their intake of RAAF pilots?

With an eye to what ? Hiring more of 'em...fewer ? Status of the ones they've already got ?

[IsDon]

I spent many years in the RAAF and many in QANTAS. One thing has always happened every time that QANTAS has recruited. The RAAF HR morons finally realise that they haven’t planned for attrition and get caught with their collective pants down. It’s as predictable as night and day. Also predictably they run crying to Qantas and blame them for their predicament and beg them to leave their pilots alone.

Well, it’s happened again.

RAAF (don’t know who) met with Qantas (HOBO and HR) earlier this week. The Chief Pilot confirmed to the new starters this week that Qantas will be a “good corporate citizen in not decimating the RAAF numbers all at once”.

My analysis is what this means in reality is that we will limit the number of ex RAAF pilots in any intake. IE We won’t take 10 RAAFies in a 12 pilot intake one month and then another 10 the next. We are more likely to still take those 20 but only over (say) 5 months rather than two.

Maybe Qantas have agreed to not more than a particular percentage per intake? Who would know. At the end of the day we need pilots and so I expect being a good corporate citizen only goes so far when you’re about to start grounding jets through lack of crew.

One things certain. The RAAF HR morons are even more hopeless than our HR morons.

Qantas HR morons don't realise it takes 2 months to convert a pilot from one type to another, more for a promotional course. Hence the maximum divisors.

The RAAF HR morons can't fathom it takes 18 months, minimum, to train a pilot off the street. Another 3-4 months for conversion. More for a knucklehead. They still think they can take them off the street and have them piloting an F18 overnight. After all that's all it takes it their world. Add to that their insistence in quotas of female candidates while rejecting male candidates purely on sexist policies and is it any wonder they’re in a pickle.

I’d be telling them to get stuffed if I were Qantas HR.

[cooperplace]

you gotta hand it to HR: they somehow manage to paint themselves as indispensable, when in fact they are completely useless.

[exfocx]

yeah, don't know what the RAAF HR are thinking if they think they can get women to fly aircraft, ****!

[IsDon]

yeah, don't know what the RAAF HR are thinking if they think they can get women to fly aircraft, ****!

Don’t let this thread degenerate into another affirmative action slanging match.

If you knew anything about the RAAFs policy in this matter though you wouldn’t make such a comment.

Kindly keep to the subject.

[Wizofoz]

Without wishing to start a thread drift, do females have a higher scub rate in the RAAF?

[IsDon]

Without wishing to start a thread drift, do females have a higher scub rate in the RAAF?

No, I don’t think so. Not historically anyway.

There are less of them because there are less recruited. There are less recruited because there are less interested in the job in the first place.

Women make as good a pilot as men, no question.

Now. Back on topic.

[Slezy9]

Apparently almost 1/2 the RAAF QFI's out of ROSO (mostly at the SQNs not at the Schools) have yes letters, just waiting for starts!

Some even with ROSO but that's another story!

[dr dre]

My analysis is what this means in reality is that we will limit the number of ex RAAF pilots in any intake. IE We won’t take 10 RAAFies in a 12 pilot intake one month and then another 10 the next. We are more likely to still take those 20 but only over (say) 5 months rather than two.

I don't think it's that much. Asking around it looks like roughly only one or two ex military guys on a course atm. Most of the new starts seem to be from within the group, other airlines, cadets or GA. I'd guess no more than 10% are ex-RAAF.

Besides if that theory's true and they have to wait a few months to get a start is it that big of a deal? I know about relative seniority but there's thousands of qualified pilots out there who want the job, they'll just have to wait in line like everyone else.

[IsDon]

True.

The other fly in the ointment is the requirement to give 3 months notice.

In my time a lot of RAAFies faced with a hold file letter from Qantas would resign immediately so they were available at short notice should Qantas call.

You might find a lot of these guys have done just that. Resigning en masses would certainly send a shock wave through the establishment.

[ruprecht]

RAAF recruiting is, and has always been, 180 degrees out of phase with demand.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Without wishing to start a thread drift, do females have a higher scub rate in the RAAF?

Yes.

At the moment anyway.

[junior.VH-LFA]

The squadrons have been hurting for people lately, considering that they’re bringing in ROSO for conversions now just to hold onto people it isn’t looking any better.

[Stationair8]

Been a few companies that have had a whinge to Qantas HR about pinching to many pilots, over the years.

Know a guy that missed out a job with a NSW based regional airline, company he was leaving whinged about all the money they had spent endorsing on a turboprop. Fortunately for him he got into Ansett a few months later.

[mrdeux]

Has increasing ROSO ever worked for them. I know of a number of people who walked out of conversion courses when they suddenly attracted an obligation that they hadn't had previously. It brought their departure dates forward, not the other way around.

Equally, I wonder if it has ever been tested in court. The application has always been haphazard.

[Slezy9]

Equally, I wonder if it has ever been tested in court. The application has always been haphazard.

Ask the RAAF pilot who was recently court marshaled and sentenced to jail for leaving while under ROSO!

[junior.VH-LFA]

Ask the RAAF pilot who was recently court marshaled and sentenced to jail for leaving while under ROSO!

The fact that people are willing to risk that speaks volumes though...

[swh]

Ask the RAAF pilot who was recently court marshaled and sentenced to jail for leaving while under ROSO!

Would that count as a criminal conviction that would prevent them from holding an ASIC ?

[Chronic Snoozer]

The RAAF HR morons can't fathom it takes 18 months, minimum, to train a pilot off the street. Another 3-4 months for conversion. More for a knucklehead. They still think they can take them off the street and have them piloting an F18 overnight.

Turn it up mate! Name one HR 'moron' you know that thinks that. What are they supposed to do? I know its reactionary but you can't blame HR for speaking with QANTAS to slow the exodus - its obviously so they have a chance to train guys to fill the coming shortfall. Fair enough too I'd say. One thing has always happened every time that QANTAS has recruited. The RAAF HR morons finally realise that they haven’t planned for attrition and get caught with their collective pants down. I'm no fan of the RAAFs personnel management but its pretty difficult to screen, recruit and train in anticipation of QANTAS recruiting. Correct me if I'm wrong but its unlikely that QANTAS tells the RAAF anything of its recruitment plans. Same thing happened in 87-88. However, I've always been of a mind that the RAAF suffers from a retention problem not a recruitment problem so if anything the 'HR morons' are looking at the wrong end of the career spectrum.

[bafanguy]

One thing has always happened every time that QANTAS has recruited. The RAAF HR morons finally realise that they haven’t planned for attrition and get caught with their collective pants down. It’s as predictable as night and day. Also predictably they run crying to Qantas and blame them for their predicament and beg them to leave their pilots alone.

I’d be telling them to get stuffed if I were Qantas HR.

IsDon,

Remarkable similarity to how the USA does it. There's a thread in Ts&E where I've posted a running series of articles about the plight of the USAF in particular. They've formed USAF-airline panels and committees to "study" a solution.

None is forthcoming yet; I predict none will be.

I'd bet money the airlines here are thinking what you say in the last sentence above. All very entertaining.

[SonofCoco]

Correct me if I'm wrong but its unlikely that QANTAS tells the RAAF anything of its recruitment plans.

Agree with most of you post CS, but well before external apps openend I heard that there was indeed formal communication of the impending recruitment drive and that ADF aircrew would be targeted among the mix of recruits. As a matter of courtesy.

[ryano]

Don't ask me to feel sorry for any of the muppets in career and personnel management. These problems are entirely of their own doing. Guys that joined from 2010 onwards are on a pay scheme that has them earning massively less each year then their mates that joined prior. Add in the various retention schemes (MSBS ect) that they can't be a part of either and you're talking about a pay differential of 30-40% (depending on rank). T&Cs have gone only one way globally, yet in the ADF they've gone backwards. The majors commenced recruiting more than a year ago, what has HR done to prevent the wholesale destruction of its workforce? Let's not even get started on the recruiting issues they have. The ADF has become a stepping stone, not a career.

[Keg]

I'm no fan of the RAAFs personnel management but its pretty difficult to screen, recruit and train in anticipation of QANTAS recruiting. Correct me if I'm wrong but its unlikely that QANTAS tells the RAAF anything of its recruitment plans. Same thing happened in 87-88.

I don't know whether there was direct talks initially but QF certainly telegraphed it's intention to recruit when they announced the 787 order championing the 170 new pilots they'd need.

Now we're likely to take on significantly more than 170 given the increased hours on all fleets but the notice was there. We actually started recruiting about 9 months later.

[ruprecht]

I predict there will be yet another survey to determine why RAAF pilots are leaving.
RAAF recruiting will ramp up.
The airlines will stop recruiting.
There will be a surplus of RAAF pilots.
RAAF recruiting will slow down.
Airline recruiting will ramp up.
RAAF pilots will leave.

There will be another survey... :hmm:

[ruprecht]

The ADF has become a stepping stone, not a career.

"The RAAF, a better start to your career."

Wasn't that the recruiting slogan in the 90's? :D

[patty50]

Why would anyone want to join the RAAF?

I can think of one solitary young pilot or wannabe out of many many I’ve met who considered Air Force who is now doing a cadetship anyway.

Shocking these people want to turn the defence force into a social experiment then wonder why people aren’t keen on joining or staying.

[josephfeatherweight]

patty, I don't understand what you're saying?

[donpizmeov]

When you finally understand how MSBS works you have to wonder why anyone would want to leave the RAAF. The grass is not always greener. Airline flying is doing the same hour of flying over and over and over again. It would even make C130 flying look exciting.

[dr dre]

When you finally understand how MSBS works you have to wonder why anyone would want to leave the RAAF. The grass is not always greener. Airline flying is doing the same hour of flying over and over and over again. It would even make C130 flying look exciting.

Well if that’s your attitude can you please save us all the hassle and stay in the Air Force. Plenty of young civilian trained pilots who’s career dream is to become airline captains who wouldn’t find it boring at all. At least they’ll appreciate the opportunity they have been given.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Airline flying is doing the same hour of flying over and over and over again. It would even make C130 flying look exciting.

Mmmm, never thought of it that way flying Hercs around New Guinea.

[cessnapete]

Same with RAF over here in UK. Poor pay compared to airlines, away accommodation substandard, poor scheduling, and aircrew shortages appearing.
A relative of mine a Transport Capt., converted to the Voyager A330 Tanker /Transport couple of years ago.The conversion training here done by a civilian contractor with ex airline trainers, to the Airbus civil standard syllabus. On completion of the RAF conversion, if you complete the ALTP exams you get issued with the Airbus A330/350 Civil type rating.
Quite an incentive to leave the RAF.
British Airways in the last year or so has had a large recruitment programme 300+ new entrants. My relative straight onto the BA A380, with on day one a higher salary. And more of her RAF colleagues with heavy jet experience, onto the B744/777/787,
A no brainer , and big problem for RAF retention.

[ruprecht]

Well if that’s your attitude can you please save us all the hassle and stay in the Air Force. Plenty of young civilian trained pilots who’s career dream is to become airline captains who wouldn’t find it boring at all. At least they’ll appreciate the opportunity they have been given.

Mmmm, never thought of it that way flying Hercs around New Guinea.

2 bites with the one bait.

Nice work don...

[donpizmeov]

Thanks ruprecht, I do try my best. I hope you are doing well.

I stand by it though, if I known back then what I know now, my choice would have been different.

dr dre, I understand what you are saying. It is a shame some of these guys will never know what flying without an autopilot is all about.

Chronic Snoozer, I guess you mean that dreaded Madang approach? Real PNG flying was done by that tactically flown, radial powered twin :)

[Chronic Snoozer]

Chronic Snoozer, I guess you mean that dreaded Madang approach? Real PNG flying was done by that tactically flown, radial powered twin :)

Yeah, the one without autopilot.

[SonofCoco]

When you finally understand how MSBS works you have to wonder why anyone would want to leave the RAAF. The grass is not always greener. Airline flying is doing the same hour of flying over and over and over again. It would even make C130 flying look exciting.

MSBS is indeed a generous scheme. For me it was a choice between desk jobs, PERS management and politics for the last 20 years of my career or keep flying in an airline without all of that stuff and have some more time to enjoy life. RAAF flying was very good and exciting but it just does not last.

[Tazrat737]

MSBS is indeed a generous scheme. For me it was a choice between desk jobs, PERS management and politics for the last 20 years of my career or keep flying in an airline without all of that stuff and have some more time to enjoy life. RAAF flying was very good and exciting but it just does not last.

100% agree with you mate! I was more than happy to leave an MSBS retention benefit and the super scheme itself on the table to come over civvy side. I have far more time for family fun, RAAF reserve work on the side and a chance to learn from the guys and girls who have done the GA / regional work prior to coming to mainline. It makes for a far better work life balance (oh the irony :O )


The idea of 20 years of desk jobs, politics and moving the family just isn't sustainable for most. Do what suits your circumstances, but mainline has proven to be a bloody good landing spot so far. As for the potential new pay deal in defence , there could be some large ramifications to MSBS $$. Awas the finance dept good ideas fairies!!

Good luck to all running the DP gauntlet

[josephfeatherweight]

It makes for a far better work life balance (oh the irony)
Yes, the RAAF spruiked on about the importance of a work/life balance and did little to convince me that they really gave a rat's about it...
But, on the whole, it was good for 15-odd years!
I think that any concerted efforts by the RAAF to stifle the outflow of pilots by making "deals" with airlines, will only have the effect of pi$$ing off those who are considering leaving anyway and may well encourage them!

[rodney rude]

Hey Dr Dre - if you knew Donpizmeov and what he has done in his career you would probably retract your comments. He is more than qualified to comment and in my view, he is spot on. Why I ever left the RAAF is beyond me. But I probably would put it down to lack of education on the super scheme. There are contemparies of mine leaving the RAAF now, in early 50s on a very good retirment income - 6 figures plus. Sure guys want to keep flying, but some of us are humble enough to admit in hindsight that the world of long days and long night sectors on the autopilot isnt the land of milk and honey we thought it to be.

BUT - each to their own, works for some, not for others. Each is entitled to their own view, and their own decision.

[ruprecht]

Why I ever left the RAAF is beyond me.

It's called nostalgia, and it ain't what it used to be... :)

[Alistair]

Real PNG flying was done by that tactically flown, radial powered twin

Sure about that? I'd politely beg to differ and say that the real PNG flying was done by the 20 something kid in the 206 or Bongo van. You blokes were just tourists.

[Slezy9]

Sure about that? I'd politely beg to differ and say that the real PNG flying was done by the 20 something kid in the 206 or Bongo van. You blokes were just tourists.

Why does someone have to always turn every thread into military v civil...

[junior.VH-LFA]

Sure about that? I'd politely beg to differ and say that the real PNG flying was done by the 20 something kid in the 206 or Bongo van. You blokes were just tourists.



C'mon mate, whip it out and lets have a look. :ugh:

[Chronic Snoozer]

Why I ever left the RAAF is beyond me.

The idea of 20 years of desk jobs, politics and moving the family just isn't sustainable for most.

Swings, green grass, 6 of one......

[Turbine Overheat]

MSBS is now a closed scheme
Anyone joining after 2016 is on a standard accumulation scheme ie almost identical to most civil employers. Albeit some slight difference on contribution rates

[layman]

Slezy9

probably for one of three reasons:

1. they are stirring the pot, or

2. (most likely) they don't know, they don't know, or

3. they're trolls and can safely be ignored (not that you'd get any people like that on pprune).

Chronic Snoozer has probably got it right

Stating the 'bleeding' obvious, there are good (and some not so good) pilots, jobs, conditions, 'everywhere'

regards
layman

[Professional Amateur]

There is a fair bit of nostalgic thought here about the RAAF with lament about even leaving in the first place. There was a pretty good reason to leave back then and I can confirm that the good old days are well and truly gone.
The ADF wasn’t the place you joined and your life outlook had changed….. since then I can confirm that the two have likely diverged even further.

Add to this less flying, ROSOs for captaincy, significantly lower pay(25-30%) since the 2009 pay determination all whilst maintaining the same flying standards.... not to mention longer ROSOs and IMPS on sign up ……unless you are female where it is only one year (the good women I know hate this because it utterly devalues their hard work!).

As a side note I know guys who had received their letter of offer one day apart leading to a 25-30% pay difference.... the irony is the guy who is on the poorer pay finished course first and is now in a position with far more responsibility..... yet another nail in the coffin for a lot of people.

There is good reason guys/girls are leaving - knowing your schedule more than 24 hours out, spending less time away (but flying more), actually having career progression, not being posted continually, partners can only take so much.
Guys and girls I know are near burnt out before they even reach the Sqns.
…..Or you could just take a cadetdship with a guaranteed job at the end, significant less work, significantly less stress, certainty for your family, no prospect of a desk job, all whilst being on the seniority list.

As a closing remark to those who wish they never left..... the ADF is different now and it wouldn't be very hard to get back in at all with the new SERCAT system, so the option is there to put your toe back it......... DO IT, I dare you! You'd would be the fortunate ones by being on the Fly scheme AND MSBS ……..or even OASS.

[rodney rude]

Professional Amatuer

Very interesting comments. I do hear guys saying its not like it used to be. But I know that when I joined in the 80s, guys were saying its not like it was in the 70s. So maybe its just a continual decline. But one's tolerance to rubbish changes over the years, in some ways it improves, and in some ways it declines. I know back in my junior officer days, if I had to sit in a class room all day and listen to some bluntie pissing on about EEO, OH&S, gender equality, white ribbons, etc etc, I would have been whining like a hungry cat. Nowadays I'd be sitting up the back half asleep saying if you want to pay me good money to sit here and listen to this ****, well that's fine by me.

I'm sure I'm deluded and have the rose colored glasses firmly in place - but there's two realities for me, 1. I don't live near a base and I ain't moving again, and 2. Too many warnings about how its changed for me to ignore.

I think all of my vintage and before must sit happy with the fact that we were so lucky to be in when we were and enjoy the fact that we really had soooooo much fun

[ruprecht]

Don't forget the suicide prevention lectures, Rodney!

Maybe be the RAAF needs to realise that not everyone who wants to fly their aircraft wants to be a future one star. Some people just want a job, rather than a career. I would have been SNCO pilot if they had have let me.

WOFF pilot, how good would that be... :cool:

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Defence hasn't really sold service as a career for a long time. It's just a job to them too. https://airforce.defencejobs.gov.au/?ci=0 They realize most people don't want to join up for ever now, and advertise accordingly

[cessnapete]

Same retention problems here with RAF. Last year or two British Airways for example, had a large recruitment progaramme 300 plus. Any military transport pilots joining with heavy jet experience (zero flight time requirements after sim) joined direct onto 744/787/777/A380..FJ etc onto A320 requiring Base Training.